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23 October 2012

Comments

Walt

Well put Sir.

Billy T and the Movements

Although Romney did not come out and say it, I believe he may be starting to think it: Obama just does not get it on foreign policy and the economy.

Obama does not seem to understand that the Islamic World has ragheads in their midst. These ragheads are driven by one thing. An Islamic dominated world in which all submit to Islam and Sharia Law. Period. These ragheads are gaining power across the Middle East and Northern Africa and control the very seats of government. And the military in many cases. Obama fails to understand that free elections have nothing to do with free speech and freedom of association. Obama does not understand the threat. Just today and man was imprisoned for criticizing the Egyptian President.

Romney's better statement last night is that the US does not control these regimes or tell them what to do. We free those people. Obama had no comeback.

Obama does not understand how the economy works either. Nor does he understand fiscal policy. He just does not get it. He does not grasp how the real world works. He loves Krugman and Krugman gets it wrong more often than not, to be kind.

Foreign policy?? As State Department Hillary Clinton herself said, "The economy is the biggest threat to national security."

Foreign policy? The bottom line is its still about the economy, stupid. Obama can't dodge this issue forever.

More on the Obama/Krugman view: http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/10/23/why-is-uncertainty-so-unbelievable-to-paul-krugman/

Jesus Betterman

I think Romney's countenance of restrained smirk may have been partially well practiced and partially drug induced

Jesus Betterman

" These ragheads are driven by one thing. An Islamic dominated world in which all submit to Islam and Sharia Law."

Sounds like "Manifest Destiny" doesn't it?

Walt

Nope,, not one bit Doug. The ones you are trying to make excuses for tried to kill a little girl because she dared to stand up to them. All because she wanted to go to school. Why don't you look into that? HELL,, Why don't you track down their reason and "public" apology. Then come back and stand in "their" corner some more.
You still buy that " tolerance, and religion of piece" crap? I sure don't.

Walt

It time to call "him" what he is. OWEBAMA. He is stiffing cities and towns that had to shell out big bucks when he rolled into town. It seems these communities will now have to eat those expenses.
You think the money Owebama and the DNC just "borrowed" from B of A was to offset those costs? NOPE..... Just more money to wizz away and "redistribute" to the likes of CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ETC. in the name of "advertisement".
That record amount of campaign contributions is gone Just like Owebama handled the finances of the U.S.A. GONE,, with nothing to show for it.

Paul Emery

Yes Manifest Destiny. We felt we were destined to conquer and possess all of what we call the United States despite the sovereignty of native peoples that have lived on that land for thousands of years. How is that different than militant Islamic ambitions? AS recently as 1890 we slaughtered Native men woman and children at Wounded Knee when they challenged our invasion of their traditional lands. That was around the same time we tested the waters of imperialism by conquering the Philippines for example, which was hardly a contiguous expansion, in our imperialistic expansion around the world. Historically we hardly have practiced what we are now preaching about militant Islam.

Gregory

Paul, I'd say the most glaring difference is that Manifest Destiny was never universally adopted in the US, had a core of about 50 years among proponents and was pretty much gone as an banner before a century had passed.

The Whigs (the libertarians of the day except they actually had elected 4 presidents in the 20 years they held together) denounced it in 1848, arguing in Congress "that the designers and supporters of schemes of conquest, to be carried on by this government, are engaged in treason to our Constitution and Declaration of Rights, giving aid and comfort to the enemies of republicanism, in that they are advocating and preaching the doctrine of the right of conquest"

In contrast, the interpretations of Islam (Submission) started by the warrior prophet of Allah has been around for about 1400 years and is in an expansion phase at the moment.

Jesus Betterman

Way ahead of you, Walt. This has been posted on my FB page since it was published.

WayAheadofWalt

Jesus Betterman

In the Berkeley School system of the late 1950's and early Sixies, Manifest Destiny was taught with no apologies, and probably as a good thing. Died out after 50 years? By then they had the whole place, East Coast to West Coast.

Jesus Betterman

Since the image is still up on my flickr page, it seems obvious that the censorship had to have occurred at the typepad level. Here is the link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/8120319104/in/photostream

Jesus Betterman

I think you must have deleted the wrong post, George. I deleted my first post at flickr, and so I guess that is the source of the problem with the link.

Jesus Betterman

As I said before, way ahead of you Walt. This has been up on my FB page since it was published several days ago,

GirlwithaBook

George Rebane

PaulE 1236pm – “Historically we hardly have practiced what we are now preaching about militant Islam.” Couldn’t decipher that one, but I’ll try to respond to the rest of your comment.

1. All empires, nations, tribes, clans, … through recorded history have practiced the conquest of territory they consider to be in their narrow self-interest. This practice continues to this day. The United States has been no exception to this rule chiseled in stone.
2. Indians (the aborigines who preceded the European conquest of the western hemisphere) were also a bloody lot who were in constant war and conquest with their neighbors. In fact, they practiced their martial arts to a level that kept most of them in the Stone Age when the whites arrived. To speak of, say, the Oglala Sioux, owning and being sovereign over a piece of North America in perpetuity is being beyond silly and below reasoned debate. Lands always traded ownership as the fortunes of various tribes and ‘nations’ waxed and waned.
3. When the Europeans came, they did what comes naturally to human societies that are strong and growing - they conquer, and expand their populations and culture at the cost to other populations and cultures. Pagans did it, Christians did it in their turn, the communist secular humanists did it and are still doing it, and Islam has been doing it ever since they solidified their hold on Medina. In the latter case, their scripture calls for the ultimate establishment of a worldwide socio-political theocracy (the Caliphate).
4. For the most part (with notable exceptions), such conquests have advanced the progress of Man along most every dimension one considers. As a child, student, and defender of Western civilization I and mine maintain that our civilization has given, perhaps, the greatest gifts to Man. And through its continuing strength has maintained a world order that has allowed those gifts to multiply among those who have adopted our core tenets of a well-regulated social order.
5. No doubt, the Chinese communists and global Islamists have similar views about their respective histories and see an order beneficial to Man resulting their dominance and integration of lands and peoples which they have yet to conquer.
6. As a westerner and an American, I want ‘my system’ to endure and thrive for the sake of my children and for the sake of mankind. I believe we will have the shortest route to the stars (overarching utility for humans on Earth) through the social orders that are our heritage.
7. Given 4 and 6, I understand why I am an enemy of theocracy and collectivism, and why those who know my origin, loyalties, and beliefs would consider me their enemy. We are all correct within our respective frameworks.
8. Attempting to right the ‘wrongs’ of historical conquests through the peaceful application of some arbitrary standard of social justice is gross stupidity that will dooms those so persuaded. No great nation has attempted and survived the exercise.
9. America has greater problems to overcome than flaggelate our public corpus over past sins, imagined or committed. Opposing Islam and China top the list, and requires a people who are much smarter and more motivated than we are today.

George Rebane

JesusB 247pm - haven't deleted any comments since GregG's the other day that threatened to start another of your one-on-one exchanges.

Gregory

George, that one DIDN'T involve Keachie at all. It was a rational and deserved well slap at Ryan Mount for his non-apology apology.

Shame on you for deleting something without reading it well enough to have a clue.

George Rebane

Gregory 506pm - You're right Greg, I'm not putting your exchanges high enough on my 'must recall' list - shame on me. For the record, this is what you said to RyanM.

"Ryan, you felt empowered to drag me into your imitation Comedy Central schtick... just what was the thought process that thought you could do as well as some comedian you can't remember the name of? I hadn't even read the thread yet, let alone contributed. A Freudian would have a field day with you right now. Go away, grow up, and come back when you have a clue what to apologize for."

Walt

I just read the Ambassador Stevens will be coming home to Nevada Co.
It quite evident that "new management" at The Union is sub par. Since this is all they said from the headline. More info on that is sorely needed.
I hope everyone attends.

Paul Emery

So George you are pretty well condoning something that has been going since we fought over waterholes with clubs, that being the justification of conquering or destroying your neighbors or anyone else you chose because you have the ability to do so and the moral justification from your religion or culture that you are in the right. What a grim outlook. Man against man in mutually assured self destruction. "Might makes right" to use an old description.

Mario Guanero

Just remember Walt, when you honor our native son, that it is SOLELY the aggressive and arrogant foreign policy stance adopted by the neo-cons (early adopted by the likes of PNAC), and perpetuated in part by the ineffectiveness of the current administration to make the necessary corrections due largely to the obstructionist tactics adopted by the minority political party to suit only their agenda - irrespective of principle, sense and justice.
They are all culpable.

George Rebane

MarioG 854pm - please explain yourself.

PaulE 835pm - I don't think 'condoning' is the word I'd use. I have only described the age-old realities of human nature as expressed through the competitive behavior of societies. And none of it has been in "mutually assured self destruction", simply because the extant technologies didn't support that. That has changed.

China will not take us to the brink, but instead will play a very tough game of poker for supremacy or achieving par status. Islam is an end-timer religion. It is militant Islam that will be willing to sacrifice all, even if it calls for implementation of MAD, for they do it with the assurance of eternal blessings from Allah.

We in the west are now a secular humanist society, our Christianity assays out as low grade ore. In short, as a society we believe in nothing - everything is relative and negotiable. Looking around, it's hard to find a red line anywhere.

'Accept Allah or (we'll all) die!' Your move.

Paul Emery

George

Is this behavior some kind of atavism? Is there any hope that we, as the most advanced creatures on earth can somehow evolve beyond this. We certainly cannot use religion as a source of inspiration because we've been hacking ourselves up for thousands of years driven by spiritual inspirations that our way is the way. Is there any way for example that the Christian God as averaged out by the many versions of practice can justify the bombing of children in the pursuit of war? Does this Christian God or Jesus as his representative on earth value any one human being or nation more than another? This is serious stuff to think about as we go about deciding that to use our power to destroy those who possess what we desire, be it gold, land or strategic resources.

Jesus Betterman

When China figures out how to neutralize the subs, they'll waltz in, unless we do have bombs in orbit.

Gregory

George, from past manifestations, "Mario Guanero" is apparently just another Keachie sock.

I realize you have a hard time keeping up.

Gregory

Paul, most of the Rebanes of the world will be wanting to play whack-a-mole with radical Islamists as long as there's the wherewithal to do so.

Personally, I think ramping up North American fossil fuel production, all of it, depressing worldwide energy prices, will cause the funding of Islamofascism the most damage in the shortest time. Starve the beast the old fashioned way: Make it poor. They don't need it to run their own industrial base, they have little to no base to begin with; it's of value only to others.

Jesus Betterman

Not my sock Greg, have no idea who, showed up a while back at Juvi's.

George Rebane

PaulE 1031pm - For the record, yes the God(s?) of Christians, Jews, and Muslims do favor some humans more than others. It's throughout their scriptures. So what is your point about the age-old travail of man.

Greg 1122pm - in "Rebanes of the world" you seem to have introduced a new category of people based ideology, most likely incorrectly understood. Pray, who are they and what relation do they have to me?

Gregory

George (8:14), I think it was clear enough.

Overt swatting of militant Islamists by Western powers makes more militant Islamists. We need to extricate ourselves while starving their sources of funding so they can go back to their delicate historic balance of the Sunnis fighting the apostate Shia, and vice versa.

George Rebane

Gregory 120pm - I may be more dense than you credit me. While the 'starving their sources of funding' paradigm has much to recommend (have repeatedly done so myself), it is only a necessary but not a sufficient part of any working solution. With extremely limited funding, any sufficiently dedicated group can massively disrupt a tightly coupled complex system as is our global economy.

Years of studying the working paradigms of co-operation have shown that 'tit for tat' (q.v., also Fisher & Urey) is a most effective approach, and that is the only kind of "swatting" I favor.

Gregory

George, as long as we are there with a significant military presence, 'tit for tat' would include them trying to sponsor terrorist acts within the US and strike our embassies when they can.

Conservatives did their best to distort the way Ron Paul put it during the primaries; the bin Ladens of the world wouldn't have attacked the World Trade Center had we not been meddling in the Middle East. That doesn't transfer the blame for the WTC attacks to the US anymore than provocative attire of a rape victim means they were to blame for the rape, or that the rapist shouldn't be hunted down.

Mixing metaphors, the US needs to stop slinking down dark Arabian alleys wearing fishnet hosiery and spike heels.

Jesus Betterman

The overt swatting is feared because we don't always get our swats right. This could be amerliorated by my concept of the nanny drone with lots of cheap baby drones, extending the closeup view by a factor of several thousand. Predator drone locates target, nanny drone intercepts predator, and unleashed baby drones to establish for sure if the target is a target. This could even include microphones and speakers with which to have a conversation.

If the folks check out OK, then one last drone comes in, the Money drone, which dispenses $10 - $100, local currency, or gold. for each member visible. If anyone makes a hostile response to any drone, take that dude out, using another special kamikazi drone.

We can make friends, we have the technology, and Taliban once approached by such units would probably seriously have to think about giving up their lifestyle, in favor of cheap buyoffs from the SkyGods. It's probably far cheaper to hand out cash than it is to blow them up. Anybody priced those missiles lately?

George Rebane

Gregory 302pm - I've made my position clear on our Afghanistan misadventure, and promote the use of remotely controlled sensor and weapon systems to 'swat' in a tit-for-tat strategy. (BTW, if you want that to be part of the 'Rebanes of the world' attribution, be my guest.)

Just for clarity, the formal definition of a TFT strategy has three parts.
1. Never defect (strike) first.
2. When another defects, immediately counter-defect.
3. When the other stops defecting, then immediately also cease responding and return to #1.

Gregory

George, what you are describing is a perpetual commotion machine that takes money and turns it into more radical Islamists.

Tit for tat didn't work very well for the US and France in Indochina, or in India for not so great anymore Britain. It tends to piss people off.

We need to back off. Personally, when a failed state with artificial borders like Afghanistan manifests itself, I'd suggest the best alternative is to allow its neighbors to carve it up, take over the problems, and take the hits.

George Rebane

Gregory 400pm - Then according to your lights, after 9/11 we should have sat tight and enjoyed the ensuing eleven years of tranquility while the world of Islam worked things out among themselves, stopped colonizing Europe and America, and generally focused internally to modernize their cultures so as to emerge from the middle ages as a peer member of a peaceful world community. Interesting.

Paul Emery

How about the millions-billions spent in Afganistan and Columbia to subsidize alternative crops to Opium Poppies and Coca. Perhaps we should use that to subsidize our local pot growers to grow peaches or broccoli. If La Malfa can suck the government tit why not our local growers.

George Rebane

PaulE 1034pm - excellent question Paul. But I'm afraid those domestic monies are allocated to the DEA and other law enforcement agencies to keep up the cops and cannabis capers going full tilt.

Paul Emery

Here's more. Perhaps I should ask for a government subsidy when I don't have enough gigs playing guitar. Nice work if you can get it.

http://www.capitalpress.com/TH-subsidy-california-w-photos-infobox-072911

"From 1995 to 2010, an estimated $2.48 billion in rice subsidies have been given to more than 7,000 California recipients, according to a database of federal statistics compiled by the Environmental Working Group. That includes more than $505 million in direct payments and nearly $113.2 million in countercyclical payments, according to the database.

During times of low returns, the subsidy has helped rice farmers stay in business, said Live Oak grower Frank Rehermann, who handles Farm Bill issues for the California Rice Commission. "

Paul Emery

Whoops

This whole thing should be in the Eric Cantor at Doug LaMalfa fundraiser blat.

Gregory

George (25 October 2012) What a strange twisting of what I wrote; you're intentionally copying Keachie's style?

I think I already suggested we divvy up failed states to their neighbors, but 9/11 wouldn't have happened had we not gotten into Desert Shield/Storm, or, once there, actually finished the job and then gotten out. Why we're sending cannon fodder (IED fodder nowadays) of our own to keep the borders that the mad dogs and Englishmen drew a century ago is beyond my ken.

George Rebane

Gregory 1156pm - your 400pm criticized that TFT would not work (at least with radical Islam?), and would instead create a "perpetual commotion machine". If my 506pm was not a correct understanding, then what would your reaction have been to 9/11 that differed from TFT as defined in my 316pm?

Gregory

George, the problem with TFT is that your 'tit' becomes the 'tat' for the next 'tit' from the other guys, and your embrace of drones for the dirty work just increases the odds that tragic "collateral damage" will just put the other folks recruiting drive into overdrive.

There weren't that many radical Islamists in Indochina or in India (at least the current borders) that bred resistance to the French, the USA and the Brits, but as long as we're occupying majority Islamic countries, radical Islamists will be enraged. This won't get better with more 'tits'. We're not building Islamic democracies; in fact, it looks like, outside Turkey, it's sliding into a Wahabist abyss.

The initial reaction to 9/11 wasn't in error, George. It was a requirement. The problem is that 9/11 was after two decades of "TFT", the 10 years of "TFT" since then still has us there, and radical Islam is waxing, not waning.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -attr. A. Einstein

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