Debt Crisis – The knives are still out

George Rebane

This weekend President Obama has told ol’ Harry to cool it and reinserted himself into the debt limit talks.  I think that the tea party message has finally gotten through, though not in its entirety.  Leaked compromises still consist of immediate debt limit increases that won’t be matched by spending cuts until many years down the line, if then.  If Obama gets gets a second term, all bets on the economy and fiscal responsibility are off – spending increases, tax increases, regulatory increases, and limitless borrowing - next stop Depression 2.0.  Come to think of it, this is about much more than upping the debt limit, maybe that's why the knives are still out. 

The current standoff has been perfectly captured by Nevada County's RL ‘Bob’ Crabb in the cartoon below that first appeared in the 30jul11 Union where we regularly enjoy his political and social insights.  (Bob also makes lexicographic contributions as a commenter on these pages.)

Comments

[Douglas Keachie]

The Republicans keep on speaking of an "expanding government." Their reasoning seems to be that the government is "going to be obligated to pay for more baby boomers, soc sec and medicare."

I'm sorry, "Going to" is the wrong phrase. The government in the PAST made the deal where they collected CASH from the American people, who AGREED to give it in EXCHANGE for those future benefits.

Those are not "Entitlements." They are the "TERMS of the DEAL." If the Tea Party members want to complain, let them talk to the politicians of the past who then raided the piggy banks and stuffed them with IOU's.

In the meantime, bring home the troops, and set them to work fixing our infrastructure, and preparing sites for solar installations. We do not need any more dead soldiers out defending oil fields for the corporations who rig the laws via campaign contributions and lobbyists so they pay next to nothing in taxes, yet have their overseas assets protected by the blood of America's working and middle classes.

[RL Crabb]

It remains to be seen who comes out of this with the nastiest wounds. Both of these parties had the opportunity to work out this "crisis" and so many others when they had the votes. If these are the best and brightest this country can come up with, we are truly doomed.

[Douglas Keachie]

These are not the best and brightest. These are those most happy doing the biddings of those with the cash.

Today’s history lesson, the one and only time the USA was debt free, but with the Amerindians paying the price:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/07/29/zero-u-s-debt-wasnt-so-great-the-first-time-around/

[Russ Steele]

Double dip is in the cards, look at the GDP of 1.4% with a revised last Qtr GDP to 0.4% What will the 1.4% be revided to, not up I will bet. Companies are still laying off thousands, Merck, Research In Motion, and HSC just this last week. Medical device companies are moving to China, including GE and Boston Scientific,
resulting in the loss of more jobs. Signs the economy is in trouble, we all ready have Depression 2.0 in California. Well really we never got out of 1.0.

[Douglas Keachie]

So who can live in the USA on the wages the corps pay the Chinese workers, and the people even China outsources to?

The American worker and the unions are not the problem.

Reality is the problem, and the inability of the American owners (shareholder) to see that the outsourcing of the jobs is what will kill this country, but good, and butt fast. Another solution must be found, and soon.

[Greg Goodknight]

Sorry Keach, but the Feds can change the terms of the deal at will. There is no contract. You have no right to the deal promised by dead politicians.

[George Rebane]

Quoting Gov Perry of Texas, "You cannot be anti-business and for jobs."

[Todd Juvinall]

But there is no review of the real issues killing jobs by anyone. Even the mantras by my friends the Republicans is truly insufficient to counteract the democrats emotional crap. Until we get some people in leadership who can gives a speech like Colin Powell gave for GWB at the convention in 2000, we are screwed. The economy is in the tank and yet, Jerry Brown imposes $10 bucks on us without regard to Prop 26. And they will shove another 1500 bills down our throats this session. The state fire Marshall imposes a requirement for sprinklers in all new construction without regard to cost to the middle class. Banks got billions and main street got the shaft. Until we reign in stupid laws and regulations, cut the size of government at least 25% and make everyone in America have skin in the fed tax game, we are doomed.

[Scott Obermuller]

Quote of the day -"So who can live in the USA on the wages the corps pay the Chinese workers, and the people even China outsources to?" Actually, I could, and would be glad to as long as you removed the unions' monopoly and got rid of the oppressive govt regs and rules. Deal? I thought not. Govt and union oppression is actually all the left really cares about. Back to fighting over the deck chairs on the sinking ship.

[Barry Pruett]

BTW...another very humorous cartoon Crabb!

[RL Crabb]

August 2 - Congress fails to raise debt ceiling.
August 5 - Release of the movie "Rise of the Planet of the Apes".

Coincidence? I think not.

[Douglas Keachie]

"There is no contract."

So then, who cares if airport fuel taxes are used to shelter the homeless?

[Douglas Keachie]

"Actually, I could,"

and I'm sure you could, given your life savings, but how well would you fare as a 14 year old ghetto kid, suddenly having the American minimum wage ripped out from under your newly minted economic feet?

[Douglas Keachie]

And another myth bites the dust:

The Republicans cling to the myth that “small business” owners are the “job creators,” and so they oppose proposals to eliminate the Bush rate cuts for even those earning over $250,000. But relatively few small business owners earn $250,000—in fact, fewer than 3 percent of the 20 million people who file business income on their personal tax forms (the 1040s) earn that much.
The GOP Lies: 97% of Small Businesses Would Not be Affected by Increasing Taxes on the Wealthy | Buz
blog.buzzflash.com
Recently, BuzzFlash at Truthout talked about how Republican Congressional "deficit reduction" and tax cuts for the rich and corporations don't help and even hurt small businesses in America, because the actual policies facilitate large companies in crushing small business competitors.

[George Rebane]

In the current debate 'Sub S corporations' is the umbrella term for a collection of small businesses that are also organized as sole proprietorships (many mor of these than Sub Ss), partnerships, LLCs, etc.

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - some of you have asked about replacing the colored icons with another image, like the great looking bearded balk guy above. Here's an exchange I had with TypePad about this.

Gjrebane, Jul-30 09:25 pm (PDT):

I believe I have enabled this feature on my accout since my picture and another commenter's picture appear in the comments. Can you please verify this from your end? Thanks. gjr

Kymberlie McGuire, Jul-31 03:27 pm (PDT):
Hi there, Thanks for the note.

There is still an option to fill in the form and leave a comment, so if a commenter does this, then their image won't appear. However, if they click on the option to sign in via TypePad, Facebook, etc., you'll see their image.

I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, the best thing to do is to open a help ticket within TypePad by clicking the Help link in the top navigation.

Thanks,
Kymberlie

[Douglas Keachie]

Now I have to go figure out who I am on TypePad and what my password was. I refuse to let Yahoo or any major player grab my FB account data. I refuse to play any games, sign up for causes, etc., on FB for the same reason. And I seldom directly paste any photos on FB, because if you wish to share with "Everyone" they then steal your copyright. I always leave a link to Flickr instead.

Funny, spell checker bleeps a red squiggle under TypePad, inside of TypePad.

[Douglas Keachie]

Ah Ha, wordpress and typepad are hopelessly scrambled into one another. Let's see if this works.

[Douglas Keachie]

I mean just REALLY hopelessly! Should have grabbed avatar, it didn't.

[Douglas Keachie]

Finally!

[Steven Frisch]

test

[Steven Frisch]

One can sign in with FB and use your avatar/photo there.

[Russ Steele]

I have signed in with Face Books, let see if my mug shot shows.

[Scott Obermuller]

"how well would you fare as a 14 year old ghetto kid, suddenly having the American minimum wage ripped out from under your newly minted economic feet?" Which ones? The ones that apply themselves and make millions? Or the "Boo Hoo - I want my handout or I'll kill you"
I notice the billions we dumped into the govt ghetto programs have totally failed - so lets pour in billions more!
As to small businesses wanting more taxes - You are right. They can hardly wait. They cry every day about not being taxed into the ground. Please name for me the numerous small businesses that want more taxes.

[Russ Steele]

And, this is where out money goes: http://ncwatch.typepad.com/photos/text_jpgs/down-the-hole.html

[Martin]

Watching NBC's DateLine on KCRA Channel 3 right now. What a Hoot.... totally Leftwing biased MSM reporting under WH orders. They be running scared boss as 2012 is coming. LOL....

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Scott-
Quote of the day -"So who can live in the USA on the wages the corps pay the Chinese workers, and the people even China outsources to?" Actually, I could, and would be glad to as long as you removed the unions' monopoly and got rid of the oppressive govt regs and rules. Deal? I thought not. Govt and union oppression is actually all the left really cares about. Back to fighting over the deck chairs on the sinking ship.

DK- they never had any economic feet, unless someone is willing to pay them more than they are worth without any experience at anything.

Remember if a union wage is $32 an hour and no job = $0 - who pays the difference??? want and demand all you want - its always what the mareket will bear

Always remember- "People in hell want ice water too"

[Russ Steele]

Martin,

After ten minutes we turned it off, the propaganda was too thick to cut through.

[Todd Juvinall]

It is a farce, how can 535 people be so stupid?

[Mikey McD]

Our country desperately needs a leader in the white house.

Harken back to when Jack bought the magic beans... $2.5 Trillion in deficit reduction without a single cut to entitlements, defense or raising any taxes... magic beans.

[Mikey McD]

This is why I send him $ even though he is not in my district... as far as politicians go he is a stud (just like his old man).

Open Letter: Why I Oppose the Debt Ceiling Compromise:

http://paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=280

[Douglas Keachie]

Scott, you are still not getting it.

What is the average wage in China?

Now explain how well you would do in this country, if that was,(and it soon will be) here?

[Todd Juvinall]

I think Keachie needs an econ 101 class. The difference in wages is huge but so are the living costs of the two countries. For instance, if we make 20 bucks and hour and pay $4.50 for a loaf of bread and the Chinese family makes 10 bucks an hour and pays $3 a loaf, who has the better deal?

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Todd put that way-

1/2 a loaf is better than no loaf at all

[Steve Enos]

"the Chinese family makes 10 bucks an hour and pays $3 a loaf".

Todd... do you really think your above post is factual and true?

[Todd Juvinall]

No facts SteveE simply a question. Your reading skills need an update.

[Douglas Keachie]

$20 - $4.50 = $16.50

$10 - $3.00 = $7.00

Well Todd, that works out to the American family, with their $20 adjusted to $10, and their bread adjusted to $2.25, having more money than the Chinese family ($10 - $2.25 = $7.75) after they buy the bread.

But, I think you'll find the average per capita income way lower than $10 per hour.

"In 1996, for example, we find:

Table 1 shows levels of mean household per-capita income (in PPP dollars) for (rural)
India and (rural) China and for their respective regions. It is clear from the tables that
mean household per-capita income in China, at $904, was nearly one third higher than
the corresponding Indian level of $680."

For the year, 2003
4,392 China average income
21,218 Japan average income
2,160 India
19,638 Western Europe
29,054 USA
6,453 World Average
0.68 China as a percentage of world
For the year 2030, projected, but I doubt the USA, as it is too high.
14,415 China
28,599 Japan
6,228 India
30,146 western europe
44,600 USA
11,413 World
1.26 China as a percentage of the world

Basicallym, the Chinese will work for megacorps for less than USA current wages, and maybe a lot less. Even in hi tech.

[Douglas Keachie]

The source for the above information is:

http://www.craig.csufresno.edu/International_Programs/JC/IJB/Volumes/Volume%2011/V113-1.pdf

[Douglas Keachie]

BTW another interesting aspect of the above chart is that western Europe makes only 2/3 what the USA citizen makes. Now how the heck do they afford their "socialized" medicine.

[Todd Juvinall]

I am talking about cost of living. Are you two dense?

[Scott Obermuller]

Douglas - I told you what I was talking about. I'll type real slow now so you can keep up. I forgot I was dealing with a college grad. Get rid of the union monopolies and get rid of needless oppressive govt regs and fees. Deal? Forget the wages - I don't care what freakin wages some one wants to pay me. I'll get my own money. Just get rid of the left wing leaches and stooges. Govt is the problem. I only need the Constitutionally mandated govt the founders originally intended, not the commie nanny state for those that need the govt to wipe their behind and blow their nose.

[Douglas Keachie]

Are there two of me, ToddJ?

ScottO, I don't think there are any government regs or unions in China. Sounds like your version of Heaven.

[Douglas Keachie]

BTW, ScottO,

Are you channeling the dead Founding Fathers and psychoanalyzing them at the same time, or are you merely giving forth your interpretation of what their intentions were, from selected writings, of theirs, and of their contemporaries?

[Scott Obermuller]

Yes - I "select" to read the actual thoughts of the folks that wrote the Constitution. That way, I learn about the concept they had of a limited govt that is responsible only for protecting our rights and is to not provide goods to the public. They knew that once the govt started handing out stuff to the citizens, we would go broke. Amazingly, they were completely correct. But you can ignore the law (most of the feds do) and we will go broke. That's where we are headed, aren't you happy?

[Douglas Keachie]

ScottO,

Can you provide a reference in which they said that the government was not to provide goods? Either in Constitution or in Federalist Papers?

Postal system, roadways, military and all its hardware, are not "goods?" REA is not goods? Space exploration is not goods? Funding for medical research is not "goods?" Land grant colleges have no assets, paid for by government, one way or the other?

Farm subsidies are not "goods?"

Seems like "goods" that can be used by the wealthy, like the "goods" of how many square miles given to the Big Four, are OK, peachy keen, but other goods for the poor and uneducated are "BAD!"

Goodie for you. You've got your goodies, and let the rest work for Chinese wages and benefits...

[George Rebane]

The Constitution is a document of enumerated powers that intentionally and unambiguously limits the role of the federal government. Asking questions about 'where does it say that government is not to provide' something shows a profound misunderstanding of the document, and its Founders' intent.

[Scott Obermuller]

Look up hyperbole in the dictionary and there's a group shot of the lefties that post here. It's all they seem to know. Douglas, I have stated clearly on more than one occasion that I am more than willing to support all Constitutionally mandated operations of the fed govt. Obviously we can both agree on cutting the enormous waste that goes on even there, but not for handing out goodies. I have no idea of what the blank you are talking about when you say that I have been given things from the govt. nor do you. Try to stop making things up. And yes, when I mean the fed govt should stop all handouts, I mean all. I have made that clear in the past, but you seem to have the attention span of a 2 year old. No more subsidies, no exemption of anti trust for insurance companies, or the unions. No "investments" by the feds in chosen industries. I can't go back in time to the 1800's, so I'm hardly going to try to undo history. Let's remember that a lot of the land "given" by the feds was never theirs to give. They just had the military muscle to back up what they were doing. I'm not rich nor ever have been. Not by any definition in this country. Yes, I have savings. Because my wife and I lived within our means (never any new cars or TVs or furniture) and were willing to live in what the feds consider sub-standard housing. I will be happy to forgo all of my SS and Medicare provided they give back, with compounded interest, every dime taken from me at gun point while I earned a living. I'll still lose big time, but it would still be worth it. I would be fascinated to know when you lefties are going to start installing sprinklers in your houses and start paying extra taxes that you think are so necessary. Or maybe you're waiting for uncle sugar to provide a program for that.

[Douglas Keachie]

ScottO

Have purchased a large collection of sprinklers from Habitat Restore, on my "Honey Do" list, and have Water tanks, pool (also on "Honey do"), hoses, nozzles, high pressure pump, and plenty of brush clearing gear, none of it paid for by the gov. Did pay $1300 to have 1/2 the trees around the house felled, and spent none months cleaning up the mess. Gov payments, $0.

After 30 years of marriage, we bought our first new car three years ago, an Impreza.

You be speaking German if the government hadn't given you anything. Remember, the government is in reality, "us" That's why they call it the USa.

[Scott Obermuller]

First of all Douglas, you tried (without knowing anything about me) to act as if I were well off. When I pointed out I'm not, the thing you should have done was to at least acknowledge you were wrong. Instead, you start trying to out-poor me. Your level of income or living standard was never in question here. Then you try to claim that national defense is a "gift" like an entitlement. It's what the fed govt is supposed to do. It's in the Constitution.You might try reading it some time. It's not a gift. We pay our taxes and expect the feds to do what they are supposed to do. Glad to hear you're going to stop the forest fires. Funny how you can be all self sufficient - why don't you expect everyone else to be? I didn't hear about the extra taxes you pay.... did you forget already? The govt did it's job and kept us protected in WWII - too bad it now takes our money and is making sure we will have to learn Chinese.