Norway Terror (updated)

George Rebane

So now Norway has Anders Behring Breivik, its own equivalent of America’s Timothy McVey.  We read that the 32 year old farmer has killed almost one hundred people, personally murdering eighty some by shooting each of them at close range.  He also posted a YouTube video (now removed) of himself declaring his terror rampage before first setting off a bomb in the center of Oslo, and then going out to a nearby island, disguised as a policeman, to shoot the youth gathered there.

We read that Breivik was a declared Christian “extreme right winger with anti-Muslim sentiments.”  He was disturbed by what he saw as the permissive multiculturalism that has given rise to the Islamic enclaves throughout Europe including his native Norway.  Apparently this attack was in planning for almost two years, and was to serve as a dramatic call for European “martyrs” to begin some sort of violent pushback of Islam and Marxism that he has described in a long “compendium/book” he titled 2083 – A European Declaration of Independence.  I have not read it, but it can be downloaded from google docs here.

What we do know is that he ordered six tons of fertilizer from which he presumably made at least one bomb, and that the island massacre lasted 90 minutes before the Norwegian SWAT team finally arrived after 40 minutes, and then took another 50 minutes to stop the killing.  Apparently there was not a single law-abiding gun on the island that could have saved lives during that interminably long killing spree.

It is hard for me to conclude that this was the act of a sane individual.  Perhaps he offers an explanation in his compendium as to how he thought that his terror would start some kind of spontaneous attack on people of non-European cultures.  But to a sane person, no matter his politics or sentiments about Islam and western culture, this act did nothing to achieve his declared end.  In fact, I think, like Timothy McVey, this was the most horrifically inappropriate and misguided use of violence that Breivik could have conceived – an assessment I cannot lay at the feet of Islamic terrorists who have so far used worldwide terror effectively to advance their ends.

Now we await for the investigation to reveal the complete and, perhaps, a different story about Breivik.  I am saddened that so many people had to die at the hand of a twisted individual, especially one who claims to be a defender of western culture.

Your thoughts?

[update]  One question that occurs during events like these is ‘to what extent is this a canary in the mine?’  It is usually at the edges that society first shows that something with it is awry.  The mentally or economically frail begin to visibly protest existing conditions, and then start to act like outlaws.  Wealthy and advanced societies usually react positively if not always in a timely manner to such signs.

If shopkeepers begin reporting that bread is being stolen from their shops, and this becomes more widespread, then an enlightened collective would be better served by finding the cause of the problem instead of just hiring more police.  If ill-schooled students graduate in greater numbers when more money is put into education, then an enlightened collective would conclude that there might be other factors at work than lack of funds.

But here we come into a conundrum – ascribing cause.  Upon reflection philosophers and scientists have come to understand that cause is ascriber-specific.  People with different belief systems, knowledge, intelligence, experience, and data can look at an event and ascribe markedly (wildly?) different precursors that were its actual cause.  To the extent that a culture and/or ideology are shared by a society, they will tend to interpret things in a more like manner and come to similar conclusions as to cause.  And the opposite is also true as we witness every day (and also on these pages).

So, in Norway was this madman a harbinger, a fraying edge that declares existence of a deeper problem in Norway’s European population?  What caused him to go on his murderous rampage, and what should the Norwegians do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences?

(In a future post I am planning to do a piece on causality that may help in the discussion of events like this and broader aspects of assessing public policy.  The effort always is to promote complete, clear, and concise communication on these pages.  Hard duty.)

Comments

[Todd Juvinall]

I did a post yesterday and used news reports that some Islamic group claimed credit then that was tossed when they caught this fellow. I know the loony left is already trying to claim the "Christian right" is somehow connected to this nut. No one I am familiar with claiming to be a Christian would murder so my conclusion is anyone can clai to be anything. Also, the press will begin to try and claim all people on the "right" are now suspect because this nut says he was from the right. This tragedy of mayhem and murder has been done by a person who must be insane. I pray for all the victims and if I could go back in time and help them I would.

[Russ Steele]

There are no concealed carry permits allow in Norway. According to Wikipedia:

The owner must always have a good reason to bring the weapon to a public place. Such reasons include transportation to a range or hunting area, transportation for repairs, or for maintenance and hobby activities.

During transportation, the weapon must be empty and concealed, but not worn on the body, and under the constant supervision of the owner. This applies equally to replicas, air guns and decommissioned firearms.

Many report say the killer had automatic weapons, which are banned from civilian ownership in Norway. Yet, he managed to get an automated weapon.

Once again, gun control has proven to be useless, if not a contributing factor to this tragic event. Since defensive personal guns are not allowed in Norway, the shooter knew he would not have to take any cover, thus allowing unfettered access to his victims.

[Mikey McD]

This was not the act of a Christian... see the 10 Commandments. No doubts that this was the act of an insane individual.

It will be more fruitful to learn of the experiences/world view which led to such a state of mind.

I need to get my CCW.

[Steve Enos]

Interesting and very telling that George and others here use a lot of their comments to discuss gun rights and gun laws.

Russ's post is all about the gun laws in Norway and gun control... a so VERY telling look into Russ's mind and what he thinks is the critical issue of this tragic event.

Let's see... didn't this all start with a massive bombing?

I have been reading parts of Anders Behring Breivik's 1,500 page rant and a lot of it reads like it was copied for this blog.

PS: I'm a VERY strong supporter of guns rights in the USA. I shoot at the range a number of times a month, I'm a former deputy sheriff and federal drug enforcement officer and have real world CCW experience.

[Russ Steele]

Steve E,

You wrote:

I have been reading parts of Anders Behring Breivik's 1,500 page rant and much it reads like it was copied for [from?] this blog.

Before we buy into your BS accusation let us see some direct comparisons. I suggest you find some direct quotes in the Anders Behring Breivik "rant" and then show us where they appeared in Ruminations? We are waiting for you to stand behind your veiled smear of this blog with some facts.

[Steve Enos]

Hey Russ do your own reading of Anders Behring Breivik's 1,500 page rant. But it's mostly full of:

Anti-Muslim, anti Islamic rants, the need to stop multiculturalism, Marxism and the socialists that are destroying the county and Europe, a call to take back Europe and take our country back... sound familiar?

Russ, but you just keep posting about guns laws in Norway.

[Todd Juvinall]

Russ he is posting this all over the other blogs as well. When he tells us he was a cop and a DEA agent he is simply fibbing. There is no proof in that and there is no proof he is a licensed planner here in California. I think we should simply apply the term master fibber to him. He has no employees and no land here that can be identified in the public record. I think he may be a ghost.

[Steve Enos]

Todd, not DEA. As I have said I'm a former federal drug enforcement officer. The feds have a number of agencies that address drugs, do some research.

And as I have asked you before Todd:

I'll bet you $1,000 cash that what I say is true. You and I put up the cash and we give it to George to hold. I provide proof to George and I get your $1,000 cash... it's that simple.

So Todd... wull you back up your mouth?... I bet you don't have the stones to back up your mouth. I have my $1,000 cash ready... let's do this!

[stevenfrisch]

Bullhockey. Go read it for yourselves. It reads like a normal day on the Nevada County right wing blogosphere!

[Steve Enos]

Steve F.... some of it reads like the Tea Party "take back OUR county" rants and then there is the simular use of violent terms to start a revolution and the need to stop the socialists and marxists.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Sounds like in thought he was kinda on target - his methods to achieve them are not acceptable

[Douglas Keachie]

Well Todd, where's your $1,000?

[Douglas Keachie]

So many people have there land here held by trusts that they control, registered in other states, that reviewing the local tax rolls is practically worthless when attempting to identify the holdings of any individual.

[D. King]

Watch the video here:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/see-the-video-anders-behring-breivik-posted-before-the-norway-massacre/

[stevenfrisch]

Well Todd, where is your $1000? and would you like to make a side bet?

[Paul Emery]

Dodger Todd is doing his dance again.

[Russ Steele]

Todd you have once again opened the door letting our local left lead us off the topic. They are so deft at changing the subject when they do not want to address the issues, so stopping opening the door for them. I could care less about what Enos was once, I am more interested in what he is now and his distorted views of the world. These side issue you keep bringing up just inhibit us for learning about the real Enos. Everyone, left and right, needs to stop cluttering up the comments with boring crap that is not relevant to the discussion.

We all know what Steven Frisch is, now let's get back to the issues of this post and let the left reveal themselves.

[Paul Emery]

By far the greatest terror threat the world faces is from deranged individuals.

[George Rebane]

PaulE, unless you differentiate individuals from the Maos, Stalins, Hitlers, and the ayatollahs, your profound statement appears to be a tautology.

[Todd Juvinall]

The issue is whether this is a deranged individual or a deranged individual who is part of a larger plot. The left is now trying to smear this blog and other conservative blogs by making the intimated and actually open claim there is complicity n philosophy. I simply attempt to point out the leftwing hypocrisy by their actual words and deeds. They then go into pack mentality (just like dogs) and attack me. I don't really care if they attack me because they are not important to me. What is important to me is their impugning folks I care about and who share my philosophy. When I confront these liberal nuts with their own words and ask for them to back up their claims they never do and they attack (Alinsky tactics). I understand that our side is usually non confrontational when these nuts attack and I understand the desire to get along. But, like the old saying, don't befriend a rattlesnake because he will bite you.

The nut in Norway apparently acted alone and though he claims he is a Christian, he is not. The same nuts from the left, Frisch, Enos and DK, cry us a river when someone here says the terrorists of Islamic bent may be a example of Muslims, yet do not give the same leeway for a Christian. They are simply being outed by me for their total hypocrisy.

[Steve Enos]

So Todd, I have my $1,000 and the balls to back it up... so where's your $1,000 and your balls "Dodger Todd"?

[Steve Enos]

uss, here's some info on the gun laws in Norway:

Arild Groven, secretary-general of the Norwegian Shooting Association, a sports shooting group, confirmed that Breivik had belonged to Oslo Pistol Club, one of 520 clubs in the association.

He said the process of obtaining a handgun license for sports shooting was strict, requiring a safety certification and a police background check. Fully automatic weapons are illegal here he said.

In California to purchase a handgun one must:

Obtain a handgun safety certification
and under go a background check. Fully automatic weapons are illegal here too (mostly).

The real issues is there is a very big difference in culture between the USA and Norway on guns and violence. One just needs to check the data on the number of shootings and murders in the USA vs. Norway for a better uderstanding of this.

[Bonnie M]

Interesting discussion. Last night on the news (13)the reporter mentioned that the terrorist was angry with the labor unions (although he was a former union member) and the youth group he attacked were members of a union. So what are we to believe?

[Common Cents]

Enos, your inability to contribute to meaningful dialogue is (again) well documented. Your words and action show the hate boiling inside you. You will never gain the control you so aggressively seek of others, therefore I fear your hatred will only grow.

Should it shock us that Enos' power trip/control complex led him into law enforcement?

[Steve Enos]

The following paints a clear picture and it sure has a number of similarities with some here in the USA:

The police identified him as a right-wing fundamentalist Christian, while acquaintances described him as a gun-loving Norwegian obsessed with what he saw as the threats of multiculturalism and Muslim immigration.

A police official, Roger Andresen, said at a televised news conference. "What we know is that he is right wing and a Christian fundamentalist."

Breivik claimed to be part of a small group that intends to "seize political and military control of Western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda."

Breivik was also believed to have posted a video Friday calling for Christian conservatives in Europe to rise up violently as a modern-day version of the Crusades-era Knights Templar to save Europe from Islamic totalitarianism.

He had been a member of the right-wing Progress Party, which began as an anti-tax protest and has been stridently anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim. Breivik quit the party in 2006, apparently disappointed by the party's move toward the center... does this sound familiar?

"This is the Norwegian equivalent to Timothy McVeigh," the right-wing American who blew up a government building in Oklahoma City in 1995, said Marcus Buck, a political scientist at the University of Tromso in northern Norway. "This is right-wing domestic terrorism.

[Steve Enos]

George's update above states:

"What CAUSED HIM to go on his murderous rampage, and what should the Norwegians do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences"

"What CAUSED HIM to go on his murderous rampage"... so that's the question that needs to be asked?

It's like a guy that beats his wife and then says to the cops... she caused me to do it.

It's like saying... "what should beaten wives do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences"

Yikes, is this a telling statement from George that shows how he looks at this tragic event.

[D. King]

Here are others with radical views on multiculturalism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355961/Nicolas-Sarkozy-joins-David-Cameron-Angela-Merkel-view-multiculturalism-failed.html

[Greg Goodknight]

This fits my expectations; the loony left around here is once again trying to tar the folks they love to hate with a wide brush dipped in far away blood.

I guess the Norwegian bachelor farmers grow differently in the home country than they do in Lake Wobegone.

Far right wing is something different in Norway than in the US, and IMHO none of the right wing bloggers in Nevada County even make it to "far right". One thing I found to be incredible was that it was a liberal political party summer camp that was hit. Not Scouts, or the equivalent of a Boy's or Girl's club, or something regional where all beliefs mix. A fun political getaway for the younger set. It sometimes take me aback how un-American non-American european customs are.

I can't imagine sending my kid to a political party's camp, can you?

How quickly the local left forgets the left wing nutcase in Arizona. Mental illness is an equal opportunity affliction.

[George Rebane]

SteveE, I don't know how much longer we can support your tutoring requirements. Of course the prime question arising from this is to identify an operative cause for the behavior in order to come up with a reasonable policy of remediation and prevention of future such occurrences.

If your ilk does not understand this, then you really don't belong here to discuss such issues. However, there are countless other blogs, local and national, that will welcome such wisdom and provide a supportive home for it. Here you are again becoming a source of heat without light.

[Russ Steele]

Greg,

They forgot because he was not a right wing nutcase. He was just mentally ill, as I am will to bet a lunch that Anders Behring Breivik will also be declared mentally ill.

[Douglas Keachie]

"The nut in Norway apparently acted alone and though he claims he is a Christian, he is not."

So if this is the case, those who claim they are Muslims and commit terrorists acts, are also, "not Muslims." Your logic would dictate this to be true.

[George Rebane]

DougK, check your reasoning. Muslim terrorists are actively recruited, blow themselves and others up in hordes numbering now in the high hundreds, attacks breaching multiple decades, launched by well-funded and led religious organizations citing scriptual commission, with detailed public declarations of intent and objectives, and with their acts subsequently celebrated and honored by millions of co-religionists.

Did you and SteveE take the same curriculum in reasoning and logic?

[Dave Cranfield]

I received an email from my cousin in Oppdahl, Norway this afternoon. All in Norwegian text. Oppdahl is about 400 KM north of Oslo. My mother frequently spoke Norwegian around our house when we were kids and my sister and I sort of picked up the language. Between my sister and I, we managed to (hopefully) make a sensible translation.

As received.
Kjære David
Den forferdelige hendelser av fredag ettermiddag har rystet oss alle Selv om vi forblir i Oppdahl, langt vekk fra åstedet, er landet vårt i sorg. Det er nå søndag kveld og gatene i Oppdahl er fortsatt i live med mennesker, sammen med mange stearinlys til minne om våre falne borgere. Takk for at du tenker på Kurt, jentene og I. Vi håper du og Helene kommer til Norge og besøke oss snart. Love, Anna

Translated?: Dear David The horror of events on Friday afternoon have us all shook up. Even though we are in Oppdahl, a great distance from the scene, our country mourns. It is Sunday night and the roads in Oppdahl have many people on them with lit candles to memorialize our (dead?) citizens. Thank you for remembering Kurt, the daughters and I. We hope you and Helene will visit us in Norway soon. Love, Anna.

If there are any Norseman out there who can make a better translation, please let me know.

[D. King]

Douglas Keachie Said:

"So if this is the case, those who claim they are Muslims and commit terrorists acts, are also, "not Muslims." Your logic would dictate this to be true."

Tell me you know better Douglas?

"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Interesting discussion. Last night on the news (13)the reporter mentioned that the terrorist was angry with the labor unions (although he was a former union member) and the youth group he attacked were members of a union. So what are we to believe? Bonnie

maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrnation camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims - this loss national identity is spreading all over Europe as the EU takes away each countries soveriegnty to control its own borders and citizens

All I can think of, I can understand it though, the Brits feel it also.

[Steve Enos]

This is some real sick stuff by Dixon:

"maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrnation camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims".

WOW... now that's some sick stuff to think and post.

[George Rebane]

Re Dixon's 323PM comment. What Dixon here presents is a plausible line of reasoning that may have been in Breivik's mind. Without pinning a truth value on that line reasoning, its use by Breivik is an explanation that should should not be dismissed until further evidence comes in. Through such analysis we begin to make progress in first looking into the minds of Norway's 'Breiviks' (yes, there may be more out there), and then deciding how valid such propositions are, and then deciding what should be done about it.

And now it appears Dixon nailed it, as corroborated by the latest report from Norway.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903461104576463592110417526.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

"WOW... now that's some sick stuff to think and post." And with such baseless pronouncements, I think most RR readers would be very interested to know how the SteveEs of the land would instead pursue such an investigation. In any event, thanks for the counterpoint.

[Steve Enos]

It’s really this simple.

There is a big difference between talking about Breiviks' possible own self motivations vs. making a statement about one’s own postion about the camp that was attacked.

Dixon did not say it was Breiviks' possible motivation. Instead Dixon said “maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrination camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims".

It’s one thing to say it was Breiviks' possible motivation, it’s a whole different thing for Dixion to say he thinks the camp was “really evil” and the “camp target was a indoctrination camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims".

Two very different things. One talks about Breiviks' possible motivations and the other takes a position on what the camp "is". Dixon stated his positon about what he thinks the camp "is".

[Todd Juvinall]

SteveE should simply go beat his gums on a blog that cares about his crap. The fact a country like Norway, terrorized by the Nazi's during WW2 would produce some like this murderer is incredible. Also, to murder his fellow countrymen to prove a point shows he is a mentally ill nut. Enos is simply doing the Alinsky tactic og guilt by, in gthis case, not even association, to denigrate jis hated enemies, Christians and conservatives. This is a line from the WSJ article that cements Dixon's words about the nut and tosses Enos view into the crapper. The political landscape of Norway is truly left, not right and they don't even have a mainstream conservative party there. From the WSJ

"Norway doesn't have a mainstream far-right party."

So if they have no far right party they must have center and center left.

[D. King]

Todd said:

"Norway doesn't have a mainstream far-right party."

So if they have no far right party they must have center and center left.

And they don't like Israel.

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/boycott-israel.jpg

[George Rebane]

Is it only me, or do others also notice that the progressives have a lock on psychoanalysis? They all seem to know what we are really thinking regardless of what we say. And then they just blurt it out and tell everyone. Tough crowd to deal with.

[stevenfrisch]

So it is official from the mouth of Todd, far-right and conservative are the same thing. Remember that for future reference.

[RL Crabb]

Yeah, George, but isn't it fun to have total strangers tell you what you think? And it's a lot cheaper than a shrink.

[Larry Wirth]

Think I'll wait a few days (or a few weeks) to form an opinion on this one. First 'take,' a nutter, A-Z, period. We won't know his true motivations until more is in the can. Let's revisit this conversation in a week or so, ok?

[Mike Thornton]

Gee, nothing has changed here!

Christian "terrorist" goes on rampage and we see none of the hyperbolic rhetoric that we would have seem had he been Muslim.
Not only that, but we get to hear what amounts to excuses and explanations of why the poor guy was basically "forced" to kill by the Muslim "threat".

Same old ridiculousness for the same old ridiculous!

[Russ Steele]

I see the left wing re-enforcements have arrived. Welcome back Mike.

[Todd Juvinall]

I can now see in full force that liberalism is truly a mental disorder. George has it right. These leftwingers just can't help themselves and keep telling us what we really think and believe. What a hoot!

[Steve Enos]

His 1,500-page manifesto lays it out. It shows he was following American bloggers and writers who have "warned" for years about the threat from Islam.

From his manifesto it's very clear he was deeply influenced by a small group of American bloggers and writers who have warned for years about the threat from Islam, lacing his 1,500-page manifesto with quotations from them, as well as copying multiple passages from the tract of the Unabomber.

In the document he posted online, Anders Behring Breivik showed that he had closely followed the acrimonious American debate over Islam.

His manifesto, which denounced Norwegian politicians as failing to defend the country from Islamic influence quoted Robert Spencer who operates the Jihad Watch Web site, 64 times and he cited other Western writers who shared his view that Muslim immigrants pose a grave danger to Western culture.

[George Rebane]

It appears that no matter the source or how it's twisted, Dixon's assessment was correct. Breivik did use what he believed to be the Muslim encroachment of Norway as his reasoned basis for planning and carrying out attacks on those he thought responsible for the compromise of his homeland.

Given that, what should be the next step for the Norwegian government and people? And what should, say, Denmark and Sweden do - both have been warned of similar dangers from Islamic terrorists and their own Breiviks?

[Douglas Keachie]

These days sending your kid to a fundamentalist summer camp is equivalent to sending them to a political camp.

[Douglas Keachie]

"would Jesus vote Republican" 10,000 plus hits

"would Jesus vote Democratic" 4 hits

Someone explain that?

[Douglas Keachie]

Prove it, Keachie!

OK, here is a nice review of Jesus Camp, complete with credits:

"Indoctrinating the kids, 27 November 2007
9/10
Author: Dennis Littrell (dalittrell@yahoo.com) from SoCal

As the closing credits roll we hear Norman Greenbaum's "Spirit in the Sky." The lyric goes something like, "I got a friend in Jesus...He's going to set me up with the spirit in the sky...when I die...I'm going to go to the place that's the best." A similar point-blank irony suffuses this engaging documentary by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady. Norman Greenbaum had his tongue firmly in cheek, of course, but Becky Fischer and her fellow molders of children are serious. She believes in indoctrinating the children and she says so. She points out that in Muslim lands the children are similarly indoctrinated, and even more so. It is a war. The word "war" is used repeatedly at Jesus Camp which was located (ironically, I guess) in Devil's Lake, North Dakota. It's a war that must be won, and implicitly the war is against liberals and mainstream American culture, but explicitly against science, especially biological evolution, and against other faiths. Becky pretends to apologize before telling us that Christianity has The Truth and therefore should triumph over other religions, creeds and cultures. She believes that. There can be no question about the sincerity of her beliefs.

What struck me most powerfully is what was REALLY being taught at Jesus Camp. That is, methods of indoctrination. Behind all the rhetoric about Jesus and being saved was the political agenda for the fundamentalist movement. Part Nazi rally, part revival meeting, part Brainwashing 101, what really came across were all the persuasive techniques that Becky Fischer, Ted Haggard and the others had perfected. Suffer the little children indeed. Get 'em while they're young, Becky tells us. The impressions made and beliefs instilled in children before the age of, say eight, will last a lifetime, she tells us.

She says she loves America. We see out of a car window the endless sameness of asphalt roads, telephone poles and electric wires, KFC restaurants and car dealerships that form the main streets of most any American town. I doubt that she loves the America of the Museum of Modern Art or the America of Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson or the redwoods or the Grand Canyon. Becky says that she loves America, and then she says she prays to get away from this awful world--or words to that effect.

I find it tough to find credence in people who devote their lives to manipulating the emotions of children in an effort to create a new generation of opportunists (or zombies) to mindlessly champion the slogans of their political and social agenda. How sad it was to see young Levi O'Brien--bright, talented and impressionable beyond his years--being molded into a future TV evangelist. He will learn the clever deceit practiced not by people like Becky Fischer, who as I said, is a true believer, but more like Ted Haggard himself or any number of moneyed evangelical personalities who preach one thing in public and in their private lives do something else. He will learn the same techniques that Becky and Ted have learned, techniques of rhetoric and persuasion, of indoctrination and the manipulation of emotions. He will learn what leads to success in evangelical land, that truth comes from religious authority and political and economic power, and that anyone who thinks differently is an enemy.

Becky Fischer thinks liberal America will be worried after seeing this documentary. Her ability to mold children into her brand of Christianity should scare us, she thinks. But revivalist America comes and goes with the passing of time. We've seen it all before. What is different today is that evangelicals were able to elect somebody like George W. Bush and to control the Congress and cow the media. I think America has seen where that leads, to the weakening and embarrassment of America; and I am betting that America has learned its lesson and that the politicians who would do the work of the faith-based, ignorance-based, head-in-the-sand, evangelical movement will lose out to more enlightened leadership. After all, unlike Becky, most of us and our children must live in this world without the fantasy of imminent rapture, and therefore must work toward making the world a better place for all of us."

[stevenfrisch]

I guess you guys will just have to spend a little more time on the couch. We can explore your propensity to transfer frustration over modern society and its diminution of your social position vis a vis people who were previously members of the underclass into political theory;)

[Douglas Keachie]

Gues who wrote this?

Around 2000, I realized that the democratic struggle against the Islamization of Europe, and European multiculturalism, was lost. It is simply not possible to compete with democratic regimes that import millions of voters. 40 years of dialogue with the cultural Marxists / multiculturalists had ended up as a disaster. It would now only take 50-70 years before we, Europeans, were the minority. So I decided to explore alternative forms of opposition. But the biggest problem then was that there were no options for me at all. There was no known armed culturally conservative, or Christian, anti-Jihad movement.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2084895,00.html#ixzz1T5qwhxwy

[Michael Anderson]

I think there's something in the water up here...sheesh.

[Michael Anderson]

Set your calibration engines to stun--this is what a far lefty actually looks like, since so many of you seem to not have a clue: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/opinion/25krugman.html?_r=1&hp

[Larry Wirth]

Doug K, as far as I know, you wrote this. Not saying it's original, but until now, it's a point of view I'd never heard expressed so clearly.

George, as I follow your blog, I can't help wonder what you did to attract so many truly deranged readers from the slums of leftism. Sheesh...indeed.

[George Rebane]

DougK, what proposition is your 1033PM comment supposed to support?

SteveF, "... transfer frustrations over modern society ..." ??? We were attempting to discuss a madman's response to a widely acknowledged social phenomenon that is sweeping Europe. What are you contributing?

[George Rebane]

LarryW, I have a flawed policy for managing comments on RR, and seem to be hanging on to a futile hope that the ideas herein will attract more than people with mud buckets. I have had partial success in this, but only enough to keep me going.

All recommendations for improving these comment streams are welcomed and seriously studied.

[Mike Thornton]

Lets face it, guys, the Oslo killer is a fundamentalist Christian, terrorist assassin who is every bit an Al Qaeda "soul mate". Let's face another fact. The only difference between this guy and many, many of the "regressives" here in the USA is that he actually followed through on his rhetoric and "put his money where his mouth was"!
He IS you! And that's why you're spinning around like "tops" trying so very, very hard to make it/him something other than what he is, a "politically motivated right wing terrorist killer" and if he's "crazy" he's no crazier than most of you and the majority of the people you claim to support!

[George Rebane]

MikeT, thanks for your usual incisive analysis and conclusions. Maybe communicating them directly to the Norwegian government will save that nation considerable time and money in their investigation.

And your conclusive accusations of the rest of us are vintage Thornton (cum Saul Alinsky). All that remains now is revealing your prescription to cure the ills that surround you.

[D. King]

It never ceases to amaze me, how after a tragedy, the left gets giddy.

[stevenfrisch]

George< i was responding to your analogy regarding psychoanalysis.

[Walt]

Why is it when we hear of a shooting rampage,, it's usually done by a kook Leftist? ( FACT)
Here is something to think about. Just how " motivated" are the mine haters? What "extremes" would they go to when IMM gets approval? Would a new chapter of E.L.F. suddenly show up in town?
You can surely bet that destruction and vandalism will occur.Death threats, ETC...
OH Ya,,, it could happen.( more than likely) So If and when it does,, just who will our " peaceful" Progressives blame for doing that damage? The Mine of course. " It was their fault... They opened.". We are protecting the environment from the dangers of mining". Yes,,,,, it could happen. And another yes,,, we do have people around here that ARE that radical.

[Steve Enos]

Walt posts... "when IMM gets approval" and rants about enviro's. Sorry Walt the word "when" is wrong, it will never get approved for so many, many reasons.

Walt... please get back on track and back on topic.

[Douglas Keachie]

GRebane, Greg Goodknight made the comment about sending kids to politically oriented summer camps (in apparent amazement that anyone here would do such a thing), and I merely supplied such a camp with a far right fundy Christian stance, to show him that not only do such summer camps exist in the USA, but also in some political and political/religious combos, that he might not want to acknowledge.

"Doug K, as far as I know, you wrote this. Not saying it's original, but until now, it's a point of view I'd never heard expressed so clearly.

George, as I follow your blog, I can't help wonder what you did to attract so many truly deranged readers from the slums of leftism. Sheesh...indeed."

Glad you acknowledge that this is deranged. If you had followed the link, you'd know it came from the Norway homegrown terrorist's writings. I did not write any part of it.

[D. King]

Just a general question; do our lefty / progressive friends take responsibility for the failed experiment in multiculturalism?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355961/Nicolas-Sarkozy-joins-David-Cameron-Angela-Merkel-view-multiculturalism-failed.html

[Todd Juvinall]

Thornton is not to be taken seriously since we all learned he was simply a run of the mill bloviator on KVMR and a very biased "news" guy. He cracks me up.

[Steve Enos]

Hey George... do you apply any standards to Todd's endless, off topic, personal attacks?

George... why do you allow Todd to do this all the time and fail to address his actions here? George you "council" others about their personal attack posts, so why not do the same for Todd?

[Mike Thornton]

And Glenn Beck proves my point!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/25/998527/-Glenn-Beck-compares-Norwegian-campers-to-the-Hitler-youth?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+%28Daily+Kos%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

[George Rebane]

MikeT, great link. Everyone not familiar with leftwing 'logic' and the tenor of discourse from that ideology should definitely visit the site. The article itself reads like some comments on these pages. Wow!

For the careful reader, comparing an annual political indoctrinaton for future Labor Party leaders to a tea party sponsored civics lesson celebrating America is a bit of a stretch.

BTW, I don't see anything wrong with Norway's long-ruling Labor Party bending twigs so that they grow into the proper left-leaning trees; this no more than our political parties hold retreats for young Democrats and Republicans. And during the 1930s Hitler Youth camps were legally held both in Germany and the United States.

I think the problem that people have with such camps (as did Breivik) is what they don't agree with that is taught there, because no doubt such youth indoctrination is extremely effective. This has been known for millenia by governments and organized religions.

During the latter part of the 20th century even the American progressive movement discovered the power of getting hold of the little darlings while they're young, as witnessed by these ideologues gaining almost total control of our public schools through politically active and ideologically calcified teachers' unions.

[Mike Thornton]

Gee, George, talk about "logic". When you guys do it, its a "civics lesson", but if someone else does it (that you don't like) it's "indoctrination".
Amazing!
But nevertheless, the bottom line remains. Once again a Christian "terrorist" commits political murder, inspired by American right wing rhetoric and you guys are trying to obfuscate the issue. You are once again making excuses for political violence when it supports your goals. You've done it before, I knew you would be doing it this time and I know you'll be doing it, each and every time it happens in the future!

[Todd Juvinall]

George, remember, these fellows don't even like the Boy Scouts but they love the indoctrination camps for leftwingers. Amazing.

[Todd Juvinall]

Oh, and I listened to the link to Glenn Beck and surprise! Beck condemned the man and called him no better than Al Queda. So I would suggest people listen to the things they supply here since now MT has a huge pie in the face. Self thrown!

[George Rebane]

Yes, it's all indoctrination MikeT. By "civics lesson" I was attempting to communicate a right/left ideology neutral indoctrination that should have nothing to do with Republican or Democrat viewpoints.

"... making excuses for political violence ...", "You've done it before,..." ??? What? Where? Are these gratuitous accusations, or some more amateur psychoanalytics?

MikeT, your recent absence was a such refreshing interlude - how about a reprise?

[Mike Thornton]

More on the "Christian Jihad", from someone who should know.

http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151751/christian_jihad_why_we_should_worry_about_right-wing_terror_attacks_like_norway%27s_in_the_us_/

"Onward Christian Soldiers"

[Todd Juvinall]

George, your last post was a hoot! Right over his head though.

[Bonnie M]

As my husband often says, "Paper stands still for whatever is written on it." That doesn't mean it's the truth. It's up to us to go to the source if we want to seek the truth...and consequently it frees us from confusing conjecture. I get a kick out of those who use Christ to prove this or that argument, but don't know anything about him, other than what they've been told by others. Thanks George, for clarifying the news report we heard regarding the terrorist's resentment towards Norway's government labor party. The muslim connection reminds me of what Nikita Khrushchev (as first Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union) said many years ago when he was asked what religion he preferred. He chose Islam. I suppose he chose it for it's totalitarian rule like the Communist (labor) party that ruled Russia following the revolution. Amazing how it just keeps going...like the energized rabbit.

[Todd Juvinall]

Oh, here is a line from MT's fav guy Sheaffer's Wikipedia entry, "On February 7, 2008, Schaeffer endorsed Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination,"

Yep, just as I thought.

[Mike Thornton]

[Removed gratuitous comment denigrating RR readers and me without contributing anything to the topic at hand. gjr]

[D. King]

From my earlier posts:

David Cameron U.K. P.M.

"Cameron launched a scathing attack earlier this month(s) on 30 years of multiculturalism in Britain warning that it fostered extremism."

Again, does the left take responsibility?

See, before multiculturalism, there wasn’t any!

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Thanks george for kudo's - in a country like Norway apparently he felt such frustration because there is no alternative. The US and other EU countries at least have some political means for change, apparently not so much there. It also appears that "Christian" has absolutely nothing to do with anything - other than he's not a muslim - not many Hindu's there I suspect.
This is a nationalistic issue that is becoming more wide spread in europe as the EU encroches with their Socialistic/Multicultural plan for the continent - most do not like being called Europians - they prefer Brit-German - Irish. The NAZI's like them or not rode a wave of Nationalism to power after WW1, they didn't start out with a plan to kill jews but it was german Nationalism at its core - those same feelings still exist today in all of Europe to some extent.

Kinda like our resistence to Globel Governence - we are Americans and want to stay that way - just say'in

Thank You Bonnie for the post that inspired it, nice to see you here.

[Paul Emery]

This conversation is making me sick to my stomach. It's accomplishing exactly what Behring Breivik wanted.

[Steve Enos]

So George...

You removed a post by Mike Thornton and posted:

[Removed gratuitous comment denigrating RR readers and me without contributing anything to the topic at hand. gjr]
Posted by: Mike Thornton | 25 July 2011 at 02:37 PM

So wil lyou apply the very same stands to Todd's personal attack post?:

"Thornton is not to be taken seriously since we all learned he was simply a run of the mill bloviator on KVMR and a very biased "news" guy. He cracks me up"
Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 25 July 2011 at 11:35 AM

George... do you apply posting standards to all or just some?

[George Rebane]

No, I'm probably not being fair, but MikeT's comment was a bit beyond ToddJ's - neither added to the discussion, one was just more broadly egregious. I seek refuge in what a wise coach told me years ago about the risk in fairness, "Never seek justice, just mercy."

[Mike Thornton]

More proof that what I'm saying about right wing bloggers is indeed relevant and in fact a major topic of discussion on the internet today.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/25/998605/-Right-wing-bloggers-suddenly-circumspect-in-wake-of-Norway-attacks-?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+%28Daily+Kos%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

All anyone has to do is to go through past posts on RR and they'll find that what I'm saying is correct!

George will NEVER apply the same standard to Todd or any other "regressive"! George is as biased and partisan as they come. He doesn't like what I post, because I call him and his fellow regressives out for exactly what they are!

[Steve Enos]

[Removed another comment continuing to criticize my admittedly faulty management of RR comments. Removal of further such diatribes will not be acknowledged. This is becoming a pain in the ass. Capiche? gjr]

[George Rebane]

MikeT, thanks for the continued reference to dailykos.com. I'm not sure who all takes that site's output for anything other than professing the hard left agenda (as is their every right to do).

And all you have to do is to produce one citation on RR that has me promoting terror or political violence, else you're history here until you do.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Mr Thornton I pesume you are correct on your read of george, as he pointe dout to Steve- although you forget one major factor - he owns the place.

I don't think George or anyone else here or any blogger has condoned what was done - in the trying to understand it you have to face certain realities for his motivation - and your incessent whining about someone else doesn't change any of them.

Doesn't your paryer rug need washing or something

[Steve Enos]

" Capiche?"... yep, two sets of standards here.

[Paul Emery]

Dixon

"in the trying to understand it you have to face certain realities for his motivation "

Are you willing to provide the same dictum to the perpetrators of 9-11 ?

[Greg Goodknight]

Enos, speaking of double standards, why your apparent double standard over at the wingnut Big Boy's Blog? All you have to do to get *banned* over there is to win a few arguments.

[Ben Emery]

Didn't read the thread, I work outside and don't have the time, but can only assume the dialogue didn't go this direction.

Horrific acts are possible by extreme sects of any group. I think the response is just as important as the act itself.

Norway is much more liberal than Clinton administration. My guess they will handle this tragedy with faith in the justice system. Terrorist acts are criminal acts perpetrated by extreme fringes of political or religious faiths. Clinton handled the first trade center bombings like a crime and the perpetrators are in prison. McVeigh, Nichols, and Fortier received trials and were found guilty for their crimes.

George Bush had 19 extremists largely from Saudi Arabia 15/19 and went a totally different route of fear, weakness, exploitation, and stripping Americans of their civil liberties. No country attacked the US but we responded with attacks on countries that had very little or no connection to the attacks. George Bush declared war with military force on a emotion that cannot surrender making it a perpetual war, which creates more hatred towards the US.

[Todd Juvinall]

What is interesting to me regarding comments like BenE's is his total lack of history. PaulE is the same. The Arabs have conquered where there are through force and intimidation and most of their land mass was secured within 50 years of Mohammed's death in the 600's. They have been in a perpetual jihad against all infidels since day one. I have said and referenced a number of times the book "Jefferson's War" as an early example of our country's interaction with the Islamic fanatics. I suggest Paul and Ben read it for some reference other than their own short life's experience. Regarding the rules here. This is George's blog and he can be whatever he chooses to do here. He puts out his ideas and ALLOWS us all to comment. There are people who debate rationally like George and there are flamethrowers and there are whiners. I would suggest that SteveE stay away and give his opinions to other blogs that enjoy his type of input. It does not seem to go over to well here. I have to boot some of his comments on my blog because of his incessant whining and massive cut/paste techniques. He also likes to keep pasting the same massive story's again after I remove them. He does this all over the blogosphere.

Anyway, it appears that the media is finally doing their job on this Norway tragedy and it is becoming obvious this murdering scumbag was never seen on church or seen practicing Christianity. A policeman made the original statement about this guys religion and no one checked it out. His manifesto reads like a secular pagan apparently and once again, the left has done their dirty deed trying to make someone a Christian murderer so they can gain some moral equivalency I guess. And once again, we defended our religion and the truth is now out and on our side.

[George Rebane]

Todd, you raise a good point on Breivik's supposed Christianity. The WSJ reported that Breivik declared that he was raised in a "liberal and secular household." The left's blogosphere is now hyper with painting him as a devout fundamental Christian, making explicit statements that he represents the pent up emotions of similarly characterized right wingers in the US. Everyone should strap on their bullet proof vests until we can get the guns out of the hands of the public (like in Norway).

[Bonnie M]

George, this is a wonderful blog where people can express themselves intelligently on current affairs. Thank you for keeping it that way.

[Douglas Keachie]

"Kinda like our resistence to Globel Governence - we are Americans and want to stay that way - just say'in"

We're NOT going to stay that way, if we keep on with the exportation of the jobs and the extreme concentration of the wealth in the hands of nobles and royal families of the Corporatocracy. Show me the difference between here and Saudi Arabia, except where maybe they have better health care for the masses.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Mr Emery I certainly would, they had completely different motivations but believe them enough to act.
I can acknowledge that fact without doubt. Not really sure where your going with it, the guy is reallt really pissed his Government is giving his country or at least half of it to the muslims. Back in the old days of the Ottoman Empire they at least had to kill some people to gain ground and enclaves, in the PC/UN world of today not so much - just say'in

[Douglas Keachie]

I see nobody disagrees with the notion that the summer camp documented in "Jesus Camp" is indeed a politically oriented summer camp.

[Douglas Keachie]

"Let's see...the confessed killer is anti-tax, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim. Remind you of any groups in the US?"

From FB, liberal NC circles.