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« ‘Are We Free to Discuss America’s Real Problems?’ | Main | Scattershots – 20feb18 »

19 February 2018

Comments

Walt

However, recent statistics from 2016 show that knives actually kill nearly five times as many people as rifles that year.

According to the FBI, 1,604 people were killed by “knives and cutting instruments” and 374 were killed by “rifles” in 2016.

Not that it matters a tinkers damn.

Todd Juvinall

15-17 to Paris. Of course, no one in Europe can own a gun I guess. But who has them? Terrorists. So while the terrorists are shooting and killing the people must wait for the cops. On that train, the terrorist had an AK-47 and a pistol and a box cutter. The others had nothing except their courage. And they took him down. Thank goodness his AK misfired. So as the terrorists are killing everyone we can be emboldened that the police will be there soon.

Todd Juvinall

There are 20,000 laws of gun control. There are more than that for murder. There are thousands of laws on driving a car. Yet people still break them all. So it appears to me that perhaps enforcing the existing laws might help. Heck we have thousands of laws for legal immigration yet millions sneak into America every year. Sorry, more laws are not necessary.

George Rebane

And we have to remember, that for all the good the countless laws do, the system utterly failed against the Parkland shooter. Where is the outcry to remedy the FBI and/or hold its staff accountable? Does the lamestream care? Shouldn't we start by enforcing existing laws and implementing existing LE procedures before passing more gun laws? It would useful if someone published a list of all the laws, codes, procedures, and ordinances that were violated in the case of the Parkland shooter.

Todd Juvinall

You should get over to the Union article by Becky Goodwin on guns and make some comments.

Bill Tozer

Before we can even have any rational dialogue about guns, we would have to educate half the population what a gun is. That wacko on CNN (or was it MSNBC) thought the criminal MS-13 gang was an assault rifle. MS-13 and AR-15 sound Linda alike, right?Need I say more? I will anyway.

Semi-automatic! Scary! Boo! Newsflash: unless you got an old cowboy peace keeper six shoot revolver, all hand guns are semi-automatic. “Ok, I will stop”, he says rolling his eyes at being lectured by those who have never fired a gun in their lives.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1261332074000827/?type=3&theater

Ok, combine the above with school shootings. Add emotion. Stir well the result of the Lefties’ cultural carnage.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1261105724023462/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1261332074000827/?type=3&theater

George Rebane

re ToddJ 1252pm - Someone should teach Becky Goodwin about guns and how long we have had such "rapid firing" arms in the hands of the public. We have had them for a hundred years, and all of us kids had them and carried them in our cars, but no one went on a shooting rampage in a school or elsewhere. The guns are the same, the only thing that has changed is the Left's destruction of our culture. And that beat goes on until they have every facet of our lives controlled by some code or computer. It's never been the guns.

Scenes

Given the cosmetic angle to all of this, it would be fun to get people to denounce the CMMG muzzle loading AR15.

Honestly, everyone has heard all the arguments before. Minor tiffs will break out because some well-intentioned person will misuse the word 'clip' or 'assault rifle'.

The real goal, of course, is to confiscate 100% of firearms. Given that so many of them are functionally identical, it's kind of an all or nothing situation. In the meantime, you can pretend to cut deals by allowing for new 'common sense' gun laws. Perhaps the underlying problem is simply that a heterogeneous population, with badly behaved subgroups, aren't responsible enough for dangerous items.

I think maybe I'll push for this with another angle, rewrite the 2nd amendment (2.1 amendment) so that only property owners are allowed to possess firearms unless they are part of the police or military. If it were possible to enforce that, it would probably de-arm 99% of the folks who use guns in an improper manner.

fish

Democrats know that further gun control is really a dead letter at this point.....every time they push it they get trounced at the polls and most people know that their enforcement is pretty much toothless at this point!

It's good to fundraise off of though..... which is why you'll be seeing it lots of earnest democrats looking stern and determined for the next couple of months until there's another shiny object dangled that distracts them!

Robert Cross

"However, the peasant children can serve a far more useful role for the elites as pawns – to sacrifice in their schools, or parade for the press where they can influence the country’s neurochallenged,"--- that would be those people who continue to espouse NRA talking points.

"specifically the AR-15 variants. Never mind that this gun is rarely used by criminals". nope.. just mass murderers.

"The gun control issue, along with several others ..... was and always will be about the new world order under control of the elites. " Yep, and their stock portfolios love mass murder. Every time some nutcase murders a bunch of men, women, and children gun stocks go up because gun sales go up. It is a vicious spiral. Gun proponents have recently suggested arming teachers. Teachers' jobs are to teach. Students' jobs are to learn. The NRA's job is to sell guns. This is an oil and water argument. How can kids learn when they know at any time some crazed individual can walk in and end their lives? As for the bullshit argument about "just enforce the laws we have," the fact show that most of the mass murderers purchased their weapons legally. It is not about laws, it about the lack of laws. The AR-15 variants are not hunting rifles, they are designed to kill human beings. And have no use in a civilian capacity.

The argument that without civilians owning assault type rifles our nation is subject to 'tyrannical autocracies' is neurochallenged at best.. In the age of drones, cruise missiles, spy satellites, internet spying, and surveillance cameras everywhere, anyone who thinks armed resistance by random hodge-podge bunches of self-proclaimed citizen soldiers armed with popguns has any chance of succeeding beyond suicide, is out of their mind and probably shouldn't be allowed to own gun in the first place.

The real solution to the mass murders that occur in America more often than any other place in the world not involved in military conflict is exemplified in Australia's gun laws. Mass murder is no longer an issue. In Australia, people aren't walking into schools and murdering anyone who happens to be there. Search it out on the internet and see for yourself. They solved the problem.

Our gun problem is insane and it needs to stop now and 'sending out prayers and condolences" to the families of the victims simply isn't enough. This drastic problem will not go away without drastic solutions. So you have to ask yourselves what is more important, innocent lives or someone having to 'pry your gun out of your cold dead hands.' Do you really need an assault rifle that badly?

George Rebane

RobertC 131pm - You are ignoring or dismissing the Founders' purpose for including the Second Amendment. I think we know what your interpretation is, but it would be good to expand on it here. Also, in the grand scheme of things, what is your definition of your "drastic problem"; what are the numbers connected with such a problem?

Walt

Where did that paste job originate from Bob?

Yes, yes I DO need the AR. It's a fine weapon. If the bad guys have them, I care to have matching firepower, if not better.
If your even allowed to own a gun, make sure it's a muzzle loader. Better make that one shot count.

Bill Tozer

Oh Bobbie, yes! You got it right. Ding, ding, ding. You got the brass ring for that one.

"The gun control issue, along with several others ..... was and always will be about the new world order under control of the elites. "

Yes! You are catching on. Here is the proof. Spot on.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/1001827146634174/?type=3&theater

A well regulated milia practices gun control. Some of use practice control by using both hands to aim.

Congress shall pass no law...


https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/1001827146634174/?type=3&theater

Todd Juvinall

I think all these lbs forget what happened just a few years ago. In the USSR and 1930-40's Germany. 100 million people gob=ne as the on;y people with guns were the governments. And of course, the government knows best as the liberals all say.

Gregory

Golly, Cross, to really mass murder, commandeer an air transport. Or a nation.

Be sure to be clear to your candidates in November, Cross... you want gun confiscations which was the Australian solution.

If that's to be the Democratic Party platform, so be it.

Bill Tozer

Bobbie!!!

“Do you really need an assault rifle that badly?”, ROFLMAO. Already heard that one word for word get demolished this morning. Try another angle instead of talking points fresh off the press. Try lecturing me about the children as you promote killing the unborn. Yeah, I feel your pain.. What? 500 million clamshells isn’t enough for Planned Parenthood’s Government budget this year?

The 2nd Amendment is what makes America so exceptional. Just last week they were saying Trump is Hilter. This week they are saying turn your guns over to Hilter. I do declare.

Bill Tozer

Until a gun gets off the ground and start walking around all by it’s lonesome, I will continue to say it’s not the guns, it’s the culture.

“As always, leftists want to restrict the entire conversation to gun control. And as always, none of them can name a single new law that would prevent a tragedy like this.

What might? Ramping down leftist hate. Ever since the election, those who profess to own the franchise on tolerance have not only been utterly deranged, but increasingly proud of being so.”

https://patriotpost.us/articles/54222-its-the-culture-not-the-guns

Walt

OK Lefties,, the time is now to act. Pass the law banning weapons the leave no trace of a crime. You know, like a phaser from Star Trek. Call it what you want.
We have lasers today, that can make you disappear like D.B. Cooper. They are only getting smaller. ( The first working machine gun was the Gatling gun. Remember how big that is?)
Come on now,, use your tried and true argument. " The founding Fathers never envisioned yada yada yada,......"
Ban something before it exists. ( Like killer robots that can think for themselves)

Paul Emery

George

The tragic numbers of deaths to school children are the very definition of a"drastic problem." It's sad that I even have to point that out.

George Rebane

PaulE 436pm - And I'm sad that you didn't understand my 1139pm question.

Bill Tozer

So are drug deaths, Punchy. Outlaw opiates and street drugs that kill more each year, each month, each day. Prohibition works, right? Just say no works like a charm, eh?

Paul Emery

You were asking Robert C for his definition of a "drastic problem" in relation to gun use. I gave you mine. If the slaughter of innocent children by crazed people with guns is not a drastic problem to you let me know and we'll go from there.

Scenes

re: RobertCross @ 1:31

You may feel a strong need to disarm the population due to stuff that you saw on TV, but I think you really need to rethink your analysis of the power relationships in the NRA. Here's my take:

The NRA is a relatively minor player in terms of political contributions (something like $20M / year) and is way way smaller than the big players in that world. OTOH, the NRA is not run by the gun companies and gun company profits are not a huge political issue (or bankruptcies in the case of Remington). It makes for a good story, but really isn't true.

As a practical matter, the NRA is just the most visible outlet for a biggish chunk of the US population, and those people can be largely single-issue voters when it's called for. That's the real power in all of this. The NRA lobbyists' calls get returned (mostly) because of the votes they can deliver.

Anyhow, as I said, firearms are fungible enough that there's no point in restricting certain families of design. To get the result you are shooting for, you would either need to outlaw all firearms, or restrict them to a formula of antique guns (single action revolvers, single shot rifles, break action shotguns, and the like).

Bill Tozer

....the country would be a safer place if we could just prohibit Democrats and liberals from owning or even carrying a firearm. Unfortunately, the Constitution does not allow for such a sane measure.


https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/1002623883221167/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/1002612966555592/?type=3&theater


George Rebane

PaulE 450pm - Let me try to clarify Paul. In the 2003-14 interval there have been 1,353 people killed in school transportation involved accidents, and hundreds more since then according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. No one is talking about this going on year after year; all these tragic deaths have been swept under the rug. How long must this slaughter go on, and when are we going to do something about it?

Don Bessee

Here are the 2015 causes of death, the po' ol' fakenewsman should focus on driver training if he wants to really save some lives-

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_age_group_2015_1050w740h.gif

;-)

Bill Tozer

Guess banning bump stocks did not work. Take an AR-15 and throw a wooden stock on it and presto!, you done turned it into a hunting rifle.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/1002087756608113/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1261336184000416/?type=3&theater

Scott Obermuller

George at 4:56 - Stop using facts and reason. We're talking about an opportunity to start pissing off the NRA and conservatives. You clearly didn't get the memo.
This is about hysteria, emotion and most important of all - feeling good about ourselves.

George Rebane

PaulE 450pm - DonB 459pm brings up an even more 'drastic problem'. Every year more than 2,000 teens are killed in traffic accidents they caused, and which could have been prevented. That's orders of magnitude more than die annually in preventable (see the Israeli and elitists' solution) school shootings by mentally disturbed kids. If saving kids lives were your real concern Paul, you would have been addressing totally different problems with young people of that age. What conclusion should one then draw when all you progressives immediately go for gun confiscation as the solution when another preventable school shooting takes place? I've already given my answer in my commentary; looking forward to hearing yours.

Scenes

ScottO: "This is about hysteria, emotion ..."

C'est la vie.

It's the same reason we can't buy suppressors even though they make a lot of sense for various reasons. The moms are all convinced that 'silencers' go pew pew pew and can be used for all kinds of deviltry. The fact that you can make one out of an oil filter or buy one over the counter in Europe seems to be besides the point.

Scott Obermuller

How many 'children of color' have been murdered in the last 5 years?
Did St Paul or Little Bobby Cross ever start posting here about that tragic problem?
Only when it's mostly white kids is it a tragic problem.

Bill Tozer

The lefties in this country have undermined local police, our military, are fighting tooth and nail to keep our borders wide open for the influx of guns, drugs, and criminals. School boards across the country have pushed to keep police off campus because they do not like LE anywhere near schools because...beacause....because they are liberals.

School boards, it’s up to you to protect our children. You can’t count on laws, gun free zones, folks on the no fly list or watch
It’s not getting their hands on guns, shrinks or doctors diligently reporting troubled kids on the edge, and you can’t lock them up until they are 21. Nicolas Cruz was expelled from school and it did not keep you safe.

It’s up to you, school boards, to protect our children. Man up.

Gregory

George, numerous timestamps

I'm afraid Paul/Punchy is not being rational. You see, it's about children's lives and, as the one not agreeing with the raw emotional appeal du jour the only acceptable response is "Golly, Paul, I really don't have a good reason for owning a semi-automatic gun of any sort and of course, will agree to giving any and all of them up depending on what Congress agrees upon"... but for now, there isn't any actual proposed law. This is just the holier than thou browbeating stage.

There were a number of failures of the data gathering system that's supposed to catch people in the background check, and I think the 39 cop visits to the perpetrator's home(s) over the years should be what gets looked at, along with the suspension of Joe Biden's Gun Free Zones Act of 1990 except within hardened boundaries of gun free zone enforcement.

Russ Steele

When Will We Have the Guts to Link Fatherlessness to School Shootings?

BY SUSAN L.M. GOLDBERG, PJ Media

Now that the gun control advocates have had their fifteen minutes of fame, let’s start focusing on the real issues impacting the rise in school shootings since that infamous day in Columbine in 1999. Issue number one that no one in the mainstream media or government wants to acknowledge: fatherlessness. Specifically, the impact of fatherlessness on the boys who grew up to become school shooters.

Dr. Warren Farrell, author of the new book The Boy Crisis, explains:

Minimal or no father involvement, whether due to divorce, death, or imprisonment, is common to Adam Lanza, Elliott Rodgers, Dylan Roof and Stephen Paddock.

In the case of 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz, he was adopted at birth. His adoptive dad died when Nikolas was much younger, and doubtless the challenges of this fatherlessness was compounded by the death of his adoptive mom three and a half months ago. [Emphasis added]

The rate of mass shootings has tripled since 2011. We blame guns, violence in the media, violence in video games, and poor family values. Each is a plausible player. But our daughters live in the same homes, with the same access to the same guns, video games, and media, and are raised with the same family values. Our daughters are not killing. Our sons are.

Read the rest here:

https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/will-guts-link-fatherlessness-school-shootings/

Concluding: We ignore the lack of adequate mental health services, the failure of law enforcement to effectively intercede, and the sickening impact fatherlessness has on each one of these tragic cases. Why? Because it is easier to ban a hunk of metal than it is to right systemic cultural wrongs.

Scott Obermuller

Russ at 6:08 - Stop using facts and reason. We're talking about an opportunity to start pissing off the NRA and conservatives. You clearly didn't get the memo.
This is about hysteria, emotion and most important of all - feeling good about ourselves. redux my 5:11 at will.

Bill Tozer

Now we learn that a “social worker” labeled Nicholas Cruz as low level threat. How can you vet Cruz more than he was vetted?

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10155425224935914/?type=3&theater

It’s up to you, school boards. Harden up. Hmmm. Ever hear of mass shootings at charter schools or private schools? Must be a cultural thang.

Don Bessee

G @ 604-

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/19/colorado-congressman-columbine-survivor-pushes-to-end-gun-free-zones-in-schools.html

;-)

Paul Emery

Here's some serious details

"Using numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, we found that from 2001 to 2013, 406,496 people died by firearms on U.S. soil. (2013 is the most recent year CDC data for deaths by firearms is available.) This data covered all manners of death, including homicide, accident and suicide.

According to the U.S. State Department, the number of U.S. citizens killed overseas as a result of incidents of terrorism from 2001 to 2013 was 350.
In addition, we compiled all terrorism incidents inside the U.S. and found that between 2001 and 2013, there were 3,030 people killed in domestic acts of terrorism.* This brings the total to 3,380."

This includes 9/11

We have passed hundreds of laws and restrictions on our freedom to fight terrorism but virtually nothing to abate gun deaths. Shocking facts.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/index.html


Bill Tozer

I don’t read CNN for the same reason I fon’t drink out of the toilet....er...the liberal punch bowl. Wish the press would work as hard to protect the First Amendment as they do to dismantle the 2nd Amendment. Most of them have no problem killing babies.

Bill Tozer

And a darn good job stopping 75 terrorist attacks on US soil at that. Stopped most of them, not all.

Think of that little boy who washed up on the rocks off Greece. Heart wrenching. Very emotional. So, in a heartfelt response, open the floodgates to Europe and let tens of thousands of rapists in. How is that working out for Europe?

But what about the children?

Paul Emery

These numbers are from he Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Bill. Do you have a problem with them?

Don Bessee

The federal crime stats are out for 2015, just like the chart I provided above ya po' ol' fakenewsman @ 634 so why don't you get serious?!? ;-)

Paul Emery

You sure don't seem to give a shit about the deaths of innocent children Don yet you make a big fuss over the evil weed. Where are your priorities Don?

Paul Emery

George

I would largely leave gun control up to the States to determine their own path. I personally would require some kind of intensive boot camp training for anyone who wishes to possess assault type weapons. That would involve intensive psychological review and extreme back ground research. I would require a time limit for those who possess such weapons to enter one of those programs or turn in their firearms of which they would be reimbursed for fair value.

If Some states allow teenagers to possess automatic assault weapons then those who live in those states would assume responsibility for what may happen to their children.

This would be a start in the right direction.

Don Bessee

Ya still got that pesky 2nd amendment and the recent SCOTUS clarification that makes your lefty fantasy moot ya po' ol' fakenewsman. @720.

As to the sad, pathetic try at guilt tripping @ 651, it just shows that you snivel for links and don't even bother looking at the real numbers. Well I guess I wouldn't either if I had your po' ol' fakenewsman comprehension issues. ;-)

Bill Tozer

Only thing boot camp for gun owners will do is make them better shots...even the crazy libs who slip through the cracks. Cruz planned it out. Guess the reports of Cruz having smoke bombs and a gas mask from the first day of reporting suddenly is not true. Be that as it may, the Sheriff went to Cruz’s house 39 times. They should have sent him to gun boot camp.

http://buchanan.org/blog/motives-behind-massacre-128747

Paul Emery

So you want to cuddle up under the Federal skirt Don just like your support of Sessions and Pot laws. Shows you are a fake Conservative. Actually I could care less what your opinion is because actions mean more than words.

Todd Juvinall

DonB is right opn he mark. As a 10th Amendment states, anything not listed here is left to the states or to the people. Well, the Constitution does list the "right to bear arms" in the Second Amendment. Sp Paul is full of caca about that.

Don Bessee

39 times in what, 2 years or so @749 but he has ACLU's proclaimed civil rights. The ACLU will bankrupt a municipality suing to prevail even if he is bat shit crazy and a danger to humanity. ;-)

Paul Emery

I don't think the right to bear arms includes automatic weapons in the hands of deranged teenagers or psychopathic killers Todd. That's why a thorough screening and training is necessary.

I doubt if the framers of the Constitution supported the right for the above to arm themselves with military style weopons.

Todd Juvinall

Sure you do Paul Emery. You claim to support the Second Amendment which is the law of the land. Tellus where it defines "arms" and maybe we can see what you mean.

Gregory

Paul, don't states allow US Armed Forces who are under 21 possess fully automatic weapons?

Thanks for dropping the facade that it was about 17 kids killed by a former schoolmate.

Regarding states rights to determine what guns each state would allow... does that also cover the other amendments? Alabama decides what books are covered by the 1st Amendment?

Don Bessee

NEWSFLASH! THE Po' Ol' fakenewsman is reporting that an AUTOMATIC WEAPON was used by Cruz! WOW, news to me! It does not matter what your wish is ya po' ol' fakenewsman @ 758, style is your issue? The SCOTUS has made clear what it means.

How about we actually ENFORCE the laws on the books?

Emery?
Emery?
Emery?

;-)

Gregory

Paul 720pm, automatic weapons were covered by the reaction to the first St. Valentine's Day Massacre of 7 Irish mobsters by a handful of Italian mobsters in 1929... using two tommyguns (fully automatic submachine guns firing pistol rounds) and two shotguns. That was what the National Firearms Act did... allowing California to ban automatic weapons.

Been done already, over the past 89 years.

Paul Emery

correction Semi automatic or better put guns of mass destruction. You know what I mean

Paul Emery

Don, how about protecting our neighborhoods against mass murders rather than focusing on stinky plants.

Paul Emery

Don

Exactly what law did Cruz violate or better yet Stephen Paddock, the Vegas killer. They bought everything they had legally.

Gregory

Guns of mass destruction?

One round fired per trigger pull?

Paul, you're lying. Making crap up. For shame.

Paul Emery

Those guns caused mass murder Gregory. Shame on you for disregarding the harm they can do in the hands of a psycho killer.

Bill Tozer

1) There is no such thing as a semi-automatic gun. You pull the trigger, one projectile is fired from the chamber. You squeeze the trigger again, another projectile is fired from the chamber. You squeeze the trigger again..... nothing automatic or semi-automatic about it.

Bottomline. To this very hour, my rights still do not end where Punchy’s emotions begin.

2) “Don, how about protecting our neighborhoods against mass murders rather than focusing on stinky plants.”

Oh, that was a good one, Punchy. Like being pulled over in your van with a blinker out and telling the cop, “Why are you pulling me over! Why don’t you go nap rapists and bank robbers and quit picking on law abiding drivers with little vehicle violations.”

Gregory

A revolver and a bunch of speedloaders with .357 rounds ready to go can make for a horrendous rate of fire, not to mention a pump action shotgun with double ought buckshot loads.

Paul, the first fellow to get shot at the Florida high school was the coach... who was an accomplished shooter. Had be been able to return fire the day could have ended with only one casualty. Or if the database had caught wind of the kid being a mental case, no one would have been a casualty.

Paul Emery

So Bill what law did Paddock or Cruz violate that needs to be enforced, according to George, to prevent mass murders?

Paul Emery

How about Paddock Gregory? To the best of my knowledge he didn't have a mental instability background? What current law could have stopped him?

Bill Tozer

Punchy sez: “I doubt if the framers of the Constitution supported the right for the above to arm themselves with military style weopons.”

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10155425222455914/?type=3&theater

Paul Emery

I went to that stupid link Bill. You can do better than that.

Gregory

Paul, the question you posed to Bill Toes at 836pm was, in effect, how to ensure no one gets killed by anyone.

Utopia is not an option.

Paul Emery

Gregory

We have a right to self defense and that includes keeping guns out of the hands of psychos. By the way, what law did Cruz or Paddock break that is currently on the books when they bought their assault rifles?

Scott Obermuller

from Paul - "That's why a thorough screening and training is necessary."
Yes - because we need our psychopathic killers to be well trained.
What about voters? Why not make sure they are thoroughly screened and trained?
"...or better put guns of mass destruction"
What in hell are those, Paul?
If you can't define them precisely, you'd better admit you're over your head.
What about Sandy Hook, Paul? Would your finely crafted plan have stopped that?
Of course not. But we conservatives have been pleading for a sensible plan that we all know would have prevented all of the mass school shootings and you lefties would rather have the dead bodies pile up so you can become suddenly and magically hysterical when children with the correct amount of melanin get killed.

Gregory

No, Paul, you don't have a right to live in Disneyland. Or Lake Woebegone.

Utopia is not an option.

Paul Emery

What is that "sensible plan" Scott? Can you send me a brief outline?

Paul Emery

They types of guns used in Vegas and Florida Scott. Mass destruction of innocent human life.

Paul Emery

What is that supposed to mean Gregory? Perhaps you can tell me what laws did Cruz or Paddock break that could have prevented their mass murder spree if enforced?

Bill Tozer

Murder is against the law.

Gregory

Why, murder, Paul. I thought you knew.

What you are hoping for is a utopia. It doesn't exist.

Paul Emery

What laws that currently exist could have prevented the murders Bill?

Gregory

Now, Paul, what about assault trucks. You know, trucks used to mow down innocents, or transport explosives. Does anyone actually need to be able to rent a big truck that could be used to transport a half ton of an ammonium nitrate bomb?

Gregory

The absence of a bad law could have helped, Paul. The Gun Free School Zone Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

It created Gun Free Zones around schools by declaration, but didn't actually enforce the gun free zones. The honor system.

Don Bessee

Am I the only one who sees the same pattern from the po' ol' fakenewsman on jhihadis? ;-)

Paul Emery

Probably you're the only one Don. You live in your own world and from what I know of your personal history no one wants to be part of it.

I'm done till tomorrow afternoon

Cheers to all.

Scenes

Gregory: "Now, Paul, what about assault trucks."

That is more properly known as the 'Truck of Peace'.

McVeigh aside, anyone with a lick of sense knows exactly how you get treated to more of those.

Bill Tozer

Punchy. Why did the Russians cheer when Trump won?

Laws are like restraining orders. Only worth the paper they are written on. Feel safer now? Earl walked right through that restraining order and Earl Must Die. Was that from Pussy Riot or the Dixie Chicks? I plumb forgot.

I guess you don’t know that an AR-15 is just slightly more powerful than a 22. Deer hunter. A revolver is the best to have on the night table because you just squeeze the trigger without having to slide back anything or lock in a clip. Figure you get one, maybe two shots off and better make them good. Perhaps a shotgun behind the front door as well since Biden recommended blowing a hole through that front door when intruders or strangers come knocking on the front door. That Uncle Joe is a funny guy. Not very smart, but funny. Discharging a firearm in the town where he lives is against the law.

Ok, what laws? Military style weapons? You mean like what our Founders envisioned? A rifle with a fixed bayonet? Ok, maybe a law against having a fixed bayonet on a rifle. I could live with that.....maybe....but it could lead that slippery slope.

If you don’t feel safe with ex-cons having guns, illegal alien gangbangers with guns, some wacko in the audience who starts firing away with his 9mm “semi-automatic” sidearm while you are singing defenseless on stage in some place that serves alcoholic beverages, then I suggest you get yourself a little Derringer to keep in your underwear. It might save lives. Never know. Sorry you feel those darn apprehensions, anxiety, worry, unease, nervousness, nerves, misgivings, disquiet, concern, tension, trepidation, perturbation, consternation, angst, dread, alarm, fear, and foreboding. That really sucks. Cannot solve that one for ya, but I can lend an ear.

Now, tell us all about your “concerns”. This is your safe place.

Paul Emery

Bill

Would you share those same words with the parents of the children shot in Florida ?

Bill Tozer

I would not slam the parents or those traumatized teenagers. They have a right to their feelings. Neither would I try to dismantle the Constitution in a moment of emotional upheaval to satisfy your lust for government to do something. The solution is to harden the schools. That is being proactive, not reactive. You just are putting more feel good band-aides on the symptoms and kiss some boo-boos. Protecting school zones is a good solution. Just like why people lock their vehicles at night.

Bill Tozer

How silly of me. Why didn’t I think of it. Why don’t we make it against the law to carry a gun onto a gun free school zone? Problem solved.

MAGA Covfefe!

To the po’ ol’ paranoid hobby gun lobby...FBI arrests Grass Valley man who likes to build mail order ghost AR-15s from parts and sell them online. To the DEEP STATE THEY ARE COMING TO TAKE OUR GUNS paranoids,,,why don’t you fools get real? People are crying out for effective ways to control crazies from unfettered access to semi auto rapid fire weapons and all you can chant is SECOND AMENDMENT!!!
What did Trumpski wingnut hero Antonin Scalia say about AR-15s???

Scott Obermuller

from Paul - "The(y) types of guns used in Vegas and Florida Scott. Mass destruction of innocent human life.
Ah - you mean the types that fire a bullet when you pull the trigger.
Narrows it way down. Clear as mud.
As I thought - you have no idea what in hell you're talking about.
'My' plan to protect schools has been repeated several times by myself, George and others.
Do try to keep up. Class is not going to repeat the lessons little Pauly decided not to study.

Scott Obermuller

MAGA at 7:13 - If some one is building guns and selling them without getting the proper permits they are breaking the law. No one here is defending that.
" To the DEEP STATE THEY ARE COMING TO TAKE OUR GUNS paranoids,,,why don’t you fools get real?"
Uh - Mr MAGA... Several folks in govt have already called for just that. As well as millions of brain-dead so-called citizens of this country.
I would suggest that you get real.
If that is possible.

fish

A not unreasonable projection regarding the issue.....


After the Gun Ban

Looking back a few years after hypothetical new restrictions on semiautomatic weapons in private hands, we see a country grown more divided, but no less armed.


Can Americans overcome hurdles to changing this country's gun culture and the laws regulating firearms? There may be a path to accomplishing just that—but it's unlikely that anybody would like the results. Let's look back from a possible future…

The strategy that gun controllers finally settled on was to shift the culture to make firearms ownership socially unacceptable. Then, legal changes would be possible.

"I think we have to cleanse our culture of this false idea that guns are cool," gun opponents wrote. "Guns are not cool. Cool kids don't use guns." Others agreed, and they all pointed to an earlier example of demonizing a previously popular product. "Guns should be the new cigarettes," they insisted.

Perhaps sounding a bit of a cautionary note, cigarette smoking was actually on the rise among college students who rolled their eyes at the gross old TV ads. One risk of cultural programming is that people may change the channel. But the plan to shift the culture was adopted, and it worked—sort of.

That's "sort of" because, while anti-gun messages were a big hit with some media platforms, they were immediately countered by vigorous counter-efforts through opposing channels by pro-gun groups. That was something that never happened during the battles over tobacco. American culture—and media, with it--was far more fragmented than it had been in the days of unchallenged anti-smoking ads.

So the anti-gun message found an audience among those who were already predisposed to listen. These were people whose politics were generally left of center, and who followed media outlets to match. The result was declining gun ownership among those who were already wary of the practice. Before the anti-gun campaign, researchers found that "44% of Republicans and independents who lean to the Republican Party say they own a gun, only 20% of Democrats and Democratic leaners say the same," but now the number of left-leaning gun owners started to fall even further.

Pollsters who had found that many gun "owners associate the right to own guns with their own personal sense of freedom" were unsurprised to see them openly stockpiling weapons and ammunition in response to the cultural battle. It quickly became clear that the partisan arms gap was growing in a politically fragmented country. Conservatives and, especially, libertarians (who almost universally valued liberty over laws that threatened that liberty) owned weapons at far higher rates, and increasing, than their opponents

But the cultural onslaught, ably assisted by the stumbling GOP and its internal civil war, had enough impact at the margins to affect elections. Democrats seized the White House and majorities in both houses of Congress and promised major changes to come—including on guns.

Warned by experts that yet another "assault weapons" ban made no sense because "as a matter of functionality, these guns are just like other rifles. They're more powerful than some handguns and rifles, and less powerful than others," they decided to go a step further. Encouraged by Supreme Court turnover and the resulting opportunity to redefine the Second Amendment out of existence, Congress banned all semiautomatic firearms in private hands, with compensation promised in return.

Many lawmakers later admitted that they never realized that semiautomatics made up maybe half of the 310 million guns estimated by the Congressional Research Service to be in private hands as of 2009. Just as important, they'd never understood that, outside of a very few jurisdictions with some sort of registration on the books, the government really didn't know who owned what guns. Even in those jurisdictions, compliance had been spotty—15 percent compliance with assault weapon registration in Connecticut, and 5 percent in New York. Many owners had openly refused to abide by registration laws out of fear of precisely what had come to pass: compensated confiscation.

A few million guns were surrendered, and victory weakly proclaimed—to much cheering in some media circles, and jeering elsewhere in the fractured country. The largely unplanned-for cost of compensating the owners of those few million guns sparked a new round of jeers. The surrendered guns came overwhelmingly from the jurisdictions with registration, and from people sympathetic to the law.

Congress summoned its energy one more time and passed ammunition restrictions. From now on, you could only purchase ammunition for weapons registered in your name.

Gun sales surged again, now for bolt- and lever-action rifles chambered in rounds traditionally used in semiautomatic rifles, and revolvers that similarly accepted traditionally semiautomatic calibers. It escaped nobody's notice that ammunition purchased for a legal weapon could also be used in guns that never made it to the registration lists.

Enjoying similar surges in popularity were ammunition reloading supplies, purchased by people who wanted to stay entirely clear of registration lists. A new generation of 3D printers and CNC machines also saw booming sales as enthusiasts flocked to arsenal-in-a-box solutions that let them manufacture almost anything they wanted at home. The simplest CNC machines converted 50 percent lowers into finished firearm receivers—that was down from 80 percent, but likely to go no further after engineers scolded legislators that they were coming close to criminalizing blocks of metal.

Enforcement of the new laws proved to be exceedingly uneven, with many state and local law enforcement agencies—especially those serving gun-friendly constituencies—explicitly opting out. "It is well established that the federal government cannot force state officials to implement federal laws," legal experts reminded angry gun control advocates. That left the most enthusiastic enforcement in areas where support for the law and compliance was already strongest.

New restrictions on semiautomatic firearms had been driven by concerns over mass shootings, but it remained almost impossible to tell if the law had any effect on crime. The U.S. remained average to above-average in the frequency and impact of what had always been unusual crimes. "Though rampage shootings are rare in occurrence, the disproportionate amount of coverage they receive in the media leads the public to believe that they occur at a much more regular frequency than they do," scholars noted before the law changed. Such incidents remained rare—and frustratingly horrifying—after the new laws passed. Few actual experts had held out much hope anyway. As one gun skeptic commented after researching various proposed policies, "the case for the policies I'd lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence... I can't endorse policies whose only selling point is that gun owners hate them."

What increased in frequency, though, were confrontations between law-enforcement officers seeking to enforce the new laws and citizens on the receiving end of raids. Like earlier drug-enforcement efforts, the new gun laws were implemented with violent, no-knock raids--especially in minority communities that had relatively little political clout with which to resist. Grisly headlines spoke of the death of innocent people killed when police hit the wrong address, and of officers killed when targets shot back. Juries in some areas showed a growing tendency to give defendants a pass when they'd broken the locally unpopular laws—and even when they fired on police. Local law enforcement became even more inclined to let the feds enforce their own laws—if they were up to the job.

With guns now a more explicitly partisan issue than ever, left-of-center media have taken to painting gun-friendly areas as practically in a state of insurrection. Opposing gun-friendly media return the favor by encouraging resistance to what are seen as police state tactics and by sharing tips on doing just that.

An especially troubling development is that political violence appears to be on the rise in a country where the seams are beyond frayed and where members of opposing political factions "despise each other, and to a degree that political scientists and pollsters say has gotten significantly worse over the last 50 years." A line appears to have been crossed in the minds of many Americans, and what were opponents are now enemies.

New elections loom, but nobody expects them to resolve much of anything.

http://reason.com/archives/2018/02/20/after-the-gun-ban

Scott Obermuller

I think I see one of the problems here.
from Paul - "Those guns caused mass murder Gregory. Shame on you for disregarding the harm they can do in the hands of a psycho killer."
"Those guns caused mass murder." No, they didn't. You are factually wrong.
Then - "Shame on you for disregarding the harm they can do in the hands of a psycho killer."
Ah - now we are getting some where. Sorta. The part about Gregory 'disregarding' the harm a psycho can do is false, but at least we now see what 'type' of gun Paul is referring to. He is referring to only that type of gun a psycho uses to cause harm.
That would be any sort of fire arm you could name. Or a host of other, non fire arm methods of killing people.
It really has nothing to do with fire arms, does it? It has to do with folks free to roam untethered about society that should be closely minded or institutionalized in
some way.
I say we start with the unhinged lefties. Awfully violent type of folk.
Or we could protect the schools in the manner that is practised successfully by many schools that don't have these sorts of unpleasantness.
We could start doing that today and who would be against it?

Gregory

"Australia! Australia! We love ya!"
-the philosopher's sketch, Python(Monty)

From Robert Cross a few days ago:

"The real solution to the mass murders that occur in America more often than any other place in the world not involved in military conflict is exemplified in Australia's gun laws. Mass murder is no longer an issue. In Australia, people aren't walking into schools and murdering anyone who happens to be there. Search it out on the internet and see for yourself. They solved the problem."

They confiscated about a third of the firearms in the country.

fish

Posted by: Gregory | 20 February 2018 at 08:13 AM


Perhaps some of our more adventurous commenters might want to consider emigrating to these firearm free paradises that they so enthusiastically tout.

Demonstrate the courage of their convictions.

Bill Tozer

Writing at the Washington Post, the former newswriter for the data journalism site FiveThirtyEight explained her epiphany.

“Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence.”

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/statistician-rethinks-gun-control-after-digging-data

Xeno

What ever happened to the simple bolt action rifle?

It is not too hard to see why the AR-15 appeals to some. It reminds me of the lifted 4x4 truck of guns. Very groovy with all the little gizmos and add ons attached but not very practical.

A Winchester model 70 or Remington model 700 are fine for target shooting or hunting.

The AR-15 is for those who like to impress others when they come over to the man cave and see a Rambo special with all the bells and whistles hanging on the wall.

Sure you can hunt with one. So what?

Bill Tozer

Pew’s data suggest that those falling in the youngest age range have dropped the furthest in support for “gun control” since 2000 (when the alternative is presented as “gun rights”). And when the question concerns the National Rifle Association’s top legislative priority, concealed carry, millennials appear to lead the country. According to Gallup’s version of the question in 2004, the notion that concealed guns made for safer spaces polled at 25 percent; 11 years later, it registered at 55 percent nationally. The greatest support came from those ages 18-29, at 66 percent, a full 10 points greater than the next highest scoring demographic.

Does this make millennials more conservative on guns? Some think so.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/12/are-millennials-moving-right-on-guns-215703

Scott Obermuller

"...but not very practical."
Not to you, perhaps.
I take it Mr Xeno doesn't mind if we go rummaging through his house and possessions and take away anything we don't find (in our opinion) to be very practical.
"A Winchester model 70 or Remington model 700 are fine for target shooting or hunting."
That has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
"Sure you can hunt with one. So what?"
So - we are constantly told that hunting rifles are not what the gun grabbers want to take from the citizens.
Mr Xeno is a good example of a left wing nut. He sets him self up as judge and jury over what we can and can't have.
Sorry Xeno. We are a nation of laws, not of men. You lose.

Paul Emery

Well it seemed to have helped in Australia Gregory.

Scott Obermuller

Paul at 8:52 - So - we are talking confiscation of law abiding citizens fire arms?
Hard to tell just what you want as you refuse to answer questions or propose any sort of solution.
You just have to love the lefty-loons.
They want to confiscate your fire arms at the same time they call you paranoid for fearing the same.

Paul Emery

What are the lives saved in Australia worth to you Gregory?

Scenes

Well, it isn't like Australia's murder rate changed a whole bunch.

https://welikeshooting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Australia-Homicide-rate.png

It's interesting to check out how they've worked their way around laws there. There's some pretty interesting rifles.

Walt

Take xeno's car away. He is more likely to kill someone that me with an AR..

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