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« Left’s Assault on Free Speech Unabated | Main | Ruminations - 13dec2013 »

11 December 2013

Comments

TheMikeyMcD

Our art-heavy public schools are paying off!
Connecticut’s Obamacare Exchange Spends More Than $75K In Taxpayer Funds On Three Murals…
http://weaselzippers.us/2013/12/11/connecticuts-obamacare-exchange-spends-more-than-75k-in-taxpayer-funds-on-three-murals/

fish

At $750, those would be pretty mediocre murals! I suppose that makes them entirely appropriate for this administration.

Ben Emery

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out"
Ralph Nader

What we are experiencing is the absolute failure of the social compact by the private sector and the public sector trying to fill in the holes. Wages, pensions, health insurance, and stability are all qualities of the private sector pre Reagan Revolution. Today the only workers that have any resemblance of these qualities is the public sector, therefore the private sector workers are being pitted against public sector workers.

fish

Strong words from young Ben Emery.....now here's Bob with the weather.

Scott Obermuller

Thanks for the jokes, Ben. Did you even read the points from the report? The private sector offers more pay and better working conditions than the public sector for competent workers. The social compact was always - 'Here's a job and here's the pay and working conditions. Do you want it or not?' Now the employer has to pay for all sorts of perks to even be allowed to hire someone. The govt has artificially driven up the cost of hiring and so the employers don't hire as much. We went through this before. If something costs more, you will tend to get less of it. That's why the govt discourages illegal behavior by making you pay money, if you act in a certain way. The govt is punishing businesses that hire, so there are less hires. Duh. Ralph has it a bit wrong, there. Crony capitalism is what he's talking about. And he 'forgets' to mention that socialism needs capitalism to fund socialism's money-wasting programs. That stupid mural is just one small example of how the govt pisses away money. Are you going to tell me that not having the mural and saving the money for the tax payers is 'an assault on the poor?'
Would that shred the safety net for the needy? Remember that Pelosi said we can't possibly cut any more money.

fish

Forget it Scott.. it's Ben Emery....the little Lisa Simpson of this blog.

Ben Emery

Scott,
I know Paul has asked this many times here and nobody can ever give him an answer. I will word it a bit differently, name a country or economy of any relative size that has used your economic thus political philosophy without massive oppression or huge amounts of exploitation of labor with the result of prosperity for all?

George Rebane

ScottO 814pm - I do think BenE's 718pm is correct on the pitting of private vs public sector workers against one another. The public workers have essentially bankrupted the urban jurisdictions with their unfundable compensation packages, and now they expect the private sector to double down on taxes and fees so that they can enjoy their largesse. One side has definitely learned to live on the backs of the other side. And as you point out, there is no ready fix for the problem given the way things are going.

Bill Tozer

My Brother Ben: Prosperity for all? Hmmm. You misread the Constitution of the United States of America. We have equal in the eyes of God with our inalienable rights. We are not equal in condition or talent or will or situation, ever, ever, ever. Mins, emotion, will, creativity makes us unequal. Brother Ben, you desire equality of condition. Never, ever happen. Even Jesus said the poor will always be with us, That is always. There is a reason for that statement.

Here is an example of someone who is not the sharpest tool in the shed, has one oar in the water, the elevator does not go to the top, 2 bricks shy of a full load, yet her condition is better than most of us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jEeX8q1NQ4w

Bill Tozer

One has to wonder how much this video would have cost the taxpayer if done by goberment. Yep, the private sector has the innovations and fun. Why send 4 people and pencil them in for 3 days each when you can do this in a couple of hours? Plus, you don't have to write a report which is read by someone who writes a report on the report you sent who sends it to someone who reads the report and writes a report and sends it to someone who reads the report and.....so on and so on.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=3aW1OP3J-7s&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3aW1OP3J-7s%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player

Gregory

It's getting worse.

STEM was bad enough, science, engineering and math watered down with "technology", meaning science and engineering with low expectations. Now they've added M for medicine. Premed is already life science, heavy on biology with chemistry-lite and physics-lite required courses rather than the hard core offerings that chem, physics, engineering and math majors take.

Medical would include nursing which takes even less math and lower level chemistry. My first wife, working as adjunct faculty at Sierra College, mostly taught "competency math", getting returning adult students with high school diplomas, many of whom were aspiring to a BS Nursing at a CalState, ready to take algebra, which real STEM students take in the 8th grade.

rlcrabb

Ya know, I really should have gone into the government art business. $24K a piece for some crummy murals is decent scratch, much better than what I make drawing politicians with distorted features. But then, that's my problem. I can't seem to control my political correctness long enough to get the job done.
It was the same deal with the Tribute Trail art. They tried to dress up nature with dog turds, but someone messed them up. It might have worked if they would have put the turds in a punchbowl. Can you dig the metaphor?

Scott Obermuller

Gee Ben - I'll answer that when you tell us if you have stopped beating your wife/dog/postman.... If you are really worried about exploitation of humans, then why don't you look at the worst countries in that regard. Hint - they're all lefties. Or just pure dictatorship. There aren't any examples of countries that follow the ideas of our US Constitution. We started off with good intentions, but the very crap the founders warned us about came into being. The founders of our country were keen students of the human condition. Hasn't changed a bit since we stopped swinging in the trees. Some are hard workers, some are lazy ass and some are power hungry. There is no right to prosperity. There is no right to financial security. There is no right to getting goods from the govt. The founders said so. If a job is a right, then you can never be fired and no one has to work. You, Ben, have to get up in the morning and be a productive member of society on your own initiative. That is the social contract. If you want to hand your own money to some one who will not work, I won't stop you. Do your thing.
Another statistic -
http://www.atr.org/taxpayers-shell-obamacare-enrollee-a8033
yessir, we be saving some serious money with Obamacare. Nothing to cut here, it would shred the safety net.

Ben Emery

Scott,
So you don't have an example because what you advocate has failed every time it has been done. I am advocate democracy, which has folded into it all of my other issues. The beauty about my position it has never truly been done a large scales but where it is done the best have the highest satisfaction from its citizens.

Our founders had it written into law that human beings were property without standing in our judicial system but yet these pieces of property were counted as 3/5th of a human being to give their oppressors more representation in our republic. Don't you find it strange the very arguments that many who share the right wing ideology share the messaging and opinions of those in the deep south during the early years of our nation?

The founders were just as flawed as anybody else but they were enlightened enough to know there was something better than what was being done. Self Determination is was the colonies grew to understand as their rights, which they used to tax themselves and supported mercantilism a.k.a. protectionism.

Ben Emery

Greg, 11 December 2013 at 10:39 PM

"getting returning adult students with high school diplomas, many of whom were aspiring to a BS Nursing at a CalState, ready to take algebra, which real STEM students take in the 8th grade."

What % of careers actually use algebra? Those adult nursing students took algebra a decade or more ago and have never had a practical use for it. In my case it had been 24 years since I used algebra in a class setting. So I audited a algebra class at Sierra so I could test out of the that level. I would have received an A in the class and will tell you I had virtually zero retention of the useless subject up until that point. The biggest plus was I could help my 7/ 8th grade players with their math and we saw a big jump in there gpa in algebra. I used to mandate a study hall with my players until they had to start leaving books in their class rooms in about 10'/11'. Actually my teams gpa in all subjects as a whole would increase during basketball season and until that shift in policy that stopped our study halls I had never lost a player to poor grades. After that policy shift I lost at least two players a season to grades. I try to teach my players that doing their school work and getting good grades is actually easier and way less stressful. I use myself as an example of how I just did enough work to play sports. When I started college in my 30's I just did the reading and assigned work and now am nearly a straight A student. No extra studying just do your homework and paying attention will get most of them B's and A's. I was very much liked by the teachers and administration for my extra time and effort.

But I am just lazy communist who barely graduated hs that wants the state to give me everything. That is why I have been working since 13 years and am determined not go into debt for my higher education. Coach at public schools to try and help kids to study and be better prepared. Science docent, parent, river monitor, board member of non profits, and so on. All because I just want the state to give me everything.

fish

Scott,

I really don't know why you bother...Ben is suffering from "starry eyed grad student" syndrome.

Mr. Emery is completely impervious to reason, logic, lacks understanding of human nature and most importantly, appears to have absolutely no real grasp of history. He can quote it, can link to it but doesn't really understand it. His last post refers to the "beauty" of his position followed by the admission that it his never been implemented on a large scale. Presumably Mr. Emerys congressional aspirations will be his attempt to bring his "beautiful position" to the US on the scale to which he alludes.

I will give Ben the benefit of the doubt and give him credit for meaning well.

And hey...I think he has inadvertently penned a catchy line for his next congressional run..... VOTE EMERY in 2014 - "I am advocate democracy"

fish

But I am just lazy communist who barely graduated hs that wants the state to give me everything. That is why I have been working since 13 years and am determined not go into debt for my higher education. Coach at public schools to try and help kids to study and be better prepared. Science docent, parent, river monitor, board member of non profits, and so on. All because I just want the state to give me everything.

See Ben...you really are an "Enemy of the People".

George Rebane

re BenE's 842pm - As far as sovereign nation-states are concernted, there have been no absolutes on either side of the political spectrum from total state control to anarchy. However, we have experimented with close approximations of total state control (and are still doing it in places like North Korea). The verdict is clear, more state control leads to more misery and death. Less state control has led to liberty and undreamt levels of general wealth and quality of life. That's why no one crawled under the Iron Curtain going east, or today is seeking to sneak into North Korea or swim south from Florida.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/02/ideologies-and-governance-a-structured-look.html

Yet here we have legions of the dismally ignorant who are doing everything they can to promote 'a government that can give you everything you need, which is also one that can take everything you own' (T. Jefferson).

Gregory

"What % of careers actually use algebra? Those adult nursing students took algebra a decade or more ago and have never had a practical use for it. In my case it had been 24 years since I used algebra in a class setting. So I audited a algebra class at Sierra so I could test out of the that level. I would have received an A in the class and will tell you I had virtually zero retention of the useless subject up until that point." -Ben

Wow... Algebra is a "useless subject"? 100% of the "STEM" jobs do use symbolic algebra, Ben, and so do many others. A gift to humanity made by 13th century arabs.

fish

George,

I clicked the February link and noted towards the bottom of the comment thread that while Ben was very busy that day he promised to return and learn you up on the "real" human rights...like from the UN yo!

Was just curious to know how that worked out?

Gregory

" 'a government that can give you everything you need, which is also one that can take everything you own' (T. Jefferson)."

Sorry, George, but that wasn't Jefferson, though it does have a Jeffersonian ring to it. The earliest politician to use it was apparently Gerald Ford in the mid '50's but he didn't claim authorship.

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/government-big-enough-to-give-you-everything-you-wantquotation

fish

My recollection of this quote was that it was attributed to Barry Goldwater. Some double checking casts doubt on that though....I see it attributed to everyone from Albert Jay Nock to as mentioned previously...Gerald Ford.

Scott Obermuller

No Ben - the ONE time it was tried it was failed (and is being failed) because the folks in power started subverting the law. Not enough citizens wanted to follow the law and they liked to elect men that told them the Constitution needed help and needed to be re-interpreted to better fit the modern needs of society. What I advocate does not fail, the people fail the idea. Ultimately folks like to blame others and shirk their responsibility in life. And there are plenty of politicians to whisper in their ear what they want to hear. All of the warnings the founding fathers sounded were ignored and have now come true. The people discovered they could vote themselves gifts from thin air and so it goes. What do you offer? "Let me take from others and give to whom I favor". And of course, the folks in charge of deciding who gets what always give themselves even more first. It's been tried a lot and you might want to brush up on history to see what horrors follow.
The Wright brothers could offer no example of any successful flight of the type they were attempting. Yet they succeeded by pressing forward with what was a correct program. The left proceeds forward with what has been proven to be a disaster EVERY time it's tried.

Bill Tozer

Think that quote should be attributed to William Henry Harrison, the 9th President of the United States, but he did not stick around long enough for us to know for sure.

Fish, don't call Brother Ben "The Enemy of the People." He did not take it too well.

http://www.theunion.com/news/crime/9305075-113/reported-caller-block-street

fish

Ah Bill....satire like genius is never appreciated in its time.

Bill Tozer

"The beauty about my position it has never truly been done a large scales but where it is done the best have the highest satisfaction from its citizens."

Brother Ben. It did not work out too well for the Pilgrims when they first tried in on a small scale. Neither in Red China when they tried it on a large scale. Even the little communes that sprung up around Gaberville in the late 60's failed to provide the highest satisfaction to their own nature lovers.

What you advocate cannot be tried in this country nor should it be. You would have to shed the Constitution and assume human nature is not what human nature is. You know what the say about assume? Makes an ass out of u and me.

Guess we all should be like the penguins and just get along and all dive off the ice berg in orderly harmonious fashion. Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Saddam's head rolled across the gallows floor, Qaddafi got captured and corn holed, Senator Patty Murray lavished praise on Osama for opening child care centers and everything would be grand IF only people would behave as you wanted them too. People are so dumb and stubborn. They just can't recognize your genius I suppose.

If you want to see a workers' paradise, just look at ants. They have no leader, each just does their tasks in hurried fashion and all is well. No greed, no egos, just busy doing their jobs for the common good. Just too instincts: Fight or flee. Life is good, simple, harmonious, and a true workers' Hogs Heaven. A man works from sun up to sundown, but a soldier ant's job is never done. No big dreams either, no stepping out of line.

Bill Tozer

A Future of Failure? Heck yes!! We all suffer from the latest disease and debilitating disability. There is no cure for Income Inequality.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/12/secret-out-suffer-from-income-inequality/?intcmp=HPBucket

George Rebane

gregory 153pm - Thanks Greg for the correction. I must have lifted it from one of those erroneous attributions. Fortunately its truth value is not diminished by the uncertainty of its authorship.

Ben Emery

Boys,
Your blindness to what has worked vs what hasn't worked is astounding. The history lesson that is needed is by you guys not me. The time when workers achieved the most representation, which resulted in just compensation is when the US middle class exploded. As labor's representation has diminished so has wages and the middle class.

Connecting dots doesn't seem to be a strong suit over here in fascist/ corporatist blog.

fish

Connecting dots doesn't seem to be a strong suit over here in fascist/corporatist blog.

God .....please tell me you were wearing your Che Guevara T-shirt when you typed that thought......!

Russ Steele

Ben Emory @ 07:06

We have connected the dot for you, and you refuse to accept reality, preferring your own communist view of reality.

Gregory

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarianism, and corporatism is the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction.

Neither of those labels fit *anyone* here, Ben. Your namecalling is false and defamatory. To be fascist one has to be more than just against the Ben Emery view of just government, to be corporatist one has to be more than disbelieving of the Ben Emery view of corporations as evil enemies of labor.

Ben Emery

Your ideological policies have been in place since the Reagan Revolution and since that time we have seen the greatest debt machine ever created both in private and public sectors. Here is the thing, Obama administration and current third way Democratic leadership subscribes way more towards Reaganomics than it does towards New Deal policies.

Wages = Demand = Jobs

So raise wages for the masses will create a strong demand, which in turn will create jobs to meet that demand. The hole in this circle is our anti American labor trade agreements. The jobs it creates is in human right violating oppressive nations that our A-moral to Immoral based corporations have no problem dealing.

From 45' to 80' both private and public debt dropped to their lows

Savings for average income Americans doubled in that time frame. Since 80' savings has gone in the red on average American (Households roughly $50k annually)

80' to 12' private debt has reached levels higher that caused crash 29'and the following years including WWII of public debt.

Public debt can be hurtful but private debt destroys economies.


fish

Whatever Ben....I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Russ Steele

George,

The link in this post is broken, I get a 404 message saying the article has been removed.

Russ

Ben Emery

Yes, I consider paying full time workers poverty wages evil enemies of labor.

Number one employer in America

Profit - $17 billion

CEO Compensation- more in one hour than full time sales associate makes in an entire year.

Sales Associate- encouraged and helped to find government assistance by corporation

Wal-Mart's Employee Food Drive Reveals What's Wrong With America

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-employee-food-drive-2013-11#ixzz2nNItoHix

Why Walmart Loves Welfare
http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/press/caprogressreport_mar12.shtml

Gregory

Ben, an accepted abbreviation of the year 1929 is '29, not 29'.

29' means twenty nine feet.

To everyone else, read Ben's 8:40 with feet everywhere a ' follows a number; does it make less or more sense that way?

George Rebane

Administrivia - thanks to Russ' 854am that points out the problem with the report's link in my post. I have changed it. You should have no problem downloading the report. Here is the link repeated.
http://www.issuelab.org/resource/future_of_failure_the_flow_of_technology_talent_into_government_and_civil_societya_report_a

Ben Emery

If you want to really get down to it the abbreviation ' with a year is not really acceptable in any case. So I don't give a shit about it on a blog. I get you are trying to deligitimize my opinions by pointing this stuff out but if I really wanted to I could go through and pick apart mistakes all day long on comments and posts on every blog or social media. It is typed conversation.

What it really shows is that you cannot control yourself. You challenged Jeff Pelline on his use of the word "choir", you have some mental issues going on that seems apparent to many but yourself. You need to get that in check or maybe you just need to get a life.

http://sierrafoothillsreport.com/2013/11/13/harvard-glee-club-and-later-only-steinway-two-keyboard-piano-coming-to-gv/

For the record my description of this blog as fascist, corporatist, and authoritarian is spot on. I could just call it a right wing or pro Republican Party but that really doesn't do the extreme positions found here justice.

Ben Emery

Greg,
Tell my how the largest employer in the United States paying their average full time sales associates poverty wages along with encouraging them to use public assistance while corporation makes $17 billion isn't evil?

fish

For the record my description of this blog as fascist, corporatist, and authoritarian is spot on.

Uttered with painful naivete of the "starry eyed graduate student" I referenced earlier. You might want to toddle off to Daily Kos or Huff Po where your opinions will find a more welcome reception.

Gregory

People with more musical knowledge than either Ben Emery or Jeff Pelline will understand the differences in meaning of choir, chorus and Glee Club, or that the Harvard University Choir, established 1834, really is older than the Harvard Glee Club, established 1858.

Let's have a count of hands... how many think the Harvard Glee Club is the oldest collegiate choir in the US? Ben, you are allowed the use of a calculator for this.

Unfortunately, Pelline's training is in winning arguments, not making good ones. His basic tactic at the link Ben provided was blocking most of what I wrote.

Gregory

Evil:
profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, esp. when regarded as a supernatural force.

Nope, WalMart is not evil. I wouldn't argue the WalMart CEO is worth that money and I'd avoid buying their stock.

Ben, you have every right not to shop at WalMart and avoid those low, low prices. They pay people what they say they'll pay them when they apply for the job, but if your family situation is such that you can't stay off welfare on a bottom level job at WalMart, either work somewhere else or work like mad to get promoted up from the WalMart job you started in.

Joe Koyote

Congratulations right wing megaphones. It has taken since Ron Reagan, but you have finally succeeded. A new Field poll has found that for the first time more Californians think labor unions are bad than don't. I am sure the big box stores and fast food giants are grateful because now they can continue to pay poverty level wages without fear of strikes and with public support. It is amazing how a lie told often enough becomes the truth. The wealth inequality issue has coincidentally (or not) become greater during the same time period that labor unions have been on the run. So be happy all of you shills for the billionaires, you have won and your fellow American workers have lost. The work force thanks you for further destroying the American way of life by nullifying the power of collective bargaining and replacing it with the semi-servitude of low level wages. As we all can see and hear on these pages, public education is next on the billionaire's list of things to destroy just like they decimated the Mom and Pop businesses and replaced them WalMart. I hope your children enjoy the lower standard of living your political ideology forces upon them, or maybe the excellent training you have given them (they obviously didn't learn it in school) will enable them to live a "comfortable" life at their department manager job at the big box store living in their rented apartment.

fish

I hope your children enjoy the lower standard of living your political ideology forces upon them, or maybe the excellent training you have given them (they obviously didn't learn it in school) will enable them to live a "comfortable" life at their department manager job at the big box store living in their rented apartment.


My children will likely live at a lower standard of living than I have been able to enjoy. They'll be saddled with multi-trillions in governmental debt foisted upon them by morons like you and Ben Emery. Sleep well asshole!

Todd Juvinall

Well if JoeK is right that the public majority does not support unions, then there is hope. He would rather put off the poverty on his own kids and grandkids than to face to tough asks of debt an deficit today. But, he lives only for himself, the selfish bastard. The tax burdens he is placing on future Americans and Californians will truly make them slaves. Good GOD Koyote, do you know how selfish you really are?

Gregory

I expect my kid will do as well or better than I, and yes, it did take sacrifices on my part.

"Koyote", I think the BART strike and public employee union intransigence in general has helped California's attitude adjustment along. Unions made sense when it was 'robber barons' screwing workers, but they've evolved all too often to being thugs holding citizens hostage with the help of the politicians the public employee unions campaign for. In short, it's the public employee union shenanigans that are driving down public opinion, not the "shills for the billionares".

It wasn't so long ago that Wisconsin's capitol looked a lot like Athens during Greece's public employee union tantrums. Now Walker is riding high in the saddle.

"If you want to really get down to it the abbreviation ' with a year is not really acceptable in any case." -Ben

Sure it is. See you in Nov '14; Nov '16 should be even more interesting.

Ben Emery

So lets just lay it out here.

In general you guys are fine with

-US full time workers to earn less than a living wage
-US workers to have no unions to improve their conditions
-US workers not to have benefits such as full coverage health insurance
-US workers to compete with undeveloped labor wages/ conditions and no environmental regulations
-US population in poverty to have no or very limited government assistance programs
-US corporations to have no or very limited taxes
-US wealthy to have no or very limited income taxes
-US industries to have no or very limited regulations
-US military spending to continue on its current path
-US government spying on Americans (just not tea party)
-US habeas corpus and civil liberties are selectively given
-US seniors, widowed, or disable not to have Social Security Insurance benefits
-US corporations to use the labor of people who are oppressed

The list can go on but we get the point.

Joe Koyote

my oh my.. this one ruffled some feathers didn't it. "morons like you, asshole, selfish bastard". I must be hitting too close to home to cause such cognitive dissonance. When the only retort is name calling it means I am right and you have no real answer for the issues I have raised. Thanks for proving my point about the megaphones. What you are missing in your quest to denigrate all things public is that by hurting the bargaining power of public employees you are also hurting the bargaining power of all employees which plays right into the hands of the billionaires. Good job boys for looking at the small picture and applying it to the large. If you are so worried about deficits (which many economists dismiss and austerity has made worse by lowering tax revenues -- the unemployed don't pay taxes but collect from government instead) try cutting the budgets of the military or cutting corporate subsidies, or making oil companies actually pay for the oil they suck out of public lands and the deficits would probably disappear without cutting the salaries and benefits of public employees, which in turn would bolster the salaries in the private sector as well.

"'robber barons' screwing workers" how is it any different now? Now it's big box and fast food screwing workers.

fish

God you make me tired!

So lets just lay it out here.

In general you guys are fine with

-US full time workers to earn less than a living wage

When it's better than doing nothing at all yes. You're not indentured to Wal Mart Ben.....get some work experience that you can put on a resume and move up.

-US workers to have no unions to improve their conditions

I'm fine with unions but between automation and foreign labor domestic labor unions have very little clout. Sorry dude....that's just a fact of life.

NO PUBLIC SECTOR UNIONS

-US workers not to have benefits such as full coverage health insurance

It's cool Ben they qualify for Obamacare. Hell, even you do!

-US workers to compete with undeveloped labor wages/ conditions and no environmental regulations

What would you do to change this?

-US population in poverty to have no or very limited government assistance programs

Well the absolute inability to prioritize spending by the government will make wide scale relief difficult going forward. Neither TEAM will tell their constituencies that there needs to be pain.

That "public debt" that you said was beneficial a few comments back.....it's not....and it's coming to eat the future.

-US corporations to have no or very limited taxes

If you can get them to change the tax structures knock yourself out. You can't and they won't.

-US wealthy to have no or very limited income taxes

This is just blatantly false.....

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/12/rich-dont-pay-most-of-taxes-they-pay.html

See I can post links too!

-US industries to have no or very limited regulations

Yeah....because if there's one thing that will make it easier to add employees it's more regulations.

-US military spending to continue on its current path

On this we're in agreement....cut, cut, cut!

-US government spying on Americans (just not tea party)

Again...now you are just being disingenuous. I don't recall any poster arguing that this is a good thing! But you go ahead and keep playing that script in your poor soft head!

-US habeas corpus and civil liberties are selectively given

See above

-US seniors, widowed, or disable not to have Social Security Insurance benefits

Who has said anything about this? I look forward to watching you dance when SS goes broke.....or when everyone gets their Emerybucks but a months worth won't buy a decent bag of dogfood.

-US corporations to use the labor of people who are oppressed

As one of the anointed... you get to make this determination? As near as I can tell, you think it's oppressive to only have three Obamaphones!


The list can go on but we get the point.


Yeah we do...you're a soft headed albeit well meaning nitwit!

fish

I must be hitting too close to home to cause such cognitive dissonance. When the only retort is name calling it means I am right and you have no real answer for the issues I have raised.

JoKe...you are a moron! Sorry dude...you mean no one told you....those happy afternoons on the short bus didn't tip you off! There is one highlight I'd like to bring to your attention ......Uncle Jerrys not so fast choo choo....it's all being built with union labor....they've budgeted 90 million dollars for the busting Madera to Fresno corridor! Maybe the special school will take you to ride it in 2052...don't forget to wear your helmet!

fish

Crap....90 Billion. Maybe I need the helmet!

Todd Juvinall

OK JoeK, yep, you are just too smart for us. You fail to answer any of our questions and we are the dopes? Please. You are the reason America is in trouble. You spend all your grand kids money before they are even born (leaving them in tax servitude like the commies) and have no qualms about it at all. I think you are just a morally bankrupt liberal and I do pray for people like you.

BenE. Please, you just keep the BS coming. No end to your ignorance. Did you grow up in a plastic bubble? fish nails you every time. We have the greatest country ever conceived and the people here, even the "poorest" are better off than 95% of the rest of humanity. It is simply jealousy on your part BenE. You have not achieved to possession you desire so anyone that does is just a terrible person.

My goodness man, you need to start educating yourself about real life.

Gregory

fish, get the helmet.

Off the top of my head: they're pretending the outskirts of Madera to outskirts of Fresno HSR line will cost one billion; the first bond issue authorization was for $9 billion, the total cost end to end is said to be $68 billion.

In other words, expect something closer to $155 billion in total.

Ben 11:57
I'm "fine" with little of that, it's just that *your* prescriptions are worse than the disease. You just know so little, much of that is in error, and your ability to reason in a rational manner is abysmally low. You're 11:57 is a case in point: you can't make a reasoned argument for any single one of those points, though 'fish' helped you with a couple of them.


Can anyone spot the Ben?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ukak8P2vY

Film buffs who aren't into Python (Monty) may be amused to see the renowned director Terry Gilliam holding the staff with the banner in the background.

Gregory

Damn, an improper "you're" got by me in that one. Call it a Ben moment.

fish

You're 11:57.....

Maddening isn't it!

Gregory

Ben,

Before it gets lost completely, how about expanding upon your pronouncement of Algebra being a useless subject (12 December 2013 at 09:11 AM)? I'm not sure how one could decide algebra was useless unless there was something about the 12th century one would prefer over modern times, but I am willing to consider it. Personally, I prefer Daniel Patrick Moynihan's observation that the best time in human history to choose to live would be anytime after the invention of Novocaine.

fish

I prefer Daniel Patrick Moynihan's observation that the best time in human history to choose to live would be anytime after the invention of Novocaine.

As someone who received Novocaine just last week, I say without hesitation, that it has my full endorsement!

Paul Emery

Ben re: 07:18 PM

Thanks for reintroducing the Myth of Ronald Reagan who along with Papa Bush tripled our national debt.

George 09:58 AM

I assume you believe that the burdens of national health care on the economies of every nations that assumes that path will put them on the path of becoming another North Korea. That view is also consistent with you along with Sen Santorum equating Obamacare with Apartheid. There is no other way that view can be sustained since no reasonable observer would view them equally as you seem to do.

Well the Sierra Reptile is back Here is a person equating my service in the Air Force Reserves with his stay home with the kids values to avoid service in the VietNam War which was all ra ra about. Funny thing about this is that his kids were not even born yet when he could have volunteered to serve.


fish

Thanks for reintroducing the Myth of Ronald Reagan who along with Papa Bush tripled our national debt.


The best part was how Reagan would literally drag democrats to the capitol and physically force them to vote for appropriations.....that was awesome!

Paul Emery


Re-write:

Ben re: 07:18 PM

Thanks for reintroducing the Myth of Ronald Reagan who along with Papa Bush tripled our national debt in 12 years.

George 09:58 AM

I assume you believe that the burdens of national health care on the economies of every nations that assumes that path will put them on the road to becoming another North Korea. That view is also consistent with your view, along with Sen Santorum equating Obamacare with Apartheid. There is no other way that view can be sustained since no reasonable observer would view them equally as you seem to do.
Todd writes to Ben Emery:

"My goodness man, you need to start educating yourself about real life."

Well the Sierra Reptile is back Here is a person equating my service in the Air Force Reserves with his stay home with the kids values to avoid service in the VietNam War which was all ra ra about. Funny thing about this is that his kids were not even born yet when he could have volunteered to serve. Those that live in glass houses.......

George Rebane

PaulE 344pm - Wow! That kind of logic, if widely shared by progressives, sure explains away the Washington gridlock.

Paul Emery

Well George please explain your support of Santorum's equating the battle against Obamacare with the battle against Apartheid. That's the way I read it but I can be corrected with a reasonable explanation on your part of your view.

Todd Juvinall

Uh Oh. look out everyone, Paul Emery is off his meds again. He seems to repeat his slights to all whenever he sleeps in and forgot to call the pharmacist. LOL!

So, let me see PaulE, your criticism of me means what? That you, a person who slammed George Bush for as you claim, was ducking the Guard for a year (where he learned to fly a jet plane) and not going to Vietnam, to your belonging to the Reserves and doing the same thing as Bush? That is it, I have solved the hatred you have for Bush! You did the same thing you say he did. OK, got it. You psychiatrists out there should send a proze to me.

Regarding me and not serving. Yes I did not serve in the military, I was 326 in the lottery. So, I did not get picked since they took up to 119 that year. So, I did not go to Vietnam. A war you say was illegal and wrong and were oppoese to. OK, you got me. I will go wail. But Paul baby, I will not be quiet. I will still exercise my free speech. You and the phony Gerry Fedor can go have cocktails and pretend you are smart. Yoo funny.

Paul Emery

The difference between George Bush and me is that I finished my six years and did not bail out of the last year or so. You waved the flag and sent out others to support your war. A true patriot.

Gregory

Ah, myths indeed.

Every single one of Reagan's budgets were declared dead on arrival by his Democratic Speakers and replaced with larger ones, and Bush the First only approved tax hikes because his Democratic Speaker promised spending cuts that, along with his homework, were later eaten by his puppy, never to be seen on the floor of the House.

Spending was unabated until adult supervision was elected and yes, in comparison, Newt was adult supervision.

No, I didn't vote for either Reagan part 1 or 2, or for HW.

Ben Emery

So lets start connecting the dots.

Supply Side Economics or Reaganomics were the idea if you gave the wealthy or corporations more money it would trickle down through the economy to working class people. Capital creates jobs not wages.

2012 saw the largest inequality gap since the 1920's, which means the wealthy are holding most of the wealth. Yet the main st economy is struggling, workers pay have stagnated for 30 years, health insurance prior to ACA had skyrocketed, higher education skyrocketed, housing skyrocketed, and the middle class shrunk.

Deregulation is part of Supply Economics. Deregulation was the number one factor in the most current financial crisis, which was pushed through by both political parties.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, while you were dodging Vietnam I was raising a family and paying taxes. You and Bush are the same in your view of the facts. Too funny!

Todd Juvinall

One more thing PaulE. Go through BenE's list above up back and like fish tell us all what you think about each bullet point. I know you won't do it but it would be great for all to see exactly what a great "patriot" you are.

Paul Emery

Todd

For the enlightenment of our readers can you share what year your first child was born?

Ben Emery

Dang Paul,
I didn't realize your grandfather was a Nazi supporter who became a US Senator that got you into the Champagne Unit and then you went AWOL. With that kind of past Todd nailed you for being such a hypocrite.


How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Gregory

"Supply Side Economics or Reaganomics were the idea if you gave the wealthy or corporations more money it would trickle down through the economy to working class people. Capital creates jobs not wages."

Neither sentence is true, Ben, just more caricatures no more true than thinking the Bens of the world want all profits of big business confiscated and "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

Ooops, the last one might be what you think. Is it?

Supply side and Reagonomics was borne of the Laffer Curve (unassailable in its basic form) and the thought that, at the time, the economy would best be stimulated by removing tax impediments and regulatory relief.

George Rebane

PaulE 404pm - Now why would I even presume to touch that purported equivalency to which you assign my "support"? You must be really hard up for entertainment to make that request. It's kinda like my asking you to defend 'your' assertion that Obamacare and the Danish healthcare system are equivalent?

Gregory

"[R]umours about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated ... Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser."

The Anti-Defamation League, at the end of the article Ben didn't finish reading.

No one here is "off their meds" but one of the sources of Ben's decade old Guardian article on the supposed Bush-Hitler connection literally was. Scroll down to John Buchanan. Sorry Ben, the reason you had to dredge out a Guardian piece from 2004 is there was no there, there. Guilt by disassociation is hard to prove especially when the Anti-Defamation League is on your side.

Bill Tozer

Calling someone a Nazi is no laughing matter, nor should the label ever ever be taken lighty. Nor should the word Nazi ever be tossed around hap-hazardly. Never, you anal cavities. I had a relative who died in the Nazi dead camps you morons. He was young, talented, extremely good looking and had his whole life ahead of him. He got drunk one night and fell out of the guard tower.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, my child was born June 5, 1970.

Tell us Paul Emery. How many children have you raised and had in your life?

Todd Juvinall

Ben Emery, why would you call Paul Emery a Nazi?

fish

Plucked from todays headlines:


CHINA LANDS ON MOON....... United States still tinkering with its health care website


...and in local news.....

Fuzz

As we join the latest episode of Hurricane in a Teacup, we see Sky Fuzz swoop down to the political sandbox in his EPA approved, solar powered glider and scoop up Paul, Ben, and Joe. "Come along boys, we'll come back after they've had their naps." Meanwhile, fish, Gregory, Scott, Todd, and Bill angrily pound their little shovels and wave their pails. With their favorite targets gone, they divide up into centrist Republicans and true conservatives and begin throwing sand at each other. "What's worse?.... I say it's Obamacare!... Well I say it's the federal debt!!......(sand flying in all directions). Then they raise their shovels in unison and shout, "Come back here you socialist libholes! .... ignorant cowards! .... bastards! Just then, Ted Cruz walks up and they all raise their arms wanting to be picked up first. Instead, he sits down, opens a book and begins reading....."Do you like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-am. I do not like them in a house. I do not like them with a mouse." Soon the boys have nodded off in each other's arms and all is quiet..... except for Todd's snoring.

Sorry guys, I just couldn't resist :) Now, back to fighting!

fish

With their favorite targets gone....

The targets are here of their own volition Fuzz....in Bens case I believe he thinks he's "doin the lords work" bringing the "word" to the heathen.

At least you're good natured about it!

Ben Emery

The same problem with the John Galt crowd faces in our actually reality. Who does the grunt work? Those who serve the food, wash the dishes, dig the coal, ring you up at the counter, stock the shelves, make the clothes, produce the food, ect... all need to live and survive. Which means shelter, clothes, nutritious food, medical, and retirement. You guys want US workers to compete with workers who work 60 hours a week for $61 a month wages with no benefits. In the mean time you want millionaires and billionaires who already have enough to live on for multiple lifetimes to have more because in your twisted world view they will pay the people who actual create the wealth fairly.

Evil

fish

Well Ben again you partially answer your own question. Who does the work? It would seem that more foreigners and machines will do much of the "grunt" work as you put it.

If you can lead a worldwide campaign to not have foreigners do this work....frequently for less than American workers, but often for "reasonable" lifestyles in their own countries....than you have truly found your calling. If like the US, these people do this work and gradually evolve out of it, that will follow the historically evident path. As for the unskilled American workers I would think that you would celebrate the fact that they can acquire some skills by working for a Wal Mart while still retaining the ability to access social services. Your "goal" to have an uneducated, unskilled worker pull down 80K a year putting Pringles on the shelf is delusional...as is much of your understanding of economics.

As evidenced by your "8 year old girls" worldview you think that you can pin down enough of the "evul rich" to alleviate the worlds suffering.....you can't.

I don't have to defend the rich, all I have to do is acknowledge that they exist and understand that that's just that way it is.

That's reality Ben.

Todd Juvinall

So BenE, who should do the grunt work? When I was starting out in the work world at age 13 I did the grunt work and was happy to do it. Of course I knew this was temporary and I was motivated to improve myself, both physically and mentally and economically. I come from a lower middle class background so I know hard work. I would suggest before you make a further ass of yourself with your generalities about who comprises the "Galt" floks, that you go back and read the books. Then when you have removed your head from the dark place, come back.

When I was in Puerto Vallarta this last September I learned the "minimum wage" in Mexico is 10 bucks....a day! So maybe you should mosey down to Mexico and take them on. Fuzz can go too since there is a lot of white sand for him to play in. But those Mexicans may not let you not work. No free lunch there for slackers.

Joe Koyote

Here is some reality -- a recent study using MRIs and brain scans shows that children who live in poverty have less developed brains by the age of 4 than other children. "Children in poor families lagged behind in the development of the parietal and frontal regions of the brain — deficits that help explain behavioral, learning and attention problems more common among disadvantaged children." Possible reasons cited were poor nutrition, parental stress due to poverty, and most importantly, a lack of books and educational toys that stimulate brain function. Conclusion: as a society we might want to do more to eliminate poverty because in the long run it is more cost effective than having to provide public services and prison beds to adults with under functioning brain issues caused by poverty.

fish

Here is some reality....

The war on poverty has been waged for some 50 years at multi trillion dollar cost. The poverty rate is a moving target, it allows the government to claim both incredible success when the serfs show reluctance to continue funding programs of questionable efficacy and let's them whine for more money when things ain't going so great...which is most of the time. Much like the war on drugs it's a perfect government program....it can never succeed and will never completely fail!

The success percentage change from program inception to present day...3%. From 19% when that scumbag Lyndon Johnson forced it through to now....16%

Orwell couldn't have conceived better.

Paul Emery

So Todd If I was a draft dodger then Bush and all other reservists were as well right? But of course not you.

Bill Tozer

Brother Ben, Brother Ben, my dear sweet Brother Ben;

"Who does the grunt work? Those who serve the food, wash the dishes, dig the coal, ring you up at the counter, stock the shelves, make the clothes, produce the food, ect.."

Easy answer my friend with the super sized big ole heart. Who does the grunt work? The fairer sex, of course. Next question please.

Gregory

Speaking of "socialist bastards", the latest school shooter apparently qualified for that label.


Regarding JoKe's 10:56:
"Children in poor families lagged behind in the development of the parietal and frontal regions of the brain — deficits that help explain behavioral, learning and attention problems more common among disadvantaged children." Possible reasons cited were ..."

Anyone else notice that "stupid parents", affecting both nature and nurture, wasn't in the list of possible reasons?

Todd Juvinall

Paul;E I never called you a "draft dodger", where did you get that?

My point is, I am repeating this for the umpteenth time for you. You allege Bush was absent from his duties aas a reservist so he could keep from going to Vietnam. You did the same thing yet don't recognize your similarities to Bush because yu have BDS. There is that better?

I was never in the service so I have no idea why you joined the reserves, only you do. I do know others that joined so they would not be sent to Vietnam. Could that be your reason?

fish

Oh my....that's funny...."The Peoples Budget"......(snicker)....who does your marketing? Staple the phrase, "the Peoples" to anything and your promotional literature might as well just show pretty pictures of the camps...lovely descriptions of guard dogs and truncheons.

I'd be careful Ben, you come to be known by those whose ideas you endorse! The EPI .....a veritable rogues gallery of state worship with all the accompanying budgetary hand waving. Nice!

In the first half of the twentieth century, the power-seeking Middle class dispensed with the pretence of pursuing justice for everyone: "In each variant of Socialism that appeared from about 1900 onwards the aim of establishing liberty and equality was more and more openly abandoned. The new movements which appeared in the middle years of the century . . . had the conscious aim of perpetuating unfreedom and inequality"; because the true goal was to end history upon becoming the perpetual High ruling class – composed not of aristocrats or plutocrats, but of "bureaucrats, scientists, technicians, trade-union organizers, publicity experts, sociologists, teachers, journalists and professional politicians" originally from "the salaried middle class and the upper grades of the working class".

Which of course leads to:

"Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

Paul Emery

Todd

Your branding me as a Draft Dodger is well documented on these pages as is my branding you as a Chicken Hawk.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, funny how things get transposed. You served in the Reserves to avoid Vietnam and now hate America, I never served (but would have if drafted) and love my country. Get it bud?

Ben Emery

George Rebane and his few followers support Arizona "show your papers" Law in its original form.

authoritarian - favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, esp. that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.

"BenE 1139am - Yes I support SB1070. Now how does that make me and half the people of this country not support civil liberties and become pariahs in the eyes of the Left?" 10 June 2013 at 11:48 AM

Once again people with brown skin not being able to hide the star of david are the targets of such laws. I remember a full US Citizen was arrested for not having his papers. He was a truck driver with an accent due to living in spanish speaking part of the United States.

Arizona Channel 3 News Coverage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSzxjd3B8Ik

The answer to immigration is

1) E Verify
2) Enforcement on major industries of illegal employment
3) Creating worker program for seasonal workers to be able to return home after season is finished

Throw some CEO's and executives in prison for their illegal hiring practices would take care of the problem at the source instead of the ridiculous idea of trying to round up millions of illegal or undocumented immigrants. But those executives and CEO's have very strong representation in our bought off government so the ridiculous policies continue.

No Jobs No Immigration it is how most everywhere else on the planet deals with the immigration issue. Make it hard to find a job. My wife when living in Europe had to turn her passport over at the local police station when arriving in town and had to have proof of employment or a way to sustain herself while in their country.

Todd Juvinall

No crack smoking and commenting allowed.

Gregory

"After all, even in Egypt, the Pharohs
Had to import Hebrew Braceros."

-Tom Lehrer "George Murphy"


Ben, how about crucifixion for homeowners who hire illegals outside the Home Depot?

George Rebane

BenE 413am - that is your best and only support of your claim that RR subscribes to an authoritarian belief system. What you may have missed from your studious receipt of news from MSNBC is that Arizona's law was nothing but a SUBSET of federal statues, which by your assessment must be autocratic. Well enough, now we know.

Ben Emery

Greg,
Usually home owners don't exploit those workers. How about the food service industry being held accountable for their illegal practices? 700,000 illegal workers it is thought to employ.

Or how about poultry industry?

Poultry Workers
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/injustice-on-our-plates

"Almost a quarter of the workers who butcher and process meat, poultry and fish are undocumented.13
At least half of the 250,00014 laborers in 174 of the major U.S. chicken factories are Latino and more than half are women.15
Working in a chicken factory is one of the most dangerous occupations in America. Line workers endure a frigid and wet work environment, without adequate bathroom breaks, while being exposed to numerous hazards handling chicken on hangers that whiz by a rate of hundreds per minute. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has not enacted any regulation to limit the speed at which poultry and meat processing lines operate — despite the appallingly high rates of injury directly attributable to the line speed. In the decade ending in 2008, 100 poultry workers died in the U.S., and 300,000 were injured, many suffering the loss of a limb or debilitating repetitive motion injuries.16
The U.S. Department of Labor surveyed 51 poultry processing plants and found 100% had violated labor laws by not paying employees for all hours worked. Also, one-third took impermissible deductions from workers’ pay.17"

Ben Emery

George,
There doesn't seem to be a law that profile, endangers, and strips brown skin people of their rights that you don't support. It might be law but that doesn't mean it is less authoritarian. Don't worry George I have plenty more examples of fascist/ corporatist and authoritarian leanings and positions. I will try and post one a day for awhile until the idea hits home that outside of the American Revolution you take the side of authority almost every time.

You wanted examples so I am giving the examples. Let me ask you did you take the side of Reagan, Cheney, Bush, and the side of the very split republican congress and demonize Nelson Mandela while he was in jail for not strictly obeying apartheid laws?

If your current stances on such kinds of laws indicate anything you were cheering Reagan's veto of the sanctions on White South Africa oppressive government. Now i bet you are in favor of harsh sanctions against Iran.

Gregory

Life in the real world isn't Disneyland, Ben. Buy California chicken rather than Georgia imports, CalOSHA is all over the locals, but meatcutting has always been a nasty business and it may always be so.

Someday there could be robots to do it and there will be one more thing the underclasses won't be able to do to earn a living. The faster you increase labor costs, the faster that will happen. Would that make you happy?

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