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« Why wouldn’t China …? | Main | State of the Union - we wait with trepidation »

24 January 2014

Comments

fish

Well isn't that just like a FASCIST/CORPORATIST/AUTHORITARIAN to light the Bat Signal Emery Signal on a Friday night when the super hero of the California foothills should be enjoying an evening off the clock!

Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?

Russ Steele

We learned to day listening to Tom Sullivan on KFBK, that the 4 million forced on to Medicaid are in for a surprise, or I should say the survivors after the Medicaid patient passes on are in for a surprise when the state collectors show up at the door. According to a law passed in 1993, states can recover the cost of the Medicaid care given in the last days of an elder persons life. If they have a home the state can take the home to recover the cost of Medicaid, if the person has a bank account the state can clean it out to recover the cost of care give before the person on Medicaid died. Caller after caller told their stories of how the states recovered the costs of Medicaid from family members. It is not free as many of the 4 million who were forced on Medicaid by the ObamaCare exchanges assume. Any inheritance of a Medicaid patient is at risk, to be taken by the government. I will bet most of the 4 million forced on Medicaid are totally unaware of the consequences.

Russ Steele

Thomas Sowell has another excellent essay on the Fact-Free Liberals: Part IV, published in the Spectator.org web site, which concludes:

The vision of the left is not just a vision of the world. For many, it is also a vision of themselves -- a very flattering vision of people trying to save the planet, rescue the exploited, create "social justice" and otherwise be on the side of the angels. This is an exalting vision that few are ready to give up, or to risk on a roll of the dice, which is what submitting it to the test of factual evidence amounts to. Maybe that is why there are so many fact-free arguments on the left, whether on gun control, minimum wages, or innumerable other issues -- and why they react so viscerally to those who challenge their vision.

I think we have seen some fact free visceral responses to posts on this blog. Now in the coming weeks we are going have to suffer through the fact free claims of the left about Income Inequality.

Ian Random

As the minimum wage rises and lifts people out of poverty, we should be able to cut poverty programs.

Russ Steele

Mr. Random @ 10:15AM

When has the minimum wage lifted anyone out of poverty? Facts please!

Keen Observer

I am as red-blooded in the political spectrum as any here, but to make a comparison between the atrocities of the holocaust and the current arguments of income equality, is a ludicrous propposition to say the least. Rather than target income equality, why not instead we target equality in taxation. The average small "main street" business and small corporation suffers under the over-regulation and taxation by government, while larger corporations and billionaires employ 6-figure accountants to hide their fortunes in tax havens. It seems as if the rules apply differently to those at the highest end of the spectrum. With that being said, I would dare any to argue that allowing these entities to place their fortunes in hidden havens benefits our economy, by disallowing the cycling of money to occur, which is a basic success tenet to a capitalist economy.

George Rebane

KeenO 313pm - From Perkins' letter he is not comparing to the Holocaust but warning us of the possibility in the sequence of things to come. I would criticize him for picking the lesser of the evils of the time for comparison. The Bolsheviks were the original murderers of the well-to-do in their society, and went after Russians specifically targeted due to their wealth. It started during their Civil War with the White Russians, and under Stalin ended 20 years later with tens of millions killed. The communists' motivations were more in tune with the views today's progressives have of our '1%'. This is not taught in our schools for obvious reasons.

With regard to capitalism's flow of money, it has always gone where it is treated the best. In recent years the US has purposely become much less friendly to the ownership of money or any other unit of account that betokens wealth. Please refer to our 'progress' in the annual Index of Economic Freedom.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2014/01/humanity-in-jeopardy.html
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/01/the-worlds-economic-freedom-stats-for-2012-americas-slide-continues.html
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/04/economic-freedom-in-america-kvmr-commentary.html

stevenfrisch

George, how could you possibly say that this is not a comparison:

“would call (our) attention to the parallels of Nazi Germany to its war on its ‘one percent’, namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the ‘rich."

If a parallel is not a comparison, I don't know what it is....here is the definition of a 'parallel in Mr. Perkins usage: "Having comparable parts, analogous aspects, or readily recognized similarities......Having the same tendency or direction"

Words have meaning...their meaning is not a matter of opinion they are a matter of definition.

Scott Obermuller

Welcome K. O. - "I would dare any to argue that allowing these entities to place their fortunes in hidden havens"
And who, dear sir, is arguing FOR hidden havens? And who, dear sir, is arguing for for differing tax structures? The comparison with NAZI (socialist) Deutschland and current rants against the wealthy are valid as they show what happens in a system where the volk are told they are getting less than they deserve purely because of some one else taking what is rightfully theirs. The Jews in Germany (actually world-wide) in the 3rd Reich were held up as oppressors and the reason the average German didn't have a comfortable life. They were the whipping boys for the govt that was unable to come through for the volk as the saviors of the common man. The Obama admin promised much and now can only deliver misery. What to do? Find some one to blame. He can't blame the Jews. That's already been done. So he goes after SOME of the wealthy. Them.
They are the reason for your low standing in life. There is no reason in it, but that has never stopped the demagogues. They promised. You can have your doctor. Period. So who to blame? Must be some one else.
Hitler had to start killing them, but Obama doesn't. Just start increasing taxes on the middle class and then if anyone complains, state that they are supporting the "RICH". New word for Jew. Discussion ended. Can't debate "helping" the rich.

George Rebane

stevenfrisch 810pm - ScottO's 824pm withstanding, I call your attention to Perkins' concluding foreboding of the yet to be implemented Holocaust. In Nov 1938 the Holocaust had yet not started, and therefore Kristallnacht was the harbinger about which Perkins is drawing parallels and warning us.

fish

Oh noes....looks like those hoping for suspension of the laws of economics in Venezuela are headed straight for the rocky shores of reality!

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/01/venezuela-enacts-law-of-fair-prices.html

Bill Tozer

Focusing on income inequality is a waste of time. Instead we should focus on raising one out of poverty.

Turning the 1%ers upside down and shaking the last coins out of their pockets does not lift one person out of poverty. Does not help me one bit. The whole issue is just political grandstanding to throw populace red meat to the masses. "They" are not the reason or cause and effect for my living paycheck to paycheck spinning my wheels on the treadmill.

My friends of the liberal persuasion look at poverty and turn immediately to the State to solve this problem that has been around long before Noah built himself an ark. Little wiggle room for personal responsibility and initiative to improve one's lot in life if one expects wages and income be mandated by the State. One could argue that increasing the minimum wage merely keeps one in poverty. Heck, $10/hr is borderline poverty as the spending power of the dollar does not stretch very far today.

The causes and solutions to poverty/low wage dead end jobs are many. The State cannot address with any meaningful solution the root causes.

1) Divorce takes a 2 income couple that are doing ok and puts each individual after divorce in a much lower income bracket and possibly puts one of the former pair in poverty.
2) The out of wedlock birthrate is now miles beyond acceptable. The child is at risk from the start, generally speaking.
3) Our education system is not preparing our workforce for the realities of a changing employment market. The graduates lack the skills to move on up to the East Side of Chicago. While the State can provide training, it can not provide the pupils' natural talents nor initiative to succeed. Hunger is the best motivator to push oneself without hesitation.

Yep, it's all the fault of income inequality. If you really want to help someone, do it yourself. It is insincere AND disingenuous to spout helping the needy and then cry to pass some laws and absolve yourself of lifting a finger by having the State do the lifting for you. And the State has done a piss poor job of lifting people out of poverty. The one exception is Social Security has decreased the senior abject poverty rate. Helping someone from going under is not the same as getting one out of poverty.

Joe Koyote

Comparing the rich of today to the Jews in pre-Nazi Germany is somewhat spurious for the simple reason that if the Jews had the same power as the wealthy in America, Hitler and the Nazis would have never been elected in the first place. It was WASP Wall Street money that backed Hitler not Jewish money. I think Perkins is the beginning of a propaganda preemptive strike on the part of the 1/10 of 1% (the ones who really have the power) to try and shame the inequality conversation off the front pages and slowing any progress in that direction. Greedy people will say and do anything to hang on to their stash even if millions of people starve while they chase hookers in Vegas. The big players in American politics today are the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the person who actually "earned" the loot. The Waltons, Coors, Kochs, etc. family members who are so active in the social/political restructuring of America didn't "earn" a dime of the money daddy handed to them, yet have a sense of entitlement that far surpasses any welfare queen.

Scott Obermuller

The Oxfam report just out is generating a lot of the buzz on "income inequality" lately. Not mentioned is the fact that a lot of the wealthy are in fact dictators or FODs that do take wealth from their own country men illegally and the poor do suffer in those countries. All of the "income redistribution" going on in the capitalist countries isn't going to do one bit of good in those instances. Cuba, N Korea, Red China and other corrupt and/or incompetent socialist countries will continue to do their thing no matter how high we raise taxes here. You help the poor by helping the poor. Not by hurting the middle class. You're not going to touch the super wealthy in any meaningful way. You don't get folks fit and healthy by making some one else grow fat and lazy.

stevenfrisch

Re: Posted by: George Rebane | 25 January 2014 at 10:18 PM

I guess I am used to the fact that for many words no longer have meaning. I am looking forward to the time in the near future that man returns to the primordial soup and re-emerges with new language and new definitions; a kind of Orwellian redefinition of linguistics in modern society.

I see this blog as practice for our new vocabulary in life.

fish

I see this blog as practice for our new vocabulary in life.

So says the man who lives by writing grant proposals.......I wouldn't think that the transition would pose much challenge Steve.

fish

I think Perkins is the beginning of a propaganda preemptive strike on the part of the 1/10 of 1% (the ones who really have the power) to try and shame the inequality conversation off the front pages and slowing any progress in that direction.

It had that feel to it Joe I'll give you that. Of course the big money is equally attended by power so I'm not sure what Mr. Perkins is really that concerned about......eventually saving the 99%er's will be done by taking it out of the hide of what's left of the middle class and those not yet born.

Greedy people will say and do anything to hang on to their stash even if millions of people starve while they chase hookers in Vegas. The big players in American politics today are the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the person who actually "earned" the loot. The Waltons, Coors, Kochs, etc. family members who are so active in the social/political restructuring of America didn't "earn" a dime of the money daddy handed to them, yet have a sense of entitlement that far surpasses any welfare queen.

Fun to watch the projection in action! If you have that kind of money there's no need to "chase hookers" Joe....you can have them delivered....perhaps you need the exercise though. Also, I do appreciate the fact that you segregate the wealthy that you perceive favoring the right and ignore the Pritzkers, Soros, and Steyers (among others) on the left. Of course, most of your (lefty) wealthy are first generation thieves so watching their descendants should be enlightening.

Oh and Joe have you seen our "poor" most could go without eating for a week and not notice....stop buying them Rascal scooters and maybe they'll trim down a bit.

George Rebane

re JoeK 856pm - The 'welfare queen' thinks she's entitled to my money. The members of the Walton, Koch, and Coors families believe they are entitled to their families' money that they legally inherited from forebears who built their businesses for exactly that purpose. And who thereby motivate millions of the rest of us to do the same, instead of looking to nurture our progeny through the fruits of others' labors. Class warfare at its finest.

Todd Juvinall

Old JoeK is on a buttermilk roll in his last set of comments. I can feel his hate for those that actually make the place work for the rest of us. He talks about greed while he is full of avarice and envy. It would be interesting to see how much he gives to the less fortunate than him. I would suggest the gap between the typical whiny liberal like JoeK and the mother in the backwaters of Sudan is much more than the gap between the Koch brothers and JoeK. At least JoeK has a roof over his head, probably a microwave, car, clothing choices and one of those cards to get food. My goodness JoeK, are you not ashamed of yourself?

Regarding JoeK's comment, " Greedy people will say and do anything to hang on to their stash even if millions of people starve while they chase hookers in Vegas." If that is not a jealousy comment I know nothing. JoeK, you could find yourself a hooker in town and make things even.

Todd Juvinall

Regarding the nonsense spewed here by theFrisch. A rent seeker who failed to pay his taxes which would have paid for his rent seeking makes me suspect he is not all there in the noggin. His primordial soup tastes like crapola

Brad Croul

Interestingly, KPCB disavows Mr. Perkins remarks. The article goes on to say Perkins has not been involved with the firm for years and that they are shocked by his comments. What a hoot!

George Rebane

Now that we have Tom Perkins' current employment picture somewhat resolved, maybe a return to his observation is in order - or has that become moot now that he's no longer involved with a "shocked" KPCB?

Russ Steele

A society first creates and then supports the image of the 'evil' enemy. The Obama administration is creating and enemy for the democratic base to follow, with the hope that independents will join in to attack the wealthy and in the process any Republican that support the creation of wealth. The Democrats cannot create wealth, so it must be demonizes, attacked and eventually distributed to the unfortunate. It has happened in the past and will be attempted again, as It is the only play left in Obama's book

Bill Tozer

Envy (including class envy) is an evil corroding soul sickness that once takes root, it sours one's whole outlook on life. Causes more damage than stealing.

Envy is not saying I want a car, wife, job, and a house just like you have. Not even close. Envy is "I want your car, your wife, your job, your house." Those that plan to storm the rich man's castle on the hill lie to each other by saying "When we get his big pile of gold, we will divide it up with everybody in the village." Again, not even close. Each one says within him/herself, "when I get my hands of that pile of gold I am going to be rich."

Same thing the serpent used on Eve. "Look at this apple, how pleasing it is to your eye." When Eve saw how attractive and desirable THAT apple was, the rest is Biblical history.

Once talked to a preacher man. Most non-judgmental person I have ever met. About 12 years ago. He said the most materialistic people he counsels are the poor people. I have pondered that many times since. I know many poor people and I must say the preacher man was right. They spend too way to much time thinking about possessions they want, even when their needs are met. An unhealthy amount of time dwelling on what others have that they do not.

Somehow in the progressive person's mind, they are entitled to the gold sitting around collecting dust on that house on the hill. The envious are the first to grab the torches and storm his castle.

Paul Emery

Bill

Would the Irish have been justified in "storming the rich mans castle" during the potato blight in the 1840's when they were starving by the millions while wealthy farmers exported their abundant food crops to England?

Bill Tozer

Paul, can you name one modern day American that involuntary starved to death? When hundreds of thousands are starving to death, there will be chaos and revolution.

Ryan Mount

The USA is one of the growing places on planet Earth where the underprivileged and poor are overweight.

Now, if we're talking about many [most, but not all] third world countries, they're starving to death.

We're more in danger of the poor storming the castle for free mobile phones or cable TV.

Bill Tozer

Ok, Mr. Paul. I though of some that starved to death involuntarily in the US. Those guys that got caught in the avalanche , but not sure if they froze to death before they starved to death.

Life is tough and that is exactly the way it should be. Where I differ from my dear friends of the liberal/progressive/socialistic persuasion is that they make a mountain out of a mole hill. Overcoming challenges are opportunities is the road to character building and intestinal fortitude. Tried by fire and all that. Perhaps reviewing your own life can attest to that. There is no short cut.

Someone working for 10-15 dollars an hour is struggling, but I bet they have a nicer TV than I and guaranteed better vehicles. But this is not the potato famine nor thinking the sky is falling just because a college grad is working behind the counter at Bed Bath and Beyond.

The progressives teach our children and the gullible that the game is rigged and the deck is stacked against them. That happiness is a right instead of the pursuit of happiness. The results are guaranteed or should be.

A recession or depression is not the sky falling. Even in the Great Depression, 75% of the labor folks were working. Because some dude that owns the Ketchup plant is making more than I ever will is not unfair in the least.

Income inequality is not the issue, albeit it is the current political issue of Barack Obama. The issue is raising the lower middle class (what the heck is middle class nowadays anyway?)...er...the issue is good paying jobs, not paying someone 3-5 bucks an hour more over a 3 year period.
This is not revolution time. The peasants in France and Ireland did not have Jersey Shore to keep them pacified. And the Irish took the initiative and came over here. Here is where the better life is, be it good, bad, or indifferent. The only constant in life is change.

George Rebane

re PaulE's 1124pm - Not sure what the Irish potato famine experience contributes to the discussion of inequality in 21st century America. Then the British colonials were clearly practicing a form of genocide on a conquered population, and the Irish had every right (as we have now come to know them) to seek the return of their lands and self-determination, whether they were starving or not.

Gregory

It should be noted the first modern concentration camps were built by the British to keep uppity Afrikaners contained while they were being starved in their own county.

Paul Emery

George

I was responding literally to Bill T's 8:21 "The envious are the first to grab the torches and storm his castle" by bringing up a historical event where in my view storming the castle would have been justified. (Irish situation during the potato blight) What is your view on that? In my view storming the castle is appropriate in certain situations. What is that threshold in your view?

George Rebane

PaulE 250pm - I thought I answered that in my 1006am. Our Founders made sure that Americans would always have the means to storm whatever 'castles' that needed storming, and considered popular revolution a legitimate alternative for oppressed peoples. However, they were (as am I today) concerned more about a growing Leviathan as the institutional tyrant that today we witness our govt rapidly becoming. It seems that you and Robert Reich are talking about something more like the Bolshevik revolution in 1917. Perhaps I can ask you to be more specific about which castles today need storming and which ones are you prepared to storm. We can then attempt to identify thresholds.

Keen Observer

George is indeed correct, our founding fathers instilled the means of correction (aka "storming the castle") thorugh the foundations of our democracy. However, even they could not envision the immense power and influence that the wealthy could have on the common citizen. In those days, "lobbying" had not yet been formed to sway the politicans through the unlimited resources of a few select. Powerful means of marketing (TV, radio, social media, etc..) did not yet exist, further magnifiying this influence. Its simple math, in a capitalist economy, money is power, the problem being that immense amounts of money is concentrated and thus creates a concentrated and powerful viewpoint, which could overwhelm the masses.

George, in regards to your earlier counter, the fact that wealth leaves this country may be a means to an end, but this does not make it ethically correct. That is the one flaw in capitalism, that although it most correctly accounts for wealth distribution (based on a variety of factors), it does not do so in the most ethically correct of ways. Capitalism does not spare the plight of money at the gain of a few. If you need further example of this, I would ask of you what Walmart would pay its employees should we abolish the minimum wage laws both federally and here in CA (perhaps 4.00/hr?).

Russ Steele

Tom Perkins on use of "Kristallnacht"

Venture capitalist Tom Perkins said he made a mistake using the word "Kristallnacht" when he compared critiquing inequality slanted in the wealthiest one percent of Americans' favor to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany.

But Perkins also said he did not regret the point of his message, which came in a three-paragraph letter to the editor in The Wall Street Journal. He said "I don't regret the message at all."

Details and Video HERE.

But here is the meat:

"I used the word because during the occupy of San Francisco by the Occupy Wall Street crowd, they broke the windows in the Wells Fargo bank, they marched up to our automobile strip on Van Ness Avenue and broke all the windows at the luxury car dealerships and I saw that, I remember that, the police just stood by frozen and I thought 'well, this is how Kristallnacht began so that word was in my mind," Perkins said.

Perkins was then asked what he was "going for" with the Wall Street Journal letter.

"The Jews are only one percent of the German population," Perkins said. "Most Germans had never met a Jew and yet Hitler was able to demonize a Jew and Kristallnacht was one of the earlier manifestations but there'd been others before it and of course we know about the evil of the holocaust. I guess my point was that when you start to use hatred against a minority, it can get out of control. I think that was my thought."

Russ Steele

KO@o4:02 My two cents worth:

If the minimum wage were abandoned, Walmart would pay what the employee is worth. If qualified labors is in short supply they would pay more. If there is a surplus of labor, they would pay what ever they choose to attract qualified employees. Economic 101.

George Rebane

KeenO 402pm - Ah yes, "ethically correct" - like 'politically correct', it remains for those who really know to come and tell the rest of us how incorrect we have been either politically or, now, ethically. Pray, who are the qualified who can ascribe such ethics to people who legally dispose of their own property (yes, even money) as they will? I have not been blessed with such abilities, but I may have been in the company of those who have.

D

Just completed reading your story. I was born in Tartu, my family, grandparents were from Voru, was in Dresden in Feb 1945, Kempten DP Camp 1945-1949. Came to USA 1949.Joyned US Army 1956, Commisoined Arty 2nd Lt. First duty Berlin. Ret as LTC in 1978. Very similar lives and would like to contact you if you so desire. Let me know. E mail: [email protected] .ie my name Juri was also changed to George :-)

Bill Tozer

Mr. Paul: Of course I have a tiny bit of historical knowledge. You used the Irish Potato Famine as an example and history is replete with countless examples of ruthless overbearing Lords of the Castle who say "Let them eat cake." I am aware that some ruffians stormed a ship and dumped British tea in the Boston Harbor over a thing called taxation without representation. Think the Declaration of Independence had some grievances listed, including the Throne failed to protect the settlers from savages.

Let's cut to the chase. While income equality may not be a good thing as the gap widens, it is not the reason someone chooses to work at our beloved Wal-Mart. Someone may work there (above minimum wage no less) because they are a college student or supplementing their income in their retirement. People make it sound like they are pulled from their beds in the wee hours of the morning and forced to work at Wal-Mart. Those who work there are working there because they can't get hired by anybody else, cannot find any better employment, or are classic underachievers. Not throwing stones at Wal-Mart workers because I have been called/labeled "classic underachiever" at least thrice that I can recall. And yes, I can pass a drug test and my records are sealed.

Mr. Paul, my point was/is envy. Class envy. Everybody has it lurking within, just some have too much of it, some keep it under control, and some live and breathe envy to their last dying breath. Good distraction from looking in the mirror. Blame the rich dudes and absolve oneself of any responsibility for "one's lot in life", to quote a phrase by Abraham Lincoln.

I just do not see how knocking down people at the top (assuming they are conducting themselves in a legal manner) is going to lift one soul out of poverty. Misery loves company and the castle stormers have lots of company. And the progressives among us want the cream of the crop to feel their pain. Feel a lot of pain. Give them a good taste of misery and force Mr. Moneybags to climb aboard the leaky life raft with them.

Mr. Paul, I just do not see global income inequality as an urgent crisis in the magnitude of the Arab Spring or having the lovely Marie Antoinette's pretty head roll around the guillotine floor. Every country on the planet has income inequality. What possibly could make income inequity rise to the level of armed resistance? Rioting and hooliganism is to be expected from angry people, just like Occupy Oakland. The only possible answer is wholesale mass class envy as the root cause of this income inequality hysteria.
PS: This is from the dude that got arrested for roasting hotdogs on the flames of the burning BofA in Isla Vista. Power to the people and all that stuff. Don't trust anyone over 30, flower power and no more niggar or bullshit. Rebel without a job, rebel without a clue.

Scott Obermuller

From KO - " money is power, the problem being that immense amounts of money is concentrated and thus creates a concentrated and powerful viewpoint, which could overwhelm the masses."
Ah, yes - 'the masses'. Certainly not KO. Would you favor us with a further explanation of why you are not of the 'masses'? And please explain why Soros money is good and Koch money is bad.
Also - please explain this 'powerful viewpoint' you speak of. Do all of the 1% get together and agree to a single viewpoint?
If the 'masses' are such simpletons as to be easily swayed by obvious propaganda, why does the left champion them to be fully empowered (direct democracy) to decide the course of govt?

Keen Observer

Scott, you misunderstand my position. Neither Soros' or Koch' money is benficial, they are both equally as toxic. As for the "powerful viewpoint", it's not rocket science and does not require collusion to create. The titans of wall street have removed beneficial legislation (i.e. Glass Steagall) to increase their short term profits, while comprising the long term American economy. These titans are smart enough to work together through lobbying to push their agenda. It would also behoove you to keep in mind that through investments and subisidiaries, that many corporations are intertwined, making it too ideal for them to share the same opinion, an opinion that is not always necessarily beneficial to America as a whole. I do agree with you that the masses are not empowered, they have been led to believe that the only two paths are either watered down European socialism (democratic party) or the raping and pillaging led by corporations/Wall Street (republican party). All tham I am saying, is perhaps that maybe the great minds should be developing a better way or approach to our capitalist economy, by fixing our system to work in today's world, as opposed to yesterdays.

George, in regards to "ethically correct," I by no means deem myself worthy in judging what is so, I tend to refer to a more biblical approach. I would refer you to Matthew 19:24, which in its meaning is completely counter to capitalism.

Todd Juvinall

KO's comments on the early days of the country are quite naive'. He thinks there was no lobbying then. Too funny! He also says there were not the issue of rich folks like there is today. Gotta love that redo of history.

There was a really rich guy called "King" and all his princes, earls and the rest of the nobility. They owned everything and the peons got the privledge of even giving their daughters ober to the nobility.

Sorry bud, but when our country was formed there were many rich and many poor. The rich have always tried to protect their stuff. But our country was so rich even the poor could live better than 90% of the planet's people.

The Koch's money is spent to enhance freedom. The Soros money is to propel socialist/communist policy. One is less toxic than the other. Which one gets your support KO?.

George Rebane

KeenO 955am - That parable of Jesus is oft used to decry capitalism while ignoring the role and works of the 'rich' in providing for a good QoL for those with less material and mental means. If a man uses his wealth to oppress the poor, then indeed that scriptural passage makes sense, but when a man uses his wealth to benefit the poor what are we then to make of it?

You seem to be among those who automatically attach fomenting penury to the motives and machinations of those better off. But the evidence does not support that when we look at the record of who gave/gives what to whom.

Scott Obermuller

From KO - "I do agree with you that the masses are not empowered, they have been led to believe that the only two paths are either watered down European socialism (democratic party) or the raping and pillaging led by corporations/Wall Street (republican party)."
The masses are not 'empowered'? But you are not of the masses, are you? What is the difference - whence comes empowerment? Since the masses are too stupid to see what you obviously spot with your keen eye at a nonce, why do think we should let the average slob vote? When does the average fellow of the masses get magically 'empowered'?
Your view of Wall Street is typical of the left. That it's all Republicans. But it's not at all that way. There are just as many Dems in charge of corps and just as many Dems in Wall Street as Reps. And there are plenty of Rs that are fine with Euro-socialism as long as they don't think they have to pay for it.
Soros money is toxic? So - OWS was toxic?
Getting rid of Glass Steagall was not the problem. The problem was that they should have told the banks that if they took advantage of the new freedom they had, they would no longer be part of the FDIC and would have to inform their depositors of that fact. And they should have told all private and public entities absolutely no more bailouts of any sort or kind. Throwing Frank Raines in prison for life would have been helpful as well. Might have sent the right sort of message to any potential political crooks about their possible future.
"perhaps that maybe the great minds should be developing a better way or approach to our capitalist economy,"
We had great minds pointing out the scandals and corruption and coming collapse back in '07. But they were called names and hooted down. The average person doesn't want to know the truth because it goes against their prejudices and desires.

Paul Emery

George

If it can be shown that the 1% have entrenched power due to the influence of their wealth and are using that power to control and manipulate the Government to do their bidding and that bidding is not in the best interests the earth of the other 99% would that justify "storming the castle" so to speak?

Paul Emery

FYI The Supes today shot down the Public Assembly Ordinance by a 4-0 vote tabling it pending a Committee report. Tea Party members were in attendance and spoke against the measure.

Bill Tozer

You can justify anything before you do it and rationalize it away after you do it. Go ahead, storm the castle. Won't be the first time the inmates ran the asylum. Grab them pitchforks and last one in is a rotten egg.

Toxic money? http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/09/02/koch-brothers-give-more-to-charity-than-to-right-wing-causes/

Scott Obermuller

Paul - given that the masses are nitwits or 'not empowered' (see KO's assessment of the great unwashed), what good would it do them to storm the castles? They can't feed them selves, read a contract, construct anything or even pay attention to what the issues are at election time.
After murdering the castle occupants and destroying the infrastructure - what then? It would be Animal Farm Redux. Oh, Brave New World.
Wouldn't it be better to vote in the Tea Party types? A return to Constitutional govt and no more free goodies for the 1% from the taxpayers and no more crony capitalism. Or continue to grow the govt and the accompanying corruption and cronyism. It's our choice.

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