My Photo

September 2014

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30        

BlogStats


« What’s a fair share in 2012? | Main | Employment 2022 (Addended) »

28 January 2012

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00e54f86f2ad88330167613691b4970b

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Ruminations - 28jan2012:

Comments

Russ Steele

George,

After building the Intel plant in Folsom Andy Grove, Board Chairman at the time, declared that Intel would never build in California ever again, due to the hassle they got from local and state government. The Folsom plant was to be much larger, built in four phases, but only phase one was ever build. Intel built the rest of the Folsom plant in Oregon and now they are expanding in Arizona. We have such an anti-business environment in this state, it is no wonder that the California Recession continues unabated.

Brad Croul

Corporations are in the business of making money. They might be nostalgic about the place they came from but economic factors determine what, when and where they do things.
California has given Intel millions in tax breaks and Intel doesn't pay much in taxes yet they also build plants elsewhere.
Maybe there is a redundancy factor. California has not had a big earthquake for a while.


WASHINGTON | Wed Dec 7, 2011 4:09pm EST

(Reuters) - Many brand-name U.S. companies are using deductions, credits and other means to shave their state tax rates below zero percent, a study by a left-leaning think tank released on Wednesday found.

Dupont and Intel Corp. are among the Fortune 500 companies that paid no net state income tax between 2008 and 2010, according to the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy.

Douglas Keachie

"From the last Republican debate we saw Mitt and Newt go at each other about “immigration”. "

George, you can't expect the average American to grasp th distinction. The other night I heard man in the street on tv interviewed about some government program. He was asked if Congress should go on funding it. His response was, "of course Congress should go on funding it. Otherwise us taxpayers would wind up getting stuck with the bill." I rest my case, Idiocracy rules supreme!

Douglas Keachie

In the early 1980's, many, many computer/software companies took swan dives, but it didn't stop the industry from growing. Not everybody gets it right the first time. To make your apparent case that the a;ternative energy sector is failing, you'd also have to list how many companies are thriving, or at least doing OK, in these rough economic times, when corporate America sits on their asses and two trillion, hoping to bring about a self fulfilling prophesy of a failed Obama.

George Rebane

DougK 911am - since you copped a perennial conclusion of these pages, what can I say? Nevertheless, we can agree that loss of precise semantics contributes an out-sized share to the populist noise in the public forum. From where did sloppy semantics and grammar arise? How innocent is our public education system in this when one hears a high school teacher mangle English at the mike during a convocation or awards ceremony?

One of my professorial gigs at university was teaching critical thinking to upper division/graduate journalism and media production students. As part of the course, they submitted written analyses of current events reported in the media. More than half of them would not have passed my English class at Southport High School in 1950s Indiana.

Does that explain some of my concerns about large-scale democracy and the voting franchise?

George Rebane

BradC 840am - I don't want to circle the 'corporations don't pay taxes' barn again, but would remind all of us that Intel workers in California pay all California taxes, fees, and assessments. Giving joy to Arizona, the same goes for its workers. In that very real sense, to other states California is the unwitting giver of endless joy.

Douglas Keachie

That's wealth being spread around by Obama, don't-cha remember?

Douglas Keachie

This shining light of the Tea Party and governor of AZ must of had a bad English teacher or two.:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/behind-jan-brewers-tall-tales-of-intimidation-hides-a-dishonest-despot

Scott Obermuller

Here we go again - "you'd also have to list how many companies are thriving, or at least doing OK, in these rough economic times, when corporate America sits on their asses and two trillion." So Doug, all the companies thriving in America today are not corporate? Also please list the companies that have their trillions stuffed in a mattress. Heck, I'd settle for one. You know that guy you made fun of there for an idiot comment? People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks. I can list American companies (corporate, even) that are doing OK. Lets just start with Ford Motor Company. They would be doing their best business ever if Obama hadn't given their incompetent competition wads of tax payer money. And they have to negotiate labor deals with the organization that has a large interest in their competition. Corporate money belongs to the businesses that earned it. I find it highly amusing that another entity (the great American left) that can't even balance it's own checkbook and survives only as a parasitic leech on our economy, is lecturing companies that employ folks, pay taxes and help our balance of payments on how to deploy their resources. It's as if the 600 pound diabetic were lecturing the nation on how to eat correctly and live a healthy life style. But don't worry, we're going to be just like Europe in so many ways.

billy T

Re: the shrinking middle class. Stats show that 60% of kids born into the bottom fifth of the economic ladder (the poorest of poor) have moved up and out of the bottom of the income level. Conversely, 61% of the kids born into the top fifth of the income bracket have fallen out of the top fifth. We are a mobile society. A 50 year old makes more than a 17 or 23 year old. A kid may be born poor, make good money in his peak earning years, then retire and be poor again. Re: Arizona. Arizona is a dirty word among elitist lefties. Maybe it is cause you can belt on a holster with a nice peacemaker and legally stroll thru the heart of any Arizona city. Maybe its because Barry Goldwater was from Arizona or maybe because Arizona did not make MLK Day a State holiday for years. Maybe it is cause Arizona wants to protect its borders from illegal entry. Lord knows Obama in three years has yet to visit any section of our entire southern border in any southern border state. Maybe it is cause his auntie is an illegal alien living in federal housing. Now I see the target is the current Governor of Arizona. The last Governor of Arizona sued the Federal Government for the reimbursement of the costs of securing our border and now she (Janet N) is running Homeland Security. My, politics makes strange bedfellows. I tend to believe Jan Brewer's account of Obama's demeanor in her book. That greatly upset our President and Obama displayed the same demeanor to the Arizona Governor this week exactly as she described in her book.

Douglas Keachie

Scott, you need to reread my post. I never said any ONE company had 2 trillion. I did ask for you to produce a list of ALL green companies and how they are doing, before crowing over the death of green, based on just a couple.

BillyT, it is clear from the video that Brewer needs a teleprompter. I thought Janet N was on the bleep list of the right? I guess not...

I guess El Paso, Texas is not a southern border state?

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/11/nation/la-na-obama-immigration-20110511

Douglas Keachie

"Stats show that 60% of kids born into the bottom fifth of the economic ladder (the poorest of poor) have moved up and out of the bottom of the income level. Conversely, 61% of the kids born into the top fifth of the income bracket have fallen out of the top fifth. We are a mobile society. "

just how were these "stats" derived, and where are the originals posted. I'll let Greg decide if the mathematical statements pass muster. I suspect if I wrote that, he'd be jumping for joy.

billy T

Mr. Keachie, you are right about Obama visiting the border city of El Paso. I stand corrected. RE: economic mobility http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_findings_summary_definitive.pdf. The Urban Institute has a very long 3 part report on the subject with footnotes on just about every paragraph to explain how its stats are arrived, but I could only copy one report at a time, thus this short link. Helpful hint for educators: 39 or 40% of kids staying in their parents top/bottom income percentile means 60-61% moved out of their parents status.

billy T

The "dynamics of the shrinking middle class" has various factors. A married woman filing jointly, then later getting divorced and shell shocked, may make that dear woman poor for awhile. Although I don't trust Wikipedia, this link is generally accurate. I remember a Standford study that reported a college grad changes professions 5 times in their fist 11 years after graduation. New hires get paid less than employees working for several years at the same job (generally speaking). People such as I have a knee jerk reaction to the shrinking middle class. We remember Dad working his blue collar job, buying a modest brand new house with Mom staying home with the 4 kids. One car in the garage was typical with a boat in the side yard. Today we have both spouses working, two cars in the garage, and nothing is done on a handshake anymore. The Sears card was revolutionary and the only plastic in town. Ozzie and Harriet, where are you? So, we are stuck with measuring income per household as a measure. I don't miss those old bumper jacks to change a tire one bit. It was a bugger when the jack slipped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

George Rebane

DougK 1109am - I trust that the long recognized income dynamics of the US is no longer an issue in your mind. Googling Cato and Heritage Foundation studies on topics like 'income mobility' provide a lot of data and references on that proposition. For some odd reason the same results are not reported from left-leaning organizations. I suppose that is in maintenance of the ideological tenet that in America classes are stable cohorts in which the rich suppress the poor with considerable success.

Douglas Keachie

I measure the economy one way. I too refer to the 1950's vs today by the measure of my dad's salary as an beginning acssociate prof just starting out in 1949, and how that compared to the house they bought.

HIs yearly salary was $4.500.

The house in the mid level of the Berkeley hills cost $14,500.

So his yearly salary was roughly 1/3 the cost of the house.

That house sold for $600,000, rather run down, under my brother's steward ship for 15 years.

I know of no beginning associate prof that makes $200,000 in the engineering department at Cal. In fact, I rather doubt the dept head makes that much, from his UC salary.

Has the middle class been screwed?

Yup!

As for our latest modern conveniences, as I pointed out once before, you can outfit an entire house at a thrift store for less than a grand. One curiousity though, AM/FM receiver amps are very scarce. Apparently they can be shipped overseas where buyers will pay enough to make it worthwhile to beat to $10-$20 they used to command here. You can buy CD, DVD and video tape players all day long. No garage radios, weird.

George Rebane

DougK 910am - good story and rings true with my experience. When in Indiana the Rebane family finally reached middle class sometime in the mid-fifties, we all still worked. But after coming to California in 1957, my dad's job in aerospace paid enough to keep mom home, and she never had to work again. I wasn't aware of the AM/FM receiver situation.

billy T

What is the current definition of middle class? The old definition may included home ownership.. But, today it is not Daddy's house. Everybody, and I mean everybody in the neighborhood lived in houses with one bathroom. Today, a one bathroom house is not a good selling point, neither is 1050 square feet of living space. One car. If somebody actually bought a brand new car, all the neighborhood kids were allowed to gather around and smell the inside of it. Usually it was the near elderly who were the ones to afford a brand new car. Any high school kid could buy a gallon of gas with loose dimes and nickels in the pocket, so inflation is a factor, as evidenced by the soaring costs of college tuition. Most of the middle class families did remodel their homes when the breadwinners were in their peak earning years and added the second bathroom. We didn't own a TV but a lot of neighborhood families did. Dad foresaw that a TV would interfere with homework, so by today's standards we were poor. By the standards of back then, we were considered living the dream in a nice neighborhood with excellent schools. The town to the west thought we were snobbish and rich and the town to the east looked down on us and we thought they were the super rich. Of course having NASA as the biggest employer in the town to the east allowed them to live in bigger houses with shiny cars. But, all three towns were considered middle class. And lets not forget today's divorce rates, which makes neither party financially better off, although technically the income stays the same.

Douglas Keachie

Dad bought a 1949 Plymouth Suburban station, new, but flew back to the factory to pick it up. It was cheaper to do that then, and then he drove to Boston to visit his mom, and had my brother in tow. 4 years later he did the same thing with me, this time buying a new car for the neighbors (with their money), again the trip paid for itself. We visited the neighbors for tv for about 4 years, then in 1955 or so got one of our own. As kids we went to the movies at least once a week, and got to see TWO, not one picture, each time, for the price of one admission. One more "forgotten" sign of middle class decline.

Oh, Berkeley was wondrously socially stratified, based on how far up the hill you lived, and whether or not you had a view of the bay.

Parents how was 3 bedroom, office, kitchen, dining room,living room, and one bath, with un finished room below with plumbing in for a bath, and a large one car garage. Over time downstairs room was finished with bath, and 8 by 30 storage area was dug. Original size would have been listed at 1700 sq feet.

I'd have pegged our family as upper middle class. Mom never worked, except as a volunteer, after first child in 1941. She did help dad with typing and writing his PhD., as well as other papers. She also kept the books for family finances.

billy T

I guess I am poor. My ceiling fan quit working a couple of months back and my $12 coffee maker from K-Mart finally gave up the ghost at exactly the wrong time just 4 days ago. Have not replaced them yet. Yes, I have been homeless, truly living out of the car with the kids 18 years ago. And I lived prior to that in a van for almost 4 years. Those were rough times. My, I found out I was homeless again since that, according to the government stats. Moved into a bigger place ( with no washer or dryer) and vacated my prior home. There was a delay in the paperwork and we had to spend a few nights over on my sister's couch and spare room. Now, that was considered homeless cause I did not have a home for at least one day in the year. Now, I am just considered poor by government standards of what I own. Brother, can you spare a dime? A bowl of homemade soup delivered would be nice right about now. Come on you rich bastards, throw this family man a bone. Life is rough without my trusty coffee maker. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

billy T

Future proof I am poor. All this time I thought an automatic dish washer was me and the kids, a sink full of suds, and an argument over who washes and who drys and who puts the dishes away.

Gregory

A home can be bought in Nevada for the annual salary of a UC Berkeley professor. I know of one perfectly livable home in a nice neighborhood in Nevada that sold for 6 months worth of one particular Chemistry professor's salary.

Neither Berkeley home prices nor UCB salaries are usable as proxies for state of the middle class.

Regarding Gingrich v. Romney, Romney has spent 16MM vs Gingrich's 4MM in carpetbombing Florida with attack ads. So Mitt's ahead in FL while falling behind Gingrich in national polls. Interesting elections.

Douglas Keachie

Good God Greg, you're really backing Gingrich? Good luck with that! You gonna fly him to the moon? I'll be thrilled if he wins, (he won't) Obama will cut him to ribbons.

Commuting from Nevada to Berkeley is kinda a killer commute....even with a plane.

"Neither Berkeley home prices nor UCB salaries are usable as proxies for state of the middle class."

I never said that they were.

Remember I identified with the upper middle class, not the middle class, and following Gregistic Logic, the two are two totally separate concept, as different as elephants and river rocks.

billy T

Re: green jobs initiatives taking swan dives. Internationally, many companies are doing quite well, but the truth is it is costing governments too much money. Spain was the shinning example of the trailblazer plunging head first into the greenie future. But, with 24% unemployment, the green future is awash with red ink. The UK is having one big donnybrook internally as I write this over following Spain's example and putting the brakes on future greenie subsidies. Last week the UN carbon credit dude was predicting the end of the world (the carbon exchange market) because of falling/little demand for carbon credit buying and selling. Imagine throwing a party and no one showing up. Even here on the home front, what happened to all those green jobs created by the Cash For Clunkers program? All those hard working souls operating car crushers one day, then the next day they had green jobs crushing clunkers. The following month they lost their green jobs and went back to work crushing cars, not clunkers. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-27/spain-suspends-subsidies-for-new-renewable-energy-plants.html

George Rebane

Germany has suspended biofuel subsidies and is now taxing it. Also, remaining green subsidies are "wreaking havoc on German economy".
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/06/22/green-subsidies-wreak-havoc-on-german-economy/

Gregory

Gruss Gott, Keach, I didn't say anything about who I am "backing", but since I've never been a What a putz, of course you were using bay area salaries and real estate prices as a gauge of the state of the middle class.

Had Keachie possessed critical reading skills, he'd have noted I didn't say who I was "backing" in the primaries. Since I've never been a Republican or a conservative, nor have I ever voted in a Republican primary, one might rightfully guess I'm not backing a conservative Republican in any primary.

It does strike me that the hard Demo left is awfully loud about their claims about the unelectability of Gingrich; Pelosi is promising an October surprise and Keach waxes eloquently. You'd expect them to be saying the opposite and giggling under their breath. I suspect the Dem insiders love the idea of the Swiss Bank Account running against the 99% next November and are holding their breath for a Romney win.

Gregory

[sorry, cut and pasting was a disaster, trying again]

What a putz, of course you were using bay area salaries and real estate prices as a gauge of the state of the middle class.


Gruss Gott, Keach, had you possessed critical reading skills, you'd have noted I didn't say who I was "backing" in the primaries. Since I've never been a Republican or a conservative, nor have I ever voted in a Republican primary, one might rightfully guess I'm not backing a conservative Republican in any primary.

It does strike me that the hard Demo left is awfully loud about their claims about the unelectability of Gingrich; Pelosi is promising an October surprise and Keach waxes eloquently. You'd expect them to be saying the opposite and giggling under their breath. I suspect the Dem insiders love the idea of the Swiss Bank Account running against the 99% next November and are holding their breath for a Romney win.

Douglas Keachie

Actually to me, the first version comes out just as clear as the second. I see you have found a neat dodge around me inverting the names in the insults. Only a real putz, a comptomanden spatz, could come up with such a clever scheme. NEXT!

Anyways, it's not to big a stretch for most people to read your sentence,

"Regarding Gingrich v. Romney, Romney has spent 16MM vs Gingrich's 4MM in carpetbombing Florida with attack ads. So Mitt's ahead in FL while falling behind Gingrich in national polls. Interesting elections."

and come away with the notion that you might well be backing Gingrich, but from what I've known of you previously, I would have put your money on Huntsman or someone not in the race, in your saner moments, otherwise on Paul. I think we can assume you will not be voting for Obama, under any circumstances, but I cound be, "wrong agian, Keach."

On a lighter note, the closed caption on FOX 40 just had a story about Half Dome in Yosemite and "removing the cables that hackers use to climb up." Closed captioning can be quite funny at times.

For truly stunning Yosemite in time lapse, go here: http://vimeo.com/35396305

For Half Dome visible from the Central Valley (great bar bet), go here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/trimmoos/3294080995/in/set-72157603775162264/

Scott Obermuller

Doug - It appears you evade arguments by twisting or just fabricating what others say. It is perfectly clear that I used the word companies (plural) in relation to the amount of trillions. Then I asked for just a singular example of one company and made no mention of any amount of money. Corporate America does not just sit on capital. It invests it as it sees fit. That money is being used to good effect in the economy. They will hire more workers as they see fit.
You have also gone off the track on the failure of several "green energy" companies. Of course all sorts of businesses come and go, but the salient point here is that these companies are using our tax dollars. If people want to invest freely of their money, so be it. But I am being forced (at gun point as a tax payer) to invest in loosing propositions. If solar or new battery tech companies are so good, they will have no trouble attracting investment capital in the private market.

billy T

Talking about crony capitalism, it guess its the old "Its not who you know, its who you blow." Obama has created one big welfare case load by having all these green industries dependent on him. His tax filing for 2011 should be interesting with all the dependents he has standing in line for Obama Dollars to survive. As Mr. Rogers would say, "Can you say Worm Farm? That's good. I knew you could." http://nlpc.org/blogs/paul-chesser

Douglas Keachie

"If solar or new battery tech companies are so good, they will have no trouble attracting investment capital in the private market. "

Likewise oil companies need no depletion allowances and farmer need not be paid for food not grown, and so on. And nobody needs a bailout.

Douglas Keachie

"Also please list the companies that have their trillions stuffed in a mattress." ~ Scott O. ~

Let see, the number I mentioned is 2 trillion total, for all companies. Since you imply that at least two companies have at least two trillion each by this statement, you and I live in different worlds.

Gregory

"Doug - It appears you evade arguments by twisting or just fabricating what others say." Scott O, you have broken the code. I suspect he doesn't even realize he's doing it; if it makes sense to him that you'd think something, you have.

The O Administration has gone way past general support of an industry such as oil depletion allowances, and went right for a venture capital role for the Federal government, picking winners and losers. Mostly losers.

billy T

Closer to home, I remember with we approved the California Lottery with the slogan "Our Schools Win Too". Yep, the lottery would save and fund our cash strapped schools. Then the big cig tax that would fund a myriad of social and health programs, cutting the net cost of CA's health care. Now we have Cap and Tax to fund the formerly called train to nowhere. 100 billion of cap and tax money will fund the people mover, so it shouldn't cost us po folk a dime. Read: 100 billion taken from CA employers will create jobs. Looks great on paper and our schools win too. Not likely that PG&E will pull up stakes and move to greener pastures. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/30/2615320/calif-gov-brown-rejects-100-billion.html

Douglas Keachie

Yes, it is unheard of that the government might in fact help out private industry, even specific private industries. No Republican sitting President has ever done that....except maybe Abraham Lincoln, who, in 1862, helped fund a choo-choo of his own, with government assets, both of cash, and with:

"From 1850-1871, the railroads received more than 175 million acres (708,000 km²) of public land - an area more than one tenth of the whole United States and larger in area than Texas."

Long term, all the businesses in Calfornia will benefit. Would you take away BART, also funded by taxpayers, or is it too being expanded to San Jose shortly? Greg would never make it from his plane at one of the 8 GA fields in the Bay Area to work without BART taking all that traffic off the roads. Of course raising gas to $5 a gallon also works, but workers then spend more money on gas, and less on kids education, and the downward spiral continues.

Happy to see that TSA is doing a few smart things:

Now every pilot and prospective student is run through a series of background checks.

"The TSA regularly inspects our rolls and the people that we work with and our students at our flight school operation to make sure they are screened, vetted and that they are not terrorists," said Perkins.

Physical security around Bay Area airfields has been heightened. Tall fences have replaced low ones, security cameras are a common sight, and gates are shut tight and locked.

There's also an added measure of scrutiny from the pilots themselves.

"Since 9/11, all the pilots actually look out if there's some people around," said pilot Ferdinand Seemann. "We're very, very cautious now."

from the Livermore paper.

Douglas Keachie

And yes, Lincoln did not fund all of that, but he did do the biggie, The Trans-Continental Railroad. BTW, did you know the Big Four moved the start of the Sierra Nevada Mountains much closer to Sacramento than the current fleet of "Chains Required" signs, to take advantage of the bonus for being in the mountains? The American businessman has been shuckin' and jive'n with the government (and taxpayers' monies and assets) from Day One.

Douglas Keachie

Or you could be implying that multiple companies are all using just one mattress to stash their cash. This seems extremely unlikely, they don't trust one another that much.

"Also please list the companies that have their trillions stuffed in a mattress." ~ Scott O. ~

Let see, the number I mentioned is 2 trillion total, for all companies. Since you imply that at least two companies have at least two trillion each by this statement, you and I live in different worlds.

George Rebane

Gregory & DougK - gentlemen, your off-topic mudball fighting on these pages has gotten beyond my toleration. I've removed some of your recent missiles. Please, try to keep these comments on topic and of interest to other readers. For other communications, have you thought of email?

Gregory

George, I have no interest in discussing anything with Keachie, who really has been defaming me online for a decade. If I am slandered or libeled, I respond in the same forum. I've asked you in the past to remove his defamations and you've refused. So be it.

As Scott O. wrote, "Doug - It appears you evade arguments by twisting or just fabricating what others say." You've given him a major forum, and I would not be surprised if the only reason he started in here is to be a thorn in my side. It would not be the first time.

billy T

Now sure what category this falls under, but I am fit to be tied. Those evil greedy kicking granny out the door 1%ers are up to their old tricks again, purposely destroying America. I say enough!! I just joined the Occupy Everything Movement....OK, I promise not to destroy a children's art exhibit or smash a 100 year old model of City Hall like my brothers and sisters in arms did in their exuberance in Oakland. I won't even steal American flags and burn them. I am outraged I tell you, outraged. The mortgage banks are out to screw us all. Hey, wait. If we taxpayers own these banks, then that makes us all the money grubbing SOBs. Crap. http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/freddie-mac-betting-against-homeowners-latest-gse-outrage-164015828.html

The comments to this entry are closed.

Blog powered by Typepad