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09 February 2015

Comments

Russ Steele

I have some thoughts on Mr Boardman's column at Sierra Foothills Commentary. Legalization will not boost the local economy, it will be just the opposite.

http://sierrafoothillcommentary.com/2015/02/09/misguided-boardman-legal-mj-not-good-for-local-economy/

I certainly look forward to other views on the issue.

Walt

Some great stuff to chew on our good Dr.
First, (for the sake of discussion) lets say MJ is legalized. " Big dope" is already spending millions to make sure the have the market cornered. Mom and Pop grower is sure to be regulated right out of the market. Quality control isn't cheap. OH,, the regulations that will be drawn up and passed.( with plenty of political pocket lining to make sure of that.... )
Many a time I have thrown the "drug free work place" into the mix, and what liability insurers have to say, and it usually gets ignored. Workers in Colorado have been finding that out that just because it's "legal", doesn't mean they can keep their job. Getting canned for "drug use" has doubled.
Also in that state, taxpayers have been paying for rec. MJ use. ( welfare recipients)
Will Ca. ban the use of EBT cards for MJ? Cig.s and booze can't be bought with EBT cards.( legally)
Taxation will be like herding cats. It sound good, looks great on paper and proposed spread sheets, but as I stated before, the bureaucracy created to collect and enforce,
would expend more than it would ever take in.( run a deficit from day one)
As for fiscally saving the County's bacon,, I say,, good luck with that, when every other county will have just as many "producers". So... Just where is all that weed going to be sold? I can see Nevada putting up their own "ag." stations on all the roads leaving Ca., just to stem the overflow.
Colorado is finding out it wasn't such a great idea. Soon Oregon's legalization laws kick in. Now to see how fast it goes down hill.
So pay attention to the "lab rats" and see if that's what we really want to happen here.

Walt

One more thought. Will the Boarder patrol stop, stopping MJ coming in from Mexico?
or will they just impose a tax, and the mules will have to pay it when they get caught?

George Rebane

Walt 1213pm - Why do you suppose that collecting taxes from large commercial growers would be any more difficult than from, say, growers of specialty crops that are grown in big greenhouses, or from any manufactory that makes and ships out parts?

I have no hope of small mom/pop RMJ growers surviving. They will not be able to compete with large well-managed commercial grows. The real argument I have is with the notion that NC cannot be the home for such large grows. I think we can if for nothing else than availability of water here in the foothills vs the flats.

Walt

Collecting taxes on MJ will be far more difficult than collecting on cigs.
and tobacco. For "big" MJ to be "tax solvent",, "growing your own" would have to be agin' the law. From this common ditch digger's view of things, you can only tax what you can control. I could sell a truck load of firewood and not worry about the tax man.
If I has a good spring on my land, I would have no problem selling a load or two of water.( at a huge profit around here) Yes, those are just some simple examples.

But trying to tax what just about anyone can grow is a fools errand.
Plenty of laws will be passed about growing. But good luck enforcing. We can't even get a grip on so called medical VS profit patches today. And once legal,,, let the fun begin.

Everybody knows somebody who grows or can grow. So even if "big MJ" buys the politicians,
the untaxed bags will surely outsell the taxed ones.

George Rebane

Walt 155pm - I think you answered your own question and made my point. The path of product to consumer will be determined by the market. IF the small grower can grow and distribute black market MJ for less than the big guys, and IF the add on taxes puts the delivered price of 'institutional RMJ' significantly above that of bootleg RMJ to also account for the convenience factor of being able to buy it legally a nearby outlet, then if all those IFs hold, the black market will rise and the big guys will be in trouble.

But you have yet to make the case for all those IFs, and the 'natural forces' will mitigate against all those IFs. Big companies will successfully argue that the taxes have to be appropriately reduced lest the state gets nothing, and the law enforcement apparatus will gleefully re-engage themselves in putting down black market producers.

Remember, we can also make all kinds of good hooch in our houses. But the profit margins are slim to none when compared with the buying the taxed stuff from a nearby store (and you don't have to worry about going blind; just take care of your liver).

Walt

??? You can't have it both ways my good Doc. Legalize for the tax, and legitimate sales,
then when the black market is there, that screws "big weed" out of sales. No tax revenue.

Yes,, when legalized, the bottom will drop out of the market. ( or at least it should)
That didn't happen in CO. Also in CO.,, taxes didn't meet expectations. ( called that one)

You stated before that Jonny Law wouldn't have the need to chase dope growers if it was legal. Seems you have just contradicted that. No,,, they wouldn't be chasing for growing,, just braking the Rico act.( tax evasion) Nice viscous circle.

Making home brew, or a backyard still is an art in it's own. Even less people can even attempt that, let alone make a profit. ( if they don't blow themselves up in the process.)
Yup, we give lip service to DUI,, since there is a parking lot in front, or in back of every bar. Yet even today a kid can get a bag of weed, easier than a can of beer.

So... What should the state do about the drug free workplace laws? Seems legalizing weed is going to open the door even more to the "new work force". ( illegals)
Pre employment and random drug testing isn't going to stop.
Even today, those with Med MJ cards get turned away from employment.( in most cases)

George Rebane

Ms Patricia Smith sent me an email reporting that TypePad would not let her post a comment regarding the renewed discussion on marijuana. I invited her to email me the comment and I would post for her. With a couple of spell corrections, the following was received this afternoon from Patricia Smith -

The economic elephant in the room is cannabis. Like it or not, marijuana accounts for more than DOUBLE all other agriculture produced in this county combined. (See the Union, Jan 17, http://www.theunion.com/news/14613687-113/study-looks-to-quantify-nevada-countys-pot-economy. )

I am working closely with the Coalition for Cannabis Policy Reform (CCPR) who are drafting the 2016 initiative to tax & regulate marijuana and I assure you that they are carving out a place for small mom & pop growers with a three-tiered system for licensing and taxation.

Rather than speculate if the program will work, let's look to Colorado for answers. Here are some Facts for you:

Colorado's was ranked #1 by Business Insider as the fastest growing economy in the Country.

Home sales increased 26.3% and the price of homes jumped by 10% in the past year.

Denver is ranked among the top commercial real estate markets.

Colorado has collected over $67.6 million in taxes and fees in the first 11 months that the program has been in existence. (Despite the fact that 2/3 of the market are medical patients who are taxed at a much lower rate than are commercial sales.)

16,000 good paying jobs with benefits have been created in the past year according to the Marijuana Enforcement Division of the Colorado Dept of Revenue.

Tourism is booming. Colorado ski resorts attracted 12.6 million visitors last year, and Denver had 14 million tourists last year that spent $4 BILLION in their city.

Meanwhile:

Violent crime has fallen by 2.9%.

Traffic fatalities fell by 3% since pot was legalized, according to the Colorado Dept of Safety.
Sting operations have failed to detect a single instance where dispensaries sold marijuana to teenagers.

Teen consumption has remained stable (no drastic increase in teen usage), according to the Colorado Dept of Public Health.

Does that sound like a failure to you? Let's tax and regulate the market so we get the benefits this industry has to offer instead of spending millions of dollars trying to defend the status quo.

George Rebane

Walt 524pm - I think we're talking past each other.

You are not making the case that mom/pop MJ black market will stop the commercial grows. Just saying it's so doesn't make the case. And I gave you the condition under which 'Johnny Law' would still chase dope growers in a legalized marketplace if the numbers made it profitable for them, just the same as they are chasing every other counterfeiter and tax evading manufacturer. The mom/pop market's survival is a dollars and cents issue, and until someone comes up with a spreadsheet that makes their case, I'll stand with me recent comments on the matter, including my 402pm above.

Todd Juvinall

Brian Williams has done the country a big favor in his lying ways. It should be noted that as the "dean" of the lamestreams, he makes many of the "news" stories about Iraq and others suspect for veracity. WMD's and Sadaam's quest for yellow cake and many other stories may make the left look a bit deeper. Nitwit Valerie Plame and her scumbag hubby now look like the chumps they are and Scooter Libby should be given a pardon.

Regarding the local leftwingnut blogger and his "panty-wad" about the Union and its Editorials. Notice that when a loony opinion from the left is made he praises them and when a conservative piece is published he rails against it? Well, does he think we believe his "purpleness"? Jeeze! It is so transparent the man is a loony lib.

When I watched Obama's interview with the babe on the Internet I was shaking my head in disbelief. He says the "jihad" is really a blownup story by the lamestreams! And that Global Warming is a greater threat! I mean, the man has to be drinking some real mind altering Kool-Aid!

Paul Emery

Apparently Todd has different standards for so called "Conservative" newscasters such as Andrew Slimebart who was busted for editing a video to create a favorable message. This was later picked up by Fox and others and amplified in national media. Earlier Todd said on this blog that he didn't care if the slimster used dubious methods as long as it was against Liberals. Here's some details.

"Media Matters has documented a timeline of Andrew Breitbart's smear of Shirley Sherrod, from Breitbart's initial posting of his deceptively edited clip of Sherrod -- which was amplified by Fox News and other right-wing media -- through the release of the full video of Sherrod's comments, which made clear the context of her remarks. "

http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/07/22/timeline-of-breitbarts-sherrod-smear/168090

Paul Emery

This is a direct quote from Todd.

"Regarding Breitbart. As long as he slimed liberals he was my guy. That seems to be the problem you have Paul Emery. He slimed your ilk. If he made a few mistakes along the way so be it. "

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 09 January 2015 at 03:45 PM

http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2015/01/scattershots-4jan15/comments/page/2/#comments

Brad C.

George, I also posted a comment yeterday that must have been lost in Typepad limbo.

I think there will still be a place for small, regional, certified organic MJ growers.
Think farm-to-pipe locally grown produce.

I like to compare MJ with grape growing or beer brewing. You have your big corporate vineyards in the valley and you have your smaller regional appelations in the foothills. Local growers will be safe if consumers want what we are growing up here in the hills.
If if turns out that MJ grown elsewhere is more desirable, I would expect the local industry to suffer. MJ seems pretty happy wherever it is planted so desirable variations are probably more a function of genetics than geography. People originally moved into the remote regions to grow MJ because the hills, tree cover, and lack of access worked in the grower's favor. Without the need to "hide out" in the hills to grow MJ, folks might prefer areas with less tree cover and more sunshine.

I expect plenty of regulatory hurdles to be erected by the State, but they will not be insurmountable and the cost of meeting these regulations will be passed on to the consumer.

A friend was in a Washington recreational MJ shop last week and, even with a glut of available product, the stores are getting top dollar. They asked what the price was when the availablity was scarce and were told it was twice that price.

http://newvansterdam.com/menu/menu-summary/#supply

Brad C.

That was wierd. I did not enter a security code - it just posted.
Supposed to be two Ls in appellation.

Brad C.

I read in an article on MJ in Morocco that the farmers tried other crops but MJ was the only crop that could survive the droughts they experience.
There goes the "MJ uses too much water" arguement.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/681267ef0cbe4799b5171acf95c87f2f/morocco-mulls-legal-pot-growing-breaking-taboo

fish

Apparently Todd has different standards for so called "Conservative" newscasters such as Andrew Slimebart who was busted for editing a video to create a favorable message. This was later picked up by Fox and others and amplified in national media. Earlier Todd said on this blog that he didn't care if the slimster used dubious methods as long as it was against Liberals. Here's some details.

"Media Matters has documented a timeline of Andrew Breitbart's smear of Shirley Sherrod, from Breitbart's initial posting of his deceptively edited clip of Sherrod -- which was amplified by Fox News and other right-wing media -- through the release of the full video of Sherrod's comments, which made clear the context of her remarks. "

So what's the big deal Paul? Whether it's setting Chevy pickups on fire -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC#General_Motors_vs._NBC

or selectively editing Florida 911 calls to falsely make a guy look like a racist -

http://gawker.com/5898876/nbc-apologizes-for-editing-george-zimmermans-911-call-on-today-show

NBC is the MSM "go to" for news fabrication.

I think it's perfectly appropriate they, NBC, should keep Brian Williams in the anchor chair!

Bill  Tozer

Keep Brian Williams in the anchor's chair. He is a useful tool. Everytime someone tunes into NBC's most popular 20 second news lead-in guy, they will be reminded in the back of their minds of another one who "misspoke".
We can't do much about Mr. Williams, but we do have a say in the other one who "misspoke and is human".

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10152796258860914/?type=1&theater

Opps. Did I say on another thread "no more visual aides?" Be bad, I misspoke. What difference does it make anyway????

Don Bessee

Re the ASA email to George- Sounds great right? The facts from the CO national Law enforcement conf paint a different picture. Of the 31 cities that voted to go recreational 26 have now banned it after experiencing it. The state sponsored financial analysis done by CO State U. shows that they will never hit the 140 million in taxes as originally claimed. In fact they are realizing that they will have to include general fund money in the budget for pot enforcement. In other words its not even paying its way nor coming close to providing the funds for schools and prevention. Their conclusion after the budget demands- 'revenue from mj taxes will contribute little or nothing to the state general fund.' Major crime rates are down across the country however in CO simple assault and criminal mischief are up and disorderly conduct up 51%, drug violations up 12% and fatal pot related car crashes went from 7% of total in 2007 to nearly 17% in 2012. Teen admissions to treatment facilities for pot up 66% in 2014 from 2012. Pot grows on parklands up 4 fold. Darn those pesky facts.

Todd Juvinall

I see Paul Emery is at it again. He says all the Breitbarts/Conservative internet sources are crap and then says he cares Breibart did a naughty. Can't have it both ways Paul Emery.

Breibart according to you and your liberal ilk is a phony baloney so why do you care if he edited a video? It seems his people actually did video some of your buddies telling people they could perform child sex and they would help them get an abortion. Wasn't that it? So, you go defend to your last breath your idol Brian Williams and Micheal "lying ass" Moore all you want. It just cracks me up.

Bill  Tozer

We have MMJ already and now are ready to embark on RMJ. Mr. Kesti a couple of weeks back argued that only after a year or so it is too early to get a true picture of CO and WA's growing pains as they smooth out the bumps in the road.

CO is basically an indoor grow state, with the lion's share of the regulated grows going to the Big Boys, aka Warehouse Growers. After a stink was made by the Mom and Pops decrying the Warehouse Growers monopoly, the State opened up market to a few Mom and Pops known as Greenhouse growers. Greenhouse growers are limited to supplying a meager 100 ounces ( not pounds, that's ozs.) per permit. Big Boyz rule, Mom and Pops drool.

WA State has a two tier regulatory system, one for RMJ and one for MMJ. The MMJ dispensaries are practically unregulated for all intents and purposes, coupled with a much lower tax on product sold. The RMJ is a heavily regulated process with layers upon layers of regulation on every step of the process from seed to retailer. Each layer of regulation increases the cost of the product before reaching the retail store. The regulated growers (many with hundreds upon hundreds of farmland under cultivation) are decrying the unfair advantage the lesser taxed and lesser regulated dispensaries have. The medical dispensaries are saying if they had to face the same burdensome regs and taxes as the RMJ suppliers, they would have to shudder their doors.
Growing pains. Pun intended.
Both WA and CO reveal one thing. The Big Boyz have cornered the vast majority of the marketplace. Mom and Pops: be careful what you wish for.

Paul Emery

Todd

Michael Moore is not a journalist, he an entertainer in the mold of Rush Linbaugh. You have no standards for journalism as witnessed in your statement which I will quote once again. You also admit that Slimebart "made mistakes". Once again your quote

"Regarding Breitbart. As long as he slimed liberals he was my guy. That seems to be the problem you have Paul Emery. He slimed your ilk. If he made a few mistakes along the way so be it. "

You have no standards for journalism and should keep your mouth shut on these matters because you are making a fool of yourself.

Todd Juvinall

Paul Emery, I have no idea who Slimebart is. Is he a journalist? Michael Moore is an entertainer? Wow! Who knew? I thight he did documentaries the libs like you cite as gospel! Oh well. Rush Limbaugh is just an entertainer? Wow! I thought you and your libs pals tried to get him booted from KNCo. All he did was call that college tart a taker for asking taxpayers to pay for her condoms!

I stand by mo quote that as long as libs get their "just desserts" and are called out for the lying scum they are than I will support "entertainers" like Breitbart.

As far as standards go. You have your opinions which are usually wrong and biased extreme left. I have mine which are middle right, correct and logical. I think you need to look in the mirror for the true "no standards person". I have great stadards.

Don Bessee

Brad C. The Moroccans in the Rif valley do not grow fields of 20ft. tall and 10ft wide irrigated sequoias bathed in chemicals as we have here. This will be interesting. You could see some of gov. moonbeams 25 million dollar war chest being spent to defeat a radical ballot prop like pattie wants to see.

Paul Emery

Todd

I am going to withdraw from this conversation to save you further embarrassment.

Gregory

Taranto at WSJ had another amusing headline today, regarding the shenanigans at NBC News...

"Brian Salad Surgery; Science, journalism and “moral authority.”"

For you folks who aren't Boomers, THE '70's album to see how good your stereo was at high volumes was "Brain Salad Surgery" by Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

Williams is now officially on a six month timeout with no pay. I can't imagine he'll ever be back in the anchor chair, he screwed that pooch. Big time. In network news, you can't make stuff up *and* get caught.

Bill  Tozer

Re: Heidi Hall's editorial. Only one thought. It seemed to me rather than taking a new reasonable approach (which the editorial clearly was), it seemed more of recycling Measure S. The question that Measure S attempted to adress was how do we help the small MMJ grower AND address nuisance complaints simultaneously.
Identifing the problem and appointing a fair and neutral...er...fair and balanced Blue Ribbon Comission is how the Left does thing. Moving on.
Small growers and their neighbors. Too many rats in the cage. Solutions: no neighbors.

Todd Juvinall

Thanks Paul Emery I was wondering when you would realize what an embarrassment you becoming. Phew!

Bill  Tozer

More on the pot industry. Maybe this should be posted under "Those Left Behind". It all gets down to marketing to make money. If you can't off your inventory, what good is it? And agriculture has bumper crops and crops wiped out by weather, pestilence, and foul unexpected weather. Such is life for the farmer.

One thing that has hurt WA's growers is the slow openings of retail stores. Less than half of the planned retail stores have opened. Why? Because many communities have said "No way, Jose, not in our town." Think something around 170 retail outlets were planned by the State Liquor Board, but as of last month only 85 or 87 stores opened.

Also, there is a big difference between CO's geography and proximity to virgin markets than WA has as this link points out. Consider CA's own proximity to the herb coming in from Mexico. At least we have Disneyland and the Redwoods to draw tourists in. More growing pains. Comparing CO to Wa is like comparing Yakima apples to Colorado hops.
Food for thought.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/washington-more-pot-smoke-155313445.html

Patricia Smith

Re Bessee, Feb 10, 4:44:

Facts are pesky when you have to manipulate them to support your opinions. Let's dissect Bessee's points one by one (and note that couldn't refute any of mine).

First, a news flash: "Gov't misses mark in projected tax revenues!" When has the gov't ever been right on any projection? So the tax revenues missed the projected mark, they still collected $67.6 million in taxes and fees in the first 11 months of the program. That is nothing to sneeze at. Would you prefer your taxes go up to cover this revenue?

So far Colorado schools have been granted $2.5 million to hire more healthe professionals and the Dept of Education's BEST program, Buiding Excellent Schools Today, has been awarded $10 million to finance new construction.

Bessee's assertion that the program is costing more to enforce than the tax revenues cover is also misleading. Between 2012 and 2013, in Colorado, the number of marijuana cases filed in state courts plummeted 77%. The number of petty marijuana possession charges fell 81%. That represents an enormous savings to law enforcement.

Meanwhile pot offenses that make it to court have dropped, creating a significant savings to both law enforcement and tax payers. Between 2012 and 2013, in Colorado, the number of marijuana cases filed in state courts plummeted 77%. The number of petty marijuana possession charges fell 81%, according to the Denver Post, Feb 24, 2014.

Besse also cited a 10% increase in traffic fatalities ascribed to people driving under the influence of MJ. He neglected to mention that traffic fatalities have been reduced by 3% since pot became legal in the state - hardly an example of endangering the general public.

He also failed to note that the study he cited clearly stated that MJ was not the contributing factor in these accidents. THC stays in ones system for weeks so it is entirely possible that these drivers were sober as a judge when the accident occured. He also didn't mention that even the examples of drivers that tested positive for marijuana accounted for an increase of 3 incidents, from 44 to 47 accidents, while drivers under the influence of alcohol made up the bulk of the remaining 498 fatalities.

Bill  Tozer

When playing with the numbers, one must also take into account population increases, icy roads, time of day, etc. Yesirre, didn't CA push through the Lotto on the marketing campaign "our schools win too". They were saying at the time that so much money was projected to fill the State's coffers than the San Diego School District should be ordering their own snow plows.

Two things are certain. First, government always has a knack of losing money and tossing it up into the air with less coming down with each toss, from revenue generated from cig taxes to pay for Health Programs to fixing potholes to making custom license plates, to CDV on recyclable items. Just saying....

Second, it is still way too early to get a good picture on just two states that have legalized recreational marijuana. Once the newness wears off, we can play with figures. Until then, one or two harvests are just amonolies. Remember the excitement when we had our first million dollar scratch off winner? Heck, they threw him a parade and televised it. I still remember his goofy Irish Leprechaun hat. Wait for the hype to die down and then tell me some names of the last 50-200 lottery million dollar winners.
Yes, 2016 is coming up too soon so I hope we get it right. If not, the Late Night comedians will have a field day.

Don Bessee

Not my assertions, these are the official reports as of Jan 2015 so referring to a feb 2014 article is irrelevant. The financial analysis was paid for by the state and was done by CO. State U., a more reliable source than the asa. Just look at the WAG (wild ass guess) that was framed as an analysis of Nevada County, if you read closely the whole premise is based on a guesstamate on top of an opinion on top of another guess. Probably used the same stringent scientific standards that generated the asa poll of voters that said 70% of voters favored measure s when in fact it was just the opposite. The projected numbers sold to the voters were not the governments but the proponents. It was promised that 40 million would go to schools so crowing about the paltry 10 million that happened only confirms what was presented last month. We have already provided the sourcing to many interested parties in Nevada County.

Patricia Smith

If you provided the sourcing "to many interested parties" in NC, why can't you cite your sources here like I did? Most of my facts came from official gov't documents, others from published newspaper articles that did tthe research, but I cite them.

I also attended a seminar on Jan 5, where Jordan Welington, state regulator of Colorado's Marijuana Enforcement Division, who believes the program is working much better than he had expected. He acknowledged some problems they are still working out - like dosing standards for edibles that we wholeheartedly support.

Again, it is primarily law enforcement (and Don Bessee) who try to deride the benefits that have come from legalizing marijuana.

The leaders of the Coalition for Cannabis Policy Reform will be in Nevada County on March 10 for a stakeholder's meeting about the 2016 initiative. I suggest parties from all sides attend this meeting to voice your concerns. Venue and time TBD.

Paul Emery

This is a good time to remind ourselves that Law Enforcement fought to the bitter end the enactment of the 21sth Amendment that ended prohibition. If they would have had their way it would be illegal today to have a beer while watching a football game or a glass of wine with dinner. The law enforcement, incarnation unions and lobby are very strong and will fight legalization to the bitter end because enforcement is a cash cow to all of them.

Paul Emery

George

Concerning the "Bush lied" segment of this post can we agree that concerning WMD's there are four possible scenarios.

1 Bush Lied
2 He was fed faulty intelligence by the CIA and others that he based his decision on
3 That WMD's did exist but were either hurried out of the country or are still there and never discovered.
4. Bush/Cheney created a culture of not wanting to know

Pick one or add other options

Todd Juvinall

Bush and Cheney are great Americans. They did a fine job and the economy was fantastic until the liberal policies from Clinton kicked in. Paul Emery, just move on man you look totally foolish and paranoid.

George Boardman

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with The Union's editorial policy and practices, unless you can't get over the fact that you aren't running the editorial department anymore.

Let's examine Pelline's two most recent criticisms of The Union. First, he says the paper doesn't provide context or background information on Sue Jeffrey's contributed column, thus presumable leading the paper's gullible readers down the garden path.

What context does the paper need to provide? That this is the latest in a series of commentaries on the acceptance of newcomers, a topic that was first addressed by Jim Firth? Regular readers of the editorial page can figure it out all by themselves.

As long as Jeffrey is expressing her personal opinion, there's no need to list her political affiliations or activities. If readers can't figure out where she's coming from politically, they should skip to the less challenging material found on the comics and sports pages.

Apparently behind on his monthly quota of criticism, Pelline accuses The Union of showing poor taste because a reporter was trying to learn more about a wreck that killed a 17-year-old girl. Let's put this in context, something he chose not to do.

The wreck occurred Saturday and the reporter was working Sunday on a story for Monday's newspaper. The CHP said it couldn't explain how the victim's car ended up in the northbound lanes of Highway 49, and no witnesses came forward at the crash scene. It's not poor taste to seek out witnesses who may not have stopped and could explain what happened; it's what reporters do.

Pelline knows all this--after all, as he keeps reminding everybody, he's a former big time reporter. He just chooses to be intellectually dishonest.

Todd Juvinall

If I recall correctly, Pelline has not asked for all the background of the libs when they do a post. How about Ron Lowe? The Union gives that lefty nut a weekly space almost. But, as we all know, Pelline is a redder then red lefty and he will not do as he tells everyone else to do. That is why he has no credibility. He is the Brian Williams of Nevada County.

Mary Ann

20' tall plants Don?

That's the same height as a phone pole and something I'd like to see. Is there a place I could see this?

Walt

Maybe I missed it somewhere. I have yet to hear how the legalization will affect employees and job seekers. In CO. getting canned for MJ use is up 50%. Insurance Co.s sure are not going to drop their standards, most employers don't want drug users in they employ,
HELL.. even prescribed meds can cause you to get shown the door.
Once legal, you can bet your bottom dollar insurance Co,'s will increase their demand for drug testing, and if you don't your premiums will go up.(way up) Same goes for worker's comp. Or will Obamacare fill the gap? ( I don't think so.)
How bout welfare? will EBT cover weed buys? Why should taxpayers pay for someone to get stoned instead of working? ( Just say'n.)

drivebyposter

"Concerning the "Bush lied" segment of this post can we agree that concerning WMD's etc. etc. etc. (hey, at least it's not a screed about Prescott Bush and the Nazis)"

A not unreasonable way to look at all of it is through the lens of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_Percent_Doctrine

Strange things can happen when a bunch of people, hardly any of whom have exceptional abilities, sit in hidden meeting rooms for weeks at a time being fed mountains of documents and reports. The virtual world that they concoct may have little to do with reality.

Don Bessee

The slide shows from the Sheriffs office of actual grows in Nevada county have been presented multiples times Mary Ann. The most recent was at the BOS chambers during the election. I believe Dr. R and many others were there and I think they may still be on the website. There are some where a full size pickup is in the frame for perspective. ============= With regard to edibles they are on the verge of banning them in the CO legislature. Gummies and suckers are grossly inappropriate marketing to kids. --- Paul E can you tell us what you believe the percentage of the Fed and State prison population is there for simple weed?

joe smith

Re: 20' tall plants. Tall has little if nothing to do with pounds of bud or strength of the product. Some of the tallest cannabis strains produce weak, airy bud that have little market value. Gauging the "evilness' of the weed by the length of the stem is like gauging sexual prowess by the same metric. If you are simply afraid of some plant (feed me Seymore), be plenty afraid of 20 feet tall. If you are afraid of the potential community collapse caused by reefer madness, educate yourself.

Paul Emery

Thats about it for Scot Walter

Next up?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/11/scott-walker-dodges-question-on-whether-he-believes-in-evolution_n_6663218.html

Paul Emery

RE Don Besse

I don't have the stats on that but here is a reasonable estimate as of 2010 on the costs of enforcement. 4.6 billion

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/marijuana-arrests-cost-racially-biased_n_3385756.html

Paul Emery

Pardon my typo 3.6 Billion

Bill  Tozer

Oh Mr. Paul, no worries. What's a billion or trillion among comrades? That is just a rounding error in government speakese.

Michael R. Kesti

Paul Emery 11Feb15 08:28 PM

The cost of The War on the American People (AKA The War on Drugs) is difficult to know as it depends on what is included in those costs and who does the counting. One source I found, The Drug Policy Alliance puts it at $1 trillion over the last four decades. That's $25 billion per year for programs that have clearly failed to achieve their apparent goals.

Walt

Where will LIBS get their news now? Fake news is now gone.( Colbert and Stewart)
Liewitness news has just caned their top fibber. I'm surprised Shakedown Al didn't extort and arm twist to take the thrown. Now the heat is on.. Al's days might be numbered since NBC has publicly taken a stance on liers in their employ. Al as plenty to account for.

Place your bets. Will Rev. Al get the same "equal" treatment from NBC? or is it only white guys that can get fired,,, uh,,, laid off (for six months) for BS reporting and/or messing with facts.

Don Bessee

Huffpro guestametes based on soros foundation claims, really? The question was the number of actual residents of CA and Fed prisons there on weed only. Percentage will do. Going back to times before the shift in the status of weed in CA is just a bob and weave move. ----- Joe Smith, I have met the grower of one of those giant farms, he would seriously dispute your view of his product. Going for a refer madness deflection is lame. The problem for you guys is that we have educated ourselves and that has galvanized the opposition to allowing kids access. So is it medicine or not? SAM is all about protecting kids and preventing another big tobacco that must market to kids go grow. What say you about making kid enticing candy with honey oil? IF we are going to loosen the rule for adults there must be a corresponding escalation of penalties for marketing to kids.

Paul Emery

Don B

You're flailing around here. Any way you look at it it's a shit load of taxpayers money enforcing an unenforceable law.

Bill  Tozer

Walt and maybe Mr. Paul. It ain't Shakedown Al you should watching. The Overr the Hill Gang's true leader has mounted his high horse and a gunning after racism. First it was the Oscars and now little league. Racism rears its ugly head again. It's everywhere and after his afternoon nap with his mistress and visiting his children in the pen, its time again for Jesse Jackson to ride into Dodge and lay down the law. Jesse is coming amd boy is he pissed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jesse-jackson-race-factor-chicago-little-league-cheating-call/?ftag=YHF4eb9d17

George Rebane

PaulE 308pm - Your 2 and 3 are plausible possibilities to which I and many others have subscribed. I attribute no known culpability (keying on your use of "fed") to the intelligence services when they dished up their analyses to western leaders that included Bush2. Were I to assign probabilities (beliefs) to those alternatives, I would go with 0.30 to #2 and 0.70 to #3, the latter due to reports of satellite photos showing long truck convoys headed for Syria in anticipation of the invasion, and the massive amounts of WMDs now found in Syria.

joe smith

Beese 2/11 22:08
"We have educated ourselves". Not very well it seems. If you weren't such an expert, you might learn a thing or two.

Don Bessee

Jsmith- Gov Brown just told the legislature he will veto any legalization bills is the latest in from sac. On the Daily Beast today they dissected how high times and huffpro spread the false story about pot tax refunds in CO. Comparing the landscape of the 70's and 80's to now is not relevant since so many states have decriminalized and adopted a form of mmj. The tired old refrain of the jails are full of pot only inmates is just plain false in CA or the Federal prisons. Can we actually talk about how we are going to go forward managing the issue in a way that protects kids?

Patricia Smith

Don, clearly the "Just Say No," campaign has failed, the zero-tolerance approach has failed, and the lock 'em up and throw away the key has failed to curb the war on drugs.

Maybe it's time for a SMARTER approach (not to be confused with the same old approach from SAM). There is a very informative pamphlet called, "Safety First, Talking to your Teens about Marijuana." It's available online at http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/safetyfirst.pdf.

I suggest you read it and stop trying to muddy the waters by claiming the legalization leads to increased teen use when gov't statistics show that teen use has remained stable or declined in states that legalize MMJ.

Walt

Forget Prop 47? Jails have already been cleaned out of dopers,, uh minor offenders,
Hell we can't even keep major dealers behind bars. Mules are out in less than 48 hours.

In CO.,, thugs are still busy robbing people (and yes some killings) who leave the pot shops. Dope theft is still alive and well in CO. That information is easy to find. ( If you care to look.)

Still... No one has dared touch the employment angle. ( Nope,, just NOT going to go there.)
The only people with money these days are those that are working. Maybe the number crunchers here came come up with a percentage of those who will risk their jobs for using "leagal" weed.
I have alrady asked my boss what he would do if MJ became legal. Answer. " Increase the frequency of random dug tests." Those tests are cheap. Liability insurance isn't.

Bill  Tozer

Don, it's a 'coming whether we like it our not. Myself, I have smoked up more than the weight of a new Mercedes or two in my lifetime of them wacky tobaccy hoochie hoochie zigzag marijuana cigarettes. I just don't smoke it no more, haven't grown or smoke in pert' near 25 years. It's like telling young people to abstain from playing hide the salami.

Personally, if I knew someone who was suffering bad I would let them grow a few marijuana cigarette plants on the back forty. I got sunshine, land, and no neighbors within hundreds of feet plus more. Or, I would grow some myself and give it away, except I don't know a single person who smokes anymore and have no idea where to even get some seeds or starters of the marihuana hoochie hoochie zigzag cigarette plant.
After watching my Dad wither away and other friends' parents pass on after suffering, I sure wish I had thought about gietting them some grass. Didn't even cross my mind.

Don, I share your concerns about opening Pardoria's Box, the can of worms, standing on the slippery slope, etc. I even Just Said No to Meadure S. Having a population of stoned out people acting like I used to cannot be good. But the train is coming and recreational hoochie hoochie Marihuana cigarettes be coming down the tracks. I just accept it. I don't have to smoke it and I don't. I don't have to get in on the fun and I don't plan to. I got not control what others do and never have.
On the rare occasion when I pick up a hitchhiker and they ask me if I would like a toke off of the marihuana hoochie hoochie bull frog blue ass glue cigarette, I always say "No thank you, I have had enough."

Advantage Smith.

Paul Emery

Don, and anyone else,

In your view what would the economic consequences be if Nevada County drafted a Yuba County type ordinance and it was effectively enforced. If you can include schools, retail, real estate Tax revenue and anything else you might think of. I know it will be a guestimate but give it a go. The questions will be asked because the business community and County and municipal government agencies will need to know for future planning.

Michael R. Kesti

Walt 12Feb15 01:57 PM

Perhaps the reason nobody will get to the employment angle is that it is irrelevant. Yes, there will probably be employers that continue to test for marijuana and dismiss those who fail those tests. That is a matter for those employers and employees, however, and should in no way prevent legalization.

Further, I believe that legalization will eventually lead to case law that requires proof of intoxication while working rather than use in the last month or so in order for the users of a legal substance to be liable for that use.

Brad C.

Paul, I think the counties that are prohibiting (or severely restricting) grows are going to make it that much more beneficial for the counties that are more 420 friendly.
In Oregon, one city legalized dispensaries, and the city about a mile away prohibited dispensaries. How hard is it to drive a mile to get your meds? In Colorado, Colorado Springs prohibited MJ stores. But a few miles away in Manitou it is allowed. I guess Manitou is going to make out. Now Las Vegas is thinking about getting into the act. I guess if Cali does not legalize, Vegas will make out.

Walt

I can see the outcry already Kesti, " But pot is legal!! I demand to keep my job! I know I signed a "drug use policy agreement"! That just ain't right! I got RIGHTS!!" ( and so does the employer)
There are just so many "bottom feeder" jobs. ( employers who don't give a shit)
Count on those good paying jobs to keep out the riff raff. ( or at least give it a good try)
So.. If it was your business, ( you sign the paychecks, pay the insurance, etc.) you want to hire and take responsibility for a "rec" MJ user? Because now it's your reputation as an "upstanding" business that on the line. If an accident happens, and MJ is found to be used,(on the job or not) it's your problem. Good luck getting the insurance co. to pay up.
A little dose of reality to chew on.

Mary Ann

The one thing that I found to be interesting in Yuba County, is that property (as I am involved with the Real Estate Title Business) was commissioned to decipher the real estate data by several members of the Yuba County Realtor's Group which was a study on several different areas, including determining what the results of the open-ended ordinance were from a financial standpoint.

This study took the sales data before Yuba County enacted their recently banned ordinance, looking at property values for 5-40 acre parcels in Yuba County.

It determined that there was an average sales value of 17.4% lower, than for the same category property in Nevada County (this study did not differentiate on improvements or any other issues, but it did divide and average the properties with residences and the unimproved properties as not to skew this data). Nevada County properties are also rising in value as there has been a 2.7% increase in values for 2014 verses 2013.

This study determined that sales price per acre was $11,267 per acre in Yuba County, while Nevada County was $14,345.

Properties in Yuba County typically were on the market for 117 days, and got 14.7% less than asking price, while Nevada County properties were on the market for 47 days, and got 3.4% less than asking price

After the more liberal MMJ ordinance was passed in Yuba County, property values went up dramatically, as there was a almost instant increase in value of $7,945 per acre, and properties that were listed, went from 117 days to 2 days, with most properties being sold as "pocket listings" (where the property never is listed on the market. Properties that did go onto the MLS, were typically sold for 28.4% more than asking price.

This is a dramatic change and because of these increased property values, I calculated that Yuba County will be collecting an additional $7.21 million dollars in property tax revenue.

This was huge change for Yuba County revenue-wise and I am very surprised that in 2012-2013 the had $10.622 million while in 2013-2014 they had income of $11.847 million which is a 10.3% increase in property tax revenue or $1.2 million in additional income, and if you consider that Yuba County stated that it was costing an additional $1 million in enforcement costs it seems to be a complete trade off. http://www.co.yuba.ca.us/departments/cao/

Nevada County had a drop in property tax income after ordinance 2349 was inacted of 3.7% verses the time frame before the 2349 was inacted.

Brad C.

Mary Ann, I wondered what the property sales and value differences were. Thanks for the info.
If Yuba has reversed itself and does not allow outdoor MJ growing, will there be a "bust" following the "boom" in real estate sales and prices? Will those with mortgages on properties that were slated for MJ production be walking away from their loans (if they did not pay in cash)?

Bill  Tozer

Walt, my employer won't change a lick. If I am sitting in a parking lot or stop sign and get rear ended, I am immediately taken in for a piss test at a medical facility. Don't matter who is at fault, I am escorted to the lab instantly and relieved of duties (with pay) until the results are hand delivered by Fed Express. If dirty, I just bought the farm, lose the house, and even this I-pad gizmo. Fired, no appeal. That is the rules and that ain't going to change.
There was a co-worker working farther north who drank a beer somewhere in a styrofoam cup. He threw the cup in the back of the work vehicle. A few days later he got into a accident and tested clean as a baby's behind. However, they found that styrofoam cup with maybe a drop of dried brew still in it and was fired on the spot. Kiss that job goodbye.
I used to take the beer cans left in my humble abode when the kids came by and take them to a poor lady along with my empty water jugs and soda pop cans. I bag them up, put them in the furthers compartment in back of the truck, and drop them off every two weeks or so. She uses that recycle money for gas and she really appreciates it. Now, I deliver the cans and bottles to her in my own personal vehicle. Gas costs me more than what the bag gets her, but that's ok. I like employment so I play by the rules and sleep better at night.

I don't drink booze or toke the wacky zigzag marihuana Indica cigarettes no more. My drug of choice is coffee, cigs, and tweaking libhole's' noses on occasion.
Walt, no company is going to change their zero tolerance policy just because it is legal to drink like an Irishman or smoke like a chimney.
All potential employees are tested. It ain't random and are given several days notice. If one moves up the ladder into management, they are tested. Car accident? You get tested. If someone is acting like an one legged man in a forest fire or crazier than two rats in a sock, two from management must observe the behavior and they may agree or disagree on a test. It's all fair and written down and no surprises.
Walt, you and I and some dear readers know full well some misfortunates that will not even apply for a job at a place that tests and pre-screens applicants. That tells me their non-addictive marihuana hoochie hoochie zigzag cigarettes are more important to them than feeding and clothing their children and providing for the needs of their loved ones.

The courts have said in at least one case that a employee with a doctor's script cannot be compelled to accommodate the worker under the influence of MMJ. The employer must try to accommodate the stoned worker if another position is available that allows one to be under the influence. But if there is no such position, see ya Charlie. Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya.

Michael R. Kesti

Walt 12Feb15 04:40 PM

I didn't say employers don't have rights, Walt. The point, that you apparently prefer to ignore and instead rant about riff raff and bottom feeders, is that those rights are not a valid reason for criminalization. No, I would not want my employees intoxicated while on the clock. What employees do on their own time, however, especially if what they do is legal, is none of employers' business. Is this not the deal you have with your employer? I'm sure that he doesn't want you on the job while under the influence of alcohol but that doesn't mean you cannot drink on your own time, does it?

Brad C.

Bill, tell the guy I am sorry for tossing my party cup in the back of the guy's truck. But it looked so trashy I figured he wouldn't mind. Don't want to be a litterbug.
Seriously, the guy should sue. The cup could be anyone's. Did they find his DNA on the cup?

Bill  Tozer

He said the cup was his, but you first sentence was funny. Maybe if his truck was not so anal retentive clean, they would have never found it. BTW, if one is not in the company vehicle, no drug test. There are a lot of unsolved mysterious dings on the vehicles left in the parking lot. It's a bloody mystery I tell ya. Hoodlums and vandals are running amok. Hooligans and Zoombies must arise out of the dead of night. That is why I always keep an old shovel in the truck. Not work related, but in case of Zoombies. Or snow.

Walt

Well a dooby on Fri. night will make ya' test dirty by the next Thursday.
Good luck proving you weren't stoned anytime in between. ( HAY!,, he was on his off time.. Right?) As I said before. CO. workers getting fired for weed is up 50%. A statistic that our pro dope side doesn't care to publicize or acknowledge, So who is going to buy all that legal weed?
Take Las Vegas, or Reno for instance. Gambling is legal,, but the majority of the residents don't. ( I wonder why?) Their economy is tourist based. Hence all the bells and whistles to drag people in.
The Bay folks won't be coming here. They have plenty of grows of their own.

Since smoking is illegal in ALL establishments, and in MANY parts of town, just where are the "tourists" going to fire up?
Being intoxicated in public will still be illegal,, and weed still will fall into that category. So start printing up those good ol' bumbper stickers. Welcome to Nevada Co. Come on a weed vacation,, and leave on probation.
Damn those pesky consequences. Any stoners think that far ahead on those details?
Funny how dope fogs the mind about that... But HAY!! It's legal.. We might as well start stocking up on extra ambulances to stage on 49 and 20. If you think driving while stoned decreases accidents, your sadly mistaken. ( Scrapped plenty of stoners off the asphalt in my days of fire and rescue.)

Walt

From the Scooper.. See what smoking weed can do?
http://www.ncscooper.com/alta-sierra-man-swears-he-spotted-bigfoot/

" after I dropped the kids off, and smoked some fine North San Juan Ridge Girl Scout Cookie,” continued Mr. Bradenshauer, ” I drove back to Lawrence and Norlene and took several pictures of this creature. It’s totally not a bear or a 9/11 terrorist.”

Count on even more Bigfoot and UFO sightings when the Cheech and Chong act is passed.

Bill  Tozer

Walt and other dear readers. Let's stop the BS about tax revenue or other window dressings. People want to be able to injest Marihuana legally. Period. That is the whole shebang. And people want to grow it, smoke it, and possess it without thinking about being raided.
Real estate values, tax revenues, incarceration rates, and employment zero tolerance polices are side shows. Legalized pot for any reason is the gist of the matter. That is what partakers want. No medical cards, no sweating like a stuffed pig when the police car is in your rear view mirror because of an oz in the glovebox.

It is still too friggin early to tell if retail recreational marijuana is manna from heaven for the state's treasuries. I wish I could see maybe 7-10 years of data on States like CO or WA, before CA legalizes weed for any reason, but like Indian cadinos, states will be legalizing them all over the place before we can truly say it's good, bad, or indifferent.
Here is a link about growing pains, nothing more. Still can't draw definitive conclusions.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/12/colorado-s-pot-revenue-goes-up-in-smoke.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

Walt

Weed is now legal in Alaska ( for the past week or so) Now to see who things go there, other than plenty of stoned, patch raiding Moose.

As for the pro legalize crew,, be careful what ya' wish for. Your tune will change when your own youngster comes home from school stoned to no end. Then tell yourself what a great idea it was.

Bill  Tozer

Walt, my friend. The points brought up are good valid points indeed in case you did not catch my drift. Legal or not, we will still be scraping young kids faces from the pavement, hopefully not more of them. Who knows? Perhaps the 2016 Prop will go down in flames.

WOW!! BREAKING NEWS just came in over the wire. Forget quibbling about pot, this is unbelievable. WOW!!

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/pb.51560645913.-2207520000.1423800677./10152807071460914/?type=3&theater

Patricia Smith

Walt continues to make Chicken Little "what if" comments about what might happen if marijuana is legalized. He ignores the facts that we have coming in from Colorado and Washington. Yes, it's only been a short while to form our judgements, but that is better than baseless speculation.

Again Walt, traffic fatalites are DOWN since marijuana was legalized in Colorado. Violent crime is DOWN - inclding homocides. Employers will be free to determine their hiring and firing policies. Teens use rates have DECLINED. Indeed, countries with liberal drug policies have fewer teens using drugs than countries like ours with harsh penalties for using same.

Bill  Tozer

Perhaps CO traffic fatalities are down because of Global Warming melting icy roads and people staying home in deep depression after the Broncos lost to the Patriots. (Sorry Ms. Smith, I just could not resist). Plus Steamboat Willy Springs and Aspen are picking up a lot of business from skiers who normally hit the slopes in Tahoe.....again, because of the CA drought caused by Global Frying like a Frito.
Paper or plastic? Decisions, decisions. I sure hope Walt is wrong.about teen fatalities. They have enough risk just by being inexperienced and now texting while driving. Adding pot or booze to the mix is a lethal combination, always has been , albeit stoned drivers usually drive way to slow and cause traffic backups.

As one smarter than I posts occasionally on these pages, "Correlation does not always equate to Causation"

Bill  Tozer

More on "potential" traffic fatalities. Where is MADD when we need them? Homeland Security=Politics over Public Safety.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/homeland-security-border-patrol-stop/2015/02/13/id/624787/

Brad C.

Bill, is it politics or budgets driving the policy? Border Patrol agents are not traffic cops.

Bill  Tozer

Yes, Mr. Brad, I agree Border Patrol agents are not traffic cops. They follow orders from pencil pushing political appointees thousands of miles away of where the rubber meets the road. Boy, I would sure feel much safer now if I lived down there and was driving the kids to school. Thank you Homeland Security. Thanks a rock.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GokBgQ1LgDI

Patricia Smith

Something to pause and consider. The very same folks that are clamoring for zero-tolerance for driving under the influence of marijuana are pushing for the same standards for alcohol. Imagine never being able to have a couple of brewskis at a bar while watching a sports event or having a glass of wine at dinner in a restaurant before driving home. Why should the majority of us who imbibe responsibly be punished for the irresponsible minority? Besides, do drinking limits stop problem drinkers from imbibing too much?

Joe Koyote

"I sure hope Walt is wrong.about teen fatalities. They have enough risk just by being inexperienced and now texting while driving. Adding pot or booze to the mix is a lethal combination, always has been "

Actually the most dangerous combination is other teens in the car. Every time you add a teen passenger the chances for an auto accident double due to distractions.

Bill  Tozer

Patricia, I think 2 drinks in an hour puts most people over the legal blood alcohol limit for driving impaired if they left that moment and got pulled over. Much voluminous research and studies on the effects of alcohol on one's motor skills, reaction time, and judgement produced a consensus for the blood alcohol standards.

The blood alcohol limit and no driving under the influence was a national campaign through many years to get drunks off the road. Heck, back in the day I got a slap on the wrists and a small fine. The public outcry, the courts,and law enforcement All got between this popular (at the time) mandate. In a way, MADD was so successful in getting laws changed from sea to shining they actually worked themselves out of a job. Why they don't declare victory and laiyoff their high paid big wigs I have not a clue.

The trap most people fall into is your "a glass of wine" with dinner or a "couple of brewskis" over the length of a sporting event. No problem there. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I said "I only had a couple." Couple of pitchers to get started or a few before I walked into the bar, lol. But I digress.

I could use the same argument about everybody having to stop when a school bus puts on the red flashers. Just one kid got killed, just one of the millions of students when somebody drove around the school bus and hit the kid. Now every driver in CA has to stop when the red flashers go on. Are the responsible drivers now being punished because of one bad apple? You bet your sweet bippey. Is it the law? You bet. Do I like it? It don't matter.

Do drinking laws stop those from guzzling too much? Well, for some, yep. For some one time in handcuffs is enough for them to never drink and drive again as long as they live. Never stopped me, but for most, yep. Sometimes a kick in the rear is one step forward. That is why we have taxis and designated drivers. Taxis and DDs are those who absolutely do not want to stop at a glass or wine or a couple of brewskis and for those who have low tolerance for the bedding at Wayne C Brown Correctional Facility. Their coffee could be better, IMHO.

George Rebane

Re drinking and driving. I wonder what it would cost a drinking establishment to provide regular van service home for their customers. The drinker simply leaves his car there and picks it up the next day (via same van service?). Also, such approaches to safety would be much easier to implement if government made it easy to run jitney services. And also, such 'safe drinkers transport' services could become a business unto itself, and hired regularly by several bars, parties,..., drinking events to drive their inebriated attendees home. Just a thought.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 14 February 2015 at 11:12 AM


I did that as a matter of course for several years when i owned a restaurant and bat George. It was an interesting experiment.

It was amazingly cost effective: I hired the local cab company on certain nights and said, 'drive my patrons home at $5 a carload (it was the 90's) within the city limits and I will keep you busy half the night...you can still take your regular fares and double you money.' I built loyalty, my patrons lived to celebrate another day, and the cabbie made out like a bandit.

But the problem I ran into was the other bar owners on the street, who protested that setting this precedent was anti-competitive. If I did it they would HAVE to do it. I was cutting into their profits. Word got out, go to Steve's for your last calls and you get a free ride home. I was warned by 2 or 3 competitors that I was stealing their customers and that there would be consequences...of course I knew that, I was in business to steal their customers...I provided a better product at lower risk...silly me.

It is still a good business opportunity...perhaps it is called Uber, Lyft; it would be a great niche market for a hearty 20 something.

Brad C.

Uber, anyone?

George Rebane

StevenF 1128am - Good report. Yes, I thought of Uber and Lyft, but not sure that in the NC/GV area there would be critical mass to attract those franchises. But your experience initiating such a service is valuable and, IMHO, bears re-examination. I agree with you that your competitors were out of line in their implied threats to you and your business, after all having such good ideas in extending customer services is the sum and stuff of capitalism.

Do you think that NC/GV watering holes and restaurants could go in together and establish a co-op van service along the lines that I described in my 1112am (and you successfully implemented some form of it)? Now I wasn't thinking of it as a free service, but if it's sponsored as co-op, maybe it could be gratis (or prepaid through a small bump in drink prices). The point being that if a group of businesses did this and publicized it, then the onus of 'stealing customers' could not even enter the discussion. Thoughts?

Steven Frisch

Re: George Rebane | 14 February 2015 at 11:51 AM

I did kind of try to 'co-op' it George; I asked my fellow business owners to support such an effort jointly for major events like New Years Eve, Halloween, the Super Bowl, 4th of July, etc. No dice....they were afraid that supporting a ride service would imply liability which I thought was kind of ridiculous.

My experience was that subsidizing it myself was definitely worth it on certain dates....I had more customers and the increase in volume more than offset the cost...and the cabbie made great tips...tipsy people either overtip or stiff you. Frankly I think in a town like GV/NC or Truckee a person could create this niche and become a trusted friend, much like a bartender.

One problem was that it was when people had one or two too many that they were most receptive...people who were drunk were much less receptive...and getting to their car in the morning is a must.

Some cities have been experimenting with free shuttle service on nights when people go big, Truckee did one last New Years Eve and the next morning...it would be interesting to look at the numbers in places where this has been tried over a period of several years.

Steven Frisch

Oh, and I do use Uber for this when I am in the City exercising my God given right to have 'San Francisco values' :)

Gregory

Look what the rat dragged in. Steve, if paying for rides home worked so well stealing away customers, why the payroll witholding tax fraud and bankruptcy? 'Frisco values?


Not getting drunk really reduces DUI incidence... it's worked so far for me. How about you, Steve?

George Rebane

Gregory 141pm - Now I thought we had a productive conversation going here and everyone was behaving themselves. We all have put burrs under each others blankets, but perhaps we can ignore them when opportunity presents itself and welcome the return of civility?

Gregory

Brad C, Uber's great but we apparently just don't have the population density they want to see.

George, I think Nevada County restaurants and pubs should probably attend to being the best restaurant or pub they can and leave it to others to handle transportation problems, and not burden patrons who don't DWI with the costs of those who do.

George Rebane

Gregory 219pm - point well taken, but this is not a perfect world and the DUI problem persists. Do you see any harm in establishments joining to provide such a service that would increase the likelihood that more tipsy people would use their own cars to go home?

Gregory

George, Frisch's "San Francisco values" comment here was obviously intended to futher a snotty comment of his over at Crabb's on the thread by the same name; I have no doubt it was intended as a dig at just one of his favored targets.

Any transportation paid for by restaurants and pubs will be subsidized by patrons who don't need it, and could be expected to drive those folks away, both by prices and the clientèle it attracts. That it hasn't become popular probably attests to the inefficiency of it.

Uber is great for getting home after barhopping, and extending the range between bar hops.

Steven Frisch

Greg Goodnight, you prove every day what a class act you are. No one asked you to chime in and no one was talking to you.

No 'extension' of anything at Bob's place--the term has been going around a while I think--it was a bit of a self deprecating joke, you boob.

And yes, I once had a DUI and owed a lot of money in taxes, but guess what asshole, it is not fraud if you don't hide it and I paid back every single red cent over the next 8 years. Kind of like a responsible adult, unlike some people we know.

Plus, I ain't running for saint and never claimed to be one....and like almost every one else in Nevada County don't give a shit what you think.

By the way, what kind of psuedo-libertarian nonsense is that statement that, "transportation..paid for by the restaurant will be subsidized by patrons who don't need it."
If you were really a free market guy you would realize that as a business owner one can 'subsidize' whatever the hell they want to; a guy buys dinner I get to spend the money as I please, that is what a free market means.

But then I would not expect you to be consistent when you have a hard on for attacking people personally. Any excuse will do.


Steven Frisch

Oh yeah Goodnight, you want to point to the "further a snotty comment of his over at Crabb's on the thread by the same name"

http://www.rlcrabb.com/culture-2/san-francisco-values/#comments

Never talked to you there, never referenced you there, never joined a portion of the thread you were on, and intentionally avoided you. Seems to me Bob and I had a nice conversation over there and you brought your bull over here because you know Bob would have thrown you out for doing it there.

You are one crazy, mean, nasty nice of work.

Steven Frisch

You are one crazy, mean, nasty piece of work.

Todd Juvinall

Bartender picks up phone, calls cab company. Problem solved.

Gregory

Steve, it ain't a "pseudo-libertarian" concept, it's economics... I'm going to guess your accountant deducted the cost of those transportation 'gifts' just as any other business expense.

Once again you threw the first punch and then complain your target hit back... if you didn't give a s*** you'd not have thrown another tantrum.

It may not be what you were charged with wasn't called a tax fraud but it's my understanding that's the catch all term used by the IRS:
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Employment-Tax-Evasion-Criminal-Investigation-%28CI%29

Think maybe you aren't the best source of economic advice for restauranteurs?

Gregory

"FYI–a fun little list of nicknames–I may start calling SF “The Golden City” just to bug people", chronologically appearing on the Values thread after I'd made it clear I thought "The City" was pretentious. The chances you weren't picking a target then are vanishingly small, stevie.

I once got a lecture from a newbie to the area for calling 'Frisco by another Herb Caen label... Baghdad by the Bay. They were so primed to dress down someone for calling it by the internationally known diminutive that they didn't recognize an alternate coined by the same guy who made the F word uncool, for a time. It does appear it's coming back.

Steven Frisch

I was having a discussion with George because I thought the question was interesting, you jumped in...end of story. I did not "throw first punch."

By the way, if you read the list of nicknames I included "the City" and "The Golden City" were clearly two different nicknames with two different origins.

You are a certified Grade A asshole Mr. Goodnight.

Gregory

Yes Steve, I jumped into your public conversation because you were making poor sense, economically speaking, had shown poor money management skills in the past and obviously had a bee under your bonnet over The City and "San Francisco values", both of which you managed to mention out of the blue here:

"Oh, and I do use Uber for this when I am in the City exercising my God given right to have 'San Francisco values' :)"

Bill  Tozer

Took me over 6 years to pay my back taxes. I even once stopped payment on a check to the IRS. They displayed little sense of humor over that caper, but got over it in a nice civil way, pun intended. They sure are willing to work with ya since Bill Clinton indeed came up with the kinder easier IRS. They even called me personally just to see how I was doing.....before getting down to dollars and cents, The Franshice Tax Board.....well, that is a whole different ballgame. I always tell folks you can mess with the IRS for awhile, but them State collectors are some real pain in the butts and a bunch of certified meanies.
But, that is not even scratching the surface of my indiscretions. I could only wish at one time that being called a tax fraud was the worse thing someone could pin on me. Ha!, that would have been a vast improvement. Moving up in the world.
Yes, it's all about me and nobody asked me to butt in. Hey, you can't shame a recovering sociopath...or did they call me a physcopath....can't remember, but them arrogant smug head hunter doctors sure got into a heated debate which label was the more accurate concerning Moi. Dummies. They got so involved in their pissing match that they did not notice the jar was ajar and I made my escape. Wish I could have seen their faces.
As they say, he who has the last laugh laughs best. Carry on. I got some hand digging to do......getting ready to plant more pretty flowers as Spring be a coming soon.

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