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« Rage, Concern, and Opinions for Hire | Main | Rent-a-Government »

18 July 2010

Comments

Steven Frisch

Well I think this just about says it all. It is the David Duke defense--the language is imprecise, the stereotypes are usually true, if we only have that to judge on then it is accurate, its all relative to what individual defines race and racism, parts of science are on my side--I swear Africans CAN jump higher and Jews are better with money!--it not me, I swear, I AM NOT a racist!

Steven Frisch

By the way, who is the picture of?

Is it a United Colors of Benetton ad? ....or is it the winners of the Sierra Environmental Studies Foundation TechTest 2010?

D. King

Sherman! Set the Wayback machine to the 1960’s

You need to engage your flux-capacitor and come
back to the future…Mc Fly

RL Crabb

Well, I just spent an hour writing a response to this item and when I went to post it, I got "we cannot accept this data." Any suggestions on where I went wrong?

George Rebane

Bob, I've had that happen to me also; it seems that TypePad times you out after a while. I always compose longer comments and posts in my favorite text editor (e.g. Word), and then paste it into the post or comment box. That way I always have a copy until I see that the system accepts my input. On TypePad, when I have received such a notice, shutting down the webpage and restarting it usually clears it up and allows you to paste in what you have written.

If you still have a problem, email me your comment and I'll post it appropriately. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Todd Juvinall

I would say judging from Frisch's response that he has unmasked the real racist. And it isn't George. Mirror needed?

RL Crabb

I've been called a racist more times than I can count. The latest was implied when I chose to defend a statement on another blog, being told that I "missed the freedom train" and that I was basically out of touch with current attitudes.

I certainly have seen enough of it in my life. Back in 1978, I had a conversation with my grandfather about politics and race came up. Gramps said that he never hurt anyone, but if a certain group got "uppity" he and his friends would caution them to hold their tongues. I suspected he had ties to the klan, and at my mother's funeral a few years ago I asked my uncles about it. One of them confirmed my suspicions, the other was shocked and had no idea that his dad was a terrorist.

I did a strip about it when the Village Idiot was running daily. I did it as a conversation between myself and Gramp's ghost. Since ghosts are usually portrayed with white sheets, I went that route, except I gave him a pointed head. The object was to confront my Grandfather's (and my own) sins. It caused a ruckus and prompted a call from the editor.

Things were different in Gramp's day. Racism was an accepted way of life in much of the country. As Glenn Beck likes to point out, Woodrow Wilson was an extreme racist. When I was growing up, my parents used the "n" word frequently. Dad's middle name was Wilson, after Woody, although for different reasons than his prejudices. Ironically, during Mom's final years, she had two black doctors, and it was never a problem.

In 1972, I moved to the deep south. Things had changed from the sixties. Everyone ate together, worked together and played together. There were still remnants of the old south, like Lt. Gov. Lester Maddox's little shop where he sold autographed axe handles, a throwback to the days when he ran blacks out of his restaurant. But still, it was quite different than the images we saw on TV only ten years earlier of dogs and hoses and nightsticks.

We still have a ways to go. Along the way it is important to remember that labels are a form of racism in itself, and when we conveniently label someone a racist because we disagree with them politically, we are in danger of repeating the very sin we seek to expunge. A new McCarthyism.

Todd Juvinall

Sorry about the caps, I wasn't looking and am too lazy to retype.

RL, I couldn't agree more with you. When I grew up here we were not a diverse county regarding race. My parents never talked race or called other races names so I did not get "taught" something I had to be "untaught". I moved to Socal in 1971 and worked with my hands along side many other races. I discovered they all wanted what I wanted, to get ahead! We were fast friends and none of us talked race because it was not relevant to our lives and friendships with each other. When I did better and became a manager of 50 employees, I promoted people on merit, attitude and likability. Guess what? Other races were promoted. I don't look through the prism of race and I am unapologetic about that fact. I do tire though of self hating people who do. Since we are still a county that is 95% Caucasian, I would be interested to know how the liberals claim some sort of moral high ground about raCE AND POINT FINGERS AT OTHERS. fOR INSTANCE, fRISCH, CLAIMS SOME SORT OF HIGH GROUND YET HAS NOT GIVEN US THE BREAKDOWN OF THE RACES IN HIS OWN non profit ORGANIZATION. I WOULD SUSPECT SINCE 95% OF THE county is white that he has 95% white. anyway, I find the liberals are the true racists and the conservatives are just simple plain opportunity lovers.

John Costello

The whole idea of 'race' is filled with so many different traps it's really not worth discussing. Back in the 1890s the Irish were a 'race,' as I suppose were the Estonians and Italians and Germans and French and English. Academic anthropologists lumped all whites together (eg Queen Elizabeth and Ghandi)and cut the number down to nine and then three and then decided the whole idea was a delusion because it was such a hot topic. Of course everyone still seem to obsess about it.

George Rebane

Well said JohnC. The semantic precision of 'racist' has been destroyed, even if such precision ever existed. Today it is used by charlatans and political opportunists as a weapon to score points with the unthinking.

D. King

Well said John. The idea of race does however
make an excellent and unfortunate tool for those
wishing to manipulate. The really sad part about
what is happening now, is that the very people
being manipulated, are the ones who will be used
as a tool to reduce their own liberty.

RL Crabb

Just because the label is overused doesn't mean that there aren't racists in the Republican/Tea Party ranks. The Sac Bee has an article today about racists trying to recruit their way into the movement, and the motivational speaker at your own recent Tea Party event just got kicked out for a fictitious letter that was clearly over the line. I wouldn't get too smug about liberals being the only racists.

Steve Frisch

I love this--let me see if I understand the point, because you know according to George and Jeff I am an idiot--you can't be racists because races don't exist!


Russ Steele

Several individuals have been asked to leave Tea Party Rallies for having racist signs. VP Biden admits that it is only a few individuals that are causing the problem at some rallies.

Mark Meckler and Jenny Beth Martin, co-founders of Tea Party Patriots.

“At Tea Party Patriots we will continue to condemn the fringe elements of the movement and any expression of racism or bigotry."

I think the left is just using the racist charges to label the Tea Party so that people of color will shun the organization, as it has a lot of appeal to all American's who support freedom and individual responsibility regardless of skin color.

Jeff Pellne

Just FYI:

http://jeffpelline.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/sacramento-tea-party-leader-ousted-in-racism-row/

George Rebane

Often commenters allow themselves to get very creative about what they take away from the original post. Some so they can expand the discussion, and others so that they can better direct their indignation and holy wrath at the clay pigeons they fashion and launch. While it is great sport to shoot clay pigeons, the careful reader will not confuse this with debating the real thing.

Russ Steele

Jeff,

Naked self promotion how unbecoming. You used to rejected this kind of self promotion out right when editor at The Union. My, my how the screw has turned.

You quoted only part of what I wrote above, ignoring what Mark and Jenny Beth, founders of the TTP, wrote in the Politico Op-Ed. They have condemned any expression of racism. They problem is that multiple tea parties have developed, the Tea Party Express is run by a Republican Consultant. It is not part of the local Tea Party Patriots, nor was Mark Williams a member of the Tea Party Patriots, even though he was one of the MCs at the Nevada County Tea Party Launch. Since then the TPP has been distancing themselves from Mark Williams and the TP Express.

Your broad brush attempt to paint all TPP members as being tainted by the presence of Mark Williams at our very first rally is despicable. He had not yet committed his unfortunate act of racism. So, now we are all post guilty. How unfortunate, no how stupid!

Jeff Pellne

Russ,
Hold on. It's not "naked self promotion;" it's holding up a mirror. You promoted the guy as a "motivational speaker" in your blog post, and you took his picture. " A nice gathering of neighbors," your friend George wrote about the event. Williams spoke here as part of a locally organized gathering. It's a fact. What do you have to say for yourself? Nothing. Instead, you attack me. That is despicable — and telling. I have vowed never to post on this blog, given the physical threats made toward me by your regular posters. But I cannot let this assault go unanswered.

Steven Frisch

Why would someone even be attracted to coming to a Tea Party rally with a racist sign? Its nor like its common to just make up a racist sign is it? I mean what kind of person is it that does not notice that when they are drawing a picture of our President they draw him with triple sized lips? It must be subconscious huh?

I mean do you see racist signs at the Republican National Convention? I don't remember ever having to tell anyone not to bring a racist sign to a football game. They seem to get John 3:16 right, but I don't see any oversized signs with black men with, how did George put it on his site, "the arrangement of the gluteus maximus muscles of certain ‘black’ guys is a hell of a lot better for jumping than those of ‘white’ guys.

How about an anti-war rally? A grateful dead concert?

No, sorry guys, but this about the people you attract. You use language that spreads fear about 'losing our country', 'real Americans' and 'losing our culture' and you attract people that respond to that sort of nonsense. And many of them are racists. Then you have to go around and try to get rid of people that embarrass you.

You bring it on yourselves, then claim that the left is responsible for, "labeling the Tea Party so that people of color will shun the organization".

Its your cesspool boys. Enjoy the swim.

Todd Juvinall

Russ and George, don't take the bait from these hypocrites. They are using the Sal Alinsky playbook. They are just amateurs and can't even do justice to their great socialist revolutionary. Mark Williams promoted a parody, poorly done and the Tea Party booted him. These liberals here want to try and taint the movement because they are the antithesis of freedom. Don't get in a fight with a dog that his fleas. BTW, I'd like to see the guest lists of these liberals. But of course, they would deny everything.

D.King

Here you go Steven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYfmShJe5MA

You must be so proud.

Jeff Pellne

Todd,
I am a moderate and have voted for Republicans (including Ronald Reagan) and Democrats over the years. When it comes to politics, I am pragmatic, not an ideaologue. Thanks.

Russ Steele

The Tea Party keeps growing and growing in the Sierra. Obama's ratings keep falling, House race polls indicate Republicans are with reach of a turn over, California Senate is now a toss up, and you guys are getting more shrill. LOL.

Jeff Pellne

Russ,
I have no problems if the Republicans win the House or if Fiornia beats Boxer. Let the chips fall where they may. I do have a problem with racism, however, including racism in our community. We moved to the Sierra to raise our son in a different environment than the one I see more and more often.

Russ Steele

Outside the Beltway:

In a sign that the Obama Administration is unwilling to associate it self with the “Tea Party = Racism” discussion that the NAACP started last week, Vice-President Biden said this morning that he did not believe it was true:
“Do you think elements of the Tea Party are racist?” This Week anchor Jake Tapper asked Vice President Joe Biden in an EXCLUSIVE interview. Biden equivocated at first, but then settled on a pretty firm no.
“Well, the truth is that at least elements that were involved in some of the Tea Party folks expressed racist views,” he said.
“I wouldn’t characterize the Tea Party as racist. There are individuals who are either members of or on the periphery of some of their things, their — their protests — that have expressed really unfortunate comments.
(…)
“I don’t believe, the president doesn’t believe that the Tea Party is — is a racist organization. I don’t believe that,” Biden said. “Very conservative. Very different views on government and a whole lot of things. But it is not a racist organization.”

Russ Steele

Jeff,

How many of the TPP events have you attended? None? One? More than two. Have never attended on how do you know what goes on at the, rallies the luncheons, the wine tasting?

Jeff Pellne

Russ,
I, for one, fully agree that the Tea Party "is not a racist organization." Whoever said it was? But it has racist and intolerant elements that have gone unchecked, including the speakers like Williams in our community and protestors at parades. http://jeffpelline.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/tea-potty-mouth-revisited-in-light-of-williams-ouster/

RL Crabb asked some very legitimate questions about what else the Tea Party believes in that were never answered.

I would like our public officals (including McClintock, who attended last summer's rally, to speak out against any racism). I think it would be a real plus for the community.

I also hope the local media explores the issue as well, rather than sweep it under the rug.

Steven Frisch

Bullhockey--tea party leaders intentionally use dog whistle messages to send racial messages in order to attract their clientele. Biden and the President are wrong, or they are pragmatic. They know the TPP are racists, but why start a race debate in an America that is only two generations from widespread lynching and one generation up from attack dogs? All that would serve to do is empower the race baiters.

Steven Frisch

Still wondering George, where did the picture come from? Is it a group of young people you work with regularly? They look so happy. Are they on a mission with your church? Looks like a tropical location. Or did you download a picture of happy smiling diverse youth from the web? Just curious.

Martin Light

Just an FYI: http://www.marktalk.com/blog/?p=10441

Todd Juvinall

Frisch, you are the leader, paid at least, of a non profit in Truckee, is that right? What are the demographics of your organization? I am always amused at race baiters who move to the whitest county in California then complain about "lack of "diversity". I have heard people like you since the SF Chronicle did some stories 20 years ago about the very same topic. I would say you have zero credibility on this issue since you could have moved anywhere in the country and practiced what you are supposedly preaching. Nevada County doesn't need race baiters, it is a simple, peaceful place.

Todd Juvinall

Martin, I just read Mark Williams speech and I see his point. There seems to be a lack of outrage against the Black Panthers by the NAACP and them calling for the murder of white babies while they condemn his parody. The race baiters on this thread have not called for the NAACP to condemn the panthers, why do you think that?

Russ Steele

Black man defends the Tea Party at the American Thinker, I have bolded the important paragraph.


As far as Democrats, the Obama administration, and the liberal mainstream media are concerned, Obama's race trumps everything.

In a blatant assault on our free speech as Americans, for the first time in U.S. history, we have a president of whom any criticism, satire, and negative portrayals will be attacked as racist. Offenders are denounced, shunned, and defamed by Obama's Enforcers, the liberal mainstream media.

Falling into the defensive trap, some Tea Party leaders have suggested that we change our name. They say, "The term "Tea Party" has become so negative." The liberal mainstream media is going to trash us no matter what we call ourselves, even if we change our name to the "Happy Go Lucky Really Nice People" movement.

News flash! The goal of the liberal mainstream media is to "crush" the Tea Party Movement. Obama is their guy. The liberal mainstream media's unprecedented protection of Obama during the election, skipping the usual vetting process for one applying for the job of leader of the free world, won Obama the White House. Along with their racist support because he is black, the liberal mainstream wholeheartedly embraces Obama's socialist/progressive agenda.

Thus, it is foolish for Tea Party patriots to pander to our enemy, the liberal mainstream media. Relentlessly, the liberal mainstream media Obama-ites and Progressivism religious zealots will distort, lie, and do whatever is necessary to divide and conquer us. Brothers and sisters, please do not fall for it. God bless.

 - Lloyd Marcus, (black) Proud Unhyphenated American

Todd Juvinall

Finally! A black journalist from the left with outrage at the hypocrisy of the NAACP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/07/19/2010-07-19_is_naacp_blind_to_farrakhan__co.html

George Rebane

As an illustration of the reading skills brought to bear here, what other unanswered questions concerning additional published core (or any other for that matter) beliefs of the TPP did RL Crabb ask?

It is important to separate additional beliefs that individual TPP members hold from those of the organization they support. To join the two is either childish or panders to the ignorant, and is not anything that contributes to understanding either the original subject matter of this post or to the expanded topic of what principles unite and motivate the TPP as a political movement.

I and others have been very explicit on the latter, here on RR and on other local media.

Mikey McD

TPP core values are 1.) fiscal responsibility 2.) Adherence to the Constitution 3.) Free Market Capitalism.... this racist b.s. is getting too much play. Those who stand to lose power/$ to smaller government will use every card in the deck to combat the growing freedom movement.

Bud Fox

A moderate? Jeff Pelline, a moderate what? Saying or writing he is doesn't make it true. For years Jeff Pelline has demonstrated himself as being a left swinger by attacking anyone or issue that is Conservative. Words are cheap and plentiful but actions really tell the truth.

D. King

Well said Mikey McD.

And like the long distance runner who sprints too
early, this meme won’t make it to the finish line.

Michael Anderson

Racism is wrong. Racism is bad. Racism has no place in America, in California, or in Nevada County. And I have yet to read anything that would lead me to believe that the TPP embraces racism as a part of its core belief system.

I have two wishes:
1. That the NAACP had published the resolution in full so we have more than a press release to go on. They will not vote on, or fully adopt, the resolution until October. I see no reason to attempt to parse a press release.
2. That the TPP and other TP orgs had immediately and forcefully repudiated racism as soon as the issue came up in their ranks last summer.

When I traveled to the south in the 1970s, I witnessed overt racism in person several different times. As a naive California 21-yr.-old visiting Baton Rouge one of those times, I came to the defense of an older black man who was being abused by his white boss. The boss laughed at me and left, and then the old man grabbed me by the scruff of the collar. He growled at me, "Boy, you got no business stickin' your nose where it don't belong, we don't need no uppity white kids comin' down here to save us--we don't need savin', so get the hell outa here."

That's how I learned at an early age that race relations in America are extremely complicated. This country has come a very long way since the Civil Rights Era. But it still has a long way to go. All of the TPP spokespersons I have read have repudiated racism several times, so I am ready to move on to other topics.

But not before I bring up this comment of yours, George: "The semantic precision of 'racist' has been destroyed, even if such precision ever existed." I believe I made the same case to you regarding 'progressive,' 'liberal,' 'independent,' and 'conservative.' What do those terms mean anymore? But you retorted that terms still have value since even a crude stereotype is better than nothing. Doesn't 'racist' fit that category?

Steve Enos

Mark Williams remains a designated spokesperson for the Tea Party Express. That's telling.

Michael Anderson

Whoops, I should also add "socialist" to that list! (-:

"But not before I bring up this comment of yours, George: 'The semantic precision of "racist" has been destroyed, even if such precision ever existed.' I believe I made the same case to you regarding "progressive," "liberal," "independent," and "conservative." What do those terms mean anymore? But you retorted that terms still have value since even a crude stereotype is better than nothing. Doesn't "racist" fit that category?"

George Rebane

SteveE, I may have accidentally blown away one of your recent comments misusing my iPhone this morning. Apologies if so, please re-post.

George Rebane

MichaelA – I already did ‘Who is a Socialist?’ to inform RR readers in the manner I use and append that term. As always, your comments on that are welcome.

Re racist – I feel that our society’s need has expanded for several, some perhaps nuanced, meanings for what ‘racist’ is forced to cover today. Its descriptive power is almost nil in regard to its ability to successfully predict the behavior of someone so labeled. To me that is a or the major element of an operational definition. Let me wander a bit.

For years I have been a member of a ‘men only’ poker group that plays once a month. We have a blast when we play, telling raunchy jokes, making politically incorrect remarks (some of which are definitely sexist), and in general talking a lot of man-talk that would probably either bore or raise more than an eyebrow of a woman. It’s a man thing and there may even be men who would not feel comfortable in that group. We like it, feel relaxed and secure in its confines, and so it has become an institution. We are all exercising the discriminatory right of association – ‘no women!’ - when we come together in a private home. (I suspect such groups are legion.)

To what extent – i.e. applying other exclusionary parameters - are we still able to come together privately with likeminded people for whatever legal purposes we desire. Could one have a quilting circle that allows no men and also no women of French descent (‘lineage’), of Ghanaian citizenry, or being born on the Arabian peninsula? Could one have a black osteopathic association, a white osteopathic association? Could one have any of these without being ostracized with the general term racist? And if identically labeled for each of these cases, will that label communicate effectively for each case? What term should be used if I want to discriminate between the quilting circle member, and the member of the black osteopathic association?

In technology we have always immediately coined new words to define the new things we invent. This has allowed rapid and effective communication in the field, and therefore supported further creativity. In non-technical speak, this process of expanding the lexicon is painfully slow, and gives rise to a lot of political heat with very little light. Why can’t we have ‘racist1’ to mean this, and ‘racist2’ to mean that, and ‘racist3’ to mean something altogether different, but all belonging to the super-class ‘racist’? Wouldn’t that be a more useful way to carry on a conversation?

In any event, it is with that spirit that I have defined and for broader use offer my own definitions of not only ‘socialist’, but all the other terms that you have listed at some future date. I always welcome anyone asking me ‘in what sense did you use …?’

Mikey McD

I couldn't help it. I love Tracy Morgan (a.k.a Tracy Jordan)... speaking of racism and Mel Gibson tapes...

"[Mel Gibson tapes] selling like hot cakes in Compton. Calling women bitches and using the n word, that ain't nothing but hip-hop."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/15/tracy-morgan-weighs-in-on_n_647231.html

Steve Enos

George posted... "SteveE, I may have accidentally blown away one of your recent comments misusing my iPhone this morning. Apologies if so, please re-post".

Thanks George... Here is the post that was removed. Below is just part of what Tea Party founder Mandy Morello had to say about Mark Williams vs. Mark Meckler. Mandy Morello is a very conservative conservative and has a lot to say about Mark Meckler.

George would be nice to see what you think about this as you have been a supporter of Mark Meckler

The Tea Party? Mark Meckler? Mark Meckler and the Tea Party?… you must read what one of the "first leaders" of the Tea Party movement now has to say about Mark Meckler. Here is the link to the full story:

http://brooksbayne.com/post/670292937/mandy-morello-disassociates-from-tea-party-patriots

This is just part of the Mark Meckler blog story...

“As far as I am concerned, Mark Meckler has proven to be worse than Mark Williams ever was. We know Mark Williams is a showman and spin artist extraordinaire. Mark Williams, at least, has the conviction to be who he is and to not quietly manipulate enthusiastic volunteers who are desperately looking for someone or someway to reclaim their country from total destruction. Mark Meckler led us to believe that he and his leadership would be different, and that he was a stand up guy who would fight “business as usual” politics. Instead, he has lowered us and this movement to a point that makes “business as usual” politics look more mature than we are! This is supposed to be a “starfish movement!” It will still continue without me. I hope the remaining Tea Party Patriots prove it is just that, a Starfish movement. I hope they are able to move on and not have to deal the childish temper tantrums coming from a Self Proclaimed National Tea Party Leader’s ego when volunteers choose not to step to the beat of his drum!

I wish you all the best and God Bless America and our Troops!

Mandy Morello
GOP Trumpeter

Todd Juvinall

George, this is quite funny actually. Enos slams conservatives at every turn, calls them liars and every other vile name he can come up with, but wait! He seems to be giving credence to a conservative Tea Party person. I thought they were all liars and charlatans Steve?

Steve Enos

Todd can make all the "claims" he wanta about me, that doesn't make them true.

I know and respect a lot of R's and conservatives and I dislike a number of D's and "Lib's". And if anyone is known for name calling and nasty personal attacks it's Todd.

Can Todd respond to the issue? Can todd respond to what Mandy Morello, a very conservative conservative has said about Mark Meckler and how Mark Meckler operates?

Can you offer a rational response?

Todd Juvinall

My response is to look at your response. Someone claiming something about someone else is a liberal playbook page. You fit that to a TEE. Look in the mirror for the problem. My hands a re clean. You people claim they are all loons but you think you can get some sort of traction by citing what someone else says. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? You all need to grow up and stp your school yard play.

Steve Enos

So Mandy Morello is a liberal? Nope Mandy Morelle was a key founder of the Tea Party and is a hard right conservative, just read her blog for some insight.

It's telling when one of the key Tea Party movement founders makes this powerful of a statement about a fellow conservative and Tea Party leader. This is the issue I raise and it seems some can't reply or address this issue.

If one is a "member" or supporter of the Tea Party this is worthy of additonal discovery and consideration.

Todd Juvinall

Let me see. Well, golly, 40 million TPP members, a couple of disgruntled members and viola' liberals foaming at the mouth. Oh Please, get real.

George Rebane

Re Mandy Morello - for what it's worth, this is what I've found out. She is anything but a liberal; in fact she is a loyal Republican who spends much of her time promoting conservative causes and signs herself 'GOP Trumpeter'.

The problem with Mandy started some time ago when she would not separate her political party interests with that of the TPP. She refused to sign on to the TPP principle of not endorsing or being connected to any particular political party. TPP is an issues promoting movement, and limits those issues to a very few (as has been pointed out on RR and elsewhere). Mandy would have none of such separation and was eventually contacted by Mark Meckler and Jenny Beth Martin. The message was, 'You're comprimising the independence and thrust of the TPP. Please separate your work on behalf the GOP from the TPP, or resign from the TPP.' That didn't go over very well, and the recriminations started.

So now we have a dust-up in the growing but still fledgling TPP movement whose enemies smell blood and are swooping in to make the most of it.

Steve Enos

George, thanks for responding to the issues vs. making personal attacks like Todd Juvinall.

Mandy is a long time conservative and has put out a lot of effort in support of fellow conservatives and R's. That's one reason it's very interesting that such a known, long time conservative would offer up such an extensive public statement about Mark Meckler, a fellow conservative and fellow Tea Party founder.

Mandy's statement that “As far as I am concerned, Mark Meckler has proven to be worse than Mark Williams ever was. We know Mark Williams is a showman and spin artist extraordinaire. Mark Williams, at least, has the conviction to be who he is..." is a very strong statement.

"Mark Meckler has proven to be worse than Mark Williams ever was"... now considering all the issues with Mark Williams this part of her statement alone is huge!

Todd Juvinall

Calling you a liberal is a personal attack?

Steven Frisch

Wondering if any of the moral majority here are going to blog about the career destruction and smearing of Georgia USDA official Shirley Sherrod? Since you all are so quick to correct injustices, I'm wondering who here will come to her defense? Who will admit that Andrew Brietbart was vindictive and unprincipled in his perversion of her comments?

George Rebane

SteveF - watching the full video on Breitbart does not allow anyone to conclude that Sherrod did anything wrong. Most certainly nothing to have the NAACP demand her head, and the White House demand that she pull over to the side of the road and resign right then and there. Now you must have information that turns this all around. Please share what caused you to appeal to the "we were snookered" defense and attack Breitbart.

And as a follow-on, stipulate the worst about Breitbart. How can a blogger spook both the NAACP and the White House into acting sophomorically and precipitously, and fire the woman without either investigating or granting her due process? Is there anything this administration will take responsibility for, or do we now add Breitbart to GW Bush, Cheney, Paulson, ... on the 'It was all his fault' list?

Todd Juvinall

George, Breitbart was sent the video, did not edit it and made no commentary. The NAACP saw it and called for her to be fired. The Ag Undersecretary called her as she was driving and asked her to pull over and stop, take her Blackberry and text in a resignation letter. That was the White House and Vilsack. Now it appears she was abused by Obama's people because she was telling a story and it concluded with her becoming a NON racist. So, I'll give her a pass and it shows the meanness of Obama for not getting all the facts before acting out.

Steven Frisch

Wow, you guys take the cake.

Over on Jeff's blog, when I heard about and watched the first iteration of the Sherrod video, I was the first to say. "If this is true, she should be fired". I will also be the first here to admit that the Obama administration should have gotten the facts before they demanded Ms. Sherrod's resignation. Very stupid move on their part.

But come on, Brietbart has a responsibility as a "journalist' doesn't he? This was a hit job, plain and simple.

A woman who got slandered by a false news report, gets screwed, and you guys think it proves your point that the Obama administration is flawed? No cr*p. But it also proves the point that MAJOR PLAYERS in the conservative movement like Andrew Brietbart have no shame, and would screw someone like this, and not even have the class to apologize. Brietbart took the entire comment out of context, did not care if he was harming someone, and was hoping to elicit a response.

I have a flash for you. 10 bucks says that Tom Vilsack re-instates Ms. Sherrod and tactfully apologizes. Another 10 bucks says Brietbart never does, because he does not care who he hurts.

George Rebane

Sorry to be so thick SteveF, but I don't know how an uncommented video of Sherrod making remarks that clearly indicated she had corrected her initial mistake would be considered "slander" or 'screwing' her. Unless, of course, Breitbart is a bad guy and knew that the NAACP and Obama's crew would react like kneejerk idiots on what clearly was no evidence for a dismissal.

Thank you for the "flash", but a more careful read of my initial response to you would let anyone conclude that I also want the woman re-instated with very public apologies from both the dufus teams. And Breitbart should get a medal for creating another educational moment for the country about the current status of the two important institutions that went after Sherrod's head. My initial remarks stand, as does the chasm that separates our worldviews.

Steve Frisch

Unbelievable. I can admit that Obama made a mistake and let this happen, even after I hedged my initial reaction waiting for a credible source, but you guys can not own up to the fact that this was,, as Clarence Thomas once described a public act of media overreaction, a high tech lynching.

Brietbart started this by publicizing a truncated clearly doctored tape, implying black racism and reverse discrimination, let the clowns at Fox take it up, and counted on the fear of retribution from within the Dem party and the sensitivity of the NAACP to reverse discrimination claims to do his dirty work.

It's disgusting that you guys would not recognize the right wing propaganda machines role in this..

At least Democrats, when they are wrong, can stand up and admit it without fear of loss of face, as Tom Vilsack and the White House did today.

This is the definition of race baiting on the right wings part. You guys are playing with Helter Skelter and you don't care.

I'll say it again, you guys actions disgust me.

Todd Juvinall

The leftwing is race baiting here George and they are making up their "facts" again. The NAACP called for the woman to be fired. She made the speech at a NAACP luncheon and now we know it was a left wing ploy. These liberals has fallen for it again. The right has clean hands, FOX never aired the video until after the Obama Admin fired the woman. Facts are facts and liberal race baiters are squirming.

Mikey McD

It should be against all tax payer funded organizations (i.e. USDA) policy to speak at a group as racist as the NAACP. NAACP brings out the worst in folks. This speech is very damning of Mrs. Sherrod. Talk about double standard :

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2010/07/20/sherrod.naacp.speech.dctv.html

Steve Enos

White Supremacists and Anti-Semites Plan to Recruit at July 4 Tea Parties @ http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/White_Supremacists_July_4_Tea_Parties.htm

White Nationalist Movement ready for Tea Party: will next Timothy McVeigh be there? @ http://www.examiner.com/x-5697-Grassroots-Politics-Examiner~y2009m4d9-White-Nationalists-Movement-ready-for-Tea-Party-will-next-Timothy-McVeigh-be-there

Neo-Nazis From Stormfront Going to the 9/12 Tea Party in DC!!! @ http://ladylibertyslamp.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/neo-nazis-from-stormfront-going-to-the-912-tea-party-in-dc/

Tea Party Infiltrated By Stormfront Racists @ http://beforeitsnews.com/story/41/890/Tea_Party_Infiltrated_By_Stormfront_Racists.html

George Rebane

Now that both the White House and the NAACP have apologized to Ms Sherrod, we can be thankful for the lessons learned, especially about the all the participants involved including Mr Breitbart. I am under no illusion that our friends on the left have learned the same things that those of us on the right took away from this. But I'm sure we all wish Ms Sherrod a happy and profitable resumption of her career.

George Rebane

SteveE - I suppose that those one-liners and links must serve as the best placeholders the left can muster for its case that the TPP is filling with undesirables. Well enough. But please rest assured if I gave an equivalent list of self-declared Socialists, Communists, Marxists, Leninists, etc who are already full-fledged, ensconsed, and welcomed members of the Democratic Party and this administration, it would bring a yawn from my constituents because everyone already knows that. A perversion of logic does allow decrlaring the potential to be the equivalent of the achieved.

Steven Frisch

Come on George where id you get the picture? Who is this group of good looking young people? Is it just a token picture of a diverse set of young people you pulled off the internet? Why would you post this picture with the titles post Who is a Racist? What was your motive?

Todd Juvinall

Come on Steve, how come you haven't gien us the breakdown of the races in your non profit? Good for the goose!

Mandy Morello

@ George Rebane,This is Mandy Morello, I was just informed you posted a comment about some supposed reply from Mark Meckler and JennyBeth Martin....First off there is no such reply and I have "fought side by side " with Mark, Patty, their Kids and Marks Parents since Feb 29, 2009. If Mark Meckler is so anti-politician or candidate why was McClintock and Runner (Both of which I endorsed through GOP Trumpeter) asked to be there at the first Tax Day event, Sac 8-28 and McClintock would have been there for the 2010 Tax Day if he had been in town.

Your comment about Meckler and JennyBeth, which comes off as though Meckler was being a typical lawyer stating something about a rogue volunteer, is complete BS. First of all I never received such a note. Secondly,I have been holding Candidate Meet & Greets through TPP groups throughout the state since last December and ANY CANDIDATE was welcome to come and use this non-partisan chance to speak at a Tea Party event... it was common knowledge that GOP Trumpeter was there to facilitate the TPP (at least in California) with the ability to become active in the most crucial part of our activism, without violating their non-profit status,in order to find Candidates that embrace our values to reclaim our state!

Finally, your comment "'You're compromising the independence and thrust of the TPP. Please separate your work on behalf the GOP from the TPP, or resign from the TPP.'" Who sent you that because I would like to see it.... there has never been such communication and it is hard for me to resign from an organization that I specifically never had an official position on in the first place so that I could be their loophole!!!

Tread lightly, George you are sounding like a Meckler's plant to spread false information!

By the way...the GOP in GOP Trumpeter stands for Grand Ol' Partiot since the Party is not so grand anymore and the point was to reclaim the party in the process.

George Rebane

Thanks for commenting Mandy. Since I have no first person knowledge of this situation, my report was of what I was told by the Mecklers. I mentioned no note, so your remark there is a puzzle to me. I understand that the communication to you was via phone.

Since the TPP is a loosely bound movement, and you say that you have continued working in behalf of the TPP, what contacts have you had with Mark and JennyBeth regarding your TPP relationship, and what do you currently consider that relationship to be?

In short, if what I reported is in error, please clear it up. And again, thanks for taking the time since as I said, there are a lot vultures up there looking to start circling.

Laura Boatright

First of all, as for "who's a racist" Mark Williams wrote a very distasteful SATIRE that he should have had someone else read BEFORE he posted it. Especially with sarcasm and satire, sometimes it does not read with the same "flavor" as we meant it to. (I am not a huge fan of Williams', but I try to be FAIR with all people, even those I disagree with.)

However, Mark Meckler, IMO< has put his personal vendetta above the TRUTH of the movement, and an honest debate about race in America at large in order to POSITION Tea Party Patriots as THE spokespeople for the movement. MOST OF US REJECT THAT IDEA.

He is AFRAID to talk about real racism, so easier to attack his rival.
While he's busy "branding" Tea Party Patriots by keeping Mark Williams' story alive, I am addressing the TRUTH: http://www.teapartyie.com/news.php

I have been in this movement from the beginning too. I know Meckler and Morello very well. I know "the inside scoop" and try not to air dirty laundry, until I see MISTRUTHS...then I am forced to speak out. (I did the same thing in support of Meckler last year after Williams had made false accusations against Meckler and the entire CA Tea Party Patriot coalition.)

In the situation with Mandy, MARK MECKLER IS SPINNING IT. Mandy wrote her disassociation letter FOR UNDERHANDED POLITICS, the many Tea Party organizers across CA were concerned with Mecklers TOO CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CRP, and (recently drafted to run for POTUS, Tom McClintock Who had been mysteriously "inserted" in Tea party events at the last minute by Meckler).

If anyone is letting partisan politics taint the TPP, it's Meckler himself.
Mandy Morello was supporting a grassroots candidate. Meckler, it appears, was covertly supporting an establishment candidate, Poizner. Mark Meckler and Dawn Wildman attended a conference call with Steve Poizner and Marc Harris (what is it with "Marks"??), an action they did NOT extend to ANY OTHER CANDIDATE in the race for Governor. Why would they do this? Meckler and Wildman are not stupid. I can only deduce that this was a deliberate action on their part. So much for non-partisan and non-candidate endorsing.
He SAYS one thing, and DOES another. This seems to be how Meckler operates. So,consider THAT when you hear Meckler's version of the order of events and Mandy Morello's disassociation from TPP.

MECKLER'S actions have tragically split the movement in our state. There are those of us on the INSIDE who know the score, and bloggers who don't.

Everyone is free to examine the evidence and decide for themselves who is telling the truth, and what their motivations might be.

Laura Boatright
http://TeaPartyIE.com
since March 4th, 2009
(CO-FOUNDER OF NATIONAL TEA PARTY MOVEMENT...WITH 10,OOO OTHERS, AND GROWING EVERY DAY)

pam silleman

frankly, after seeing the lies being perpetuated by Jenny Beth on the Glenn Beck show Friday, I really don't even want to hear the name TPP or Mark Meckler or Jenny Beth.
I hear new stories daily now about Mark Meckler and his next 'demand' etc.
Today, I had a call from a newer Tea Party Patriot group, they were asking me about how to form a 501-C.........I told them that I was just a small time, one man show and am not incorporated, but that I was sure Mark Meckler the chairman of TPP would be happy to give him advice. The caller hesitated and said: "well, he will for a price'.............I was again, shocked by the greed of Meckler.
He receives all of the donations made to our national site, but when one of his groups needs advice (he is an attorney after all)......he DEMANDS MONEY!
After I realized what Mark was really about I severed my relationship from them, I do not want anyone to think that I am doing all that I do DAILY, for money or personal gain.

Steven Frisch

Ah, the beat goes on!

By the way, there are a number of very good non-profit formation primers available on-line for free, or at a very low cost. Here is one I have used with a couple of people to help them form non-profits that comes from Nolo Press. For about $35 you get all of the forms and instructions, letter templates, everything.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-30228.html

Steve Enos

Hey George... I told you what Mark Meckler was up to and you bashed me amd protected Mark Meckler.

Time for you to wake up George, wake up the the sham and scam that is Mark Meckler, we's working this for his own power and profit!

George Rebane

SteveE, where did I "bash" you?

Steve Enos

Oh please George... you have been a very strong defender of Mark Meckler.

Do I really need to pull up all the past posts where you defend Mark Meckler when I have raised the issues about Mark Meckler being a scam?

George, instead of asking me your lame question you need to respond to what has been posted here by Tea Party founders.

George, you shuld wake up and smell the cofffe about Mark Meckler the the TPP scammer. Look at who is raising these issues George!

Address the real issues raised by Pam Sillerman, Laura Boatright(CO-FOUNDER OF NATIONAL TEA PARTY MOVEMENT) and Mandy Morello! These folks are true TP folks, while Mark Meckler is a scammer that whats power and money!

Steve Enos

Pam Silleman backs up my past posts about Marl Meckler being a scam. Here's part of what Pam had to say"

"The caller hesitated and said: "well, he will for a price'.............I was again, shocked by the greed of Meckler. He receives all of the donations made to our national site, but when one of his groups needs advice (he is an attorney after all)......he DEMANDS MONEY!After I realized what Mark was really about I severed my relationship from them, I do not want anyone to think that I am doing all that I do DAILY, for money or personal gain".

Hey George, wake up! Mark Meckler is using the Tea Party movement and Tea Party members to scam for profit and power.

Larry Naritelli

TPP should not go on Glenn Beck and throw stones at other Tea Party organizations. The actions of Jenny Beth Martin and Mark Meckler to undermine candidates in the CA primaries was deplorable. When they couldn't use racism, they made false claims of violent threats that never happened. Even going so far as to create stories of illicit affairs to discredit conservative candidates. Their attacks were based on complete falsehoods and Glenn Beck should have done better research before he allowed Ms. Martin on his show.

Todd Juvinall

Le's see, The TPP is national, millions of adherents, marches, rallies and supporters abound. Even Congress now has a TPP Caucus, and some people think the littl soap opera here will make a dent in the enthusiasm? Sorry for the liberals, ain't gonna happen. I was instructed early on in my first run for public office to disregard the soap operas. Thise that wish to undermine the campaign or the candidate try and suck everyone into the soap opera. It is an age old tactic, mostly by liberals/democrats and it won't work with the TPP.

George Rebane

LarryN, those are some pretty heavy words. Could you please point us to some "false claims of violent threats ...", and also created stories of "illicit affairs"? Thanks.

SteveE - Just so I understand how a liberal uses English, let me see if I have it straight. Is it correct that if B attacks A, and C responds by just defending A, then C is "bashing" A? Just FYI, the rest of us use 'bashing' to mean something else completely.

Steve Enos

So now we have Todd Juvinall bashing on Pam Sillerman, Laura Boatright(CO-FOUNDER OF NATIONAL TEA PARTY MOVEMENT), Mandy Morello and Larry Naritelli and the important issues they raise.

Todd Juvinall says it's "the liberals"... wake up! To have Todd Juvinall bash Mandy Morello and the issues she has raised is beyond insane! Mandy is one hard working, true conservative!

Todd Juvinall can also try and discredit Pam Silleman all he wants, but Pam was first in on the Tea Party and is co-founder of the National Tea Party movement!

What is clear from the key Tea Party folks that have been working for the cause is clear... Mark Meckler has been working to profit and gain power for himself and not for The Tea Party movement!

It's all coming out at last... thank God there are brave and true conservatives and real Tea Party folks willing to step up and get the word out about who Mark Mackler really is.

Folks also need to check out how Mark Meckler has been getting a LOT of money from a Southern California "main stream", good old boy lobby and interst group to front for their interests.

Mark Meckler is "working" for his own profit and power and this is at last gettying out to the public!

Thank you to the real Patriots that are speaking out here and exposing that Mark Meckler is running a scam.

Larry Naritelli

Well if the leaders of TPP use progressive tactics to undermine conservative candidates then the TPP Caucus is in for a rude awakening. You can call it a soap opera if you want, but those of us who learned the hard way have done our best to warn you about what is happening. Why else would the TPP go on national television to discredit the tea party organization that raises money for tea party candidates across the country? The only ones that benefited from the actions of the TPP leaders in CA were progressives.

Steve Enos

George, try to continue your defense of Mark Meckler all you want, butit won;t work. True Patriots are now getting the word out about Mark Meckler.

I have raised these same issues about Mark Meckler being nothing more than ascammer that is "working" for personal profit and power.

You always defend Mark Meckler and post about how close you are to this great American! well it's time for you to wake up to the facts.

Thank you to the real Patriots that are speaking out here and exposing that Mark Meckler is running a scam.

Steve Enos

And what about Mark Meckler sending out emails to Tea Party members asking them to send money DIRECTLY to his house and to make the checks payable to him and to wrote "for personal use" on the checks?

Mark Meckler didn't use the TPP mailing lists to raise money for the TPP, he did it to raise money for himself, for his own personal use... this is a fact.

Mark Meckler has used the TPP and TP information databases to direct email TP members to send him "personal" money, for his personal use!

Again, thank God there are true TP Patriots that are now willing to get the truth about Mark Meckler out for all to see.

George Rebane

To the commenters who recently have joined RR and this comment thread - please know that Steve Enos is a very loud, energetic, if not an always coherent progressive voice in Nevada County. His opposition to the TP and TPP is longstanding and on record here on RR and other blogs. Right now he is issuing the classic call to the opposition - 'Let's you and he fight!'

Continuing on ToddJ's observation, which I think correctly characterizes the national situation, if there is substance to the charges made here, then that substance should be made known. Else all we have is internecine name calling and character assassinaton via innuendo. And I do stand by my previous questions, all of which remain unanswered.

Larry Naritelli

George, I am certain that others in the movement are well aware of Meckler's emails during the primaries. Also the blog posted by Jenny Beth Martin's progressive troll from Maine the weekend before the primary. However this is not the forum to go through each and every item. Suffice it to say that Mandy, Pam, and others are hard working patriots who have given their all to this movement. There are many good people who are part of the TPP. I was a volunteer for them all last year. Once the TPP eradicates the progressive influences at the top of their ranks, they will become a much more effective organization. Attacking people because they attend other Tea Party events or who want to change the moderate forces in the Republican party is very divisive and unproductive. If Beck decides to be part of the healing he will need to do the research. It is out there all over the place.

Steve Enos

George, if you check my past posts I have ask for folks to support the Tea Party and not the RNC. In fact I have asked folks to send their support money to the TP and not the RNC... for good reasons.

George, I have raised these very same issues about Mark Meckler time and time again and you have always defended Mark Meckler and attacked me and it's you that has also responded with claims about how honest and wonderful Mark Meckler is, vs. checking the facts.

You can attack the messangers shinkng the light on Mark Meckler all you want, but the message and the facts remain. You can continue your defense of Mark Meckler but the truth is at last getting out!

Thank God there are true TP Patriots that are now willing to get the truth about Mark Meckler out for all to see.

George Rebane

SteveE - I take it that your use of the word 'attack' suffers from a similar semantic sickness as does your 'bash'.

For the record - earlier in the year an appeal was put out to local TPP members to financially help the Mark Meckler family since they were tapping out their savings paying for all the travel expenses Mark was running up in behalf of the TPP (those damned oil company checks were delayed again). Jo Ann and I, and many others supported the Mecklers in this appeal. There was no subtrefuge in this appeal, we all knew where the money was needed and where our support was going. To imply otherwise is ingenuous.

LarryN - I agree that rehashing the evidence in this blog's comment thread is neither efficient nor productive (however, if links exist to better sites, then please provide any that you have). Do you have any suggestions about how we can resolve or patch or ... this dust-up here in NorCal? You also point to a national disagreement - that of endorsing candidates or not - that I think is important and needs to be resolved. I was under the impression that that was a main difference between the Patriots and the Express - the latter chose to endorse candidates (and the Republicans) while the former did not. What is your understanding?

Paul Emery

How many Tea Parties are there? It's kind of like sour dough starter. When you eat the bread no one knows where it came from. Has anybody done a "Family Tree" of the movement ?

Steven Frisch

Is that really your defense--that you are just repeating what your buddy Mark told you? If so, I have some highly valuable although occasionally moist land I would like to sell you in Florida. For a guy who doesn't seem to trust anything, you sure have a lot faith in a shooting star.

Jeff Pellne

Why wasn't this financial contribution to Mark Meckler's family disclosed until now? You write about Meckler all the time.

George Rebane

Dear Readers - Stan Meckler has weighed in on this issue here.

http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/08/stan-meckler-responds.html

Steve Enos

Is Mark Meckler is all about... Mark Meckler?

Consider the following:

1. When the Mark Williams "dust up” started Mark Meckler ran to the press and tossed Williams under the bus as faster as he could.

Mark Meckler went to the press and made statements and claims that he, Mark Meckler The Tea Party Leader had been warning the Tea Party about Mark Williams from the start.

But in these press interviews bashing Mark Williams Mark Meckler forgot to mention he had long running connections to Mark Williams. Mark Meckler forgot to disclose that he and Williams have appeared and spoken together in the past. He forgot to mention that in 2009 the Meckler's selected Mark Williams to be the MC/Host/speaker at the TPP gathering here in Nevada County. He forgot to mention a bit of a falling out. Seems Mark Meckler forgets a lot of things.

Seems Mark Meckler forgot his relationship and past appearances with Mark Williams and instead ran to the press to claim he warned everyone about Mark Williams long ago. Sorry, this is the behavior of an opportunist.

2. What about the private use of the Tea Party membership email database by Mark Meckler to send out a plea for Tea Party members to “donate” money for his PERSONAL use? Mark Meckler used and emailed the Tea Party membership list asking folks to send checks to his personal address and indicate they were for his PERSONAL use.

Combine this misuse of the membership list with the comments being raised by others in the posts above. Folks with the Tea Party are now providing information about Mark Meckler asking for money and they raise questions about Mark Mecklers use of the national Tea Party sites donations.

Pam Silleman posts above about Mark Meckler… “He receives all of the donations made to our national site, but when one of his groups needs advice (he is an attorney after all).… he DEMANDS MONEY.”

Wouldn’t an attorney know that it’s not a good idea to use the Tea Party membership email database to send out pleas for Tea Party members to “donate” money for his PERSONAL use?

This issue about the misuse of the Tea Party membership email database and the donations to the Tea Party and Mark Mecklers “personal” account funds should be looked into.

What about Mark Meckler getting paid a lot of money from the Lincoln Club of Orange County?

From what folks are now saying and disclosing and the information that is starting to flood out it’s clear all this should be looked into.

The issues is… will it?

Steven Frisch

See this is why people start non-profits------third party audited financial statements, annual conflict of interest forms, required 990 federal income tax filing, state tax filing, articles of incorporation and by laws on file with the Secretary of State.

Perhaps the Tea Party movement and CABPRO could learn a lesson about transparency, accountability and reporting.

By the way, I have a lot of sympathy for Mark Meckler on the financial front here. Advocacy work is hard and requires a great deal of dedication. There is no reason it should not be paid if people are willing to donate to support it. But this really points out why a little structure is important.

Steve Frisch

Interesting to see that is concerned about transparency from the Governor.

http://cabproreport.typepad.com/weblog/

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