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« Judea Pearl, Turing Laureate | Main | Ackerman to leave The Union »

19 June 2012

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Comments

Ryan Mount

Why do we need this again? And why would anyone on the Left or Right think this is a good idea?

Earl Crabb

No, no...It's not the droning sound you hear, it's the buzzing of the common housefly. Wait!..If you look a little closer you'll notice that it's actually a miniaturized robot, complete with camera. And what about the bedbugs? Will some enterprising soul invent Robo-Raid?

Douglas Keachie

Planning and Zoning UAV will patrol, and zero in on any heavy equipment operating or hammers pounding that are not in their database of approved permits. The fines generated will go towards buying even better ones, until we each have our own, watching 24/7/365.

Tunneling will become much more popular.

Scott Obermuller

The Earl of Crab is on to something. They brag about how small they can make a drone. Will we be in trouble for using bug spray on a drone mistaken for a common flying pest? "Propane? er, my mistake - I thought it were Raid, me lord!" Small ground to air missiles will be the new high school prank.

billy T

Don't kid yourselves, fellas. The tiny drones have been around a long time. American poet Emily Dickerson (December 10, 1830 – May 15, 1886) wrote about it in her opening line 'I heard a Fly buzz when I died'. Notice she purposely capitalized the F in fly, thus sending us all a ominous warning. Back then the expression was "What would I give to have my Fly on the wall", but the secret shadow government changed it to "What I would give to Be a fly on the wall". Subtle, simple and clever, yet even then they tried to keep this potentially controversial technology hidden from those that do not have a need to know. They even peddled tiny devices hidden in Roach Motels. A flawed plan indeed as the roaches did unspeakable things to the tiny "bugs". Remember the old graffiti on the bathroom walls in truck stops? "Don't drop toothpicks in the toilet-the craps can pole vault." No offense to Mr. Crabb intended. Mutiple clues to the mystery have been left by many using various seemingly benign methods in hopes those that have ears can hear, those that have eyes could see. Yes, the information highway has finally exposed the shadow government's devious deeds.

George Rebane

Let's keep that sense of humor going, it may be all that we will have left.
http://youtu.be/-LOBSje-3x8

Russ Steele

Back on a more serious note. Southern CA counties were using, an may still be using, the highest resolution Google earth photos to see if people were clearing brush from around their homes. County staff was issuing citation with outevery leaving their desks. Now Goggle is going to produce 3D photos of even higher resolution. Reason for the upgrade? Public demand according to Google. What public demand, government or businesses?

I saw a demonstration of 3D maps that were developed from aerial photos. The maps were used by drone pilots to pre-fly critical missions, before the actual flight. It was awesome at low level you could almost see into buildings. Now the technology is 15 years more advanced.

Douglas Keachie

Next up, robo-snakes, watch for the antenna, not the rattles, in the tail. Robo-fence lizards would be impossible to spot.

Michael Anderson

George, I'm not sure I'm finding the comedy in a fake hummingbird coming into my garden to listen to me talking on the phone to my plumber about a leak in the basement.

But I am now mostly scared of pole-vaulting turds, and I have BillyT to thank for that mind image that probably won't go away until sometime tomorrow afternoon.

I hope this comment doesn't make me "The Misanthrope."

George Rebane

Bear in mind that someone has to monitor what these UAMs and UAVs see and record. That will require the hiring of thousands of low-level people who can be trained very easily to spot whatever their hiring agency is interested in. Think of it as a full employment opportunity. Sort of like the Stasi in East Germany that had one out of three citizens to keep an eye on and report the doings of the other two.

Gregory

Pull!

Be thankful for waste, abuse and wealth transfers, imagine what could happen if we actually had the government we're paying for.

billy T

My apologies Gentlemen, especially to Mr. Anderson. Of course this is a grave matter. Thank you for pointing out the grievous errors of my thoughtlessness. I did not mean to use the word "crap" at all. Typo. I mean to say "Remember the old graffiti on the bathroom walls in truck stops? 'Don't drop toothpicks in the toilet-the crabs can pole vault.' No offense to Mr. Crabb intended." I had no intention of being vulgar. Sweet dreams Mr. Anderson. Yes, this is a serious tissue.

Earl Crabb

No apologies needed, Billy T. We crabs have thick shells. Being a fan of sci-fi/fantasy, I have always thought that Geo. Lucas had the best line relating to our predicament when Princess Amidala opined "So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause." And we all remember Ben "lightning rod" Franklin's warning about trading freedom for security. We do indeed live in interesting times. The problem being that others are too interested in what we are up to behind our castle walls.

Russ Steele

The kinds of drones making the headlines daily are the heavily armed CIA and U.S. Army vehicles which routinely strike targets in Pakistan - killing terrorists and innocents alike.

But the real high-tech story of surveillance drones is going on at a much smaller level, as tiny remote controlled vehicles based on insects are already likely being deployed.

Over recent years a range of miniature drones, or micro air vehicles (MAVs), based on the same physics used by flying insects, have been presented to the public. Pictures in the link below:


Details here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2161647/Is-really-just-fly-Swarms-cyborg-insect-drones-future-military-surveillance.html#ixzz1yLMWBUD0

Douglas Keachie

Let's not forget that we are getting a gov with a 1,000,000 sq foot server farm almost finished, or at least the decoy is. My guess is that the real one is in a much more hardened site. Take that kind of storage, and add to it AI programs that look for suspicious behavior, and your electronic stasis will winnow the job down to managable size quickly. Back in the late 1980's or so I had heard that it took at least one full time employee to keep a network of 50 computers going. I wonder what the figure is now?

Skynet's hardware is almost in place. I think putting a failsafe nuke in the middle of that complex, operated and protected by strictly mechanical connections to the trigger point, again a strictly mechanically hardened site, would be a damn good idea. And make sure it is all earthquake safe.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/21/exposed_inside_the_nsas_largest_and

Todd Juvinall

The Obama "press conference" from CABO last night was the latest droning sound. What a joke.

Paul Emery

What's new about this? Nevada County has been hiring surveillance flyover services for years without a peep of resistance from the so called conservatives. Hypocrisy to the max for sure.

THEMIKEYMCD

Reminder: It was George W Bush who signed the Patriot Act into existence.

It's not the left versus right, it's the State versus the individual

George Rebane

PaulE 1053am - you miss the quantum technology advances and its potential uses on two fronts if you see nothing new in miniaturized UAVs. And your unusual charge of "hypocrisy" is addressed in Mikey's 1138am. The potential for state sponsored terrorism on their own citizens is orders of magnitude greater with this technology as is apparent to ideologues of all stripes.

Ryan Mount

Mikey gets two points for nailing it.

Paul Emery

True George but who cares? The approval of backyard inspection flyovers by county Supes checking for illegal foliage by most Repubs and Conservatives indicates to me that they don't care about government intrusion into our privacy.

George Rebane

PaulE 835pm - what the Supes "don't care about", what we voters care about, and the level of intrusion are all orthogonal. Since I don't grow grass and that's what they can tell from orbit, a U-2, or a helicopter flyover, I am not concerned even were there was something I could do about it, because the information about me is limited and not in an area I consider private. (Vertical privacy was lost to us since the 1920s.)

However a small government or corporate UAV perched on a branch outside my bedroom window, seeing and hearing what I do and say is another matter, and something that I will take formal notice of in the protests to my electeds.

Douglas Keachie

But of course, George, but first you must have proof that it existed, and is not photoshopped. I would suggest the new Adobe product, "Birdshot Round."

Douglas Keachie

Just think how popular how towns would be with tourists if the LE had autoscan cameras that checked every license plate as they came through town, and autochecked the databases for possible ticketing for expired reg, parking ticket scofflaws, etc. Plenty of revenue there until word got out that you could come to Nevada City and get booted...

Douglas Keachie

Here's a freebie for our techies who need employment: Patent a device that listened for drones. By building a library of known drone sounds and adding to it monthly, you'd have a damn good revenue stream from those who want to know when electromechanical lurkers are nearby. The premium model would scan and locate, and display the location on your screen. SiperPremium would blind it via laser and deafen it with white noise. Of course you want to locate that part of the device on your neighbor's property, no telling who might show up.

billy T

Doug is on to something. I am certain that our enterprising youth can come up with counter measures. We had "fuzz busters" on the market once for those who enjoyed speeding. There are jammers and bug zappers and little devices to shoo away critters. Somebody will come up some electromagnet doo-hickey to confuse the cute little drones or remotely disable their power source and sense of direction. Maybe even a device that will make them chew on power lines like the crispy squirrels do on occasion. Perhaps a whatz-u-call-it device that would make the drone seek and find another drone in a vain attempt to reproduce. Yes, there will be laws written about destruction of government property and all as our lawmakers write more and more laws. I suppose some libertarian will demand to face his accuser in court and not waive his right to a speedy trial, thus confusing the whole legal system. Of course the little drone that was shot, burned, smashed, crushed, chewed on by the dog and fried like a Frito would be evidence and it is doubtful the evidence could stand up in court. I trust the young techies of America to make some wickedly creative fly swatters.

George Rebane

DougK 1028pm - Au contraire Doug, there is no need of proof from me for any of this stuff to happen. In fact it is much better if people like you and I don't have any proof, and dismiss the whole thing as feverish photoshopping.

Douglas Keachie

Yours in Denial, George.

Gregory

No, Billy, there's nothing that could be built to defeat drones that wouldn't run afoul of a number of laws with real teeth from real Feds, starting with the FCC and going up from there. And if you try to jam GPS signals there would really be hell to pay.

Keachie as usual is out in left field. There's nothing patentable there. Signature analysis is old news.

Douglas Keachie

Inventions are often concatenations of several old ideas into one new product. That's why ATT doesn't hold the patent rights on cell phones. Greg is the water boy, and obviously doesn't understand the rules of the game very well, despite having a patent or two to his name. I wonder what a court would say about gov microdrones being pounced on by our dogs, who track the circling turkey vultures, hoping that one will land someday.

Someday I'd like to have as big a pack as this:

HomeSecurity

Paul Emery

So George I take it you don't care about the principle involved with flyover inspections as long as they don't involve you. Do then you support "vertical privacy" or in your opinion is this fair game?

Todd Juvinall

I am for no flyover to uncover alleged scofflaws unless they are fleeing at the moment. I would expect that any flyover to uncover a pot garden, zoning violation or illicit cavorting in a outside hot tub will morph into a abuse of government as is always the case.

George Rebane

PaulE 1040am - No, I'm saying that we lost flyover privacy before I was born, just as we lost 'from the street picture window privacy' since anyone on a public roadway is free to inspect your property for whatever is visible from there.

Being in the sky at a sufficient altitude where it is legal to safely fly is a similar issue, and anything seen from there is also fair game. For example, when I fly my rented DA-20 legally over Nevada County and look down, everything I see in your back yard is 'fair game', and you cannot stop me from reporting whatever was visible to me from that airplane.

Where it gets dicey is when I or the government routinely flies a UAV below tree top levels into your enclosed back yard, and without a warrant looks into your windows when you believe you have privacy. I believe that is the issue we are now discussing as technology advances. Today trying to regain street or sky privacy, even if we ever had it, is a fool's errand.

Gregory


George, I didn't know you'd been flying.

Anyone want to go flyover Keachie's house to take pictures? At the appropriate speed (that would be best dwell, about Vy/1.32 for the pilots out there) I can circle for up to about 12 hours before fuel gets low enough to force an end or until the first bladder makes the decision to return to the airport, whichever comes first.

500' is the lowest legal altitude, but I'd want us to stay at around 1000' most of the time.

I can take two or three passengers depending upon weight. I'm not commercially rated and so cannot charge you for the experience, but can legally share the direct expenses of avgas and oil.

Bring extra datacards, you wouldn't want to miss anything.

George Rebane

Gregory 900am - This month's WIRED just came, and features miniature UAVs. At the prices these little things can be bought by anyone, I would be surprised if people would let them dwell over their property at below tree top level. I sure wouldn't.

Am not sure why anyone would want to peek in on Mr Keachie. I don't recall that he's reported any interesting projects on his property. Besides, I'd be pissed if someone droned 500' above my house for any length of time.

(Yes, I'm a student pilot at Alpine Aviation in the cross-country phase of training, whose wife does not see the sense of flying around in light airplanes. I was an air qualified observer in the artillery years ago when one of the battalion pilots taught me the elements of flying an L-19 in case I had to land the damn thing.)

Gregory

I've heard complaints coming in at the airport when Keachie's rental plane and pilot, supporting his photoshoot, lingered too long and perhaps too low in the same general North San Juan vicinity, and, in fact, using the same plane and professional pilot you rent :)

And then there's my complaints about the constant attacks here and elsewhere from Keach. Including a particularly idiotic one on 22 June 2012 at 08:31 AM.

I think it might be fun. Seats are filling fast. ;)

Douglas Keachie

Hey , I'll take a seat, far cheaper than paying Gorden Mills $180/hour. For a final image of Ground based UAV's, try this on for size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/65281423@N06/7315812970/

Douglas Keachie

And now, for fun and games with drones: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/327529

Bill Tozer

I need a new pair of glasses. I fail to see any video or photo of the BM actually burning. Maybe it was one of those optical illusion type of things.

Michael Anderson

Bill. It was an art tour. Before the burning happened.

I mostly posted this so Todd could point out the perverts for me. I couldn't find any.

Paul Emery

Lorraine Reich, a local attorney has prepared an anti drone imitative rejected by Nevada County Council on the grounds that we do not have jurisdiction over air space above our property. There is currently nothing in place to prevent your neighbor from buying a drone and cruising around your property to check it out and report code violations to the County.

There was a drone sighting at the County Fair during the Wednesday grandstand show. It was reported to me and was even commented on by the announcer. It was helicopter like and about 6' wide. The Sheriff denied using it which I believe although he did express to me the possible use of drones in the future for crowd observations. It is likely that the drone was operated by http://www.eclipseaerialsolutions.com/

Here is the initative before the Supes
http://www.scribd.com/doc/154540240/Nevada-County-Drone-Initiative-Title-and-Summary-Request

Todd Juvinall

The pervs are there at BM, just dressed funny.

Michael Anderson

Paul, there were at least 10 different drone operators that I saw at the event this year. That's up from just a couple last year. The technology is improving exponentially.

I appreciate what Reich is attempting, but I think in the end she will not be successful. The FAA will be the deciding agency: http://bit.ly/17SOI2W

Bill Tozer

Boy Mr. Anderson, you really get your jollies off by having Todd call you a pervert and deviate. Like it tickles your fancy a wee bit too much for the average bear.

If that is what you are into, well, who am I to put it down. If you like, I can put on my 9" stilettos and drive them into your forehead while calling you a worm as you lick my ankles. That is IF I let you lick my ankles, barf maggot. You have been a naughty boy, go to Mistress Wicked Billy's room NOW. Crawl quicker worm!

Got to think of others in this world. Just trying to be of service, perv.

Michael Anderson

You're unclear on the concept with that comment, Bill. Please don't channel Toodles, he's just a failed supervisor and builder who revels in pumping up that which cannot be pumped. I will say that you seem to know your way around the dom-bond nomenclature, which is really just too much information for these tender ears.

Let's get back to drones. Are you for 'em or agin' 'em? I happen to be against, which I am imagining is an opinion you share. If a drone with a camera came into the airspace above your property (< 1K AGL), would you feel justified in shooting it down? I certainly would, though current law and precedent would probably not support that opinion.

Gregory

If it isn't FAA registered and is below 500' above ground level, I don't see much to keep a drone from being shot down by someone protecting themselves and their property.

Here you go, depleted uranium 12 gauge anti-drone shotgun shells claiming a 1km range. Get yours now.
http://www.luckygunner.com/12ga-3-uranium-drone-load-tacnition-5-rounds

"for entertainment purposes only"

Todd Juvinall

BiiT has it right on his view of the pervs that go to Burning Man. But those same pervs can vote and now we see what we get and America is not better off. MishaelA is a failed local transplant here and not well thought of a someone people want to be around. That is a 180 degree from myself who is dearly loved and respevted in our community. LOL!

Bill Tozer

Short answer: blast away.
Long answer: It may be like shooting a police dog, which is a Bozo No-No. A small drone hovering over the back porch would not be for commercial purposes. Now, if I was a meth head or had an illegal grow going on, it would make me more paranoid that a ho in church. Guess it depends it is was just passing thru or hanging around. Don't think they have a long range currently, which means "they" will be coming soon.

Don't think any of us would object to drones used for search and rescue or the like. I would not be opposed to using drones in the National or State Forests to catch some of illegal Mexican growers polluting our watersheds. Seems they never catch the peons at the camp, just their piles of rubbish. I can envision even NID using them along canals, or PG&E looking for downed lines after a storm.


Bottom line. If it is hanging around and spying on little ole me for no good reason, this law abiding citizen would be tempted to mistake it for a predator attacking my cat and drive what is left of it to the e-waste recycling center. Gotta recycle things in their proper place.

Todd Juvinall

Remeber, these anti drone types like PaulE and MichaelA were very happy to have the NH2020 police come on your property and count the plants types and critters. Too funny.

Paul Emery

I think Todd should start his own blog. I suggest calling it the Lizards Breath.

Todd, if you're sooooo loved in the community why do you have to join dating services to try to pick up on liberal women. Looking for hippie nookie I guess. Pretty boring on the conservative side. I know, that's why I switched to the libs back in my college days from being a Barry Goldwater Conservative. Much more fun.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, I am so in demand I have to use the internet. I get mobbed by babes hen I am seen in town.

George Rebane

Gentlemen, RR is not a forum for explicating readers' sexual deficits or desiderata. No doubt more suitable ones exist. Nuff said.

Todd Juvinall

Sorry George I was just kidding.

Walt

Leave it to a local LIB litigator to try and ban,and outlaw any remote controlled
aircraft. has this woman demanded Betty's toy box be raided for their R/C customer data base?
It's time to buy a "drone". Camera and all. Why? because someone want's to tell me I can't. I did the same when the evil Bushmaster AR was tarred and feathered.
I foresaw what was coming the day after the CO. theater shooting.
Now to scrounge together the bucks for a quad rotor, HD cam with FLIR, and inferred.
I'm glad I saved my radio control equipment from my early days of R/C flying.
Ya' never know when those will come in handy.

Paul Emery

Walt

So you don't have a problem with your neighbor having the right to buzz a drone around your property and take photo's?

George Rebane

Walt 1250pm - Please share with us the configuration of the drone rig that you assemble, if you will. May want to strap one of those things together myself ;-)

Walt

Paul. My neighbor? Let him... He may go blind from what he may see.
It's the "G" man I take issue with. The "unreasonable search" from above
has been going on unchecked as it is.

George. It all depends on how much to spend. ( I gotta go on the cheap)
The quad rotor is a nice stable platform, with a good lifting capability,
and can hover vary well. ( there are a few that are gyro stabilized... but out of my price range.)
A 1/8 scale helicopter was the "go to" before the quad rotor came out, and the cost is more to my liking.
An air to ground video link would be great, but I'm still at duct taping
the handicam to the undercarriage stage. ( I'm a cheap SOB)
Back in the good ol' days I hade a prefab, foam plane I stuck a disposable
film camera in. I never knew what I would get a picture of. But it was fun.
(one of those first, cheap auto wined jobs)
That was 25 years ago.
With todays options building one with off the shelf parts is easy.
I would have to get my computer genius Son to pick the "right tools for the job", since new stuff comes out almost weekly. Assembly and flight is the easy part.
The only real use I would have, is to peek over and see what laws elected government officials are breaking.( add ECO tyrants to that) They growing dope? Unpermitted structures?
grading without a permit? You know,,, the same stuff they fine US for.

Actually,, you can go to any mall and buy a helicopter with a built in video cam. But VARY short range. ( about 50 yards at best)

Walt

Instead of spending time piecing one together,
This is a good way to start.

http://www.draganfly.com/uav-helicopter/draganflyer-x6a/

To get started decide on a camera payload of either the Panasonic 20X optical zoom TZ-30(ZS20) or Thermal FLIR Tau.
I would get both cameras.

Paul Emery

So once again no support from the so called property rights crowd on this basic privacy issue. Trying to find any common ground seems to be impossible. So drone away with partisan bullshit and give the powers that be one more tool to control us. The reality of snooping by neighbors and cops is not new but the cavalier attitude by those who claim to oppose such actions is remarkable.

George Rebane

PaulE 301pm - what support are you looking for Paul? I guess you again didn't read the post.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, why no response to the fact you support NH2020 police and are against the drones? Don't you think your sincerity is suspect?

Paul Emery

Todd

You apparently forgot that I was opposed to NH2020 so don't make things up and misrepresent me. Do we have to go back to that again? Must be a memory loss problem.

George, what we have here is a firm proposal to ban Drones in Nevada County for all activities except those spelled out in the initative. I doubt most on this blog have yet not read the Initative. Talk is cheap. This is a real proposal on the table.

Once again I'll post the link.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/154540240/Nevada-County-Drone-Initiative-Title-and-Summary-Request

Paul Emery

double negative

should read I doubt most on this blog have read the Initiative.

Walt

Now that ya' got me looking closer at these things, and just what is out there,
I found a neat one for under 5 Benjamins! ( My price range)
This one even has auto pilot! It's called "spy hawk". A google search will bring you right to it.
Now it's time to hold a yard sale.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, where is the proof you were against it at the time. Please give me some articles quoting you or links with your name showing you did not support the NH2020. I think I am actually coerract here.

Paul Emery

Not available or necessary Todd. Do you ask that of everyone who expresses an opinion? There was a group of us who felt NH2020 was unnecessary and divisive. Things aren't always what you assume Todd. Personally what you think is irrelevant to me anyway so whatever-it's all good.

Gregory

Paul, I don't think I've ever seen a more fundamentally flawed proposed ordinance as that drone screed.

A summary:
Any remote controlled model with a camera is unlawful in Nevada County, even over your own property.

You have to pay someone $5K if you take pics of them or their property no matter if the pic was taken intentionally and no matter what the intent or use of those pics might be.

Police/fire/rescue can use drones in very limited circumstances, not including looking for pot grows on public land.

Nice try, guys. Not a chance.

Paul Emery

What is your recommendation Gregory? Do you feel the need to protect privacy? By the way thanks for reading the link

Michael Anderson

Wow, this drone thread is popular.

I'm with George and DM, I need to procure a fleet of these babies. At least two in the sky at all times, patrolling the perimeter of my property, on alert.

Maybe arm 'em later in the exercise...

Gregory

Paul, there is nothing in that ordinance that properly protects privacy and property rights.

I have a right to operate any drone at low altitude over my property, the property of others with permission or public property (the latter could be subject to safety regulations).

On public land, there is no expectation of privacy out in the open. Do the horizontal bop in a tent if you don't want to be seen by scouts on a hike, the cops or someone operating a glider with a GoPro attached. If you don't want a pot grow to be seen from the air, don't grow outside, especially on property you don't own.

Gregory

Terrestrial cameras are more cost effective.

The Peace Center offering is so transparently against drones being used for pot searches on public land (or by neighbors operating a drone within their property lines) they'd have been better off just writing what they wanted and not be seen as disingenuous.

Michael Anderson

Gregory wrote: "On public land, there is no expectation of privacy out in the open. Do the horizontal bop in a tent if you don't want to be seen by scouts on a hike, the cops or someone operating a glider with a GoPro attached. If you don't want a pot grow to be seen from the air, don't grow outside, especially on property you don't own."

Oh man, no truer words were spoken. Which is why Todd's Burning Man comments are so completely idiotic. A decade or so ago, yeah things happened on the playa that were (cough) untoward. Not today. IT'S PUBLIC LAND, CRAWLING WITH COPS. If you smoke a doobie on the playa, you WILL be busted. If you pee in the open, you WILL get a very expensive ticket. No open sex, kids, just like no open sex is allowed on Broad Street.

But I don't fault Todd for not keeping up with the times. He lives in a little Calendar Box from 1954, eating grilled cheese sandwiches made from American cheese and Wonder Bread, staring at his Ronald Reagan pictures in his garage for hours at a time, and scouring the Mine Shaft/McGee's for hippie chicks (thank you, Paul) that will give him at least one tumble before they realize he's a troglodyte.

Gregory

"Machado says the crimes reported at burning man this year included open and gross lewdness, twelve sexual assaults, battery and various property crimes and DUI."

It does seem that Todd wasn't all that far off. I'd guess there was more open and gross lewdness than the cops managed to witness.

Michael Anderson

Have you ever attended, Greg? Or are you just reporting from the seat of your pants, as usual?

Machado has his panties in a bunch probably due to some political considerations of which you are most likely unaware.

The fact of the matter is that since about 2004 Burning Man has been scrutinized by LE to a much higher degree than other festivals like Coachella or Lollapalooza. And Pershing County is suing Burning Man, LLC for a greater cut of the $$, being the bastard step-child county (population ~7K) to Washoe County, which rakes in the dough and views folks like Sheriff Machado as a pain in the rear.

The amount of crime during the 7 days that the largest art festival in the world is open is FAR LESS than the average crime stats you would find in any city of 68,000 during the same period of time. FAR LOWER, in all categories. It's just a fact, and it cannot be refuted. But I welcome you to try.

Greg, if you want to take Toodles' side on this discussion, bring it on. But I suggest you do some more reading before you go there. Here's a good start: http://www.rgj.com/article/20130823/EVENTS04/308230039/State-fed-law-enforcement-integrates-2013-Burning-Man

Michael Anderson

One thing that many people who have never been to Burning Man don't realize is that there are a huge number of attendees who are Republicans and Libertarians. One of the things I enjoy most about this event is being able to sit down to a meal with folks with which I am philosophically opposed in certain areas, and we find common ground and work together to make the event the success that it is today.

I know for a FACT that if George and Todd were to attend, they would say, "oh, I had no idea...this is nothing like what I thought it was." Maybe in 2014.

Here is another link that might help y'all grock what's going on out there in the Big Dusty: http://nevadastatepersonnelwatch.wordpress.com/tag/sheriff-machado/
The First and Fourth Amendments live strong on the playa. And back in the day, the Second Amendment reigned supreme.

People who comment on Burning Man who have never attended the event is sort of like someone trying to comment on a Carnival cruise without ever having sailed on the open sea.

Todd Juvinall

Paul Emery | 10 September 2013 at 05:03 PM
PaulE dodges again by telling all how he could care less about me or my questions then jumps into personal private attacks. Too funny. PaulE, you are a total hypocrite and all can read it here. You cannot produce anything written or spoken on your claim to be opposed to NH2020 and we are to believe it? Sorry Charlie. Produce something from the time and I will stop asking. But you won't because they do not exist. You are a KVMR radio host with opinions and news opinions. But as usual you are against drones but favored NH2020 police on our private property.

MichaelA is now dissing the Sheriff at BM for doing his job and arresting the pervs and criminals there. MA even tries to convince the readers that the crimes there are no different than any city (ask the rape victims MA). Sorry but that is the lamest crapola spewed from his mouth in at least a day. BM is a bunch of loony tunes running around in bunny suits (pr none at all) and doing odd and perverted things to one another. Drones can help keep the peace out there on our public lands. I am not to keen on nuts like MA using my lands as a perv dump off for so-called "art"

Walt

Need a good laugh? I don't know how I didn't hear about it before.

"The Sierra Sun reports that Neil Young was on his way to an environmentalists festival when his custom-made $1 million biomass-powered hybrid electric car broke down on a stretch of California highway lookin’ more than two lanes wide near Donner Summit last month."

http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/10/neil-young-went-crazy-horse-after-his-electric-car-broke-down/

Bill Tozer

Paul E, I have not read the drone ordinance yet. But, I finally did read your Marijuana Emergency Ordinance you posted a few months back and it was informative.

The preface to the ordinance was to prevent crime by farm bandits by keeping gardens out of sight. And to prevent young juveniles from seeing a plant and making it too much temptation for the youngins. And respect for adjoining parcels. Never could figure out what a translucent fence is. I guess deer fencing would be transparent and an old fashioned dog eared wooden fence would be opaque. Translucent would be plastic?

To tie this into government agency drones, I suspect pot garden setbacks and sq footage size would alarm only those in violation. Read that you cannot have it so many feet from a neighbors home if you have different size parcels in different zoning. Like 300' from an adjoining parcels house if you have 10 acres and it is zoned agricultural, 200' feet if you have 5 acres (but less than 10 acres) in the same zoning. Growing on a vacant adjoining parcel is forbidden.

Drones in this case could fly over vacant parcels and find the law breakers...er...those out of compliance.

I always wonder why a patient would need pounds of medicine each year. I am told by those in the know that 6 plants should produce ten pounds of medicine. That is a lot of huffing and puffing over one year's time.

I can understand this drone thing strikes a nerve with all of us. We are getting leery and weary of the NSA doing the anal probe of our life's history and recording our daily to and fros. Just a couple of days ago it was announced that "they" can hack into Blackberries and I-phones and I-pads easily. "They" also said not to worry, they will only use it to for the bad guys.

Bad guys like vets, Christians, gun owners, Tea Party folk, and others that are a threat to National Security. Especially them Christians. Profiling? Nah, that is something the libs would never go along with.

Heck, Google has already done its street by street video mapping of the entire country. I checked it out once myself. I could zoom in on that little Hawaiian hula dancer I formerly had on my dash on a car before I took it to the junk yard. She looked so cute from outer space.

Drone ordinances and little butterfly drones in general just add to the suspicion of Big Brother watching you scratch your head and another "us" vs "them" issue. Thanks for the link, I will read it tomorrow.

Michael Anderson

Todd, why is it that you are so immune to facts and figures? As George and Greg constantly harp upon (and I agree with them), innumeracy is a debilitating socioeconomic condition and we must stomp it out. When will you step up to the podium, admit your debilitation, and commit to the hard work to fix your problem?

Todd wrote: "I am not to keen on nuts like MA using my lands as a perv dump off for so-called 'art'."

Wow, pretty open-minded there. Isn't the BLM all about the "Land of Many Uses"? I guess you are not much of a less-gov't libertarian after all. Just another authoritarian asshole who doesn't know how to use a spell checker.

Finally, the only "perv" going on here is in your twisted little still-7th grade mind, trying to get under the shirt of sweet little Sarah, who caught on to your pervy ideas and ran from away from you under the football field bleachers at NU. Whatever.

Isn't it time for some waffles?

Todd Juvinall

No MichaelA, the facts are on my side. Sure, you and your lib loons can criticize others spelling and feel superior I guess, but that hubris does not bother me at all. Burning Man is as I said, the Sheriff of the county agrees and your are wrong again.

I do admit my superiority though in the attraction Sarah has for me. Too funny.

Michael Anderson

Tozer, I have that exact same hula dancer glued to the dash of my art truck...she's been there since 1997. See? We have something in common! Kumbaya, etc.

BTW, I'll be on KNCO tomorrow at aprox. 12:30 pm being interviewed about Internet security, NSA probes, and other nefarious gov't intrusions. Turn up the volume and have a fun radio romp while chewing your rubber sandwich. Todd, I promise not to mention you by name (-;

Gregory

mandersonation, you are conflating two issues. Personally, I think perversity, debauchery and drug use on a Hunter S. Thompson scale is OK among consenting adults. The issue was Todd saying the playa party was closer to that than the Lawrence Welk Show and you pretending it was good fun for the whole family.

There may be as much open and gross lewdness, sexual assaults, battery and various property crimes and DUI in, say, St.George, Utah as at Burning Man, but I doubt it. I'm also sad for all the young un's for whom "sex, drugs and rock and roll" was instead masturbation, crack and Madonna. That explains a lot.

Gregory

I second the fond memory of Sarah. What a babe.

Todd Juvinall

I had a radio shoe for four years on KNCO and debated liberals and other nuts. 1995 to 1998. I gave it over to Karen Chileski. That was accomplished because the ownership had fired Jim Ruffalo and I organized a huge protest in the rain and the owners saw the results of their folly. I was Chairman of the Republicans (I was elected again) and had CABPRO going then. I think you may have been up at McGees talking about ganga fertilizer. So you go tell the public all about the drones at Burning Man and you can use my name as one who believes anyone attending is a perv. Too funny.

Michael Anderson

Greg: "... was instead masturbation, crack and Madonna."

Not sure where that came from, but one of the best dancing spots at Burning Man is Distrikt, which is basically a mini spring-break manifestation that happens every day during the event between noon and sundown, probably the most egregious young-un clothes-off party on the playa, and a big favorite of LE. They LOVE to "police" Distrikt, all in the name of safety and security (-:

Talk about pervs, LE are the biggest boner hounds on the playa. Just sayin'.

Michael Anderson

Todd warbled: "So you go tell the public all about the drones at Burning Man and you can use my name as one who believes anyone attending is a perv."

Dude, the subject matter tomorrow has nothing to do with Burning Man. I was referencing you in terms of describing people who are low-information citizens (Rush Limbaugh's terminology), and promising that I would not describe you by name as such. Even though you are a perfect example. A poster child.

Michael Anderson

BTW, Maxwell Smart had a radio shoe. And we all know how well that worked!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJiV1XWtCyk

Todd Juvinall

The point your low information brain misses MichaelA is I discussed government surveillance and you totally missed it apparently. You are just dense, and no one cares what you say anyway. You are truly the Maxwell Smart of these blogs. Too funny!

Gregory

The note about Distrikt also boosts Todd's jabs so I'm not sure why MA included it, and "Just sayin'" is one of the emptiest phrases on the planet.

Most burners are too young to have ever attended a Dead concert as an adult; large crowds with a crime rate more like St.George, UT than the Playa, and as the Firesign Theater might have remarked, attendees took drugs seriously at Grateful Dead concerts.

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