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« Ruminations - 8may12 | Main | ‘Me Generation’ looks for work »

10 May 2012

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Todd Juvinall

I don't think we will have a "revolution" in the old sense. First thing that comes to my mind about the disaffected young is this. When you are beaten over the head every day by the doom and gloomers about the planet, trans fat, bake sales and death panels, how do you stay positive about the future. Hell, every night on the Science Channel there are earth killing comets and asteroids, the earth without people and many more. Then we have the eco groups who bash the young into submission stating they must do this or that or all will be lost.

The loss of hope is the bottom line. We must place a muzzle over the likes of the SBC's and Earth Firsts, the nuts who banned coconut oil in theaters and the motorcycle helmet requirements. I feel terrible for the young now that I have seen and heard all the crap from my fellow baby boomers (they don't want to die!). No, we need to unleash the young and shut our baby boomer mouths about the end of things. Hell, we even tell them the polar bears are drowning! Okay, I'm done with the rant.

Russ Steele

George,

I was one of those students in the 1950 who did not prepare in high school for those hard college math courses. Not necessarily due to a desire to take the easily courses, there were not that many choices, it was more that my math teachers were not the best in the world, or event the state. I went to Nevada Union for three years and graduated at Salmon HIgh. I wanted to be an electrical engineer, but that first college math course did me in. I looked around and went into Radio and TV Production. It was technical, but no engineering math required. I learned most of my systems engineering skills in the Air Force and electronics on my own, building radio and tv kits, enrolling in electronics home study programs when overseas, and took the hard math courses at Air Force sponsored College programs through Calculus II and did some Post Graduate work in micro-electronics. If I had to do it all over again, I would pay more attention in high school math and be prepared for engineering math. One of the issues is I really did not understand the challenge that I would be facing in college. We did not have college councilors, but not sure that I would have listened if there had been, unless here was a level of trust developed. The best solution would have been a trusted mentor who could have guided me and pointed me in the right direction.

Thanks for being my statistics mentor!

Douglas Keachie

"The college bound seem to care only about getting good grades, and therefore take the softer subjects. Even their counselors understand that motivation and advise them to take this easier course vs that one so their GPA will be maximized. "

Sounds like test scores and "No Child Left Behind."

At present, there is no clear direction for our youth, because the hordes of Chinese and Indian STEM students willing to work for 1/3rd wages, and the willingness of USA based multinats to hire them, is freaking our students out. A good many USA STEM households of the 1990's have gone through layoffs and the like, and are now selling (smelling) shoes, fries and at Fry's, and condos.

George Rebane

DougK 550pm - the point here is the attitude and outlook of today's students, not their native ability to master curriculum. Your fervent desire to lay all of the nation's problems on Bush and Reagan doesn't really get much traction in this discussion. The students in question would not have been marginally impacted by any of the federal remediation programs.

And yes, "the hordes of Chinese and Indian STEM students" willing to work for whatever have been a reality for some years now. The policies of stasis in liberal education have continued to be immune to that reality. I remind my high schoolers during the seminars I give that it takes only two things for a third world kid in a village to be liberated for life - any old basic math book and a candle. In the meantime, we have hundreds of thousands of STEM jobs in the US go wanting each year - e.g. Microsoft alone has around 5K open job reqs unfilled. What is a desperate "USA based multinat" to do in that situation.?

I suggest that you and your colleagues get a grip, the educational system that has been totally under your control for the last 40 years has not and does not work. You can't drive the system and at the same time bitch that it's not going in the right direction because of someone sitting in the back seat.

billy T

Dr. Rebane, this link is sort of on topic:http://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/2012/05/10/nine-worst-states-to-get-raise/ Looks like the Golden State made honorable mention: Texas is tied for California as the state with the worst education attainment in the country — just 80.7% of residents over 24 have high school diplomas. CPAs don't need much math. Add key, minus key, a tiny bit of division, a little multiplication and the % key. All basic bonehead math for those who aren't into science or physics or real math. Just a thought. Always need accountants to keep track of the genius inventors,
creators, movers and shakers out there.

Douglas Keachie

I was simply noting the similarities between chasing test scores and chasing high grades, any way you can get them without regards for the overall effects. I was not blaming Bush for the current situation. Spending the money on the War of WMD, might be a blamable offense.

Douglas Keachie


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Russ Steele

There is a big economic summit in Southern CA today one of the issues is Millennials unemplpyment in California.


The Millennial Generation in California is optimistic about the future, even if today's economy and current political climate argue otherwise. The first Millennials (born in 1981) have turned 30, and millions of them are in the workforce. In California, about 20% of them are out of work.

More at this LINK.

Ryan Mount

George, you're right. Engineering jobs are going unfilled in the USA. Many of those jobs are in the Internet business. And the Internet was kicked off/primed with government Defense (DARPA) spending in tandem with our colleges. Such odd bedfellows.

But we had a "crisis" back in 1958, notably Sputnik. What do we have now to frighten the electorate into a spending frenzy?

So our way out of this morass, given the fruits produced by the above investments, is not politically simple given how everyone is digging their partisan heals in. If we followed a similar model now, would some feel comfortable with Defense Department spending in schools?

And I understand the temptation to point to developing economies and their growing educated populations especially in the areas of STEM, but it's far more complicated than saying our jobs are going overseas at $14/hour. Throwing engineering requirements overseas is hardly a recipe for success. (I wouldn't recommend this strategy even for my enemies.) I certainly have more domestic team members on my projects than say, Indian ones. But I also have people from the UK and Germany and Canada.

With regards to our modern student's lack of motivation? Well, it's like the mania in Fight Club. Everyone wants to be a rock star right now, and if they can't, why bother? "Can't I just microwave my brain and make it into Steve Jobs," they ask themselves? I'm good at playing video games, ergo I should be good at coding them. (Note the inappropriate/vulgar use of "good" was deliberate)

George Rebane

RyanM 802am - agreed. As regular and technically astute RR reader and discussant, we'd all like to know more of your educational and professional background. The same goes for GregG. All of us have been trying to assemble the snippets that you drop now and then. I know RussS's background, and that of many other readers - some backgrounds are easier than others to nail ;-) I'm trying to assemble some sort readership profile that would better serve in picking my topics and the level of presentation.

THEMIKEYMCD

We have an entitlement society. Worse yet those would-be producers evaluate a poor risk/return relationship on their efforts. Regulations kill desire. Success comes with stigma ('evil rich').

Harsh language but dead on.
http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/jon-lovitz-blasts-president-obamas-tax-rich-plan-salty-rant-37229

Douglas Keachie

Ryan is onto something. Mandatory course in how video games work, at a level between playing and coding. IF THEN ELSE and nesting for all, taught initially in the 5th grade, with a very, very simple game as an example. Let them change the color of the puck from green to red. Let them change the speed, the acceleration, etc. Then have a followup course that advances the game and the graphics, until you finally start teaching programming in the third year, 8th grade, and mix it into teaching rote mathematics, through all three years.

A complex problem might look like: If I have three spaceships, each equipped with 5 guns, that can accurately hit targets at varying rates of success, as far out as 400 miles, and a fleet of spice smuggler is coming in with 40 ships, with guns that have a different. weaker, set of parameters, at what point do I turn and run, and how far. You can only shoot when stationary, both sides. Here's the killer. The kid's answer is fed into a computer which then displays the battle as it takes place, using the kid's parameters. You can then touch on the action principle, extending the range into physics. Go with the flow.

THEMIKEYMCD

Breaking News ‏ @BreakingNews

Report: Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin has renounced his US citizenship - @BloombergTV

Douglas Keachie

I'm a Summerhillian Berkeley-oid gravity sport medium mixed mutt. My skills in math are high school algebra and geometry, and everyday life experience with Excel, for life's vexing questions. I know a parsec is not a unit of speed. I don't own a spaceship, but I might buy one of these:

http://store.space.com/gifts-gadgets/star-trek-enterprise-pizza-cutter/?utm_source=space.com&utm_medium=PopUpAd&utm_content=PopUpAd&utm_campaign=star-pizza

Douglas Keachie

I forgot to add, I am smarter than the average bear, but just barely.

Ryan Mount

Milton Friedman reminded us to focus on results, not intentions. You know a tree by the fruit it bears. The proof is in the *tasting* of the pudding; not inherently in the pudding.

/enough aphorisms.

In my line of work, we frequently have Product Marketing and Engineering prove to us that their solution actually works as intended. And we do this by having them demonstrate and record (via Web Conferencing) their products. We "sit down" and watch them write and implement code and demonstrate functionality. If it doesn't work as planned, we either ask for a feasible work around, or we reject it and send them back to fix it.

It's a very healthy activity. And the customer benefits the most here.

Douglas Keachie

I'll make this brief, as an intro, to more details later. Your "customers" in the public school model not only expect test scores, they also expect that little darlings will have some comfort and continuity in their culture. If teachers are changing wily nilly, in mid year, for the next guess of the month by the administrators for high score potential, then they will not have that experience.

Instead they will have the experience of a teacher who has one focus, money in his pocket, via high test scores. The teachers who will succeed will be those most masterful at sizing up a class, and figuring out clever ways of dumping all the losers, if necessary, by provoking outbursts, documenting same, and having the kid removed. The goal you are setting is for high test scores, at any costs. Teachers are not stupid, and we for the most part, are quite aware, in advance, of who's going to bring the average down. Normally we do the best we can by such kids. Your newly installed teachers will have no such inclinations, as adopting them would be counterproductive, salary-wise. They will quickly adapt, or be fired. In this case, it's a not very healthy activity, and the only the customer with smart and agreeable kids benefits here.

George Rebane

DougK 1023am - Modern estimation theory coupled with a properly designed 'teacher performance utility function' (TPUF) can readily handle such diversities in student abilities and performance. And putting a 'smart' teacher into such a transparent (wrt the estimation algos and the TPUF), merit-based environment will, IMHO, let the eagles soar. Even the hard working dodos will do well, because the optimum effort allocation strategy that enables them to maximize the TPUF for their specific classes will be explained to them. No one will be sandbagged, since it behooves the school to derive the most out their teaching staffs.

Ryan Mount

My point is the E in STEM is an end, and the S, T and M are the means. I would love to see an aggressive STM curriculum, along with other subjects, in the K-10(maybe 8) grades, and then a focus on actually doing something with all of this (the E) in the 11th and 12th Grades.

There are numerous reforms that I think would work, but are probably beyond the scope of a blog comment area.

With regards to teachers' competencies, I think they are being unfairly targeted here. The problem is systematic and include multiple players of which the teachers are actors.

I think I finally understand your point Doug. And I think it's a valid that needs to be discussed frankly. From my reading, I'm assuming your saying that if teachers are exposed to the whims of the marketplace, it's going to be very difficult to have a career in the field with turnover, etc. And once you're (a figurative "you're") out, it's hard to get back in. And if I may assume further, you are suggesting that you're out for good.

So if I've interpreted what you said correctly, then I think we need to discuss the assumptions in that assertion:

1) Experienced teachers are better than newer ones

2) Teachers are going to be more worried about their money, instead of their profession (the assumption here that Unions, I'm presuming, give teachers "protection" and a buffer from the marketplace whims)

3) In a more whimsical teacher marketplace, the clever ones will survive by gaming the system in some way in order to preserve their jobs, which is incongruent with learning.

4) Teachers deserve a stable job. This is more of a projection on my part. Teachers are committed servants of the public, and deserve a reasonable and stable job and retirement.

5) Lower performing students will be exercised from the classroom in favor of high-performing students who will improve the teacher's performance. The assumption here, which is valid, is that teachers have to(as in have little say) teach the future Einsteins and well as the future Taco Bell Drive Thru attendants. You see this behavior in charter schools, BTW. It's not explicit, for fear of lawsuits, but the bias is certainly there. Have a child with special needs? Don't send him/her to a charter school.

Did I get that right?


So, here are two direct questions:

1) Do we think teachers would be willing to give up the protections of the Union for a doubling (or more) of their salary and subject themselves to yearly evaluations or similar accountability?

2) At what point do we think a market pressure would overcome their requirement for security?

Douglas Keachie

Assumptions, get to some of those later, but you are mostly correct, thanks for reading!

1) if you double the salaries, your smarter teachers (or at least teacher wannabees) will arrive in droves. Districts will have just exactly the tool they need to dismantle unions, a complete and competent replacement workforce. Damn, I should have thought of that sooner!

1a) never happen, states are broke already, unless of course George's financial apocalypse for 70 million Americans occurs, in which case education will be pretty low on the list of voter worries.

2) doubling should do the trick. Of course we are all making the happyland assumption here that those who can do, can also teach how to do, and can do so in a classroom inhabited by this generation of kids/youngsters/children/charges/pre-teens/teens/ or which ever term floats your boat, or levitates your bot. Kids is faster to type. Pre-emptive strike here.

D

I guess I was one of the lucky ones who had that “ah-ha” moment with high school math. I took the requisite algebra and geometry in my frosh-soph years, got C’s but never really grasped the subjects. They were boring classes. Nothing more than solving equations or looking at two dimensional planes or solids on the blackboard, text book or smelly mimeographed paper and being instructed to find the area, volume, angle or unknown.

That “ah-ha” moment came in my junior year when my parents made me take an elective class called Applied Engineering for one semester.

This class taught a practical approach to mathematics and engineering. Building a simple cantilever bridge (from an Erector Set, no less), then having the instructor explain mathematically how the angles of the support structure serve to compliment, cancel or enhance the total structure. Or, a counterbalanced drawbridge and learning a simple equation like weight times arm equals moment. The crowing moment was when we were introduced to a trig table. To me, the trig table became the answer key to any equation involving an angle. The rest is (math) history.
Dave Cranfield

Ryan Mount

>an elective class called Applied Engineering for one semester. This class taught a practical approach to mathematics and engineering.

bingo. X gets the Square.

Douglas Keachie

CBS has Tomorrow's Rocket Scientists in a couple of minutes, time now is 5:12pm.

Douglas Keachie

Some folks are much smarter than the average bear. Seems to me this dude was touting natural gas like mad a couple of years back. Compare:

BP Capital Management, the investment firm Pickens founded in 1996, held 570,055 shares of Chesapeake as of Dec. 31, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Its biggest equity holdings were BP Plc (BP/) and McMoRan Exploration Co. (MMR)

AND:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ30c8IZQR8

Douglas Keachie

Here's a teacher we need to keep, but the immigration gerontocracy* is screwing it up!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57433017/for-texas-rocketry-club-and-their-inspirational-teacher-the-sky-is-just-the-beginning/?tag=cbsContent;cbsCarousel

*deliberate choice of word.

George Rebane

DougK 512pm - what CBS will not show is an interview testing the knowledge of, say, three randomly sampled 17-year-olds. And that is the point here, these are the kids in the millions who will need productive AND fulfilling work when they hit the job markets. Cherry picking some 3- or 4-sigma young people for an interview is called snagging 'content' and viewership of the sheeple.

Douglas Keachie

We already know those results, George. I was continuing the thread on the search for quality teachers. I know your formularies are the Holy Grail Unified Field Theory for solving all of mankind's problems, but there are a side effects, contraindications, and doses that you may not be taking into consideration. If you are right, then you get the Golden Gate Bridge award. There was an engineer back in the 1940's who realized that the bridge could handle more traffic if tolls were only collected one way. As you might expect, he was laughed at by everyone. 20 years later they had no c\choice but to try it or build new bridges, and the rest is history. Much like the plate tectonics guy from even earlier.

Gregory

">an elective class called Applied Engineering for one semester. This class taught a practical approach to mathematics and engineering.

bingo. X gets the Square."

Not really, though it's good a practical math class managed to help "D" initiate a Piagetian re-representation, if I recall my ed speak correctly. Better late than never. Forcing all math and science track kids to take a lab class like that would bore many to the point of tears.

I remember an Aha! moment in the 5th grade over a simple algebra technique to rationalize a repeating decimal... i.e., express 0.444444... as a fraction. Or 0.012340123401234... Algebra disguised as arithmetic.


George, I'm surprised you've asked as I've detailed my education here before, BS Physics, MSEE, a few patents, the last one being "Packet telephony across the public switched telephone network" that might be earning some cash for Cisco.

I believe Ryan has degrees in English Education and English Lit from Humboldt State. Keach studied anthropology, which prepared him to be able to google all the world's knowledge and present what makes the argument he wants to make, whether in a proper context or not. Both are prepared to fashion "STEM" programs despite apparently not having thrived in them.


Michael Anderson

Ryan M. wrote on May 11, 2012 @ 8:02 am: "So our way out of this morass, given the fruits produced by the above investments, is not politically simple given how everyone is digging their partisan heals in. If we followed a similar model now, would some feel comfortable with Defense Department spending in schools?"

I wouldn't feel comfortable w/ that, Ryan. I don't think it's necessary...yet.

For all the doom and gloom I read about here regarding our nation's school system, as someone who is at Ground Zero, w/ two kids in the local system ages, 10 and 7, I think the real problem has to do w/ inequity. The Have and the Have-Not kids are more clearly defined than they were a decade or two ago, and the ability of the Have-Not kids to move up is more constrained.

Regarding public spending, I do think there is something of a silver bullet at hand. The trenches are already being dug:
http://www.cenic.org/calren/expansion/index.html
http://www.cvin.com/
http://www.cvngbip.com/overview/map.html

Douglas Keachie

Well Greg, you are failing to take into account different outlooks on the world, and a setting of priorities. I was raised in an engineering family, but had been somewhat pre-raised by my grandmother and grandfather, who, in your terms I suspect, spoiled me like mad, with movies, park walks, music, See's chocolate, beach time at Seal and Long Beach, a long drive down through the Signal Hill oil fields. My parents were quite engrossed in making a living and finishing off my dad's PhD for Stanford. Mom did the spelling, error correcting, and typing. Dad provided the material.

In any event I will freely admit that I grew up having one hellova lot of fun those first four years. Grandparents stayed in LA, 1141, West 47th Street, my first math lesson, where I lived. Walking distance to the Colosseum and the Olympic Pool, with those mind boggling diving platforms, and even then I was allowed to wander freely.

Anyways, living with just mom & dad revealed a great lack of sense of fun on their part, compared to what I was used to. Actually in retrospect they were above average, but not close to Nana and Grandfather. I grew up church-less by most standards, couldn't hear Sunday school teachers, Unitarian Church at UC.

To make a longf story short, I was drawn to the social sciences for one simple reason: This appeared to be a very nice planet, why are so many people seemingly hell bent on being disagreeable with one another? Looked for answers in soc and pysch before turning to anthro, which seem to include the other two and expanded beyond just USA cultures. It's not that STEM failed, it's that I, IMHO, had bigger fish to fry. How much you wanna bet I can't learn calculus at age 67? I've kinda given up on figuring out why so many people are so screwed up, and have simply had to accept it as a given. If you were able to, in fourth grade, recognize something that abstract, obviously you are not the average bear.

Ryan Mount

Hi Greg-

I realize that a comment blog forum has it's limitations in terms of a rich discourse. I've mentioned this on several occasions. But I would invite you to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to accessing their participation and qualifications in the discussion. I've made it clear, and hopefully we can agree, that we know a tree by the fruit it bears. But just to clear the air, by the time I was a Senior in High School, I was in both Calculus and Physics, which I pursued into my college years before switching to Rhetoric, Linguistics and as you mention Literature, specifically Post-Modern Literary Theory and Education in graduate school.

Anyhow, what are the proposals Greg from your team? Have any reform ideas other than slowly liquidating the schools?

- Fire under-performing teachers?
- School Vouchers?
- More rote SM...you really need to take the T & E out and treat it separately, but they're distinct topics, IMO. Technology is a tool, Engineering is a ends/goal. But it makes for a nifty acronym, which government-types love.
- More charter schools?

Michael-

Hi. My Sputnik observation was just my read of recent, Post WWII history. But not all Defense Spending is for making cruise missiles either. Defense spending, like our Common Welfare, a function of our government. I guess my point is we're still running our government like it's the Cold War.

I think the demise of our nation's schools system's is overstated. And teachers are a convenient target. I'm more apt to blame students and parents and the curriculum, but teachers certainly have a role here.

But this is cynically done because of partisan politicking. More specifically those on the Right (and some on the extreme tin-foil hat Left), frankly aren't following an agenda that suits their liking. They suspect social engineering and lacking standards...really arm chair quarterbacking in my opinion. And their over-arching assumption is that an aggressive curriculum of "basics," (this is not a new idea) and less of a focus on social engineering (more their term than mine) in the Social Sciences and Liberal Arts subjects will produce more productive citizens.

My suggestions would seem to jibe with both (or many) agendas. I would like to see more aggressive fundamentals training (and I mean training) in the lower grades, and a more open, applied project-based education in the upper grades. I would like to dramatically increase teacher salaries(raise taxes), and make instructors more accountable(soften unions). But these are just two items on a long list of reforms which can't be snuggled into a blog.

George Rebane

Gregory 129am - Apologies, you did indeed point out those CV. A review for recent readers won't hurt though. Thanks, and thanks also to DougK and RyanM.

BTW, I will gladly post on RR a thoughtful article by any of my readers that is too long, etc to be contained in a comment.

Gregory

"More rote SM...you really need to take the T & E out and treat it separately"

I have no idea what Ryan is trying to say. I've also no clue from his clues just what sort of tech his tech career consists of.

And Ryan, there is no "team" here; my words are my own.

billy T

I may be rather slow at times, but if you take the S&M out of STEM it would not be the same. I do posses the ability to remain open minded, but that S&M stuff is overrated. Tried it in my youth. Mistress Wanda made me strip down to my jock strap and ordered me to lick her black stilettos as she called me a worm. The best part was when she drove her heels into my forehead. I saw stars. But, after a few times the novelty wore off and it became monotonous. Maybe if we put the S&M back in with the T&E then it might attract more young people. What the hay, it can't hurt.

Gregory

I'd love to hear more about how Ryan pursued calculus and physics in college before switching to Rhetoric and Linguistics, and what he means by 'more rote Science and Math'.

Gregory

Just to get back to an unanswered question... "More rote SM" ... Ryan, what were you trying to say at 12 May 2012 at 08:35 AM?

First, I've criticized the entire "STEM" facade from first hearing of it, including this blog, because it allows content-lite so-called engineering and technology be substituted for real science and math, and if we're going to have Americans be able to attend K-12 public schools and enter real collegiate science and mathematics study, science-lite and math-lite isn't enough.

Second, "rote" has been used to destroy traditional goals in math and science education, including actually being able to reason symbolically. It's a rejection of practicing arithmetic operations until a degree of automaticity is attained that is part and parcel of the Grass Valley School District's dismal performance in the imparting of demonstrable math competence.

If you haven't played with fractions enough for the manipulations to make sense, you're not going to grok Al-jebr.

Douglas Keachie

"If you haven't played with fractions enough for the manipulations to make sense, you're not going to grok Al-jebr."

Not even if someone hits you over the head with a 16 foot long 2x2?

Gregory

Keach, you just keep trying that particular solution.

And now for something completely different, courtesy Python(Monty):

Inspector Mrs Potter - you knew Harold Potter quite well I believe?
Wife Oh yes quite well.
Inspector Yes.
Wife He was my husband.
Inspector Yes. And, er, he never showed any inclination towards being a Scotsman before this happened?
Wife (shocked) No, no, not at all. He was not that sort of person...
Inspector He didn't wear a kilt or play the bagpipes?
Wife No, no.
Inspector He never got drunk at night or bought home black puddings?
Wife No, no. Not at all.
Inspector He didn't have an inadequate brain capacity?
Wife No, no, not at all.
Inspector I see. So by your account Harold Potter was a perfectly ordinary Englishman without any tendency towards being a Scotsman whatsoever?
Wife Absolutely, yes. (suddenly remembering) Mind you he did always watch Dr Finlay on television.
Inspector Ah-hah! ... Well that's it, you see. That's how it starts.


Just to get back to an unanswered question... "More rote SM" ... Ryan, what were you trying to say at 12 May 2012 at 08:35 AM?

Douglas Keachie

Among the 82,000 or so hits for "Scottish inventor," beyond the obvious Watts and Bell brigade, we find the following:

An inventor has been given a pounds 50,000 grant to develop a low-cost "smart" CCTV camera.

The device, costing significantly less than existing technology, would track human motion and signal anything suspicious to a human operator.

Douglas Macdonald, from Glasgow, has been given the grant to develop the product by the Executive.

Douglas, 38, who has an astrophysics degree, expects a prototype to be ready in a year and the product to be on the market in three years.

He said: "I have a concept to use computer vision to interpret human behaviour and what people are likely to do next.

"It is about learning modus operandi. Cameras can identify people who have characteristics relating to suspicious behaviour, people we can't be sure about.

"It can catch your attention and it is down to a human to make the decision.

"It means businesses can use their security resources more effectively."

The camera was one of 19 research and development projects in Scotland to receive a share of pounds 950,000.

*****Since the government is meddling here, I suppose this is bound to fail, except for the amount of math required his college degree.

So much for small Scottish brains, enjoy our haggis instead.

Gregory

Finish hitting yourself with that 2x2 and we'll talk. Maybe Ryan will decide to expound on his use of "rote" while we're waiting.

She Charles... there's something I've got to tell you...
Charles What is it darling?
She It's daddy ... he's turned into a Scotsman...
Charles What! Mr Llewellyn?
She Yes, Charles. Help me, please help me.
Charles But what can I do?
She Surely, Charles, you're the Chief Scientist at the Anthropological Research Institute, at Butley Down - an expert in what makes people change from one nationality to another.
Charles So I am! (pull out to reveal they are in a laboratory; he is in a white coat, she is in something absurdly sexy) This is right up my street!
She Oh good.
Charles Now first of all, why would anyone turn into a Scotsman?
She (tentatively) Em, for business reasons?
Charles No, no! Only because he has no control over his own destiny! Look I'll show you...
He presses a button on a control board and a laboratory TV screen lights op with the words 'only because they have no control over their own destinies'.
She I see.
Charles Yes! So this means that some person or persons unknown is turning all these people into Scotsmen...
She Oh, what kind of heartless fiend could do that to a man?

Douglas Keachie

Obviously the anger that caused Hadrian to build his wall is still alive and well in the gene pool south of it. Nice wall, visible from space.

Northern Light: Arrow 42/52

Gregory

LOL

Keach, I've arguably more Scottish DNA than English, but you fit the stereotype so well, the old Monty Python Science Fiction Sketch lines are perfect. If it wasn't for Lagavulin and my favorite brand of ADS-B 1090ES transponders (including a volume control that goes to 11), I'm not sure there's anything in the old country that's worthwhile to me. Human at least. A proper colliedog is probably both smarter and better looking than the scrawny cur in your photo.

The funniest thing was your usual googling for factoids rather than just taking it for what it was.

Perhaps you're not hitting yourself hard enough. Try cutting the 2x2 into shorter sections and get a good fast swing going

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