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« Scattershots – 7aug17 (updated 9aug17) | Main | Our ERC gets dunned, again »

10 August 2017

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ScenesFromTheApocalypse

"And George, your perception of what Estonians endure is a perfect living example of what I am talking about."

With a little googling, the Estonians have had some public arguments about statues and a bit of warehousing on the more egregious Soviet ones, but I'd say his point is just as much that 1/3 of the population would be miffed if their statues go away. Read into it what you like though.

It looks to me like 51% of the population (or, failing that, any group with sufficient political mojo) gets to own the public space. Every time that group changes, tear down everything you find objectionable.

You do end up with peculiar situations though. Take cases like famous Apaches. Probably the best light cavalry in history, swoop down on Pueblo tribes, Mexican towns, US settlers for pillaging, the odd bit of prisoner torture and slave raiding, basically treating the rest of the world as prey animals. But, they do have excellent PR and thus get good monuments here and there with no muss no fuss.

Just to avoid the uproar, maybe the thing to do is to move to a world where absolutely everyone has the power of veto. Every tax dollar, every bit of public space, a simple vote on the internet allows an individual to remove something. I rather like the idea.

Bill Tozer

Crabb:
I get your point. But, let's look at the linguistics of your proposal......

Who pays for the museum? Is one available? Does a building have to be constructed to house the statue of General Robert E. Lee? How much will the property and fire insurance cost each year? The groundskeepers? Guess the taxpayers are on the hook for that one...unless the Daughters of the Confederacy have a building tucked away somewhere. Or some American Historical Society will take the General Lee and place him in a replica of The Dukes of Hazzard TV series set, right next to The General Lee, the '69 Dodge Challenger. Wonder if there is a statue somewhere of Boss Hogg, but I degrees.

On another practical matter, what about Democrat George Wallace"s political party, the third largest political party in our state, The Golden State? You have to admit it was hilarious (with our new rules on who is eligible to vote in the primaries in CA in 2016), watching thousands upon thousands of millennials, independents ,and non-afflilated folks registering to vote as independent minded thinkers choosing the American Independent Party, only to find out that they registered as members of George Wallace's Party, ROFLMAO.
http://static.latimes.com/american-independent-history/

What about The George Wallace Tunnel on Interstate 10 which runs underneath Mobile, Alabama is named in his honor? Blow it up or put in in a big honking museum? Nah, just pulling your leg. Put half the tunnel in a museum, and the other half leave it be. The King Solomon solution.

Some statues should be taken down simply because of the cost of security of maintaining them. That statue of Klansman Robert Byrd (D) is the location of numerous arrests and citations, mostly around midnight. There is something about the statue of the former Senate Majority Leader, former Senate Minority Leader, former President pro tempore of the US Senate that make folks scale Byrd's statute and throw sheets on its head. Very odd indeed. The cops surely have better things to do than repeatedly remove linens from a public monument, ROFLMAO. Put it in a museum that is locked tight at night.

"Byrd led the Democratic caucus in numerous roles depending on whether his party held control of the Senate, including Senate Majority Leader, Senate Minority Leader, President pro tempore of the United States Senate and President pro tempore emeritus.[7] As President pro tempore—a position he held four times in his career—he was third in the line of presidential succession, after the Vice President and the Speaker of the House."

And on and on it goes, where it stops nobody knows.

Psst, Crabman. You didn't registrar to vote as a member of the American Independent Party, did ya? I didn't think so. Nobody I know is that stupid. Chao.

Todd Juvinall

Crabb is always right about everything, did you miss that? And the whitest county in California attracts a lot of these racial equality warriors. All white.

George Rebane

scenes 614am - The Soviets not only tore down all monuments memorializing the Estonian Revolution against Bolshevism (communism), but also executed and shipped to the gulag tens of thousands of Estonians. The same happened in Latvia and Lithuania.

The main Russian enclave in Estonia is in the NE of the country around the border city of Narva. Russian is the predominant language there.

Given what's now going on in the lamestream media suddenly discovering violent protests, we should probably do a thorough and dedicated airing of what today is being protested by whom and how. And then how the whole thing is reported.

Bill Tozer

FYI, The legacy of Robert E. Lee continues to this day, whether we like it or not. Darn near every Military College studies General Lee's brilliant tactics to instruct future and current officers. Lee was a fantastic military strategist for defensive manuvers. Not so much when it came to offensive strategy. :)

ScenesFromTheApocalypse

re: GeorgeR@8:03AM

Since you're handy, and have first person experience, what about Czarist monuments after the post-WWI War of Independence? It's probably too hard to suss out what happened to Swedish monuments when the Russians showed up. Given the propensity for equestrian statues, I'd expect that there were a few. Sometimes it's hard to keep the players straight.

I have to admit that a map like this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5wBftHUwAIYCx8.jpg

fairly shouts out for a few border adjustments, but sovereign nations dearly hate to do that. lol, of course you could make the same case for Los Angeles.

From that map, I can see where the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn might have had some backers.

ScenesFromTheApocalypse

re: BillT@8:04

The US Civil War strikes me as typical for post-Napoleonic wars in that the generals didn't grasp the technologies until late in the game. Genius appears to be as much luck as planning.

The greater point is asking what mistakes are being made currently? Especially in long term planning and weapons design. There'll always be one too many generations of manned plane, ship types, some form of doctrine. It's not an area I'm expert in, but I'm certainly affected by the decisions made.

Gregory

Earl, you're the one who had to paint Confederates as akin to Mussolini and Hitler to justify erasing them from history, outside of museums where the victors could control the message. I'm not the inheritor of past wrongs in this case; I don't have family that I'm aware of who were Confederate sympathizers. And I'm not a Confederate sympathizer either, or any sort of Republican or conservative. The further to the left someone is, however, the less that someone can tell the difference between someone who thinks Democratic Party BS stinks and someone who loves the GOP. Earl, I gather that includes you.

Yes, we should remember the Democrats George Wallace, Lester Maddox, Strom Thurmond (who turned GOP in the 60's) and the late KKK Grand Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops himself, Senator Robert Byrd, were all assholes, as were many of their supporters.

It appears the trigger for the homicidal rage was a rock was thrown at the car driven by the 20 year old and that should probably be enough to keep the driver from being found guilty of capital 1st degree murder... it takes a special idiocy to demolish your car and your life because of a rage started by a dent to your automotive pride and joy. And on separate news, a judge has issued a six month stay of the order to remove the statue.

Gregory

Earl, you're the one who had to paint Confederates as akin to Mussolini and Hitler to justify erasing them from history, outside of museums where the victors could control the message. I'm not the inheritor of past wrongs in this case; I don't have family that I'm aware of who were Confederate sympathizers. And I'm not a Confederate sympathizer either, or any sort of Republican or conservative. The further to the left someone is, however, the less that someone can tell the difference between someone who thinks Democratic Party BS stinks and someone who loves the GOP. Earl, I gather that includes you.

Yes, we should remember the Democrats George Wallace, Lester Maddox, Strom Thurmond (who turned GOP in the 60's) and the late KKK Grand Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops himself, Senator Robert Byrd, were all assholes, as were many of their supporters.

It appears the trigger for the homicidal rage was a rock was thrown at the car driven by the 20 year old and that should probably be enough to keep the driver from being found guilty of capital 1st degree murder... it takes a special idiocy to demolish your car and your life because of a rage started by a dent to your automotive pride and joy. And on separate news, a judge has issued a six month stay of the order to remove the statue.

fish

".....SHUT UP....I'm being interviewed!!


- Jimmy Rabbitt - The Commitments 1991


Steve Frisch says:

August 13, 2017 at 7:58 am

There are so many layers to this that need to be addressed. But relative to Chip’s comment, one of them is that Nazi and white supremacist protesters were allowed to march in the streets carrying guns and carrying torches while clashing with counter protesters. I watched a lot of video of yesterday and frankly the amount of firepower in the hands of the public was astounding. Did some of the counter protesters carry guns? I bet some did. Americas open and concealed carry laws have gone to the point that they inhibit law enforcement and keeping the peace in incidents like this. Should the police have waded in and arrested people who were beating each other up. Absolutely. But could they? I am not so sure that we would not have seen a much worse incident yesterday if they had. Think the Grensboro massacre in 1979.

This is exactly the type of chaos the alt-right wants to create, which they believe will trigger the race war that will finally divide America, and that many in our own community celebrate in their own very well schooled propagandistic way as “the Great Divide.”



I have said on occasion that it's impossible for Mr. Frisch to put fingers to keyboard without imagining himself striding purposefully to the stage and taking the lectern prior to addressing an audience full of students....all hungering for him to impart his brand of progressive wisdom to the assembled.

I admit now that I was wrong in my assessment!

Today I'm sure he saw himself at the big round table with Chuck Rose imparting his brand of progressive wisdom to the whole world.

Oh that and somebody named John Stoos rolling over and exposing his belly while furiously disassociating himself from a movement that he clearly has nothing to do with.....the very definition of virtue signaling!


Just another Sunday @ jeffys.......

ScenesFromTheApocalypse

re: Gregory@8:41AM

The Dodge Challenger through history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqpJvey-7-s

I'll wait to pass judgement on the guy in Charlottesville until the actual news percolates through. A confusing situation as usual, although the alt-right and related groups does appear to be ramping up.

fish

Posted by: Gregory | 13 August 2017 at 08:41 AM

And on separate news, a judge has issued a six month stay of the order to remove the statue.


Saw elsewhere that Historys Killers probably would have gotten away with removing Beauregard and some of the others! When they took after Lee it was bound to get ugly!

Todd Juvinall

What the people forget, the ones that want to indoctrinate, in this case the left and the black activist is removing symbols is a no-no to them. And while the people in New Orleans sat by and let them remove theirs., others will not. People like causes and sometimes they have to bonk others on the head to make them pay attention.

Walt

Yaa.. "all those guns".. Anyone hear of people being shot? (nope)
But make fED case about them nonetheless.

Walt

I should have known Berkeley would feel left out.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/hundreds-protest-in-oakland-over-deadly-virginia-rally/

Bill Tozer

You know, it is a waste of time to play this game of two wrongs. Remember the pre-Trump months when any critique of Obama was met with a furious response of "Bush did it, too!" from that particular Green Libertarian, formerly of the Democrat People's Republic Party. Jumped in and tried mightily to hijack and current topic of discussion by screaming at the top of his scarred tissue lungs, "Bush did it too." Thank goodness he has replaced Bush Derangement Syndrome with something else. That got old.

Remember that CA Republican state legislator a few years back running in some district against an Asian opponent saying "Two wongs don't make a white."? Well, he got pubilcally spanked for that crack, as well as he should of. What an asshat.. Lost the reelection. Good.
I mention this to show how our progress has been happening for a long time, not just recently, nor did it begin in the 60's counter culture movement. Big and small ways. A bloody bloody bloody Civil War to pulling someone aside and telling them to take that kind of talk outside. I personally believe Woodrow Wilson was our most racist President in modern times, but it is a waste of time to go there. Heck, Ike was dug up just yesterday. I keep waiting for someone to go off the rails hollering about the corruption in the Grant Admissistration or the Teapot Dome scandal, but it's not to be.
Now, the question remains. Is BLM more racist than the Klan, the same, or less? Must not go there.

Fun facts:
White Nationalists (which I am not just in case you were wondering why I bring this up), believe according to what I have read by its members on-line,....do not believe one race is superior to another race. Period. They believe in segregation of races. Whites have their place to live, blacks have there own place to do with as they may, Latinos have their... Same as certain Black groups, akin to the Black Nationalists. Yes, there are groups both in the white community and black community and the Latino community (La Raza comes to mind) that believe they are superior to other races, the very definition of racism. A White Supremacist believes the superiority of one race over another, not to be confused with a White Nationalist, FYI. Bigotry is another subject.

Its a dark side of human nature and it is quite an universal trait found in many groups across the globe. Islamics believe strongly in the Supremacy of Islam. Heck, my tribe believed that we are human and whites were not yet human. Sort of subhuman, haven't evolved to the status of human. Not a human if you prefer. The term is non-human.

So, one more time with the game of "He did it too!" Won't solve a thing, but it is so fun for a brief moment in time. Where's the outrage?????????????

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1148075931993109/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.254420818025296.63999.217926015008110/1148060728661296/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.254420818025296.63999.217926015008110/1147710875362948/?type=3&theater

This one I got to give Antifa kudos for. Ok, just kidding

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/12/female-reporter-for-the-hill-allegedly-punched-by-antifa-protester-in-charlottesville/

All BS aside, this is how I really feel:

1)
.https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1148141388653230/?type=3&theater

2). https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1148080608659308/?type=3&theater

Paul Emery

Todd

I believe it was the Charlottesville's decision to take down the statue and it was mostly outside white supremacist groups that cane to town to protest. I thought you believed in local control? The local Republican party spoke out about the racist hate groups that sponsored the protest. Why won't Trump?

"Erich Reimer, the chair of the Charlottesville Republican Party, said the “intolerance and hatred they seek to promote is utterly disgusting and disturbing beyond words.”

Todd Juvinall

Paul Emery, you still insist on putting words in other people's mouths.

I have not seen the "white supremacist" organizations listed. Anyone have that?

What is interesting to me is the juxtaposition of the "antifa" thugs and the media's treatment of tem versus the so-called WS in Virginia.

Todd Juvinall

I saw this today and it looks like I agree with it totally.

"First, to the Nazi and white supremacist losers marching around with tiki torches and throwing the Nazi salute: I condemn everything you stand for, everything you align yourself with, everything you say, everything you believe, everything you do. You call this rally “Unite the Right,” but you are not a member of anything that even resembles the conservative cause I have spent my life fighting for. You are the bastard children of a cancerous movement our country defeated on the battlefield 70 years ago. The last vestiges of it died on the noose at Nuremberg, praise be to God. Nazism was sent to Hell, where it belongs, and you will join it there if you do not repent."

Walt

LIBS can beat the hell out of each other for all I care. It's the destruction of history that's the real crime.
The people on both sides of this fight are LIBS. Now figure out just who is more radical then the next.

Paul Emery

One White Supremist groups that participated in the protest is the League of the South led by Michael Hill. Here's from their website "The League of the South will be participating in the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, on 12 August.

Identifying himself as neither “racist” or a “xenophobe,” Hill continues his July 4 rant by explaining that “Southern people” are “white people… of European descent, who are committed to preserving a kith and kin, blood and soil nation on the lands bequeather by our ancestors who settled this area from the 17th century onward.”


So African Americans dumped here as slaves are not "Southern People" in Hills eyes,
I'm surprised you support this ilk Todd.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/black-people-are-not-equal-this-is-how-the-league-of-the-south-recruits-a-new-generation-on-the-web/

Bill Tozer

The driver is a 20 year old who just moved from Florence, Kentucky to Ohio, according to his mom. 20 year old kid. Frontal lobe not fully developed yet. Not an excuse, but adding context.

Why, why, why is Trump not condemning the Y-T's?? How many statements does he have to make? Condemning violence in general and both sides in particular, is just not good enough, is it, biased fakenewsman? What, not what YOU wanted to hear? Not the right words? Not slamming one side only? Let's rush to judgement!

“We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides, on many sides,” he said.

“Above all, we must remember this truth, no matter our color, creed, religion or political party, we are all Americans first,” he added.

In related news, where is the condemnation by Obama?? He was President at the time!

http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/09/29/black-lives-matter-mob-chases-beats-white-man-wearing-maga-hat/

Oh, the game of two Wongs don't make a White continues......... I prefer this narrative:

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/902906799859543/?type=3&theater

I knew he contributed to John McCain in 2016 and Johnnie accepted the cash, but all these others as well? Just kidding, I knew about them as well. Makes perfect sense.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/06/records-soros-fund-execs-funded-paul-ryan-marco-rubio-jeb-bush-john-mccain-john-kasich-lindsey-graham-in-2016/

Oh no. Not another week of sermonizing on how we should feel so bad. I feel bad for the two State troopers who lost their lives doing their jobs. The rest, not so much. Everybody was looking for a fight and they had one. The silver lining is the largest group of skinheads, beer bellied Ilanmen, and White Supremists assembled in ten years only numbered hundreds. Hundreds, not thousands. Hundreds...from many locales and states. Just hundreds is all they could muster. Probably that is all they number combining many states, including the no-shows. The counter demonstrators also numbered only hundreds, not thousands. Everybody else had the good sense to stay away. Hardly a show of strength by either side. Sad that the troopers lost their lives. The real tragedy. They were forced to be there, but it's their job.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/899514873532069/?type=3&theater


Walt

Paul. Just because some Blacks find statues offencive, is no reason to tear them down.
What about those who find rainbow flags offencive?(Tough cookies?) The smell of dope is offencive.( I have rights ya' know!)

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