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« ‘Are We Free to Discuss America’s Real Problems?’ | Main | Scattershots – 20feb18 »

19 February 2018


Paul Emery

Don't have a clue of what you are talking about


So Paul, it doesn't sound like you've grokked the Volokh piece I linked, or you wouldn't be off track trying to figure out whether the Black Panthers would qualify as a regulated or an unregulated militia under the 2nd. The 2nd doesn't grant any authorization for "militias", regulated or not.

The Panthers did count as "the people" exercising their right to keep and bear arms.

Paul Emery

I did read it and it's a respectable opinion Gregory. Thanks for adding it to the conversation. The Black Panthers are worth a discussion as to the real world application of the 2nd Amendment and I agree with your conclusion.

Paul Emery


Do you concur with the agreement Gregory and I have about the 2nd Amendment and the Black Panthers.


Paul, you and I are as right angles to reality on the Black Panthers and militias and proof that you didn't get anything from the Volokh piece on the 2nd.

Your blissful ignorance is astonishing.


A great comment stolen from elsewhere...

A week ago Congress was asking Tide to change the design of their Pods so teenagers would stop eating them.

This week, the media believes that teenagers should determine gun control laws...


Posted by: Gregory | 22 February 2018 at 10:51 PM

Your blissful ignorance is astonishing. really!


Gregory.....I'll see your pithy Tide Pods ™ comment and raise with....

".. one for your school but we have six armed officers who will guard a coward's house 24x7 so he doesn't have to answer questions from the media."



You would expect otherwise from CNN?

Florida Shooting Survivor Doubles Down: CNN's Entire Townhall Was Scripted

"The latest embarrassing blow to CNN's (already tattered) credibility emerged last night when Colton Haab, the student who first exposed CNN for pushing him to ask a scripted question during Wednesday night's town hall appeared on Tucker Carlson Tonight to offer even more shocking details about CNN's conduct.

Yesterday, we noted that Haab, a Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School student and shooting survivor, had come forward to say he decided not to attend Wednesday night's CNN town hall after CNN producers gave him a pre-scripted question for him to ask.

But Haab told Carlson that the producers didn't just want him to ask one scripted question: They essentially rewrote a list of questions and political points that he wanted to make at the town hall, prompting him to back away from the town hall. Haab told Carlson he shared with CNN what he wanted to say, but a producer named Carrie Stevenson ultimately rejected it, and instead after several conversations "scripted" a question for him".


Paul needs to produce PROOF that the terrorist ORG
known as the black panthers actually "protected" the people from harm. Most "members" that have showed up in the press were felons.. Paul. Felons can't own firearms, or weapons.
Good luck with the militia that is barred from possessing weapons.

So in your book, a black panther standing outside a voting spot with a bat, scaring off voters, was a valid militia action?
Seek mental help.


Punchys buddies the Black Panthers......

"In pursuit of answers to the mystery of Betty's (Van Patter) death, I subsequently discovered that the Panthers had killed more than a dozen people in the course of conducting extortion, prostitution and drug rackets in the Oakland ghetto. While these criminal activities were taking place, the group enjoyed the support of the American left, the Democratic Party, Bay Area trade unions and even the Oakland business establishment. (The head of Clorox, Oakland's largest company, for example, sat on the board of the Educational Opportunities Corp.)"

......extortion, prostitution and drug rackets

You have an interesting definition of neighborhood protection Punch!


Paul. So is it your position that MS13 (MEX drug gang) are just misunderstood peaceful dope growers?

Paul Emery

The original purpose of the Black Panthers was to protect their neighborhoods against police brutality. That is consistent with the 2nd Amendment.


Posted by: Paul Emery | 23 February 2018 at 09:02 AM

The original purpose of the Nazi Party was to rebuild Germanys economy.

Todd Juvinall

The original purpose of the Black Panthers was to rob and murder their own people.

Todd Juvinall

If you have any doubts I suggest you go read David Horowitz' books on them. He was a member.


That's utter bullshit Paul.
The Black Panther Party or the BPP was a revolutionary socialist organization founded by Bobby Seale and Huey Newton.

Todd Juvinall

Trump at 51%. Paul Emery take your meds.

Paul Emery

The question is that did they have the right to arm themselves under the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment supported by participants of this blog. Under that interpretation I contend they do. As George would put it it's the price of freedom.


So you support the criminal element possessing guns.
Thanks for clarifying.

Paul Emery

Early history

The Black Panthers were formed in California in 1966 and they played a short but important part in the civil rights movement. The Black Panthers believed that the non-violent campaign of Martin Luther King had failed and any promised changes to their lifestyle via the ‘traditional’ civil rights movement, would take too long to be implemented or simply not introduced.


Posted by: Paul Emery | 23 February 2018 at 09:32 AM

Under that interpretation I contend they do.

Under that premise Punch all of your other arguments for gun control go out the window. Automatic weapons, high capacity magazines, grenades etc. are all permissible to militia members. Your endorsement of the unorganized militia aspect makes your prior complaints especially untenable.

I stand corrected!

You do have a different take on the 2nd amendment!


BS Paul.
The Black Panthers were involved in numerous violent encounters with police. In 1967, founder Huey Newton allegedly killed Oakland police officer John Frey.

Paul Emery

Down 11.5 in consensus polls Todd. You cite only one poll and ignore the rest.

Paul Emery



I wonder if Paul knows the NRA was formed to protect minorities rights to own guns?
It was the Democrats who were writing laws forbidding guns in the hands of Black people.
Paul is on the wrong side of history.. Again.

Paul Emery

I didn't endorse the Black Panthers Fish I only noted that under your interpretation they have the right to bear arms to defend themselves. You fell into a trap. Jab Jab Jab

Bill Tozer

Well, the Left still has not proposed one idea that will make school children safer in our schools. Hardening the gun free zones of schools is a solution.

We want Capital Hill protected. We want our courtrooms protected. We want our Presidents protected, as well as large ventures protected, be they indoor or outside gatherings, be they sporting events, music events, or street demonstrations.

What does an average Joe Q. Public think when he hears that some speaker or courtroom is protected? I may not be average, but what I think of is armed security with or without video survillance with a real human watching in live time. Protect with armed personnel. Then why can’t we protect schools in the same manner?

What’s with this mental conspiation when applying the same common sense measures we apply and expect when going to the courthouse to pay a fine but not plying or expecting to our nation’s classrooms?

How many of us walked our of a courthouse or concert or professional sporting event and said to our acquaintances, “There were just too many guns protecting us.” Average Joe does not say that. More importantly, the average Joe Q. Public does not even think that way.
The Average Joe Q. Public wants the laws on the books enforced and when the next shooting starts, they want someone firing back. They understand the terms “soft targets” and “protect our children.”

The path of least resistance.


Posted by: Paul Emery | 23 February 2018 at 09:50 AM

You fell into a trap. Jab Jab Jab

You really don't recognize that you've just completely undermined every gun control argument you've ever made?

George Rebane

Legal guns in schools has become a separate thread in the ongoing 'gun violence' debate. Please contribute your thoughts on this specific issue in the comment stream to 'Legal guns in schools' here -

George Rebane

PaulE re Black Panthers - You continue to be unclear on the concept of par force. Yes indeed, the Black Panthers had every right to arm themselves and confront authorities in order to get the word out to the nation about their grievances. The nation heard and judged these grievances to be without merit, and most certainly not sufficient to inspire others to pick up their arms and join the BP resistance. But the fact of the matter is that people could have if the BP grievances were considered to have merit. The nation had the ability to pass judgment, and the judgment agreed with the authorities that BP was an organization of thugs and criminals flying a false flag. The result was that select BP members were prosecuted and sent to jail, and/or died in firefights with LE officers. All part and parcel of a free people exercising their rights and being responsible for the consequences.


So Paul, are you going to take up arms to protect the "rights" of dope growers against the FEDS?
I'm sure you consider that "enforcement",, persecution.

Paul Emery

I'm not a grower Walt

Bill Tozer

FYI Eldridge Cleaver got bail and escaped to Cuba. In 1979, Angelia Davis escaped from prison and fled to Cuba.

“After spending seven years in exile in Cuba, Algeria, and France, Cleaver returned to the US in 1975, where he became involved in various religious groups (Unification Church and CARP) before finally joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as becoming a conservative Republican, appearing at Republican events.[6]

Cleaver a Moonie? Cleaver a Mormon? Well, it was drug addiction that finally took Eldridge down when all was said and done. The author of Soul on Ice once put Timothy Leary under house arrest in Algeria for Mr. Leary’s drug abuse, lol.

Drug addiction is no respector of persons, skin color, beliefs, religion, fame, fortune or lack thereof. Eldridge Cleaver died at the Pomona Medical Center of all places.

Carry on.

Bill Tozer

More on Mr. Cleaver. Didn’t know he was a Soledad brother.

As a teenager, he was involved in petty crime and spent time in youth detention centers. At the age of 18, he was convicted of a felony drug charge (marijuana, a felony at the time) and sent to the adult prison at Soledad. In 1958, he was convicted of rape and assault with intent to murder, and eventually served time in Folsom and San Quentin prisons.[1][2] While in prison, he was given a copy of The Communist Manifesto.[7] Cleaver was released on parole December 12, 1966, with a discharge date of March 20, 1971. In 1968 he was arrested on violation of Parole by association with individual(s) of bad reputation, and control and possession of firearms[8]. Cleaver petitioned for habeas corpus to the Solano County Court, and was granted it along with a release of a $50,000 bail.[7]

Cleaver was a presidential candidate in 1968 on the ticket of the Peace and Freedom Party.[13]

Also in 1968, Cleaver led an ambush of Oakland police officers, during which two officers were wounded. In the aftermath of the ambush, Cleaver was wounded and 17-year-old Black Panther member Bobby Hutton was killed.

Ah, the good old days. “When the revolution comes, there will be no more Nigga or Bullshit.”


Just added another name to the Ca. State militia...Mine.


Why don't the gun toting retirees volunteer to hang out at the schools?


Really archie? Proggys won't have it. But you would have plenty willing to do so.

If you look at the other thread, you will see where your old man Brown made sure teachers could not be armed.(or anyone else for that matter... Except the next shooter)

George Rebane

ArcheB 337pm - Please pay attention Mr Bunker, this already is a matured recommendation and being fully included in the debate.


The 1ST Amend. really needs a new look. "Freedom of the press" has outlived it's usefulness. Media has taken too much liberty in reporting. They don't "report" anymore. It's partisan opinion.
Now "the press" says the 2ND Amen. is just a "so-called" right.

Time to do a little "restricting" of the media. Lets see how well they would take it. They would squeeel louder than Hillary on election night.

Bill Tozer

The 2nd Amendment reading material. The whole people are the militia.

“The notion of collective rights is wholly the invention of the Progressive founders of the administrative state, who were engaged in a self-conscious effort to supplant the principles of limited government embodied in the Constitution. For these Progressives, what Madison and other Founders called the “rights of human nature” were merely a delusion characteristic of the 18th century. Science, they held, has proven that there is no permanent human nature—that there are only evolving social conditions. As a result, they regarded what the Founders called the “rights of human nature” as an enemy of collective welfare, which should always take precedence over the rights of individuals. For Progressives then and now, the welfare of the people—not liberty—is the primary object of government, and government should always be in the hands of experts. This is the real origin of today’s gun control hysteria—the idea that professional police forces and the military have rendered the armed citizen superfluous; that no individual should be responsible for the defense of himself and his family, but should leave it to the experts. The idea of individual responsibilities, along with that of individual rights, is in fact incompatible with the Progressive vision of the common welfare.

This way of thinking was wholly alien to America’s founding generation, for whom government existed for the purpose of securing individual rights....

Barry Pruett

Bill. I just came here to post this very article. Really good.

George Rebane

BillT 527pm - Mr Tozer you nailed it again. I recalled an Imprimis that had excellent coverage of the 2nd Amend, and was also just starting to look for it. Thank you.

PS. Great minds and all that BarryP ;-)

Paul Emery

Who does the "restricting" Walt? The party in power?

Barry Pruett

Paul. You need to read the article. The article also answers your previous questions about militia and the origins for the second amendment and its purpose.


The confiscation Queen is at it again.

YES! Get those AR guns off the streets. Adopt one, or a few.
Being alone on the cold streets is no place for a homeless weapon.


Posted by: Walt | 24 February 2018 at 11:42 AM

Yeah.....DiFi was more circumspect when she felt “safe” in her seat.

You’re going to see the sorts of outbursts from her as whispers about her “time being past” continue!


re: BarryPruett@6:36 "Paul. You need to read the article. "

lol. Are you kidding? That dude is pure troll, and in the case of guns all these same arguments have been rehashed again and again on any number of web forums. I've gotten bored with old men who argue like precocious junior high school boys some time ago.

What I've always loved is the neenering about the word 'militia', which seems to imply Army National Guard to these people. I've got a teensy brain in terms of the legalities, but always thought that the wikipedia (a famous uber-rightwing website) entry wasn't bad."well_regulated_militia"

Until someone can alter the Supreme Court and/or change the Constitution, any changes will be few and far between. The Court is a lower hurdle, of course. With properly chosen Justices, the Founders' thoughts can be tortured into any shape desired.

Bill Tozer

“I've gotten bored with old men who argue like precocious junior high school boys some time ago.”

Yep. I hear ya. Waste of time, was of breath, but the fight goes on. For the record, Punchy did not say A-bombs. He said tactical nuculear weapons..
Waste of time to post old memes as well. Think I will say goodbye to these two. Those arguments fall of deaf hears and blind ears. Too bad we can’t stop the diarehhia dribbling out of their pie holes. I respect their right to remain stupid. Bye bye old memes..

Bill Tozer

My, my. Look at all those semi-automatic firearms. Bye bye newer meme. Waste of time, waste of breath.


The Imprimus/Hillsdale College lecture lauded here gives me pause, as it has two major errors of detail in just the second paragraph: "Special animus has been directed against so-called assault rifles. These are semi-automatic, not automatic weapons—the latter have been illegal under federal law since the 1930s—because they require a trigger pull for every round fired. Some semi-automatic firearms, to be sure, can be fitted with large-capacity magazines".

No, fully automatic weapons were not made illegal in the mid-1930's. They were made harder to get, and were made illegal in California ... but California is among a very small group of only 11 states that never accepted the National Firearms Act regulatory scheme for machine guns for civilians.

And while there are a number of semi-auto firearms that cannot "be fitted with large-capacity magazines", I know of no firearm that has detachable magazines that don't accept mags of arbitrary size. Generally, shooters shy away from the really big magazines because they tend not to be reliable, as the Colorado theater shooter found with the bit one that jammed.

Bill Tozer

6:46 pm

Sure, machine guns may not be illegal, but try to legally obtain one. Reserved for some military museums, collectors, film industry props with licenses and permits, and historical displays. Starts with getting a letter of approval from the local Sheriff or Police Chief and then it works it’s way on up from there through Treasury and ATF. 9 months would be considered expediated, 18 months or more normal, if not rejected. Then there is the transport license, etc. Not illegal, but for the average Joe Q. Public, machine guns are as good as being illegal.

Gregory: With those gun nuances aside, what did you thingk of the main point of the article. Assialable?


Regarding Paul's reading habits, I have a strong suspicion, based on his lack of commenting, that the Commonplace 2nd Amendment paper by Eugene Volokh (cited by at least one SCOTUS majority opinion) he claimed to have read, he didn't read before declaring it good and demanding George answer if he agreed with Paul and me that the Black Panthers were a militia under the 2nd... which I had to disavow immediately 'cause I did no such thing.

Here's a major summary of Volokh's in the paper:

"These provisions, I believe, shed some light on the interpretation of the Second Amendment:

They show that the Second Amendment should be seen as fairly commonplace, rather than strikingly odd.
They rebut the claim that a right expires when courts conclude that the justification given for the right is no longer valid or is no longer served by the right.
They show that operative clauses are often both broader and narrower than their justification clauses, thus casting doubt on the argument that the right exists only when (in the courts' judgment) it furthers the goals identified in the justification clause.
They point to how the two clauses might be read together, without disregarding either.

The provisions also suggest two things about interpretation more generally. First, they remind us that the U.S. Constitution is just one of the at least fifty-one American constitutions in force today, and one of the dozens of constitutions that existed during the Framing era. 9 The legal academy's understandable focus on federal matters can blind us to some important details."

The justification clause (prefatory clause was the terminology Scalia used) is the place where the "well-regulated militia" term was used, and it does not grant a right to form militias. Sorry Paul.


As for magazine capacity, yes, they go from mild to wild.
What's known as a "beta mag.", holds 100, 5.56 for the AR weapon.
The big drawback is the LBS. alone.

I'm still looking for the belt fed conversion.


Toes 706pm

That's California... if you try to legally get an NFA firearm and you aren't in the business of renting to movie studios, you will be SOL. If you are a resident of Nevada and have $10k or so of money burning a hole in you pocket and can pass a security clearance investigation, you can have an M16, an Uzi. An AK-47. A real AK-47.

If you don't have a NV resident's status, you can always go to Reno or Vegas and give a tourist trap range $125 and you can shoot one or more fully auto weapons. Popular with Japanese tourists. They also give you a souvenir t-shirt to spray.


Regarding the piece written by the professor from Cal State San Berdoo... I think Scalia was clearer. As were some of his main sources, like the Volokh piece I linked.

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