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13 May 2018

Comments

Bill Tozer

Silly me, I thought that solar panels on new housing was already the law in Nevada City...with their rather public homelessness issues.

Back when I had TV (over five years now, oh goodie), I was watching that pathetic bongo boy local TV station FCAT or NCTV, or whatever that waste of donations community access TV call themselves. It’s was the usual grilling and filleting by the Nevada City Planning Department of somebody who was building a small apartment complex. The Planners were quite taking back that there were no solar panels being installed on the permitted structure. The builder and his representative calmly replied that the ordinance required solar panels on houses, not apartments, lol.

Some now are claiming solar panels “only” adds 9k to the price of a new home. What those wise gurus from the State omit to say, it’s “only” $9,000 or so IF you get the State and federal solar subsidies.

So far, my abode with my self imposed energy conservation habits does not pencil out to have solar as a break even point. That will change. PG&E will continue to rise due to CA and PUC mandates, so maybe sometime later. Or, let the next buyer go green at a loss. Darn, I should get a sprinkler system on my roof as well.

Funny thing is all the old drafty homes around Nevada City and GV do not have the new great insulation, double panel windows, and other energy efficient materials that new homes are required to have. Probably more affordable than newer homes, anyway.

scenes

BillT@4:19PM

"Funny thing is all the old drafty homes around Nevada City and GV..."

*That* gives me a good idea. California can pass the Greenhouse Gas Energy Justice Tax of 2018. It'll add an extra surcharge to houses older than a certain age. The older, the more $$$$.

Throw that in with the Nevada County Employer Social Equity Act of 2018, which will require all local employers to pitch $1000/yr into the county coffers per employee. This will serve to buy the homeless some microhousing and some smokes.

Those two bits of legislation will fix this sucker right up.

jon smith

We own two solar houses and have had for about 10 years. There is no maintenance except for the occasional hose off during heavy pollen. And who is this government man who is going to charge us $400. a year for "annual inspections?" Never heard of such a thing.

George Rebane

jons 1122am - my guess is that your news sources never even mentioned this new edict coming down. Haven't a clue on "who" will do the CA Energy Commission's prescribed annual inspections, but it will no doubt involve setting up new 'renewable energy agencies' at county levels and hiring new govt workers who get full pension benefits. I'm willing to bet the ranch that this solar panel gig is just the next in a long growing list of green mandates that will continue making homes more expensive, less available, and reduce private property ownership. Most people understand the de facto definition of ownership - you own something ONLY to the extent that you can dispose of it as you will.

M

,,,you will never hear an encouraging word on this site about Cali unless it is posted in the comment section,

,,,the Cali economy is steaming ahead,,,

,,,doing so well, in fact, some want to cut the recent gas tax increase,,,

'''The Assembly budget committee's ranking Republican, Jay Obernolte of Hesperia, said the surplus means there was no need for the state to impose a $52 billion gas tax to pay for transportation projects.'''

https://apnews.com/amp/b33b5b77093442b8bb1160aa46171f8e

scenes

",,,the Cali economy is steaming ahead,,,"

Jeez, you'd think they'd spend some of the money on the homeless or at least lessening income disparity. Maybe a statewide single payer healthcare plan. Oh well, so much for Democratic control.

My take on solar panels goes like so:

1. It's cheaper to put a bunch of panels in one spot than to scatter them around.
2. If solar panels were an economically sound idea, PGE/SCE would be all in. It isn't like they much care how the electricity is actually made.

They're a great idea if you live somewhere without power lines.

Scott Obermuller

"doing so well, in fact, some want to cut the recent gas tax increase..."
Not too well informed, are we? 'Some' didn't want the tax increase in the first place and have been fighting it all along. Has nothing to do with the recent surplus in revenues. Although crying poverty while temporarily flush with cash does make the job a bit easier.
Cali has been through this before many times now. Folks with impaired memories won't recall the last boom (record revenues!) and bust (couldn't pay it's own workers).
California is doomed. Most of the 'wealth' is on paper. And the govt can reap the benefits through heavy taxation of the upper tax class through lots of capital gains and property tax on flipped property.
And since M wants to claim Cali's greatness, he/she might to remember who runs the country right now. We were told in no uncertain terms how Trump would destroy the country and cause people to die!
Can't have it both ways... well, the left can as they would have no standards without their constant double standards.

George Rebane

ScottO 552pm - Spot on, of course. But it's of continuing interest how the liberal mind comes to perceive and assign causality.

Scott Obermuller

Even Brown can remember a few years back - 'Nothing good lasts forever.
That was the familiar message reverberating from Gov. Jerry Brown on Friday as he unveiled his updated version of the 2018-19 state budget—his 16th budget in his final term as governor. California’s strong economy is not going to last, and Brown says he is doing everything he can to safeguard against the next recession.
“Let’s not blow it now. We worked too hard for that,” Brown said.'
Yeah - good luck with that!
Free health care for anyone who walks across the border is next.
What can go wrong?

Walt

"10 years and no maint." MY ASS!!! Batteries don't hold up that long,and neither do the inverters. Name the batteries and inverter manufacturers.

jon smith

Scenes 5:21
"If solar panels were an economically sound idea, PGE/SCE would be all in."

What are you smoking? SCE is heavily invested in the world's largest solar farm, the 550 MW Desert Sunlight project.

And PGE isn't sleeping. 250 MW isn't "in?"
http://www.pgecurrents.com/2011/10/17/pge-plants-new-solar-farms-in-central-valley/

Don Bessee

No @ 611 the subsidies have withered and cali is selling its daytime excess out of state at a loss. Great way to run a railroad. ;-)

Gregory

The solar mandate needs to be seen in the context of the Global Warming Solutions Act, the blueprint for California's resurgence in the new economy made necessary by the calamity of climate change.

Of course every home will have solar panels... Sacramento is just having to force the people who won't take the hint.

Walt

So "jon" is now an authority on solar all of a sudden.
A lot of good they do on a cloudy day, and when the Sun goes down.
Make Frisco run ONLY on solar.. Dare ya'.

jon smith

Walt-
Are you telling PGE and SCE they don't understand solar? Scenes seems to know more about energy production than the biggest utility companies in the world, so you are in good company in your ignorance. Are you going to admit that you live in Penn Valley (net 94% solar) and you do not have solar power? If that is true, maybe you really have met your intellectual peak driving a backhoe.

We have A/C, an ag well, a pool and since 2011 power a Prius from the sun and have not paid for electricity since 2005. If that is stupid, please elucidate. How much have you paid in power bills over the past dozen years?

Gregory

"jon", do you think California utilities are producing PV power because it makes good sense, or because the rocket scientists in Sacramento told them the percentage of power delivered to be 'renewable', and the timetable?

Central Valley soil is productive farmland... why plant PV panels where food can grow?

Scott Obermuller

"...and have not paid for electricity since 2005."
Nice to have the cash to pay for a large solar system upfront. For 2 homes, no less. Of course all the people in CA have that much in their pockets - right. What was the full initial cost, how much of a subsidy did you get and what will be the replacement cost? Solar makes sense for a lot of installations, but forcing everyone in Kali to install in new construction is just another reason for the middle class to leave the state.

scenes

jonsmith@6:11

"And PGE isn't sleeping. 250 MW isn't "in?""

a) I said "all in", not "in"
b) From their website, PGE owns 7,684 MW of capacity. 250MW is what? 3%?

Here are some numbers:

http://www.pgecorp.com/corp_responsibility/reports/2015/bu01_pge_overview.jsp

Hydroelectric is brilliant, but pretty much built out nationally.

Check out the vast amount of solar energy that PGE generates. lol.

Listen, I'm all for it, but it's going to have to be cheaper for power companies to really care. Until then, they'll have to be forced or bribed to go solar. Of course, like a typical company in California, they are making less themselves and buying more from outside. One sure way to reduce pollution is to force it onto someone else.

The moment that solar makes sense financially, you'll know it. There'll be serious action on that front by major utility companies instead of dribs and drabs to either meet some legislative limit or as experimental facilities.

Walt

Right jonboy.... "no elec. payments".. I doubt you have paid off the bill for all that "free" power. The money just ain't going to PG&E.
Just to the guy who got the stuff from China, and the loan Co.
And how many tax dollars went too? I'm sure you got heavily subsidized as well.
And by the time you DO have it paid for, it's time to replace the system. Have fun.....

As for your ECO buggy, my Chevy truck with a gas engine will still be running fine when the batt. in your goes tits up. Who is going to subsidize the replacement?
" Retail price for a new hybrid battery is $2589; with labor, it should be less than $3500 total. You may have to pay to dispose of the old battery too.Apr 30, 2014"

That was the cost 4 years ago.

My truck is an 02 model, and is running just fine. The water pump needed replacing at 150 thou. That's the life span of that pump.

scenes

Walt: So "jon" is now an authority on solar all of a sudden.

Hey, it's the nature of the web. No one knows you're a dog.

If he/she has a magic ability to make power more cheaply than with traditional methods, I'd suggest starting up a utility company. Since no one else has managed it thus far, Jon's Solar 'Lectric Company should easily be able to pick up funding.

M

,,,walt is against solar panels,,,the panels are an alternative to moving massive amounts of dirt around to make dams to hold water for hydropower,,,

M

,,,'''And since M wants to claim Cali's greatness, he/she might to remember who runs the country right now. We were told in no uncertain terms how Trump would destroy the country and cause people to die!''' the standard trumper refrain,,,

,,,scott and george believe in magic,,,1.5 years of republican rule is all it took to fix the world!!!

,,,simply amazing!!!

scenes

ScottO: " What was the full initial cost, how much of a subsidy did you get and what will be the replacement cost? "

Well, that's always the rub. It's an interesting argument, but the economics of the thing are lacking in the short run I think. Of course, there isn't just the cash subsidy but for most solar people there's the subsidy built into not paying PGE for the fixed cost of the grid. At this point, I'd say the whole deal is a hobby for the wealthy, a business for those who can manipulate government, and a great idea for people who live in the middle of nowhere.

Hopefully the methods for capturing electricity from the sun improve. There's certainly a lot of ways to do it, if I remember correctly the larger facilities use redirected sunlight to run turbines....so much for solar cells.

What I'd hate to see is a government mandated purchase of a particular technology, millions of installations over time (with the additional overhead of being house- rather than large facility based) with products that are utterly out of date in a few years.

From a .gov website:

"California's electric utility companies are required to use renewable energy to produce 33 percent of their power by 2020. A main source of renewable power will be solar energy."

There's your free market for ya', although I'd hate to guess how likely it is.

M

,,,these guys are like babies in highchairs slapping at the spoonful of Gerber goodness in form of Gov Brown stating that the gov needs to husband their pennies for a rainy day,,,

,,,you cannot make this stuff up!!!

Robert Cross

Why is it you right wing extremists seem to think that a paper construct, ostensibly designed to shield participants from personal responsibility (ie. a corporation like PG&E), has a greater right to make a profit than the right of humanity to clean air and water?

scenes

re: RobertCross@9:05AM

Dunno. How come you left wing extremist Maoists like to spend other peoples' money so much?

For that matter, why do you communist Stalin-fellating cat collectors think that solar panels, control systems, batteries produce cleaner air and water than a nuclear plant?

Robert Cross

Oh, and I guess nuclear waste products that take millions of years to decompose aren't a problem? Talk about short sighted. and that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not a corporation's right to profit exceeds humanities right to clean air, water, food, etc. Apparently based on your "other people's money" comment you think profit is more important. Do you seriously think that the free market polices itself in these regards? Do you really think that polluters would stop polluting on their own if not forced to do so by government entities acting on behalf of people?

Todd Juvinall

RobbieC 905

Wow! You lefty wing commies are all about the big lie. Your ilk polluted the countries they controlled while we in America worked to keep things clean. And you love those dictators as they are what you truly want to be. Republicans and conservatives are the true protectors of the environment as it is our money that pays for that. You liberals do your best to tell the world you care but you really don't. Think East Germany for the example of your policies of the left.

George Rebane

In this comment stream, it is important to recall that only discretionary wealth in a society is or ever has been used to implement 'green policies'. Those societies not able to create such wealth continue pollute at levels that reflect their economic deficits. That is why autocratic governments create and preside over dirty countries; it is in their nature to kill the geese that lay the golden eggs. This is a truth that passeth the understanding of all collectivists - they just simply cannot comprehend it.

jon smith

Robert Cross-
You hit the nail on the head and these guys will shuck and jive until the cows come home to ignore the fact that nuclear is the dirtiest of all energy solutions. Since the 1950's we've been told that the technology to permanently store and safely neuter nuclear waste is "right around the corner" Borosilicate looked great with a promised 10,000 year life span. Unfortunately after 18 months the pebbles begin to fail. Storage has always been an option. Hell, lets just dump barrels of nuke waste off the Farralones. It's a big ocean, out of sight out of mind. How about Yucca Mountain? Even the strongest proponents hem and haw at about the 5,000 year level. I have little faith that humans will roam the earth in 5,000 years . . . but don't we owe it to our ancestors to not give them the old radioactive goose egg? For here and now folks like Todd Juvinall, the future doesn't count, all that matters is what he can take, take, take right now and let the future come what my. I'm sure he's down for storing nuke waste in his yard.

Gregory

Bobby 935am and "jon" 1108am

Only nuclear waste isn't motivating current 'renewable' policies... it's clean CO2 that has been demonized and misidentified as being dirty.

jon, I think you've confused "ancestors" with "descendants". An easy mistake for someone who doesn't know if they're coming or going.

Scott Obermuller

So jonnie boy is back with no details about the cost of solar. Instead he's now jumped to talking about nukes. So much for the facts about the true cost of solar. Like all leftists, they think that because we're against the govt dictating what kind of tech we should be investing in, then we must be against solar. Wrong-O boys. Solar energy has promise and it is currently a good deal for some peoples' situations. That doesn't mean it should be forced en mass on everyone. If it was the good deal all the greenies keep saying it is - why would the govt have to force you to install it?

jon smith

Scott-
". . . the true cost of solar"
We bought 60 Sharp panels and three SunVista inverters for the whole of $2,000. plus the cost of removing them from a burnt building and hauling them to Grass Valley. It was a slight gamble but we've never had a single problem. All said our house and a rental have less than $5K invested in two over-engineered solar systems.

Gregory

"jon"

How easy was it to get the County building permits signed off for installing equipment taken from a burned out building?

Gregory

"We have A/C, an ag well, a pool and since 2011 power a Prius from the sun and have not paid for electricity since 2005. If that is stupid, please elucidate. How much have you paid in power bills over the past dozen years?"

'jon' 820pm

So, 'jon'... you know what lying by omission is, don't you? You purchased used PV collectors and inverters for pennies on the dollar from a fire damaged building, and used that as evidence for the viability of PV electrical generation for the masses, rubbing Walt's nose in it.

You did it on the cheap. Congratulations. That doesn't say a damn thing about the efficacy, let alone the justice, in forcing anyone building a home to install similar equipment at full retail price to help solve a non-existent problem of CO2 driven catastrophic and anthropogenic global warming.

M

,,,oh dear,,,coal is collapsing under trumpski,,,

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/05/09/coal-collapsing-faster-under-trump-wind-solar-gas-to-benefit/#296083a5ee48

scenes

ScottO: "Instead he's now jumped to talking about nukes. So much for the facts about the true cost of solar. "

To be fair, I probably mentioned it first.

There's so little rigor in energy arguments that they always devolve into mist anyway. No one seems to know the energy content/ pollution content/disposal cost in a solar setup (or battery powered car), ever assigns a real cost including the village commons of air pollution to coal or natgas, the lifetime or ecological cost of hydro, or the total construction/disposal cost of a nuke plant. We could probably run a power plant with the handwaving. I'll still maintain that solar will be real only when PGE buys it because it's cheaper than the alternative.

I seem to remember that Nathan Lewis at CalTech claimed that you need solar panels to have roughly the same cost per sqft as house paint to actually be viable.

In terms of the general ecology, I'm afraid existing US citizens are just along for the ride. We'll be treated with unending mass immigration who all need water/plastic/power/etc., the Chinese are going to keep on keepin' on, and sub Saharan Africa will quadruple in size in not all that many years. At least cockroaches and Keith Richards will still be around to watch the hilarity.

scenes

Gregory: "How easy was it to get the County building permits signed off for installing equipment taken from a burned out building?"


Ssshhhhhh. Permit schmermit.

jon smith

Greg 12:50
"How easy was it to get the County building permits signed off for installing equipment taken from a burned out building?"

Both were permitted installations. The fact that the panels/inverters didn't come out of boxes was never an issue. No one thought to ask and no one thought to bring it up.

Scott Obermuller

Ah - so jonnie boy made a "Sharp" deal. Well -good for you. And you now claim that all the other citizens buying houses in CA starting in 2020 will get the same deal?
Typical idiot left wing bozo. Can't see beyond the end of his own nose. Jonnie boy wants to claim solar is so great based on a way below market killer deal he was able to make and now thinks that validates forcing everyone to install solar panels in their new construction. Nice try idiot. I thought there was a reason I had to kick your ass to get the details.
https://reason.com/archives/2018/05/14/californias-boneheaded-solar-remedy-for
"The first is that it's a highly inefficient way to expand solar energy. University of California, Berkeley economist Severin Borenstein told the commission that he and the vast majority of energy economists "believe that residential rooftop solar is a much more expensive way to move towards renewable energy than larger solar and wind installations."

No kidding. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory figures that on a kilowatt-hour basis, electricity from home solar panels costs 2 1/2 times more than electricity from large solar facilities operated by utilities."
Sustaneable ible

Scott Obermuller

Hit a wrong key - 'sustainable' means citizens are able to keep up the payments. If they can't - it's not 'sustainable'.

Walt

Facts our ECO bastards just don't like hearing about.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/solar-panel-waste-environmental-threat-clean-energy/

So "jonboy" got his at a fire sale. Well good for you.
Bet you won't say a word here when they start crapping out.


Maybe "jonboy" can find a good excuse to why the Ivanpaw solar power plant had to lay a big nat. gas line to stay in operation.( maybe because the plant is worthless when the sun goes down?)

scenes

re: Walt

'Severin Borenstein told the commission that he and the vast majority of energy economists "believe that residential rooftop solar is a much more expensive way to move towards renewable energy than larger solar and wind installations."'

Thank God somebody out there has a brain.

scenes

re: Me@6:09PM

Sorry, that was from a ScottO post.

It's painful to me what an obvious statement that was by that Borenstein guy.

Scott Obermuller

Here's another example of clouded thinking about mandating public expenditures for the 'good' of the public. I know - it's not in CA and it's not about solar, but the principles and language are of the same ilk.
https://www.wired.com/story/nashville-transit-referendum-vote-plan/
Full of vague details and slanted language. But always the same smug left-wing elitism that lets you know the common folk (you know - the ones who have to actually pay for it) are too stupid to understand how much better off they'd be if only they funded the lefts' feel good projects.

jon smith

Yes. Every "study" will prove that centralized power supply is the most efficient and therefore, everyone should be tied into the grid and suck the teat of central power supply. Of course these same people want your money.

Yep. Its much more efficient to buy tomatoes at Safeway, yet, for some reason, my "inefficiently" grown tomatoes are a whole hell of a lot better. Same with the inefficient eggs my chickens lay and the inefficient bread I make. You are missing out on life if your one and only predicate is the bottom line.

Juvinall only understands money so he is allowed to wallow in the filth of his own efficiencies.

Todd Juvinall

jon smith | 15 May 2018 at 08:45 PM

I have no idea what you are babbling about again. You must be toking the ganja you are growing out there with your tomatoes. Money must be important to you as you seem to want to avoid spending any in the local stores. Of course, employees are affected by your Scrooge minded lifestyle. Recycled solar panels from a burned down building eh? And eggs from those chickens. But alas, you are not a nice person so your lifestyle of loneliness is understood.

As for my lfe? Happy as a clam.

Scott Obermuller

jonnie boy continues to miss the point. Grow your own. Who's stopping you? Maybe we should mandate that you make everything yourself. Get rid of that Prius and make your own car. Start finding iron ore and make your own smelter. The left just doesn't have the intelligence to get it. Each person has their own needs and circumstances - and have the information concerning cost/benefit ratio that works for their own situation.
For a lot of folks PG&E does have the best value for electricity. Fascists like jonnie boy want everybody to toe his line. "It works for me - ergo - everyone must do what I say!" Sorry jonnie boy. You get to do what suits you best - please allow others the same courtesy.

Bonnie McGuire

I don't know about some of the morons that now invade this site because those blogs that agree with them are boring, but the hypocracy is overwhelming. They claim to hate the rich and love the poor. If it weren't for the rich there wouldn't be anybody to rob to take care of the poor. The same morons support a government that is making everybody poor to enrich itself. Talk about stuck on stupid! It's disgusting...

Don Bessee

YOU GO GIRL @ 912!!! ;-)

Scott Obermuller

From idiot jonnie boy - "and therefore, everyone should be tied into the grid and suck the teat of central power supply."
Which is the exact opposite of what I had just posted. But left wing morons can't read. Try again, jonnie boy.
Then he continues - "You are missing out on life if your one and only predicate is the bottom line."
So, please name the person that applies to and supply the quotes.
Jonnie boy has 2 homes. One he lives in and one he lets illegal aliens live in for free. Right jonnie boy? Or do you live by the bottom line and charge rental to the folks that live in the other house?
Once again, jonnie boy needs a little prodding to supply details.

scenes

jonsmith - "Yes. Every "study" will prove that centralized power supply is the most efficient and therefore, everyone should be tied into the grid and suck the teat of central power supply."

I don't think that anyone would suggest that you can't go off grid. If you want to buy batteries and a bunch of solar panels or a windmill or run a Pelton wheel off your kitchen tap, that's fine.

It's just that a state mandated system of sticking solar panels on all new houses and tying those into the grid (it isn't like they aren't) is less efficient than having giant facilities. Plus, at this point in time, solar can't hold a candle to hydro/nuclear/natgas for PGE. It also implies solar panels over other answers like solar-run turbines.

I might have said this before, but my guess for any new solar panel requirement is that the state wants solar and PGE doesn't want to pay for it. Thus, everyone building a house has to stick a wart on their roof.

L

jon @ 11:08 ... not even wrong- Richard Feynman

L

M

,,,’’’The same morons support a government that is making everybody poor to enrich itself. Talk about stuck on stupid! It's disgusting...’’’,,,thank you Bonnie for explaining the trumpski mindset,,,

Coal collapsing
Thousands of jobs lost in Ohio
Bailout of Chinese telecom,,,theme park deal in the works???
Diplomatic giveaway of Jerusalem embassy,,,hotel deal in the works???

Gregory

"I might have said this before, but my guess for any new solar panel requirement is that the state wants solar and PGE doesn't want to pay for it."

scenes 1012pm give that man a seegar, but it's also SoCal Edison.


jon 820pm 14 may

"We have A/C, an ag well, a pool and since 2011 power a Prius from the sun and have not paid for electricity since 2005. If that is stupid, please elucidate. How much have you paid in power bills over the past dozen years?"

So, 'jon'... you know what lying by omission is, don't you? You purchased used PV collectors and inverters for pennies on the dollar from a fire damaged building, and used that as evidence for the viability of PV electrical generation for the masses, rubbing Walt's nose in it.

You did it on the cheap. Congratulations. That doesn't say a damn thing about the efficacy, let alone the justice, in forcing anyone building a home to install similar equipment at full retail price to help solve a non-existent problem of CO2 driven catastrophic and anthropogenic global warming.

George Rebane

M. 642am - what does "diplomatic giveaway of Jerusalem" mean anyway, besides what is this comment doing under 'solar panels'???

Bill Tozer

Look in the sky. It’s a bird, it’s a plane, no it’s Solar Panels.

"The increase in oil and gas production is equal to seven times the energy output of all domestic solar and wind."

https://patriotpost.us/articles/56114-putting-us-energy-production-in-perspective

Don Bessee

Gee Bill don't go bring facts that don't fit the narrative. DRILL BABY, DRILL! ;-)

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