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01 November 2009

Comments

steve frisch

Kind of a tough spot George is putting some of us in. If we disagree we are
1) socialists 2) collectivists 3) one worlders 4) radical left elitists 5) heirs of the French revolution 6) responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions 7) enabling the military hegemony of China and Russia.

George you are the perfect heir to the John Birch society. To disagree with you would be positively un-American.

Russ Steele

Well placed. Now we must gather the troops and engage the enemy.

George Rebane

You're absolutely right Steve, and thank you. :)

Dixon Cruickshank

I like to use the phrase - AGW is like the Oyster - just a vehicle for the hot sauce - well put George and your correct, fighting the data is a fruitless endeavor. Some one can say anything about climate - proving them wrong is much more difficult, because there is no scientific basis to start with.

To see it work perfectly look at the Recreational Angler vs the National Marine Fisheries Service in the Gulf of mexico and the use of the Magnuson Stevens Act. They say the Red Snapper is overfished and keep shutting down the fishery more and more - probably totally next year, the fisherman report you can't catch a grouper because of all the Red Snapper. They refuse to look at other scienctist reports and use completely bogus catch numbers and discard mortality to continue the shut down - yet it is impossable to refute their science because they don't have any either.
So you don't have any real evidence for AGW but you get some scientist for $$ to say something - then let everyone else try and figure out a way to refute it when there was no basis for it to begin with.

Dixon Cruickshank

By the way Obama does think he should be King of the World - I honestly believe that, but as pointed out the US stands in the way since the game is too lopsided currently.

steve frisch

The contention put forward by George, that concern about the future of our environment leading to pressure to shift investment and policy to a sustainable and renewable future is a means of controlling individual freedom as part of a collectivist conspiracy, is nothing short of the paranoid delusional ranting of a marginalized and frustrated conspiracy theorist.

That's how its just like the legacy of the John Birch society.

There is no global conspiracy. The new world order does not exist. No one is trying to destroy our wealth.

The desire to believe in conspiracy theory is a common delusional response to feelings of lack of control and frustration over the declining primacy of ones point of view. Conspiracy theory is the death throw of discredited ideas.

Russ Steele

George,

Some good news, the cap and trade bill is in trouble in the Senate. This from the Washington Post.

The climate change bill that has been moving slowly through the Senate faces a stark political reality when it is read in committee this week: with Democrats deeply divided on the issue, unless some Republican lawmakers risk the backlash for signing on to the climate change legislation, there is almost no hope for passage.

We need to continue to supporting those Democrats in the Midwest, South and Rocky Mountain West states dependent on fossil fuels for energy. These senators are worried about the legislation's impact on industry and consumers, thus have serious doubts about supporting the cap and trade bill promoted by our own Senator Barbara Boxer and John Kerry. California’s can help solve the the problem by giving Boxer the boot when she is up for election in 2010.

Mikey McD

George, AWG is a crisis created by collectivists for collectivists (little did they know that government meddling in finance would present a real crisis with which to target our liberty).

p.s. Too many facts available to consider the AWG/collectivism push a "conspiracy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1RxKW-P5V8

George Rebane

On the contrary Steve, there is no conspiracy theory here implied or intended, I simply did not say it clearly enough for you to understand. Since the wall fell in 1989, the west’s global collectivists all came out of hiding. There was no longer reason to mumble quietly in back alley bistros, or make their desires known at communist country conferences. Cohesive, purposeful international communism was dead, global collectivism and anti-capitalist sentiments could now be proclaimed without a hint of being in the traitorous service of a foreign power bent upon the destruction of the United States. All the work needed for a “fundamental transformation” of the country could now be done in the open by sincere and well-meaning people. And in the open it has been done for the last twenty years as witnessed by their public speeches, writings, and media appearances – it is all in the public record. The current Congress and Administration openly testify to this daily.

Many of us in the world feel strongly that global collectivism will result in the same horrors whether led there under the hammer and sickle or some more contemporary banner. By the way you isolate my statements in this post, it seems that from your perch this broader base of argument is not so visible. But take comfort (or perhaps not) that my words are anything but the lunatic ravings of a right wingnut howling alone in these mountains.

Now that we truly do have our first post-American president in elected office, the debate about the ideology has become more public than ever. One side can no longer deny that debate by either ignoring or marginalizing the belief system of a very large cohort of traditional Americans that still lives in these borders. Assault the facts, history, and ideas instead of stuffing them into a gunnysack labeled ‘Conspiracy Theories’.

Chris S

Interesting article with which I pretty much agree. Unfortunately, I believe that short of 5 year blizzard with record low temperatures, the AGW train will be difficult if not impossible to derail.

As we've found out here in the UK with the EU constitution, politicians will lie and legislation is passed without voters having their say.

steve frisch wrote "There is no global conspiracy. The new world order does not exist. No one is trying to destroy our wealth."

I think it's you that's in denial. Take a look at The Green Agenda
It's all verifiable, not a theory in sight.
But I'd call it a conspiracy.


Russ Steele

Steve,

No need to construct a conspiracy, history gives us enough warning of the dangers in creating a one world socialist government. If you read the proposed Copenhagen Documents, they clearly describe the takeover of democratic state governments. You can hear Lord Monckton explain it to you here.

There are historic parallels between what is happening now and the rise of Naziism in Germany and the Fascist in Italy. I am currently reading The Road to Serfdom, by F.A, Hayek. Only a quarter of the way to the end, and I am already shocked by the parallels between the conditions that led to the rise of socialism in Europe and eventually to the conditions that enabled the rise of Hitler in Germany.

State control of economic resources will not bring us a utopian world, but the loss of our freedom as individuals We will herded into economic collectives for our own good. Government run health care is for our own good. Cap and trade is really not to save the planet, but to take control of our energy resources and meter them for our own good.

I suggest that you pay a visit to the library and check out a copy of The Road to Serfdom, read it and then come back and explain to us why we should not worry about a little Obama socialism. Why socialism is not a slippery slope to loosing our individual freedom. Why we should not worry about the use of a manufactured hoax to take control of our energy sources, and eventually our whole economy, An economy that is 80% dependent on carbon fuel sources. I would love to hear your answers on how giving control of our economy to Untied Nation Bureaucrats would be a good thing?

steven frisch

Russ and George are now both on record as promoting the idea that there is a "global collectivist conspiracy", that it is the heir of the global communist conspiracy, and that it is a threat equal to or greater than Nazism.

They are supporting that position by using the common ploy of setting up a logical fallacy. A fallacy is misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning or argumentation. A logical fallacy is setting up a conclusion that does not follow from the premise. The premise here is that implementation of global policy to combat climate change will reduce individual rights. (Never mind the point that it might PROTECT some peoples rights as well) The conclusion is that the people who are proposing the solution are cognizant of the reduction of individual rights and are thus either 'socialists', 'collectivists', or 'fascist' conspirators, depending upon which version of their argument you choose.

By choosing to construct this logical fallacy they are eliminating the need to claim there is a conspiracy. No need to claim a conspiracy, it is evident. The effect of the AGWers actions will be a reduction of individual liberty, the proponents know it, and that is collectivism. See they don't have to prove a conspiracy, they are acting like there is one, so there must be!

This is exactly the sort of manipulation they use in their arguments on a regular basis.

What is most distressing is that this is the same manipulation they use when posting columns in The Union, while masquerading as rational voices in our community. It is the intentional twisting of information to distort the truth, and appeal to the emotions rather than the reason of readers, and it is intellectually dishonest.

On the pages of The Union they profess to be making statements about policy from a position of unbiased knowledge or greater experience. In reality they believe that there is a "global collectivist conspiracy" acting as a guiding hand. How is the public to differentiate between the rational positions that they claim to take, and the positions driven by their conspiracy theory? At what point does their belief in a global conspiracy cloud their judgment on other issues?

If George and Russ are going to charge something as strong as a "global collectivist conspiracy" the burden of proof is on THEM. They should not be allowed to get away with asking the “when did you stop beating your wife” question.

It is pretty clear to me that they are practicing the Cold War strategy of creating a more potent enemy to fear so they have a convenient foil for their ideological positions. Throw around a few words like 'socialism', and 'post-American' to stir up some nativist resentment and gain a following of similarly sad disaffected souls.

steven frisch

What does 'post-American' really mean anyway? Does it mean that they don't believe Obama is a natural born American citizen or that his policies are 'post-American'? Under our system of government there is no such thing as "electing a post-American President", if they are elected they are legitimate, unless they are constitutionally unqualified. So are they saying that President Obama is unqualified? Can we add "birther" to the positions they are now defending? ‘Post-American’ is another ploy, a fallacy--by saying post-American we imply un-American--because if one is 'post' they must not be truly American right? So they get to call the President of the United States un-American without really actually saying it.

Manipulation.

Here is my favorite George statement: "Cohesive, purposeful international communism was dead, global collectivism and anti-capitalist sentiments could now be proclaimed without a hint of being in the traitorous service of a foreign power bent upon the destruction of the United States."

If we disagree with George's worldview we are "bent upon the destruction of the United States".

Manipulation.

I have a reading suggestion for you Russ: read "The Nazi Seizure of Power" and "Hitler’s Willing Executioners" for a real lesson in the rise of fascism.
One of the hallmarks is the need to dehumanize, demean and demonize your opponents in order to rationalize suppression and violence. It’s a practice usually adopted by small meaningless people who have no other outlet for frustration with their lot in the world or the supremacy of their ideas. Collecting those people together through communications to act as a political force is called propaganda.

Here are the hallmarks of propaganda:

ad hominem--attacking your opponent instead of their ideas
ad nauseam--constant repetition of the position
appeal to fear--building support based on exploiting the anxiety of your audience
appeal to prejudice--using loaded or emotive terms to imply moral good to the cause
big lie--repeating the same untruth until it becomes second nature
common man--appealing to the common nature of the audience as superior to intellectual arguments
disinformation--intentionally diverting people from truth
flag waving--appealing to inherent patriotism instead of logic
generalities--emotional appeals with no data or analysis
intentional vagueness--
half truths--

......the list could go on but I think the reader gets they idea.

I am sorry I don't understand; sounds to me like the pot is calling the kettle a fascist.

George and Russ manipulate information to make a point unsupported by fact. By doing so they are preying on the weakness of their readers, both here on their blogs with their limited audiences, and in The Union, with their falsely inflated audience of tens of thousands. And The Union is providing the platform.

Bottom line: both of these guys are so far over the edge they need tin foil hats.


steven frisch

Please read previous two posts together as one. For some reason Typepad would not allow the entire post to be be processes as one.

George Rebane

Steve, you deserve a more complete answer to your magnificent comment, and it is forthcoming. In the interval, could you clear up your protocol for using quotes, like in "global collectivist conspiracy". In normal usage, full quotes cite words that were actually written or spoken by someone. Since those words have not been part of my output - in fact, quite the opposite, the need for such a conspiracy is long past - what is the meaning of those quotes? If they represent your own (mis)understanding of my commentary, then it would be good of you to clarify that for the reader.

steven frisch

I do not misunderstand.

I am stating quite clearly that you are charging a "global collectivist conspiracy", that those words are a part of your output, that you are charging it without actually saying the words, that you know you are doing so, and that you are using the construct of the logical fallacy to do so. I am illuminating the fact that this is an amateur propaganda tactic, that both you and Russ use it on a regular basis, and that no thinking reader should fall prey to it.

I think you should stop insulting the intelligence of your readers by claiming they misunderstand. We understand quite clearly, you are implying conspiracy, lack of patriotism, socialism, fascism, globalism, collectivism, and your intent in doing so is to spread fear.

I know you will never agree, but I for one am not willing to allow you to dissemble like this and get away with it.
If you are going to make charges like this at least have the honesty to state them directly and stand behind them instead of playing a linguistic game.

George Rebane

Sumbich, and here I thought all along that I was successfully pulling the wool over the eyes of at least the readers that just fell off the punkin wagon. Well I guess that's what happens when you're an amateur trying to push amateurish propaganda full of logical fallacies - you finally get outed by your betters.

But thanks for letting eveyone know that you misuse quotes to pull words from the mouths of people whose real intentions you know and want to expose. Wow!

For a more serious look at how Steven Frisch's (and colleagues') responses should be viewed, I offer the post titled 'Why Reason Fails'.

Bill Sands

I finally found a line of Steve's which I believe,"I am sorry I don't understand." I agree Steve, you do not understand.

Steve Frisch

Wow, re-reading this 4 years later reminds me of two things. What an articulate outer of your nonsense propaganda I can be when I put my mind to it, and, what a colossal waste of time commenting here really has been for the last 4 years. One could exchange Dixon for Greg and Bill for Todd and George for Robert Welch Jr. and the same faux arguments and anti-intellectual screeds would sound as topical written yesterday as they did in 4 years ago or in 1959.

Michael Anderson

Exactly, Steve. It's a nut circus, and it ain't going away any time soon. But we'll just quietly keep doing our work, and eventually the curtain will close on the nut circus.

As Archie Bunker once said, assuming a parental role model:
"What she done was wrong and she gotta be punished. For the next two weeks, no outside after school. No outside at all. If you find yourself having fun at something, stop it. And no delicious foods for three weeks. You only gotta eat the terrible foods that are good for you. And then no TV for a week. And the next week, and this is gonna be tougher: educational TV only."

George Rebane

Messrs Frisch and Anderson, you have spent these long years on RR for only one reason, it is the only place where you have an audience on issues of moment and currency, elsewhere you would be lecturing a few crickets in an echo chamber. That you behave yourselves as boors when here is apparently part and parcel of the cohort from which you hail. Just keep your insults to a dull roar and you will continue to be tolerated. However, never forget that you also have an alternative that may be the most pleasing to everyone.

Todd Juvinall

It is my experience with hypocrites like Frisch and MAnderson that when their "OX" is being gored, (meaning their livelihood is being attacked), they react this way. The fact that no other commenters here are making any money from AGW related things (AB32 etc.) makes their insults too funny. But when people like them can't control their mouths they end up isolated as these two nuts appear to be.

Steve Frisch

Hey Todd, did you vote on building code revisions while you were an elected member of the Nevada County Board of Supervisors and a building contractor at the same time? Is that in your statements of economic interest? Everyone has an interest...it is the way of the world. Thinking that your interest is inherently superior is the mark of an inferior mind.

Todd Juvinall

No I abstained from the discussions and the votes regarding building. Try harder Mr. hypocrite.

Steve Frisch

You never voted on zoning policy? On building codes? On any public works projects that could affect property values?

Paul Emery


todd

Did you vote on the General Plan or any updates while on the Board?

Paul Emery

Todd

And certainly you voted with your money when you tried to develop the ultimate infill project in Nevada County history, your thirty some unit on two acres at Glenbrook in the Brunswick Basin in the early 90's. That would have perfectly fulfilled Rosa C's prophecy that " people should be rounded up off the land and packed into human settlements, or islands of human habitation, close to employment centers and transportation." so that they can be " More easily watched and monitored"

It was ultimately defeated by a coalition of environmentalists and Conservative Supervisor Dave Tobiasson who withdrew his support and caused you to kill the project to save face.

Steve Frisch

Yeah, total bullsh*#, Todd.

Paul Emery

One more thing, since Agenda 21 was implemented in 1987 Todd stood to make thousands in profits implementing Agenda 21 in Nevada County. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

George Rebane

re PaulE's 1141am - "... since Agenda 21 was implemented in 1987 ..."??!!, the insanity continues.

Paul Emery

Yes George


Yes, that was the date according to your Agenda 21 posting that it all began. Todds project was in the early 90's around 95 I believe. I should have used the term formulated instead of implemented at 11:41 but Todds was, according to Ms Rosa C', certainly an example of a project consistent with Agenda 21 and he stood to make big bucks off of it therefore profiting from Agenda 21's proscription.

Michael Anderson

Let's all make sure we're talking about the same Agenda 21: (George, I tried to post a link here and it won't go through...all links in comments are being blocked by TypePad, just a heads up.)

Michael Anderson

Trying again:
http://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/Agenda21.pdf
M.

George Rebane

PaulE 1238pm - The 1987 date is reported as start of internal UN deliberations on the objectives, tenets, and means to achieve their global vision. I don't know when it all came together, but the total package was introduced to the world at Rio in 1992 for the first time under the 'Agenda 21' label. And as I've reiterated in my 22may13 post, many of the incorporated tenets were already being implemented by progressive local governments.

You and Todd can sort out 'Todd's projects' without my help.

Paul Emery

No problem George. Todd will handle this with his usual grace and eloquence. It seems that many of the incorporated tenets were also exploited as profit sources by at least one local Conservative that now claims to be opposed to what he was trying to make a buck out of a few years ago.

Steve Frisch

Hey George, did you purge another one of my posts or are they just not showing up like the several I failed to post this morning?

George Rebane

SteveF 339pm - Hey Steve, I have only "purged" your posts when you start flinging the ad hominem crap. What's your problem now?

Best always to refresh the RR page before you post a comment, and compose longer ones in Word. TypePad has some weird time-out rules that no one seems to be able to decipher.

Todd Juvinall

I am honored that the rent seeker tax dodger and the Vietnam draft dodger find me so interesting. Since they just make it up out of whole cloth, I thought this comment was apropos. What a hoot!

Steve Frisch

Let me see, it is Memorial Day, and the guy who never served is calling the guy who served a draft dodger...what a complete, total, asshol# schmuck.

Todd Juvinall

SyeveF you missed the point which proves you have no clue.

Paul Emery

Todd

Who were you referring to as a Draft Dodger Todd?

Please review, for our new readers, your military service during the Viet Nam War. For the record, I served in the Air Force Reserves for six years and was discharged in 1974.

Steve Frisch

Happy Memorial Day Todd!

Paul Emery

For the record Todd has accused me of being a draft dodger numerous times in the past despite my service in the Air Force Reserves. His attack on me is an attack on all Reservests and National Guardsmen.

Todd Juvinall

You two numbskulls miss my point. You attack me personally, my livelihood, my public service and my veracity and then cry like little babies hen you receive the same. You need to grow up and get some balls, both of you. You two crack me up.

Todd Juvinall

As an aside for PailE. You incessantly attack George W. Bush for apparently doing the same thing you did. Is that hypocrisy PaulE? What a hoot.

Paul Emery

Todd

Bush was a quitter and didn't finish his commitment. In my unit they went after you and would call you to active duty if you skipped meetings. No exceptions. Thousands were spent on flight training for Bush but he bailed and lost his certification

Here's more on the Bush AWOL

On Aug. 1, 1972, Lt. Bush was suspended from flying status, due to failure to accomplish his annual medical examination. Col. Jerry Killian says he ordered that 1st Lt. Bush be suspended not just for failing to take a physical….but for failing to perform to U.S. Air Force/Texas Air National Guard standards.

This can be verified here

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Personnel_and_Personnel_Readiness/GWBush/

Russ Steele

Paul is still suffering from the Bush Derangement Syndrome. He is still trying to justify Obama's failed leadership, because of the past activities of a former President. We cannot influence the past, only the future. He needs to get over his BDS and move on.

Paul Emery

Russ
I didn't vote for Obama this time around. I learned from his first term all I needed to know not to rehire him. It is possible to learn from mistakes. Did you do the same for Bush in the second term elections (04)?

It was Todd that brought up Bush and brought up the necessity to respond. Being called a draft dodger after serving for six years in the reserves does not bring out the best in me especially from someone who was a biker wannabe during the Vietnam War.

Todd Juvinall

Russ, PaulE has no clue. He truly has BDS. The reason I bring it up is simple. He denigrates things which he thinks will spin my top so he just gets back what he dishes out yet he is unable to take it. That is a true liberal in my view.

Regarding the difference between PaulE and Bush. According to PaulE, he did the same thing he accuses Bush of yet claims some sort of knowledge no one of repute agrees with. That is a true derangement.

The draft as I recall during the time I was eleigble (1968) had been replaced with the lottery. I was subject to the results of the lottery and would gave gone if they had called my number (326). They went to 116 that first year. Before the lottery and even during the lottery it was common knowledge that men went into other parts of the military that had a better chance of not going to Vietnam. PaulE went into the reserves which were a place many went to avoid Vietnam. So I guess PaulE needs to explain to us all why he, when subject to the draft and the army, chose to go into the reserves. The same place Bush went.

Paul Emery

So Todd if I can simplify what you are saying people like myself who served a full six year term as a reservist during the war are draft dodgers. That was spoken by someone who stayed home during the war and played with motorcycles. By the way, of the four West Coast units of the type I was in two were activated.

I served my entire term including six months basic training, two months special training and five years of monthly weekends and two week summer camps. IF you add up time served it is close to a year in service. The reserves were and are a vital component in our national defense. Those of us that served do not appreciate being called draft dodgers by one who did no more than sit home and wave the flag.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, tell us all here. Were you subject to the draft? Did you decide to go into the reserves to avoid the draft? Looks that way. Your subsequent service is no better or no worse than George Bush. I applaud that service. Your intentions are what are important here. It will be hard to accept your interpretation in joining the reserves if you fib.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding motorcycles. You are too funny.

Paul Emery

So Todd what you are saying is that I am a draft dodge unless I show a motivation for joining the reserves other than to avoid going to Viet Nam. Todd, you need to take a time out and go to a quiet place now. You're embarrassing yourself to your friends and colleges.

The fact is I was going to college part time because I needed to work to pay my way and there were no deferments for part time students. The fact is I did and served the full term with honor and was honorably discharged. Under your terms was George Bush or anyone else that fails your motivation criteria also a draft dodger?

By the way, when were your children born? You claim to have graduated in '68 which makes you pretty young to have babies so I'd like to know since you've have made personal details so important. You've used the reason that you were raising children and paying taxes as an reason for not serving before in previous discussions about why someone as patriotic as you would not serve their country in time of war. From your own blog:

http://sierradragonsbreathe.blogspot.com/2013/03/liberals-need-our-prayers-and-sympathy.html
"Todd JuvinallMarch 26, 2013 at 6:57 AM

Paul Emery, I was doing my part raising a family, paying my taxes during the Vietnam War. You were hiding out here in the States while others did your fighting. You amaze me and others who know you dodged going to Vietnam.

Todd Juvinall

You still did not answer the issue of motivation. You are dodging.

BTW, have you discussed this with others so you can prove I am an embarrassment for asking you pertinent questions? (I think you just make crap up anyway PaulE) Isn't that what you do as a "journalist"? I think it is you who needs a timeout and a pacifier. Too funny!

So PaulE, how many munchkins have you had? Ever served in an elected capacity?

George Rebane

Gentlemen, I declare this pissing match to now have run its course.

Steve Frisch

Happy Memorial Day!

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