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« Ruminations - 1feb13 | Main | The Liberal Mind – Topical trumps Synoptic »

01 February 2013

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Michael Anderson

First of all George, thanks for the lovely baseball phrase "the high hard one" which is perfectly appropriate for the false spring we've been enjoying the past several weeks. In fact, Nevada City Little League held tryouts last Saturday and it felt like spring was going to be here any day now while I was there with my two boys. BTW, there's a second tryout for Junior, Majors, and Minors at Seven Hills School TOMORROW between the hours of 9 am and 1 pm. Be there or be square.

But those of us who've been in these mountains a while know that winter will be back with a vengeance, right around Valentine's Day as always, but your harbinger of spring was highly welcomed. In fact, your reference made me wonder about Estonians and baseball, and I found this book which taught me a few things about baseball and Europe: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0786437243

Anyway, back to illegal immigration. I pretty much agree with your analysis, and would go further in saying that until we end the stupid, costly, and deadly War on Drugs, the illegal immigration problem will continue as you describe.

I don't think a fence will do it either. Drones and space-based lasers, maybe. But that brings up a whole host of other extraconstitutional problems.

George Rebane

MichaelA 805pm - Baseball in Europe, what an amazing concept. I had no idea that the game was played by anyone save our GIs stationed at the various bases. I most certainly have never seen baseball played by Europeans, let alone Estonians. But then why not, it's a great game, and one at a pace that can readily be learned to play, and enjoyable to watch for all ages, again because of its pace. Are there any organized leagues on the continent?

Gerry Fedor

OK, George how do we now "remove" the 3-7 million people that are here w/o the correct paperwork and let alone these people, but their 20 million children that have resulted and are now legal?

It's time to stop kicking this can down the road and look at what these people (without the criminals, or the problematic people) have done in the past, and what they need to do to become a viable party of our society.

This includes getting these people on the taxation payrolls, getting them drivers licenses (and appropriate car insurance), getting their children into schools and educated (do we really need any more uneducated people in this country?), and lastly we need these people to get a single country (not 2 country) citizenship.

George Rebane

GerryF 750pm - I have no idea about who proposed "removing" anybody, let alone "3-7 million people". What hill are you defending here that has been attacked in the above post?

You recently claimed some technical education in a previous comment. Which to me indicates that you should be able to follow a thread of discourse; for example the one raised in my commentary. Please make a stronger case for your ability to do so.

JesusBetterman

George, unless the Right is willing to accept national biometric ID's for all "CITIZENS," there is no practical way to sort legal from illegal. Are you prepared for the rest of the Heinlein future that goes with such an ID system?

JesusBetterman

Baseball is the one true American religion, with the stats forming the Bible, and the 7th inning stretch being the "praise the Lord" and peanuts and hotdogs and coke being the Holy Sacraments, with mustard and ketchup as the Holy Condiments.

Ben Emery

George,
Where to start.

Once again you mislead the reader or listener on what the progressive view and why they hold such view, creating a straw man to pivot your position off of.

Then you briefly make a immigrant statement but quickly move it to Mexican illegal immigration. No mention of H1visa and the abuse of this process.

You then mentioned a one world government, we already live in a one world government. A government that controls policies of sovereign nations without being accountable to the citizens of the world through elections or court system. This government is the WTO, World Bank, IMF, and their subsidiary organizations.

The real question to this debate if we limit it to spanish speaking brown people from the south. Why are their so many people from the south immigrating to the US?

If you track when the huge influx came it is 3-5 years after the implementation of first NAFTA and then CAFTA. You and I are on the same page for what I am about to say, subsidized agriculture being forced into the economies of Mexico and Central America is bankrupting the corn industry in their nations. Farmers are losing their land they have had in their families for centuries and being forced to the cities. Now the cities are forced with cheap generally uneducated labor from rural regions manual labor wages drop. So what then happens is their is a huge number of low skilled workers that have families and need work. When the minimum wage is $5 a DAY in Mexico and I am not sure in Central American nations they move north to where there is plenty of manual labor work that will pay $40 a day, most of the time.

The reason people stay in the US is not because they like it, it is because of the risk they took to get here isn't worth doing multiple times. So the result is people stay for longer periods of time sending money back to their families. Basically what ends up happening those immigrant workers end up living in poverty in a different nation. They make $40 a day but it takes $41 a day to live.

All you right winger regulars please don't try and tell me how it works. I have worked side by side immigrant workers my entire life and have many friends from all over the planet because of it. My mom was an adult ESL teacher for years. Unless the threat of becoming a political prisoner most immigrants would rather return home to their family, friends, and culture

Here is the long term solution, which will need some wage/ policy adjustments once the population and system balances out.

1) End our Free Trade Agreements
2) Enforced existing laws on large industry employers Agriculture, Restaurant/ Hotel, Processing, ect...
3) E-verify. It takes a couple of minutes and usually those who know their information is being run through will not come back to the same employer
4) Create a migrant worker program allowing a legal but temporary easy passage between the agreed nations

Giant Sucking Sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls

I would like punch Clinton in the face for that fake plastered smile he has on.

Steve Enos

One thing for sure is I can fully understand why rural and rancher folks living on the southern border of the USA, next to Mexico want to have their "assault" style firearms and magazines that hold more than ten rounds. The same type of "scary looking" firearms some now want made illegal across the USA.

Talk about folks that live under and experience threats and danger. These folks need to and do protect themselves, their families, their property and neighbors from what is an on going war of crime, drug running, violence, trespassing and destruction in the southern border areas. I have worked with and know hard core U.S. Border Patrol Agents that work the southern border and it's a war zone.

Father's Day at Miwall this year is going to be massive. No need for Miwall to advertise their "open house" this year. I figure folks in RV's will start lining up a day or two in advance this year to get in.

Scott Obermuller

re Ben's 9:06 post. - "All you right winger regulars please don't try and tell me how it works." OK, Ben - tell us how it works. "The reason people stay in the US is not because they like it, it is because of the risk they took to get here isn't worth doing multiple times. So the result is people stay for longer periods of time sending money back to their families. Basically what ends up happening those immigrant workers end up living in poverty in a different nation. They make $40 a day but it takes $41 a day to live."
So they come here by breaking the law and stay so they can lose a dollar a day and send home what money? Typical left-wing nonsense. Seems like the rest of us have eyes and ears, Ben. A lot of them come here illegally and stay and send nothing home and have vehicles I can't afford and don't pay taxes as they get cash and then it's SS time and boo-hoo I'm too old to work and we end up paying them to stay.
What part of illegal is so hard to understand? The govt needs to announce that all employers will get to use the E-verify before they hire and report all of those that fail to pass to the govt. Anyone caught without proper paperwork will be deported. If they have children, the children have to go with them. That's what they do in Mexico and most all other countries on earth. If the flood of illegals came from Canada and voted R, we wouldn't even have this discussion and everyone knows it. People that break the law set themselves and their families up for trouble. It's their fault alone. If the 'innocent' children are unhappy, they should kick their parents in the ass for causing the trouble in the first place. If they have trouble getting by back home, that would be their problem that they brought on themselves.

Brad Croul

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Those "11 million" are effectively citizens (barring the legal technicalities). They live here, work here, raise families here.
They fit the description of all American immigrants.
What's the problem? That they did not fill out some form? That does not sound like an insurmountable problem.

George Rebane

JesusB 844am – I haven’t proposed any particulars on how the existing 11M would be legalized. It sounds like the Left has in mind imposing biometric IDs for everyone in America. I suppose that will eventually happen. You sound like you have a particular series of steps in mind, please share them with us.

My commentary is hopeful on immigration reform given that we can secure the border – given what we have to deal with, I think there are many good paths up the mountain of legalization. Without a secure border, no immigration reform will work, and America’s demise will be hastened.

BenE 906am – On the contrary Ben, I take the progressives’ objectives from their own published agendas. Please also see the citations in the Jasper book that I mention. Were they false, they would be easy to disprove.

Now the rest of your dissertation is most curious, because I can’t figure out whether it’s a critique of what you thought I said, or your own observations – i.e. what you hold to be true. Your view of what drives Latinos to America is one I haven’t heard, and given its veracity, I have to profess ignorance. But I am aware of the many ways Mexico’s government diminishes the fortunes of the country and its citizens, any of them would be enough to drive people to El Norte.

And in my business life I’ve had dealings with the Mexican government, IMF, and World Bank. It is clear from my experience that you and I have markedly different views of what is (will be) a ‘world government’. Most certainly one is not in place yet, but not for the lack of trying. On these pages I argue that UN’s Agenda21 is the most effective and ongoing blueprint for achieving world government.

It sounds like you and JesusB (DougK) agree on some reliable and facile means of identifying everyone who is in the country legally.

BTW, BradC's 1007am is the current recipe for social disaster, and prima facie evidence of the progressives' prescription for America that I have been describing.

Ben Emery

Scott,
If you would pull your head out of your arse for a second you would deduce that when their stays are extended they become one of the poor in the US. When they first get here they are willing to live 10 in a house, work three jobs, and penny pinch. The longer the stay the more they need a reliable transportation, personal relations get strained when so many non family members are cramped together in one living space, an illness or an accident forces them to the US health care system bankrupts them, and finally they get into the cycle of the old car syndrome- there is so much money and energy invested into this car we cannot afford to get a "new" one. It is my own fault to try and get you guys to look deeper than the surface on any issue.

So Scott those who get hired didn't break the law it was those who hired them that broke the law. I don't see any mention of that in your rant. As for children being born here, they are citizens.

Ben Emery

George,
NAFTA and Mexican Immigration
http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Portes/

Ben Emery

George,
Another link on NAFTA and Migration
http://www.iupui.edu/~anthkb/a104/mexico/naftaimmig.htm

Ben Emery

Here is where reality sits. The Obama administration has detained and deported more spanish speaking brown people than any other in US history.

Detention
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFXFlR5_Css

Deportation
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/immigration-deportation_n_2348090.html

JesusBetterman

You simply make it mandatory that all who wish to stay in the US of A check-in over a five year period, a hand over finger prints and iris scans and DNA and photos to the government, along with all your current documentation that proves who you are. From then on you don't even have to have an ID card, the officer who stops you for whatever reason does a pinkie scan, and if that doesn't come up with a you that is reasonable, off you go to jail, while they figure out who you really are, and then it's back over the appropriate fence, unless you start coming up with what should have been turned in during the five year period. For simplicities sake, anyone who looks over 80 is exempt, except for obvious meth heads. BTW, with facial recognition software on robotic cams, walking anywhere in public would be somewhat hazardous to your freedom, if you were not a regular resident of the area, and the area was not a tourist destination. Auto-sheriffing, I suppose you might call it.

Schools, btw, could use facial recognition software on a white list basis, to scan students and staff, and perhaps might have a pink list, for unruly parents, with appropriate alarm links.

Now this would clean out the country pronto, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those who want the cheap labor here, will fight it tooth and nail, and you can bet those folks are NOT the unions.

Brad Croul

George, I assume you are aware that border crossings have decreased due to our economic slump, and that unemployment is down in Mexico. Mexico is the 14th largest economy in the world. They must have jobs there.


The 11 million are already here so they obviously fit within our borders. The, " social disaster", as you put it, describes the current state of affairs, so has already happened.

That you equate Hispanic immigrants with a threat to conservative candidates at the ballot box, shows conservative values to be paranoia-based.

Walt

See the latest BS photo from the W.H.? ( "O" goes skeet shooting)
Find the (ha) official photo, and tell me the "few" errors that are
in it. Hint: Two smoke puffs, wrong color smoke, and just what the heck
is sticking out of the barrel of the shotgun?
One more staged propaganda photo op. Just like the last four years of his Presidency. LAME....

JesusBetterman

Well Walt, just where is this "official" photo located?

Ben Emery

The economic downturn has proven the point if there is no jobs a.k.a. illegal hiring people will not risk their lives and migrate.

Walt- You are absolutely obsessed about something all politicians do, create photo ops to make them seem more likeable to a specific group. Obama is no different. The fact that W Bush has a ranch but he is scared of horses is pretty funny story. Paul Ryan going to a soup kitchen after it is closed and pretends to wash dishes is another example.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2012/10/15/charity-president-unhappy-about-paul-ryan-soup-kitchen-photo-op/

Brad Croul

Walt, would you be satisfied with a picture of Obama blowing his nose - AKA shooting skeet?
You got to stop spending so much time on the Coast to Coast nighttime radio show.
Your paranoia is showing.

http://whitehouse.gov1.info/camp-david/index.html

Brad Croul

Check out the big dig link for more wild speculation opportunities,

http://whitehouse.gov1.info/tunnel/index.html

JesusBetterman

PULL! BLAM! Walt is pieces of clay.

Scott Obermuller

Oh Ben - you are so cute when you blow spittle. I know it's hard to argue with facts, but you do make a good stab at "looking beneath the surface". That's called changing the subject. They broke the law and then things go bad for them. Oh, but they sleep 20 to a bed and live on cockroaches. I don't care, Ben. They bring it all on themselves by their own volition. Bad decisions equal bad outcomes. Not my problem. You are welcome to attend to law breakers with your own time and money, but I help the unfortunate that are down despite their best efforts. The very first thing they decided to do when they came here was to piss on their own law abiding countrymen. And break our laws to boot. I realize the courts have ignored established law precedent and given the children born to illegals in this country citizenship. If they want, they can abandon them here or take them with them back to where ever. If this causes some problem, it's their problem.
You are wrong about the folks hiring illegals breaking the law if the illegals use phony SS numbers. They are not allowed to check before they hire and can report the problem after they find out the numbers are phoney. At that point, the govt does nothing to enforce the law and the companies are stuck with illegals on the payroll unless they risk being sued and fire the illegals.
I know you want to 'look beneath the surface' because you have no sane argument to the facts on the surface.
Again - if these were Canadian right wing hordes pouring out of our neighbor to the north, we wouldn't even have this conversation. It's all about building up the left wing dependency class. Immigrants are welcome - law breakers are not.

Walt

What? None of the LIB sites have the photo?
Try Drudge.... ( No wonder you can't keep up with current events)

Sorry I forget the timeline, but soon, "the White guy" will become
the minority in this state. But somehow that "minority status" won't apply
to us. We won't get the special privileges granted to "recognised" minorities.

Gerry Fedor

Here's what Walt calls his "proof"

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/01/fake-photo-of-president-obama-skeet-shooting/#axzz2JnXZqkVV

LOL!!!!!!

No more Koo Koo for Cocoa Puffs for you as it's pretty apparent that you must also believe that the Telle-tubbies are real too!

n

Brad, concerning immigration, consider this wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asabiyyah

Gerry Fedor

George,

I'd like to hear your ideas as to how we might resolve this problem.

You might have a bit more "insight" into this issue than others here (as you've been in the immigration wagon before) and I'd like to find out exactly what steps you feel we need to do to resolve this issue?

Thanks!

George Rebane

GerryF 847pm - Thanks for asking, and that's worthy of an addendum to this post. But please recall my strong thoughts on what is 'immigration' and how that term continues to be egregiously misused in today's report. Some years back, I did a lengthier piece on this.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2007/12/when-you-own-th.html

And I gave a detailed taxonomy of the entire field that would clarify the extent of the problem and pursuit of a solution.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/05/the-porous-borders-and-amnesty-act.html

And if you recall some of my posts in RR's 'My Story' category, you'll see that the "immigration wagon" that I rode into America is quite different from arrival mode and the problems faced by illegal aliens, specifically those who are Mexicans.

You see Estonians came here legally after first being examined in post-war camps in Europe under high magnification to demonstrate our political, health, and professional pedigrees. We were allowed in only after Congress determined that we served the national interest. Arriving here, almost all of us became 'super patriots' and '(over)zealous Americans' as we raised our hands to take the oath of citizenship. (I humbly offer myself as Exhibit A.) We don't wave Estonian flags on American holidays, nor demand to retrieve a piece of this land as our ethnic fief - we were assimilated. And while almost all of us have become well educated in America, we don't populate the nation's police blotters or prisons.

Several other immigrant populations can make the same claims. I bring this up, because whatever attitudes I hold on America's immigration policies are shaped by my experience after that early morning passing under Lady Liberty's torch so long ago.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/05/sixty-years-ago-today-4-may-1949.html

JesusBetterman

I see that the complete biomterics of every citizen under 80 is being ignored. Why? How else are you going to do the job, on an on-going basis? As long as people are coming in under legal visas and staying on beyond their expiration dates, you could build fences high enough to interfere with global weather patterns and you still would have the "problem" Getting all the data would possibly be a deterrent to crime, no?

One cool thing about illegals it that many of them, I suspect, come from the upper range of the IQ scale, to make it here, except, of course those who were given a free ride into the country by corporate agri-business, who are probably right on the norms. You find them in the Union-buster cluster camps in the Central Valley, and pulling down school tests scores, due to lack of interest in learning English, despite the most excellent efforts of union teachers, who go to the trouble of learning Spanish to help them make the transition.

George Rebane

JesusB 847am - who's ignoring biometrics? I think that citizenship will ultimately be confirmed by biometric ID. Don't know when Congress will require that.

And your thoughts on a secure border are beyond innumerate. We don't need '100% secure' to solve our illegal immigrant problem - just reduce the illegal entrants to a trickle. The last percentage point in any system's performance (here border security) is always hard to achieve and very expensive. Only idiots preach it, and only the insane attempt to achieve it before fielding a less-than-perfect system.

JesusBetterman

OK, how many illegals are overstaying VISA holders? I've heard as much as 40%
You'd at least make a step in the right direction by getting full biometrics of all inbound VISA folks. I suppose that might discourage tourism, as those who have committed crimes in their home country;s mine fear (and with good reason) data sharing.

JesusBetterman

But then again, an inbound computer scientist who knew full well that his visa was not going to be an easy way in for permanent residence, just might, just maybe, just might DEMAND MORE MONEY, and that would not be acceptable to computer companies trying to ace US of A programmers into accepting lower salaries or no work altogether. You can bet Apple, MS, Intel, and HP will nix nix that concept.

George Rebane

JesusB 955am - I tried to motivate myself to reply, but your misunderstanding of America's technical labor market is too great for me to make the attempt. Perhaps a more patient soul should take a crack at it.

Gregory

George, what's the point? Keachie's screeds are no more tied to reality than are L. Ron Hubbard's scriptures. Straight from his imagination to your blog.

He may be hiding in here somewhere, but if not, the news from Leicester brings it to mind anyway...

[Hospital for Overacting by Python(Monty)]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbS2WJdav6c

[news on the discovery of Richard III in a parking lot]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882

Gerry Fedor

Sorry George as I've never seen your previous postings as I'm a "newbie" in these parts, but if you might put together a list of bullet points as to your idea as to solutions to solve this problem I'd appreciate it.

I'd like to know your ideas on just how we should handle the several million people who are here illegally, and how we might solve this problem from being a continual draw on our country?

Thank you very much and I await your views.....

George Rebane

GerryF 852pm - Thank you again for the reminder, and I will indeed do what you ask since I'm always eager to put a stake in the ground about my own beliefs, and always enjoy their reception and critique by RR's readership.

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