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23 September 2013

Comments

rlcrabb

Those two Clarke novels were some my favorites as well. Although I don't remember all the details of those stories, I do recall that the cosmic super-consciousness used a genetically inferior race to carry out their wishes. I had to laugh when the "Overlords" finally exposed themselves to humanity, and the notion that their physical forms were foreseen as an echo back during the garden of Eden days.
It seems that we are headed in the same direction that Clarke envisioned, except that we don't need an extraterrestrial entity to accomplish it. We will willingly connect ourselves to the collective through implants, or end up alone and cut off. As for living forever, would you really want to?

Ryan Mount

Like everything else, I just want to know how much this is going to cost me. For the life of me, I can't get anyone to tell me anything of substance.

For example: if I live forever (or longer), does that mean I'm on the hook for more alimony? (my guess is yes)

Signed,
Pragmatic GenXer.

George Rebane

RyanM 725pm - One would expect that a special dispensation would be made for obligations such as alimony. Condemning your ex to live forever on the pittance you pay her would indeed be a cruel fate ;-)

Michael Anderson

Ryan,
The answer is no. Your ex-wife, if she started to take the forever pill, would most likely be required to give up her alimony for 1 of 2 reasons: 1) her access to the pill would be conditional upon her entering the workforce to the extent that she "made her nut," or, 2) the Singularity would overtake your seemingly-forever alimony responsibility and machines would take over the function of keeping her sustained.

George,
Fascinating subject, thanks for bringing it up. I am all for this technology being pursued. One beneficial side-effect would be that after living for several hundred years, people would no longer spend 80%-98% of the their total outlay of medical expenditures in the final year or so of life, trying to postpone the inevitable. This is truly where an inordinate amount of money is wasted presently, and one of the main reasons why we have shot up to 16% of GDP for health care costs.

George Rebane

MichaelA 829pm - Agreed. Than again, how should the choice be made to spend that personally earned or contracted for wealth?

ps. I feel pretty certain that the medical costs have been shooting up for extra-medical reasons. Maybe if we can reduce those first, and then see how it goes, before we do what Obamacare is really doing to healthcare costs. We may be yearning to go back to the good old days of 16%.

Michael Anderson

George: "Then again, how should the choice be made to spend that personally earned or contracted for wealth?" Well, by the person who made that money, of course.

I'm talking about the folks, public employees who retire for example and live another 30 years, who at the end peg the health care fun meter to 11 and try to eke out another 6 months for hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions), most of that time spent in the hospital.
Those folks are taking out way more than they put in.

Gregory

If people were spending their children's and grandchildren's inheritance they wouldn't spend hock the family farm to live an extra couple of months or less, possibly in pain, spending the cost of a university education to try to delay the inevitable.

Doctors tend to not choose heroic measures when they see their own final illness; the rest of us would do well to do the same.

Bill Tozer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vrPY15CYqc

George Rebane

MichaelA 1000pm - Well, yes. But your example of the retired public employees raises a more insidious question. They, collectively through their unions, strong-armed the taxpaying private sector to gain these time-delayed concessions with the help of the vote-buying sleazebag and/or double dummy politicians. The latter are long gone when the piper must be paid. (This should cause us to always look askance at how our current politicians are incrementally perpetuating evil.)

Ryan Mount

Thanks for the Family Court advice. I've written and filed away a motion in case I get to live longer.

Now this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbell/2013/01/10/why-5-of-patients-create-50-of-health-care-costs/

This is a 5/50 rule for those familiar with the old worn out 80/20 idea.

"A lot of the money being spent is not only not helping, it is making that patient endure more bad experiences on a daily basis. The patient’s quality of life is being sacrificed by increasing the cost of death."

So...

1) Do we just want the market to sort out who gets to live a few months longer? That is, if you have the cash to burn, you can survive another 6 months, else you croak.

2) Or should we have some oversight like a "Death panel" especially when it comes to publicly funded end of life care?

3) Some combination of #1 and #2?

Michael Anderson

For those who can pay, the market will work fine.

Gregory is right, doctors don't throw Hail Mary passes when it comes to their own end-of-life time, and anything they can do to educate the dying that prolonging the inevitable is in no one's interest, including the person who is dying, in a whole lot of ways.

I have witnessed more than one situation where a doctor denied intervention in a Stage 4 situation, only to relent when the patient applied a moderate amount of pressure. Things went south and ended up costing the insurance company many times more than what would have been incurred by bringing in Hospice care instead.

George, my understanding of PPACA is that it addresses some of these tough end-of-life decisions, to the betterment of the bottom line. And no, not through non-existent "Death Panels."

George Rebane

MichaelA 1100am - As reported here, Obamacare does indeed institute a so-called Death Panel (aka Independent Payment Advisory Board - IPAB) of seventeen professionals who will also make policy on what kind of care will be covered "to the betterment of the bottom line" during your last days. The loyal leftwing chorus remains as the only stalwarts who still deny the IPAB's function, and keep singing the 'Everything will be Rosy with Obamacare' anthem. Even some Democrats are starting to look askance at Big Brother managing your "tough end-of-life decisions".
http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/316045-obamacare-cost-cutting-board-faces-growing-opposition-from-democrats
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/07/the-pelosi-principle-validated.html

Todd Juvinall

The use of language and its manipulation by the left is a wonder to behold. Death panels changed to Advisory Boards. Garbage men changed to sanitary engineers. Homosexuals hijack the word gay. Yep those smarty pants worn by the libs.

Ryan Mount

Whoops. Congress (somebody) better get a crackin on this PPACA "glitch."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/23/aca-family-glitch-issues/2804017/

Abstract:

"Congress defined "affordable" as 9.5% or less of an employee's household income, mostly to make sure people did not leave their workplace plans for subsidized coverage through the exchanges. But the "error" was that it only applies to the employee — and not his or her family. So, if an employer offers a woman affordable insurance, but doesn't provide it for her family, they cannot get subsidized help through the state health exchanges."

Gregory

George is correct, the death panels exist but under a more marketable name and function.

Regarding the latest glitch, Reid and Obama need to work with the Republican lawmakers with whom they worked out compromises when the so-called Affordable Care Act was being drafted. The problem is, of course, that even Captain Hook could count those on the fingers of his left hand.

Gregory

Now, when my first wife was dying after a stage 4 cancer diagnosis, she wanted all the treatment she could get, letting up only when there was no other choice, after her ovarian cancer took up residence in her liver, reducing its function to a point at which her oncologist could no longer prescribe any chemotherapy agent at a therapeutic dose. Time to die was about a month later.

She had distinct and not unrealistic goals... outlive her parents and see our son graduate from high school, but came up short. Only once did we have to consider using our own money, when the doc was considering the use of a breast cancer drug, Herceptin, that was experimental for ovarian cancer. My wife cried when I told the doctor I'd exercise stock options to cover it if the test for applicability was good but the insurance didn't cover it. Unfortunately, she wasn't a candidate for it... it would attack her heart as vigorously as it would attack her tumors. A damn shame, as if her cancer had an overexpression of the protein Herceptin grabs onto she might still be alive and taking the stuff.

The problem is that the rabble were sold on Obamacare as it being the same great care the rich folk in Congress get that had been unfairly denied to them. Everyone wins, everyone gets all the care a doctor thinks would help without worry about the cost. Make an appointment with the best doctor in your area, get right in, and while you're in the waiting room, the Easter Bunny will give you a chocolate egg.

Care will always be rationed, either by wait, price born by the consumer or... being unavailable at any price for someone your age with those conditions. Sorry.

Paul Emery

Of course George those who subscribe to being social Darwinist, and there are many on this blog, don't need to worry about death panels. Survival of the fittest or better yet the richest. The rest are just compost. When there is no options for adequate health care people just die or live miserably.

Gregory

"The rest are just compost. When there is no options for adequate health care people just die or live miserably."

Paul, there you go again. If you hung them upside down for a nice Kosher slaughtering, you couldn't drain enough life's blood from the rich to give everyone in the US unlimited healthcare or stop the grim reaper for most who present with stage 4 cancer.

Paul Emery


Gregory

Nobody's asking for unlimited healthcare. My friends that do not have the insurance or financial resources have undiagnosed medical problems that will cause them to die earlier than those with those resources. No doubt, it's social Darwinism. I assume that whats you subscribe to.

Gregory

Here are a number of "Social Darwinists" and their views. No, I have never been enamored with any of their writings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism#Social_Darwinists

Paul, you need to find a black or whiteboard and write
"Utopia is not an option"
100 times. Your need to tag a pejorative term like that to people who aren't upset that the rich (which I am not) get more health care choices without a wait than the poor is apparently one of your deeper flaws.

George Rebane

Ending what the Left calls 'social Darwinism' is one of their most compelling messages to the great unwashed. The substituted alternative is 'social justice' from panels of elites who will determine what we eat, where we live, how we travel, the extent of our healthcare, what we are taught, and how we may entertain ourselves. No more Darwinism, social or otherwise. The great egalitarian transformation will then do to the development of Man what the asteroid did some 60M years ago to the giant reptiles.

Paul Emery

George what is the extent of healthcare for one of my dear friends who may have a brain tumor but cannot even be diagnosed unless she is willing to drain her meager bank account and cash out her retirement investment. You offer no alternative. There are many prudent health care models in existence but all you have to offer is fear and an incredibly archaic and absolutely unsubstantiated theory of the future.

Gregory

You only know how to use extreme examples. No one is asking for utopia. That's your way of ignoring the reality that human dignity and freedom is dependent on a reasonable level of healthcare.

Paul Emery

Also George and Gregory would you share with us the type of health insurance you have and where it came from?

George Rebane

PaulE 925pm - Has it ever occurred to you that certain people, say like your friend, with diagnosed brain tumors may not qualify for therapeutic treatment under Obamacare in the out years? To reduce the already projected runaway costs, the IPAB may authorize only palliative care for such cases. And only the Darwinistic rich will be able to obtain therapy, either here through a rump private medical sector or in a foreign land.

Paul Emery

George

I don't support Obamacare so don't hang that pork chop around my neck. This person is not in the "out years" but in her early 50's and lives in incredible fear. Her problem may be a simple one or it could be very serious. The point is she can't afford to even have a diagnosis unless she is willing to be destitute. She is currently unemployed mainly because she cannot work due to her condition. Yes, the wealthy have options not available to the poor or unemployed. Is that some kind of revelation? It would drain her bank account and leave her homeless to obtain any kind of medical relief.

Paul Emery

Also, as you know, the wife of one of our colleagues on this blog was able to obtain insurance to have a heart operation which likely saved her life because of Obamacare so its not all bad. Are you willing to say to this couple that they are contributors to "The great egalitarian transformation that will do to the development of Man what the asteroid did some 60M years ago to the giant reptiles".

Bill Tozer

Very interesting topic, gentlemen. At least no one on this current thread has slammed us Social Darwinists for decrying death panels as was the case 18 months ago. Not yet. Easy to predict death panels. As day follows night, rationing will result. Cut the dying first, then???? Maybe those with inoperable brain tumors or those in need of experimental treatments? Or maybe brain tumor operations will be treated like organ transplants. Pick a number, wait in line, and don't call us, we will call you.

On the more general topic of eternal life on Earth (no, I ain't taking about government bureaucracy), read a study that predicts for the first time the average life span here in the good ole USofA might actually decrease in 30 years. Seems this obesity epidemic is getting way out of control and thus diabetes and heart disease and other ailments associated with hauling around an extra barrel of lard will cause the decrease in lifespan. If you are going to play, you are going to pay. Darn. Maybe that control freak Bloomberg was right. Well, at least I don't drink sodie pops (gives me headaches) and I was a breast fed baby. 2 out of 5 ain't bad.

Dr. Rebane, if one pill makes me live for infinity and beyond, what will 4 pills do for me? Those of us with compulsive addictive personalities would like to find out, ASAP. Like 5 minutes ago :)

Gregory

George, Paul's friend doesn't know if they have a brain tumor or not.

Paul, you are the one demanding Utopia. You write "You only know how to use extreme examples" following once again an extreme example... your 1 in a million two boys that need a very specialized drug to combat a genetic illness, and now someone who has no insurance, is worried they might have a brain tumor and needs some expensive diagnostics they can only afford if they drain their retirement savings.

The real shame is that if your friend had insurance, the actual allowed cost to the insurance company is probably a small fraction of what they are quoted as an uninsured individual, one of the unintended side effects of Medicare and Medicaid payments being lower than the cost of providing the service, so everyone else gets charged much more in the hope of making it up. These things are all artifacts of mostly Democrats in Congress leaving health care as an untaxed "fringe" benefit since the 1940's that hasn't been "fringe" for 50 years, and not affecting needed tort reform because those attorneys are Democratic stalwarts.

As far as the insurance I have, it's a far cry from the gold plated insurance I had while working for Cisco, or the gold plated plans the United Auto Workers have now while working for Government Motors, or the plans Congress wants to keep and not have to go on the Obamacare cart. It's a run of the mill employee benefit that is a mix of HMO and PPO features; one has to be very careful not to trigger large out of network fees and we have had to make difficult personal choices in order to keep that coverage.

Sorry, George doesn't sound like a "Social Darwinist" to me; perhaps if you can find the writing of a self described Social Darwinist that fits anyone here you could get some traction.

Let go of your envy of those wealthier than your friends; what we have had isn't a free market solution, it's a Frankenstein monster created mostly by Democrats... they were controlling Congress from the time I was filling diapers until the time Gingrich was elected Speaker. Just making healthcare taxable like any other pay 50 years ago would have solved many of our healthcare problems because insurers would be working for their ultimate customers rather than their customer's employers.

Bill Tozer

"In Obamacare I trust." Hmmm, lets see who is exempt from the Affordable Care Act And no, not the big boys. Just basically the uninsured ones.

A) illegal aliens. Exempt and no do qualify. Whatz to stop them from using ER as their first choice? Kinda undermines the argument of poor people without insurance showing up at the ER and driving medical costs up, up, and away.

B) Those who make so little they are not required to file a Federal Tax return. Exempt. Silly me, I thought those who were the most needy, those who walk around poor and with no insurance were THE reason to support Obamacare.

C) On a case by case basis, those that are given "an individual hardship exception", i.e. those that cannot afford anything for various reasons, even with subsidies. Can't get blood out of turnip. Again, what is keeping them from showing up at the ER?

D) Since one day of Obamacare coverage is counted as a month, those that play the game and have coverage for 5 months and one day only. They are not subject to penalties by the IRS and are counted by the bean counters as having "full time" coverage...Full time is Obama speak for 6 months. In reality, they can skate almost 7 months without being required to have insurance.

E) Like Medicare or private employer sponsored insurance, those that do not sign up during open enrollment in 2015 are left out in the cold. You snooze, you lose. Try again next open enrollment period.

fish

......Nobody's asking for unlimited healthcare.


And that's just what you're going to get with FedCare. The skills and wait times of a third world mud hut hospital coupled with the loving, caring nature of the IRS.

Enjoy it Guitarzan!

fish

Dr. Rebane, if one pill makes me live for infinity and beyond, what will 4 pills do for me?

Interesting question Bill....might I suggest consulting Ms McFuzz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Gertrude_McFuzz

MikeL

How cruel of Paul to not help his friend go see a doctor, even though Dr. Emery has diagnosed her with a brain tumor. Paul has no problem asking everyone else to step up to the plate to pay for his friends doctor bills but I have not read here where Paul has contributed a dime of his own money.

Paul Emery

It is her concern that she may have a brain tumor not my diagnosis. Pretty silly assumption. The simple fact is she cannot afford to be diagnosed let alone treated which in this situation can cost thousands. Allowing someone to continue in this state is cruel and not in keeping with being a modern culture or nation.

Michael Anderson

1. Health care should have been decoupled from employment half a century ago, but wasn't because of corruption and our antiquated political system. Oh well, PPACA is going to finally take care of that. So the point is moot.

2. I agree with Paul: PPACA sucks and was a terrible way to go. But the status quo sucks even more, so PPACA it is. You can either gnash your teeth or work to fix the problems within its framework. Single payer would have been better.

3. Greg, Todd, and others blame the Democrats for our healthcare woes. Were they not legitimately elected? Blame the electorate: your lefty friends, people who live in cities; elections have consequences, and your side lost. You could blame the sky and the clouds for all the good it's going to do you.

4. I look forward to the end of all this mewling and bawling in a couple of years. Enjoy your coming irrelevancy!

George Rebane

re MichaelA's 913am - "Enjoy your coming irrelevancy!"

Our irrelevancy in the public forum has now been predicted for over five years (the record of that on RR is still crisp and indelible). And our voices have been ignored/mangled by the lamestream for much longer than that. Yet somehow there remain enough of us so that we must constantly be reminded how irrelevant we have become.

Re Obamacare, the overwhelming majority of Americans don't like it, along with major corporations, unions, and even Congress itself. The response of the hard left? smear on a lot more lipstick, and sooner or later they won't recognize the pig underneath.

Gregory

"Allowing someone to continue in this state is cruel and not in keeping with being a modern culture or nation."

Paul... so she has a preexisting condition that kept her from buying insurance? Or would rather save money for retirement and hope stiff medical bills don't come before medicare kicks in? What is her particular story regarding insurance, or lack of it? This is one doctor's opinion? Two? Did a doctor or two actually say she needed the very expensive diagnostics, or just mention them in passing?

Then there's hypochondria and while we'll stipulate this isn't the case here, there are many who overuse care while others do their best to shake off whatever is bothering them without going to a doctor even if they have great insurance or wads of cash. Personally, I prefer training my doctor to expect if I come in they need to take it seriously rather than "what is it this time?".

The concept of insurance isn't "someone with money who will pay my medical bills" but rather, I pay in something close to the expected cost of the benefit (plus a bit more) to a large pool so if I get hit with a large bill everyone else has also chipped in, and, if I'm lucky (in a perverse monetary sense) I'll not get sick and not get any benefits at all. Going without insurance is a bet that you won't need it. Like all bets, it's possible to lose.

"Allowing someone to continue in this state is cruel and not in keeping with being a modern culture or nation."

Sorry, I really have little information about what state she is actually in. Currently unemployed, can't work because of a condition, doesn't want to spend the last of her money to throw at a diagnosis. It could be as horrible and rare as a brain tumor that she truly can't afford to adequately diagnose or treat (if it is even treatable) or as commonplace as depression; both are tragic. We don't know, and Paul, I suspect you'll just keep tossing out worst case extreme examples as cases that any national solution will have to cover without hesitation because there is only one humane solution in your mind... a single payer with deep pockets that will pay for all the care you think your friends and acquaintances need.

Todd Juvinall

Watching Ted Cruz and others filibuster up until noon was wonderful. All the things being said were correct. The Obamacare disaster was created by subterfuge and when anything starts out like that it will not work. There are already 10 thousand pages of regulations on the first two hundred pages of the 3000 page law. But the democrats don't care. Harry Reid will figure out a way to defeat by Parliamentary tricks the defunding of the travesty to America and its Founders intent.

MichaelA, no whining from me or Greg about democrat control of the Senate. We have the House, the originator of all spending and a solid majority. I would say 2014 may be a watershed year for regaining the Senate and keeping Obama from socializing and fundamentally changing the country.

My experience in healthcare has been very good. Good care from doctors and SMNH. (all the docs are against Ocare)I buy my own insurance and pay my own bills. Pretty simple. That was because I created a business and made some money in order to pay the premiums. Isn't that America?

Regarding the Senate. It is 54 dems 46 R's. The House will be R's after 2014. The dems in red states are in jeopardy and we may see some interesting debate today.

You libs are always one direction, left, and refuse to compromise yet whine and complain when we on the right stay our course of conscience. Too bad. I just watched some Labour Party conference in Brighton, England and those libs in that country are espousing the same crap Obama and Reid and Pelosi are doing here. They will lose to in their upcoming elections. Germany just kept Merkel and her Party in charge and it seem there is a worldwide swing back to reality and away from your commie/soft attempts to take over.

Gregory

"Health care should have been decoupled from employment half a century ago, but wasn't because of corruption and our antiquated political system."

From late 1931 to early 1995, the Speaker of the House, where all tax legislation must originate, was a Democrat for all but 4 years ('47/8, '53/4). So tell us, why do you think Democrats aren't primarily to blame for the tax system we have, including employer based health care because it isn't taxed if it's a "fringe benefit"?

Gregory

"MichaelA, no whining from me or Greg about democrat control of the Senate. We have the House, the originator of all spending and a solid majority."

What you mean "We", kemosabe? I see Cruz more as an embarrassment for Republicans than anything else, but I suspect this is more about getting Senate Dems in competitive states on the record about Obamacare for next year's elections.

fish

1. Health care should have been decoupled from employment half a century ago, but wasn't because of corruption and our antiquated political system. Oh well, PPACA is going to finally take care of that. So the point is moot.

Well Michael has weighed in on the matter so I guess it's settled. Whew.

2. I agree with Paul: PPACA sucks and was a terrible way to go. But the status quo sucks even more, so PPACA it is. You can either gnash your teeth or work to fix the problems within its framework. Single payer would have been better.

The United States can't afford the single payer it has now (Medicare)! Oh Michael did you really think you were going to get all that "free" healthcare you've been promised? Silly you.

3. Greg, Todd, and others blame the Democrats for our healthcare woes. Were they not legitimately elected? Blame the electorate: your lefty friends, people who live in cities; elections have consequences, and your side lost. You could blame the sky and the clouds for all the good it's going to do you.

I do blame the electorate....daily....but at least they are reliably stupid. You can't really hold the electorate responsible any more than you could hold a herd of cattle responsible for the consequences of their decisions. This is where I differ from most on the board....I know democracy is a sham. Yeah I'm looking at you Frisch.

4. I look forward to the end of all this mewling and bawling in a couple of years. Enjoy your coming irrelevancy!

Irrelevancy?? Enjoy your coming insolvency.....and wait till you have to confront the holders of all those broken promises. Lemme know how it goes.

Todd Juvinall

I view Cruz as a maverick and it surprises me when those that claim no allegiance to either party or claim to mavericks themselves cannot see that in Cruz.

I suppose Cruz should just be a go along to get along guy just like the rest so complained about.

Gregory

I suspect Cruz is playing a game, playing the part of a maverick, with Presidential delusions.

I gather he didn't even talk about his plans with senior GOP senators before launching his filibuster against Republican legislation sent up from the House.

fish

I suspect Cruz is playing a game, playing the part of a maverick, with Presidential delusions.

Still anything that sends Harry Reid into an impotent rage is okay in my book.

Paul Emery

RE: Gregory 25 September 2013 at 09:47 AM

No Gregory All I'm asking for is some kind of healthcare system to at least put is in the league with other modern nations. Georges hysteria about healthcare leading to bayonets in the streets is laughingly ignorable and not an argument to be perused except within a very small group of 19th Century nostalgics. There are suffering people in this country that have treatable problems and its immoral in my view to to not make their care a highest priority, at least as high as blowing up children with drones in distant lands.

Todd Juvinall

Greg, Cruz campaigned in Texas on this very issue. He is doing what he said he would do. I could care less if he had Presidential aspirations, there are 99 other Senators that do too. Not every person in politics (well other than D's) is a scofflaw.

Look at the personal attacks Cruz etal have experienced from Reid and his minions. Hell, it is my experience when they start attacking you personally then you must be winning.

fish

Hey! Where's Krazy Doug Keachie been???


Wait...found him!

http://dachshundlove.blogspot.com/2013/09/dachtober-is-upon-us.html

But what is he doing with two of my dogs.....and those...err...socks?

George Rebane

PaulE 1122am - Paul, along with other stasists you think that unsustainable socialist programs don't beget other band-aid programs, increased taxes, increased regulations, etc. Unfortunately that is not the case as demonstrated by conditions in Greece, Spain, Italy, Belgium, and Ireland. As long as we create commons funded by other people's money, things tend to progress in only one direction. Look at the malaise that socialist Great Britain was in until the Iron Lady came along. And even she was able to pull the country back from economic abyss only so far. Now, led by its NHS and its already abandoned toothless military, the country is looking to increase taxes again. The country continues at an anemic 1.5-2.1% annual growth that promises paring back services in all sectors including healthcare. How can that be?

Paul Emery

George

Yes indeed, adjustments are made from time to time and guess what, those countries still exist and golly, the people seem to be living free and productive lives. Show me one, just one, country in the world that embraces your vision of health care and we'll have something to talk about based on comparison but until then it's the Theory of George vs the rest of the contemporary world. I have shown time and time again that national health care is more efficient, inclusive and has a higher approval factor than ours-Australia for example- and you seem to ignore that basic reality.

fish

I have shown time and time again that national health care is more efficient, inclusive and has a higher approval factor than ours-Australia for example- and you seem to ignore that basic reality.


Ooh I guess you missed all those reports about people left to die on gurneys in hallways while under the care of the NHS.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8668906/NHS-delays-operations-as-it-waits-for-patients-to-die-or-go-private.html

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jul/01/nhs-sos-davis-tallis-review

http://fairwhistleblower.ca/content/julie-bailey-enemy-people

Paul Emery

Sounds anecdotal to me Fish. That's a no no on this blog. It's easy to dig up stuff like that on the web. My data is based on direct experience and official reports. Check out Australia for percent of GDP, inclusiveness and satisfaction, which I've already done in an earlier entry and you'll see my information is verified.

George Rebane

PaulE 118pm - I think you're still having difficulty in discriminating between anecdotal and synoptic. The 103pm citations by fish are strictly the latter. For corroboration you can take a look at a government website that decries the current state of the NHS.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hunt-nhs-must-fundamentally-change-to-solve-ae-problems

'Fundamental change' in the NHS has been called for by British government leaders since Tony Blair. Sustainable systems don't behave like this.

And your vaunted citing of Australia's system is misplaced. Its costs have been rising at over 9% annually, far outstripping the tax increases with which the government is able to burden its citizens. Sustainable systems don't behave like that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291686/

Finally, your apparent definition of 'theory' needs a little burnishing. In science, theory is the name given to a coherent explanation of all the observables. Additionally, the power of a theory derives from its ability to predict the future. The 'Theory of George' (thanks for the misplaced credit) has been doing quite well for some considerable years now.

Your argument reminds me of a teenager assuring his dad that his fast driving habit is perfectly safe as witnessed by the fact that he has yet to kill or maim himself.

Paul Emery

What it boils down to George is that you can cite no examples of health care systems that work at all and can offer no alternatives based on living examples. I agree that basic greediness for life creates the call for unlimited services and new products created by companies that know they will be subsidized by the government. There has to be limits and tempered expectations in any universal system. That's tricky for sure but can be done and would at least cover my friend who would at least get diagnosed and treated and could possibly return to a productive life.

fish

Sounds anecdotal to me Fish. That's a no no on this blog. It's easy to dig up stuff like that on the web. My data is based on direct experience and official reports. Check out Australia for percent of GDP, inclusiveness and satisfaction, which I've already done in an earlier entry and you'll see my information is verified.

Well I'll leave it to the proprietor to tell me what's allowed or not on his blog.....but to your other point.... while not official, that is, blessed by the government, newspaper articles are often referenced as legitimate sources. I'd be willing to bet that at some point in the past where you were assuring us that all the ice was melting or that it was all the Tea Parties fault you probably linked to a newspaper article online.

That said, if you want to point me to your earlier research I'm ecstatic to review it.

"Check out Australia"....thanks for the remarkable specificity

George Rebane

PaulE 225pm - To argue that America, a premier destination for the world's destitute and aggrieved, has arrived at the 237 year mark without a working healthcare system boggles the mind. I cite America.

And just as all the other socialist countries dissatisfied with the state of their healthcare systems - witnessing their reform efforts - I have offered my own reforms that arguably are at least, if not more, socio-economically sensible than the ones being considered elsewhere.

fish

Fraud: Just One More Service ObamaCare Offers!


http://www.atr.org/irs-watchdog-million-missing-obamacare-slush-a7886

Paul Emery

George

We have self employed citizens who cannot buy health coverage at any cost losing their homes because of medical bankruptcy. That's an example of our system as it exists today. At least those citizens will have affordable insurance under Obamacare that they don't have today. Again I cite the example of our colleagues wife who was able to purchase insurance and have heart surgery likely saving her life. As bad as Obamacare is it has already helped many attain a healthy and yes, sustainable life, something we all deserve.

fish

As bad as Obamacare is it has already helped many attain a healthy and yes, sustainable life, something we all deserve.

Don't know Paul....sounds anecdotal to me....That's a.....

Gregory

Paul, have you as yet verified my claim to you that the WHO healthcare report that put the US behind Cuba did indeed have as it's highest weighted factor how much the system's financial underpinning resembled France's? And that the WHO report was written in (drum roll, please...) France?

Actual outcomes are pretty damned good in the US.

Paul, you want a system that will take care of your latest friend with a possible extreme problem, but we really have no clue what sort of choices she made that left her in the position of wanting care but not wanting to spend all her savings. You've told us she would have to spend all just for diagnostics; is that $1K, $10K, $20K? And how much (and when?) did the last insurance policy cost her?

Any system we have has to keep the commons from being overgrazed. How would that work in the perfect system for Paul & friends?

Gregory

"We have self employed citizens who cannot buy health coverage at any cost losing their homes because of medical bankruptcy. That's an example of our system as it exists today."

Yes, and the lack of a functioning individual market for health insurance is entirely due to the income tax code that grew employer (and union) based plans to the exclusion of all else. A Dem sacred cow, tax free benefits. Fixing that and a simple requirement that no risk pool be smaller than a zip code or two would solve those problems.

Next? Preexisting conditions?

If you had insurance when the condition was diagnosed, you must be allowed into your zip code's risk pool.

Anything else?

Paul Emery

Fish
GDP:

Australia % of GDP 9% -Ours is 17%

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

Accessibility:
Australia Universal coverage for all with options of additional private insurance
USA 40-50- million uninsured

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2013/September/17/census-numbers-uninsured-numbers-remain-nearly-unchanged.aspx
Satisfaction:
Australia is fifth in the world in satisfaction

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/11/us-healthcare-countries-idUSBRE95A0FJ20130611

Anything else I can help you with?

Paul Emery

Fish 3:07

Not anecdotal Fish but a fact. Would you like to meet someone whose life is likely to be increased because of access to insurance? You can talk to them face to face about how awful Obamacare is.

Also I sent some details on Australia GDP, accessibility and user satisfaction but it seems to have not been posted. I'll try again unless it appears.

Paul Emery

So Gregory 3:15), it looks like you're in favor of tax increases as a solution to health care anemia.

A simple statement like "if you had insurance...." (3:15 PM) has that big IF that nearly 50 million Americans don't have so what good is that statement?

Paul Emery

Gregory

One more thing

If I had an employee based insurance and had diabetes for example and I wanted to go i into business for myself, under your solution would there be insurance at a reasonable cost available to me?

George Rebane

PaulE 541pm - the "50 million Americans" don't have insurance number has grown markedly in the last two years from about 36M. The numbers are specious because only about 9M who want insurance don't have it, the rest choose not to. These are the ones now being forced to buy insurance under Obamacare.

I note that you didn't address any of the points in my 158pm.

Paul Emery

George 1:58

RE Australia's rising costs according to World Bank.org the percent of healthcare costs to gdp have only increased .2% in the four year period between 2008-2011 so whatever cost increase were incurred they did not effect the % of GDP.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

As far as the theory of George you say that "theory is the name given to a coherent explanation of all the observables". Fair enough but it sis safe to say that the individual liberties and quality of life in countries that have national health care programs, which is every modern country in the world. Show me the observables for example to support your contentions. Gee, folks in Europe seem to be pretty jolly and raise their families in secure and safe communities and indeed have far less crime problems and incarceration rates than we do. The "bayonets in the streets" as you like to characterize the future of all these countries seem to be pretty well concealed at this time. Countries like New Zealand, Switzerland and Norway for example seem to have stable and secure communities with governments that serve the needs of their community quite well.

As far as the problems of Britain they seem substantial but adjustments are being made because they have to. That doesn't mean they are going to dive into a free market healthcare regime anytime soon. We may agree more than you think about the endemic growth that government systems are inflicted with but the push and pull conflicts we see are actually a healthy thing and will continue into the future.

According to you ALL governments in the world that have national health care are going to go bust and lead to totalitarian monstrosities. That is a bit much for any reasonable person to believe and is not being displayed to any noticeable degree.

I'll close with what Ronald Reagan said "Show me the Beef"

Paul Emery

Sorry for the broken sentences. I meant to say " "Fair enough but its safe to say that the individual liberties and quality of life in countries that have national health care programs, which is every modern country in the world seem to b intact and not declining to any great degree"

Todd Juvinall

Funny how hard a liberal will tell us how important the "right to privacy" is under Roe v Wade or growing MJ without government interference and yet turn over all their body rights to "national healthcare". I am simply flabbergasted.

Gregory

Paul 554

I guess you weren't paying attention. A preexisting condition that was diagnosed when insured, or insured since, should not be held against you.

Insurance for the aging wouldn't be as cheap as under Obamacare because the young get screwed with higher than their expected cost premiums to subsidize the old. Once again, the old are draining the young of income.

Obamacare falls apart if the young figure it out and just pay the penalty tax.

ditecremote.livejournal.com

Hi there, every time i used to check website posts here in the early hours in the dawn, because i enjoy to learn more and more.

Michael Anderson

Toss wrote: "...and yet turn over all their body rights to 'national healthcare.'"

And what body rights might those be?

Todd Juvinall

All of the parts, except for you MichaelA, your noggin is not worth much. LOL!

Michael Anderson

There you go again, Todd. Waving that big fat hand of yours under the stall and not getting a response. It's depressing, I understand that.

Here's a great web site I found for you at the US Congressional resource center: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1891307/posts

Todd Juvinall

MA, My writing is over your head. Go to your room.

stevenfrisch

"Regarding the Senate. It is 54 dems 46 R's. The House will be R's after 2014. The dems in red states are in jeopardy and we may see some interesting debate today."

Another great prognostication from political expert Todd Juvinall, whose handicap of last years national elections was off by more than 7%.

Put that one in your little brain recesses and bring t back when Democrats retain control of the Senate.

Todd Juvinall

Sorry to inform ewe SteveF, but my recess are much larger than yours. And pray tell us how you say there are 54 dems when two are indies? Isn't that 52-46-2? Go to your room..

Paul Emery

Fish

Hopefully this will post


GDP:

Australia % of GDP 9% -Ours is 17%

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

Accessibility:
Australia Universal coverage for all with options of additional private insurance
USA 40-50- million uninsured

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2013/September/17/census-numbers-uninsured-numbers-remain-nearly-unchanged.aspx
Satisfaction:
Australia is fifth in the world in satisfaction

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/11/us-healthcare-countries-idUSBRE95A0FJ20130611

Anything else I can help you with?

Posted by: Paul Emery | 25 September 2013 at 03:18 PM

fish

Anything else I can help you with?

This is fine for starters.

fish

As bad as Obamacare is it has already helped many... (again...the hereditary inability for members of the Emery clan to perceive irony.) attain a healthy and yes, sustainable life, something we all deserve.

Hey...an anecdote followed by this statement...

Not anecdotal Fish but a fact. Hmmm...will have to withold judgement on this questionable assertion.

Would you like to meet someone whose life is likely to be increased because of access to insurance? You can talk to them face to face about how awful Obamacare is.

I might. Probably would be better thought to wait for a few years to see how things play out on a larger scale.


You're an odd cat Paul.

Todd Juvinall

Fish, PaulE uses anecdotes as facts all the time. Not believable most of the time.

fish

From your Reuters link:

While the results show how patients rate their country's healthcare system, he added, they do not reflect how one nation's system compares against another.

South Korea scored the highest marks in all categories.

Residents of Spain, which ranked at the bottom of the list, gave poor scores on access to diagnostic tests, hospitals, drugs and specialists and patient experiences in all categories.

Those in France also gave low grades for most healthcare services, except for diagnostic tests and for the speed with which they could access medical care.

Poland's scores suggested worsening healthcare in the areas of hospital and specialist access, while Hungarian patients were most dissatisfied with availability of specialists and a hospital, and speed of services.

Sweden, which has universal healthcare coverage and among the world's longest life expectancies, was No. 11 overall and received low marks for access to specialists, diagnostic tests and hospital, and coordinated services.

(First item, not surprising at all. Koreans....the Irish of Asia...too hard nosed to complain like we decadent westerners)

So in the established "socialized" European and Nordic countries it appears to be a mixed bag at best. The complaints that they have are those that Obamacare opponents think will be the problems with our new system.

Obamacare opponents are wrong how again? It looks like we are going to take a moderately dysfunctional systems and graft a lot more government onto it. What could possibly go wrong!?!?

Crap Paul, when all is said and done you'll be lucky if this thing doesn't consume 25% of GDP.

Interesting...The system that you laud in Australia places 5th on the satisfaction scale....but our pliers and leaches US healthcare system still rates 6th.

Still looking at the World Bank numbers.

Paul Emery

Fish

Remember, the task I undertook was to look at Australia's system in three areas. efficiency, accessibility and satisfaction and they score higher than us in all categories with satisfaction being close to the US. There is no doubt in efficiency and accessibility they scorch us. This is a casual glance on my part so take it for what it's worth. It certainty enhances the conversation. thanks for checking it out.

Michael Anderson

Paul, thank you for giving us a bit of a picture of countries with non-criminal governments, where the people are relatively happy and things run relatively smoothly.

And then we have our country, one of the most pitiful and f-ed up places on the planet. And getting worse by the day, due to people who refuse to lose. Willing to destroy the village in order to save it. Madness.

If I was president, a whole bunch of legislators in Washington D.C. would be highly puckered right now due to some impending Executive Orders I'd be unleashing to "help" them do their jobs. Guess which ones?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/26/opinion/collins-meet-dilly-and-dither.html?hp&_r=0

George Rebane

MichaelA 220pm - Breaking out his true colors, he speaks like the collectivist autocrat he is. Thank you.

(For the interested reader who wants to check the record - there is no one of the conservative, libertarian, or conservetarian ilk on these pages who would dream of suggesting that impending Executive Orders be unleashed to subvert the legislative functions of Congress. Yet the same leftists call us fascists. What gives rise to this massive disconnect?)
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/03/-the-liberal-mind-yes-virginia-we-really-are-different.html

fish

This is a casual glance on my part so take it for what it's worth. It certainty enhances the conversation. thanks for checking it out.

As I said I'm still reviewing the numbers at the link you provided...if I remain real enthusiastic I may check additional sources. I'll get back to you.

fish

And then we have our country, one of the most pitiful and f-ed up places on the planet. And getting worse by the day, due to people who refuse to lose. Willing to destroy the village in order to save it. Madness.

Presumably Michael, as a man with talents you could emigrate to a locale more to your liking. Give it some thought.

fish

If I was president, a whole bunch of legislators in Washington D.C. would be highly puckered right now due to some impending Executive Orders I'd be unleashing to "help" them do their jobs. Guess which ones?

Scratch a lefty...find a closet authoritarian! Well done Michael!

fish

President Hollow Chocolate Bunny has lost the SEIU....Oh noes!


http://washingtonexaminer.com/seiu-unionists-strike-over-obamacare-related-cuts/article/2536458

Paul Emery

"Love it or leave it" right Fish? My country right or wrong. Invade sovereign nations, drone bomb civilians in their homeland.........

Gregory

"Yet the same leftists call us fascists. What gives rise to this massive disconnect?"

That was the same persona he adopted when he scared my wife with his veiled threats as mandersonation at TheUnion. George, the Fascist left is pure of heart and he would just be doing what all intelligent, good people would do if they had absolute power of life and death over the evil minions of the Dark Lord. Or something like that.

George Rebane

PaulE 420pm - I don't think Mr fish had it quite that way. But I know how MichaelA might feel. For expressing my thoughts, I've been told to get out of America and go back to where I came from many a time on these pages by the Loyal Left.

Paul Emery

George

I don't recall that. Not by mme for sure. Can you cite an example

George Rebane

PaulE 443pm - No not by you, I wouldn't expect it from a friend. Google Mr Frisch's comments for openers.

fish

"Love it or leave it" right Fish? My country right or wrong. Invade sovereign nations, drone bomb civilians in their homeland.........

Jeez Paul take a breath, or a drink, or a valium...or all three!

Oh Paul, what I love most about you is that you so reliably slip back into your favorite era at the slightest provocation. Protest marches...hippies chicks.....good times....good times indeed!

Michael had a lefty hissy about how bad the United States has become. Michael works with computers....I'll assume he has adequate skills to work not just here but in other countries. If Michael finds things so offensive he's certainly not trapped here...he could find someplace more politically aligned with his needs and desires.

What's so wrong about making this suggestion?

Michael Anderson

George wrote: "Breaking out his [Michael A.'s] true colors, he speaks like the collectivist autocrat he is. Thank you. (For the interested reader who wants to check the record - there is no one of the conservative, libertarian, or conservetarian ilk on these pages who would dream of suggesting that impending Executive Orders be unleashed to subvert the legislative functions of Congress. Yet the same leftists call us fascists. What gives rise to this massive disconnect?)"

George, fanning himself furiously like an outraged Southern Belle, takes umbrage at such talk..."Well, I do declare!!" he splurts.

So you support a handful of ne'er-do-wells from the knuckle-dragging counties in the South shutting down the gov't and destroying America's good faith and credit, but an Executive Order from the duly elected President of the United States has you all a' flutter. Hilarious.

BTW, that whole "strong Executive Branch" problem? That's your creation. Remember Richard Nixon? Own it. Now your Frankenstein monster is another flavor of ice cream; the Executive Branch turned around, stopped targeting the people you wanted it to target, and now you're the target. Enjoy your monsterous creation. I am enjoying the umbrage, and here's the bottom line: payback's a mofo.

As they say: America, Love It Or Leave It (-;

Let's let Blanche Dubois install the bookend--"I don't want realism. I want magic! Yes, yes, magic. I try to give that to people. I do misrepresent things. I don't tell truths. I tell what ought to be truth."

Michael Anderson

Goofy talk from someone named "fish":
"Michael had a lefty hissy about how bad the United States has become. Michael works with computers....I'll assume he has adequate skills to work not just here but in other countries. If Michael finds things so offensive he's certainly not trapped here...he could find someplace more politically aligned with his needs and desires."

I am not going anywhere. At any time. You are stuck with me. My ancestors came from Norway and helped to the tame the west coast beginning in 1861, Seattle.

What I will commit to do is outing idiotic talk from people like "fish" who seem to have an un-American bent that may need closer scrutiny. Perhaps a visit from Homeland Security is needed? I can arrange that.

Michael Anderson

I'll address you first George: "For expressing my thoughts, I've been told to get out of America and go back to where I came from many a time on these pages by the Loyal Left."

Yeah, welcome to my world. I am Fifth Generation west coast American, and from about the age of 9 yrs. old, when the Tet Offensive made it pretty clear to me that something was seriously wrong with this country's leadership, I was told, "America, Love It Or Leave It." This crap finally started to end when GHWB took office, but only because he was a complicit, compliant CIA officer who knew where his bread was buttered. Which cost him the election in '92, BTW.

So my deepest apologies if I am getting just the slightest bit of pleasure in the comeuppance of a segment of this country's populace that is suddenly feeling estranged. MADE YOUR BED, NOW LIE DOWN AND STOP THE MEWLING PLEASE. Thanks.

America, Love it or Leave it. Heh.

The FEMA Camps are ready. These are luxurious accommodations, you have nothing to fear. Trust me. Seriously.

For Greg, I am sorry that you still feel the need to allow you delusions to wander regarding an anonymous comment that was not even directed at you, since I had no idea who you were nor did I care. I am very glad, however, that you have latched on to me as your own personal tar baby, and I truly hope that in your therapy sessions that my presence on the planet gives you succor. Peace out, bro.

Gregory

I was the only one your screed was directed at that day, Mike, and I was using my name and so I wasn't anonymous, and you were using mandersonation which was clearly you when googled and so you weren't anonymous. In short, you're lying about it again.

BTW, you're still at it. That was over your global warming fanaticism, and it's alive and kicking as your "precautionary principle" comment shows. That nasty little rhetorical device is just a restatement of Occam's razor. Religion, not science.

fish

I am not going anywhere. At any time. You are stuck with me.

Okay Michael....it's just that you seemed so upset....like a child having a terrible time at a birthday party. Thought you might like it better elsewhere...just sayin.....!

My ancestors came from Norway and helped to the tame the west coast beginning in 1861, Seattle.

Ah the exploits of the brave Anderson family, bravely taming the Pacific Northwest to make the world safe for.......Starbucks! God bless you!

What I will commit to do is outing idiotic talk from people like "fish" who seem to have an un-American bent that may need closer scrutiny. Perhaps a visit from Homeland Security is needed? I can arrange that.

I thought the progressive left cherished the rights accorded to all Soviet....err....American citizens!

Tell you what internet tuff gai.....you want your DHS buds to talk to me...that's cool! George has my work e-mail address he can give it to them. I'll put a twenty down that my security clearance is higher than yours though! I'm sure they'll be thrilled hearing from a pearl clutching "Gladys Kravitz" type furious that someone posted something on a blog that he didn't like.

Michael Anderson

Love it or leave it, "fish." Love it or leave it.

fish

Love it or leave it, "fish." Love it or leave it.

That's the best you've got......don't you want to threaten me some more?

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