« Waiting for Gloria Zane | Main | Reaping what we have sown »

08 April 2010

Comments

Russ

We are the collective victims of a mob crime that we are unable to stop. The country that I know and love is being stolen from me every day as a mob of progressives rifle my pockets and wrench the shirt off my back. The legacy of freedom I was saving for my children and grand children is being taken by the force of law, by illegal laws that violate the very principles this country was founded on. I feel helpless. How can I compromise with a mob that stealing everything I value in life, my freedom, my future and the future of my grand children. We must return to "the constitutional values of limited government that made us a great nation." We must come together and take our county back, we must return to the rule of law and disperse this mob. It is time to standup and fight!

Mikey McD

I would vote today to "divide" the USA right down the middle. My "Don't Tread On Me" flag declares which side of the divide I would call home.

Steven Frisch

I agree lets divide the country.

The right can have the deep south, where they are the strongest and have the most adherents. North and South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana (to the 12 mile coastal limit), Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee (sorry Al) and Kentucky. West Virginia, who split from Virginia rather than follow the rest of their state into the Confederacy goes to the Union. Virginia and Florida would need to be split (northern Virginia and Kentucky and southern Florida to the Union) to accommodate the least movement of refugees. Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, North and South Dakota, Utah, Alaska and Idaho, would go to the new conservative mega-state. Lets call it the state of Calhoun, in honor of the paragon of protecting white authority in the USA. Considering the demographic and political shifts going on in Colorado, Nevada, Montana and Arizona, there would need to be some rational split and the expulsion of the irreconcilable.

Every thing else north of the Mason-Dixon line, and west of the great basin goes to the Union.

Lets see, the Union citizens would have a gross income about 40% higher than the state of Calhoun. The Union would generate the vast majority of taxes. The Union would have all of the banking and finance centers, not to mention almost all of the great ports with the exception of New Orleans (which would be a great loss). The Union would have a higher rate of college graduates and highly trained workers.

The state of Calhoun would have a the highest divorce rate, highest rate of alcoholism and spousal abuse, the highest rate of obesity, higher crime rates, higher drug use, higher infidelity. Of course they would have most of the coal, oil and natural gas, so we would have to start the move to renewables pretty quickly.

Of course we did this once before, and I remember the state of Calhoun, with its white supremacist values and pride, got crushed by the overwhelming might of the Union.

Oh yeah, and Walter Williams would still be in chains, prohibited from learning to read by law, and sold from property owner to property owner without regard to family connection.

Mikey McD

Steve, are you sure that such movement won't cause the USA to tip over?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&feature=player_embedded

Account Deleted

Steven, you have a great imagination. I would love to see you try to put Walter Williams in chains. Your 2 country idea sounds great. For all the imagined horrors, it wouldn't last long. The conservative state would take over the liberal one in about a month, without a shot being fired. It takes about a month for most humans to starve to death.

Steve Enos

Hey Scott... I'm a so called liberal, former federal drug enforcement officer and former deputy sheriff. I lived in the woods for many years and have prepared to do so again if need be.

I had a massive garden and I canned and preserved. I cut and stacked my firewood and raised my own meat. I hunted and foraged for food. I am well stocked and still visit the shooting range every week. I would not starve and I have the skills and the needed resources to survive, defend and shoot back when needed.

Scott you need to think again about how you view lib's because just like the conservatives, we ain't all the same and it's a big mistake to think that we are. I can hold my own ground.

Steven Frisch

You guys are crazy. The most conservative areas of the country are the poorest, the most underpopulated and have the least amount of capital and innovation. I work every day to try to reverse that, but it is a fact.

Scott--Walter Williams comments are essentially a support of the secessionist movement. It is ludicrous to think that in modern American society that there could be such a dis-aggreagtion of the country on a voluntary basis.
Not to mention downright un-Ameircan to propose it.

RL Crabb

I'm torn between both sides. Relatives on my mom's side were Jefferson Davis and Betsy Ross...Back in the 70's I was part of a rock band called Carrie Nation that featured members from California and Georgia. The Betsy Ross side of me designed a flag for The Nation that consisted of the California bear in the middle of the Confederate stars and bars.

Now you know why my politics are so schizophrenic.

Steven Frisch

Man, RL that's an amazing vision. Just curious, what was the prohibitionist connection?

RL Crabb

Well, Grandfather on my father's side came from Cornwall, England. My dad was named after Woodrow Wilson. Grandfather on mom's side was in the Klan.

As far as prohibition goes, I quit drinking in 1990.

George Rebane

That's a pity Bob. In past years discussing The Great Divide within groups having far-ranging political philosophies and ideologies, I have found that the availability of ample puu-puus and pressings of the grape have provided a civilized environment and yielded civil conclusions.

RL Crabb

I'm not against other people imbibing, George, but I drank my share in the seventies and eighties, more than enough for a lifetime.

I still hang out in Nevada City bars with my friends every Friday, and I always have one Bailey's and coffee, so I'm not a complete teetotaler. Hope this reassures you.

As far as dissolving the country goes, maybe we should go beyond Balkanization and allow every property owner to establish their own independent nation.

Would someone like me ever be granted a passport to enter the Republic of Rebania?

George Rebane

Bob, you would be most welcome even without a passport. And Jo Ann drinks Bailey's so you won't even have to BYOL. For kickers, you would be absolutely amazed (and heartened) by the politics of our friends.

RL Crabb

Same goes for you and JoAnn here at the Repressive Dictatorship of Crabb Hollow. I hope to see you at some of the political gatherings between now and election day, if nothing else.

Cheers.

Steven Frisch

George in addition to getting red and blue mixed up, I am wondering at your inability to get the sarcasm in my comment. My point was that any attempt at parting company would not work.

Walter Williams preference may be a restoration of the constitutional values of limited government, but he is not the sole interpreter of the Constitution. It is my Constitution too.

George Rebane

SteveF, thank you for the correction.

Your 'sarcastic' response is the common one which usually starts the discussion on blogs that debate this issue. However, if your point is that the issue is beyond the bounds of reasonable discussion, then we are indeed in a precarious state of affairs. I am more hopeful than that.

Your stance may, however, join with the preponderance of leftwing conclusions in this case. Generally, the left is against any parting of the ways for the reasons that I have stated. When pressed, they generally admit that it's a risky proposition for them to let go of the rightwing cash cow. For equally understood reasons, the right would separate themselves from the left in a heartbeat.

The inescapable conclusion is that the left sees the right as a life preserver that must be managed, the right sees the left as an anchor to be rid of. Bottom line - you need us, we don't need you.

And no one would be happier than the conservative/libertarians if a collectivist would be able to disprove the summary thesis. For then we would both believe in a feasible goal and have something productive to talk about.

Steven Frisch

Oh and by the way check you figures, the highest concentration of transfer payment are to "red" states.

In California by far the highest levels of transfer payments are in red counties, with many receiving twice the level of transfer payments, that urban areas receive. Part of this is because of retirement income, but only part.

Here is a good place for you to do a little poking around--The California Regional Economic Assessment Project

http://www.pnreap.org/California/

Results on transfer payments:

Transfer payments in the 3 most consistently Republican voting counties in the last 20 years:

Modoc County 31.2%
Plumas County 22.4%
Kern County 18.8%


Transfer Payments here:

Nevada County 14.7%

Transfer payments in the 2 most consistently Democratic voting counties in the last 20 years:

San Francisco County 8.5%
Marin County 5.7%


Hmmmmmm.......

George Rebane

SteveF, those are wonderful data and I would do nothing to refute your belief in their verity!! Does that mean that you see some benefit from your tribe parting from mine? Think of all the money that the Collectivist States of American would be saving.

Mikey McD

Great update George. Collective (socialized) control/power limits a peoples ability to understand why the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Mexico is a great example- The tyrants wouldn't sacrifice their power/control even though they know it to be the means to provide their people with a higher standard of living. Power is never relinquished.

Our current battle in America is the growing control/power exercised upon the people. This tax season reminds us that we are working for our families as much as we are for the government. 2009 I worked January, February, March, April, May and into June (at the very least) just to pay the government (income taxes, sale taxes, property taxes, etc taxes) what they demand of me.

My "Don't Tread On Me" flag declares which side of the divide I would call home.

Steven Frisch

George you don't get it. You are JUST WRONG and all the facts prove it. Red America is not a cash cow its an anchor. Blue America is propping up Red America. Blue America pays more taxes and those revenues get transferred to Red America. IT IS A FACT. It has been that way forever. Read the stats. (And what is that nonsense about being glad I believe their verity, they are facts not opinions.) What I am saying is that I value preserving the union more than the savings from cutting red america loose.

George Rebane

Then it seems that you collectivists are just holding us knuckledraggers hostage for our own good. We would cut loose if we could, but you in your greater wisdom will maintain us as your wards all in the name of "preserving the Union".

The conversation with you is at an end. But we can both rejoice since at least we have declared ourselves to each other, and also confirmed our respective deeply held beliefs about the other.

Nevertheless, the search for a solution that does not include continued deprivation of our security, liberties, and property will go on.

ps. verity = truth value

Steven Frisch

I know the meaning of the word verity. You just can't handle the truth buddy. You are delusional.

Steve Enos

Mr. Crabb... Republic of Rebania?... now that was funny!!!!

As the facts and data show (science) and Steve F. pointed out "Blue America is propping up Red America. Blue America pays more taxes and those revenues get transferred to Red America".

This means two things. Red American is not sustainable and Red America is being subsidized by Blue America. I thought George and Russ were dead set against that type of thing!

Pesky facts and data.

George Rebane

SteveE - given SteveF's facts, could you and yours be convinced to work with those of us who cannot carry our own weight, and help arrive at a plan that would relieve you of the burden that we impose?

Please let us go our own unproductive and profligate way.

Steve Enos

George, these not Steve F.'s facts they are data from the California Regional Economic Assessment Project.

The data, aka the facts show:

Transfer payments in the 3 most consistently Republican voting counties in the last 20 years:

Modoc County 31.2%
Plumas County 22.4%
Kern County 18.8%

Transfer payments in the 2 most consistently Democratic voting counties in the last 20 years:

San Francisco County 8.5%
Marin County 5.7%

This is data George and what it shows is very clear. If you compare the economic wealth generated from these counties what do you see? Which ones create the most wealth and which ones are being subsidized?

Modoc is subsidized by Marin County and San Francisco? Why are the folks in Lib Marin and SF required to subsidize conserative Modoc?

How do you feel about the Republic of Rebania subsidizing Modoc county?

Pesky facts and data.

George Rebane

SteveE, the shortcut "SteveF's facts" means the ones that SteveF cited. Now, was there an answer to my question in your reply?

Account Deleted

Wow - this is really taking off! As to my comments above, tongue is firmly in cheek folks. I'm well aware of the vast number of flavors of political and personal ability types in this nation and it's very hard to pin down a person based on party affiliation, or location of habitat. I find it amusing that the most open and acceptable bias that I come across is that southerners are all fat, meth brewing, gun shooting yahoos. It was my observation back in the 60's and 70's that most of the ardent alternative energy proponents were the less-govt or out right anarchic types, while now it's the big govt. types embracing it as the latest pork barrel project. I would love to see what would happen to various cities and communities being cut off from the federal teat. Please! I know Steve and Steven have the facts, but they miss the point. Who would really suffer from being kicked out of the velvet-lined cage of big govt care? The dividing line is not physical local, but which group understands that wealth comes from providing wanted goods and service to a free society and the other that thinks it comes from a printing press or govt edict. The discussion continues!

Mikey McD

The data points with which "the Steve's" are hanging their opinions on do not support their thesis. I could use the same data points to prove the antithesis.

Your data simply shows a distinction between retirement counties and non-retirement counties. The bulk of the transfer payments you cite are SS, Medicare, disability... payments to retirees.

"Please let us go our own unproductive and profligate way."

Douglas Keachie

As to who supports the country, we know who doesn't, according to Forbes, where a recent issue states that General Electric made 10.3 billion in profits, and paid no IRS taxes, along with many other companies, who paid as little as possible, including Exxon, using offshore subsidiaries. How American of them!

The IRS does not list income taxes paid based on political affiliation, but there is a survey of Congress people and their districts, which shows that Repubby Districts average $4,000 more per capita than the Dems. Of course, we now come to another question. How many more Dems are out there, paying taxes, on slightly lower income than Repubs? Or, in short, who pays the bulk of the income taxes to the IRS?

We can all chip in and give George a going away present to the Red State of his choice.

Douglas Keachie

Wonder where my Gravatar went?

Mikey McD

It does not seem conceivable that dems pay anymore than 10% of total income taxes collected. Let's assume they do...Question: Do democrats applaud how their taxes are used (or is it just us libertarians that believe 80 cents of each tax dollar is wasted)?

In the case of GE- enough contributions to campaigns can save tons in tax bills. The truth is that the majority (all) of GE earnings come from overseas. They use their finance division (HUGE losses) domiciled in the USA to offset any gains domestically, thus- no USA taxes due. When the finance division starts to make money they will move it overseas... that's what an excessive tax structure does.

Mikey McD

One of the greatest features of our constitution is the RIGHT to peacefully make changes to the direction of our country. No blood need be shed to restore our liberty.

One of the greatest features of the Declaration of Independence is the RIGHT (responsibility?) of us citizens to overthrow a "destructive" government- "That whenever any Form of Government becomes DESTRUCTIVE of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

Account Deleted

Let's recall that GE is a big supporter of Barry and vice versa. This summer I drove north out of Texas up through Oklahoma and Kansas, then west to Colorado and up to I80 and back to California. In many areas, mostly OK and Kansas, there were huge windmill farms. I inquired at gas stations and at my uncle's place in Kansas as to who was financing these multi-million dollar enterprises. Mostly, folks weren't sure, but they all seemed to be on private farms and rangeland and it seems they are either privately financed, or a combo of venture cap. and local govt. or utility. The punch line here is that NONE of them said GE on the side (most were Suzlon) although Jeff Immelt will have that changed once we start capn' trade. To qualify for fed money, The most efficient mills will have to step aside for the ones that are made by FOB. Note: unlike the mills in California, these were all operating. All the mills were running.

Steven Frisch

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html

Facts boy.....facts.

Steven Frisch

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/jfrankel/blog/images/Repvsspending.pdf

Facts boys.....facts.

George Rebane

Good input SteveF. It shows how much the states with industries and retireds pay in, and how much the states with agricultural subsidies suck out. I'm on record for opposing the latter and also of industrial subsidies. However, the tax outflows from the coastal, large metropolitan don't make your point since they also have the largest number of transfer payment recipients. One man, one vote.

I'm all in favor of removing subsidies and price controls for agricultural products, and 'tax breaks' for industries. It's all of a piece of government mangling markets. How do we stop it?

Steven Frisch

If you look at the sources I provided previously you will find that the transfer payments are not just retirement benefits, they also include SSI, AFDC, UI and other sources. Not every rural county is a retirement haven. The facts are the facts, rural counties are tax sinks and urban counties are tax generators.The fact remains that under your "two America's" scenario, which was the original premise of the comment, Red America would be in serious deficit. Does not really matter if it due to Ag subsidies, although I don't think there are many Ag subsidies in Wyoming or Utah.

You can see the record on Ag subsidies here:

http://farm.ewg.org/farm/index.php?key=nosign

Note Texas (red state) is #1 and Illinois (blue state) is #2. I don't hear John Cornyn or Kay Baily Hutchinson leading the charge to end subsidies.

Douglas Keachie

"It does not seem conceivable that dems pay anymore than 10% of total income taxes collected.

The Dems, as individual voters, rather outnumber the Repubbys, as individual voters. Wonder when corporations will get to vote? If Dems make on average all of $4,000 less than Repubbys, and there are far more Dems, then it seems quite likely the Dems easily outpay individual IRS taxes. The government just doesn't keep track, at the IRS offices. It is possible to figure out the average incomes by Congressional Districts, and to assign the Districts, Repubby or Dem status, based on their choice of Congressperson.

Douglas Keachie

A great many windmills in California were the pioneers that allowed for the development of better windmills, seen elsewhere. Weather patterns on the plains are different too.

"Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain,
And the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet
When the wind comes right behind the rain."

Douglas Keachie

"

One of the greatest features of our constitution is the RIGHT to peacefully make changes to the direction of our country. No blood need be shed to restore our liberty.

One of the greatest features of the Declaration of Independence is the RIGHT (responsibility?) of us citizens to overthrow a "destructive" government- "That whenever any Form of Government becomes DESTRUCTIVE of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."
"

So, are you saying that you will use Constitutional processes, or that Obama has instituted a "destructive government" and therefore you are ready to forcibly overthrow the current government by any means possible? Make up your mind, and make your point clear. Which is it?

George Rebane

Doug? Keachie, I'm sorry that I didn't say it well enough for you to understand. This piece and its Williams citation has nothing to do with any overthrow of government. I merely invite a discussion of how a Great Divide would be implemented, and give some basis for having such a discussion. See the comment thread with SteveF.

George Rebane

SteveF, we seem to agree on cutting out government subsidies for all levels of big business. The top 10% earners earn about 25% of the income and pay close to 50% of the taxes. Do I correctly understand that you believe most of the top 10% are of the Left? or more directly, would they choose to go with the progressive side of the Great Divide, no matter how the geography would be divided?

George Rebane

Let me throw this also into the mix as it applies to assessing who and what policies affect wealth generation and taxes.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2008/11/Why-Government-Spending-Does-Not-Stimulate-Economic-Growth?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Morning%2BBell

Douglas Keachie

George, yes, Doug Keachie.

No, I wasn't addressing you. It was this post:

"One of the greatest features of our constitution is the RIGHT to peacefully make changes to the direction of our country. No blood need be shed to restore our liberty.

One of the greatest features of the Declaration of Independence is the RIGHT (responsibility?) of us citizens to overthrow a "destructive" government- "That whenever any Form of Government becomes DESTRUCTIVE of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

Posted by: Mikey McD | 10 April 2010 at 08:56 AM "

You I understand, Mikey McD leaves me puzzled.

Mikey McD

Keachie your spin of my quotes is comical. It may help if you read my earlier comment again: "One of the greatest features of our constitution is the RIGHT to peacefully make changes to the direction of our country. No blood need be shed to restore our liberty." My second thought just simply pointed out that it is our responsibility to "overthrow" a destructive government (again this should be done via votes- not bloodshed). Our government has been "destructive" for a century +. Obama is simply a continuation of destruction (and many would argue he is more efficiently destructive).

RL Crabb

Of course, conservatives and their Republican henchmen had nothing to do with the current state of the Union.

George Rebane

Bob, when Mikey says "destructive for a century", that includes Republicans also. The discussion here is not partisan in the sense of Repubs or Dems. However, it is with respect to the origianl intent of the Consitution the retention of which both parties have abrogated. We can argue the nuances of who did what, but the Bastiat Triangle holds. If it does not, all is lost and violence rears its ugly head, for we have become unreconcilable.

RL Crabb

Agreed. But when I hear the rhetoric coming from the current crop of wannabe representatives, it sounds like more of the same "gotcha" politics. I didn't hear much call for bipartisan cooperation from Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann at their recent rally. Mostly, it was cut taxes, bureaucracy, and regulation so we can go on another military spending spree to scare the crap out of the rest of the world.

George Rebane

Bob, after the highly partisan prelude and passage of Obamacare, does it not seem that the initiatives for bipartisanship would come from the party in power. The party out of power is always calling for bipartisanship. Our system doesn't naturally reward bipartisan approaches, especially to the weaker party.

The Dems have again been calling the shots since 2006. They don't have to co-operate with anyone until a more balanced Congress returns. The Repubs are no better when they're in charge.

Douglas Keachie

So the Ronald Reagan administration was also a destructive form of government? Sounds to me like you are backpedaling, by now throwing in a century of destructive government, instead of a phrase that the common person interpret as the current administration.

You yen for the good old days of unfettered Vanderbilts and Morgans, replete with 0 income taxes and free market monopolies? Take a look around you. We have a few of the structures inhabited by the mine owners and managers, here in quainty town. Just how well do you think the average 19th century worker lived in Nevada County? When will The Union do a history book about the average Joe's of the 1880's? There were thousands of them, and there are few traces left, except for the living legacies of people like Murie.

It about time The Union or the Library sponsored a Living History Project, while the tales still have living tellers.

RL Crabb

When you look at the charts on your social legislation post, you'll have to agree that the parties that voted for Medicare and Social Security are not the same as the parties today. Both sides are are making an effort to weed out the moderates in the name of strict ideology. Sounds like a recipe for gridlock.

Some people, like the crooks on Wall St. and the knuckleheads in the Middle East, probably think that's a good idea.

George Rebane

Doug, when you bring the snarky logic applied in the Union's comment threads to these pages, we are not going to make much progress. I agree on the history project. It would be good to put down how the "average Joe's" of that era lived in these parts.

Bob, have to agree that both parties are further apart now than in my living memory. And each party has at least two distinct parts, one of them being in their respective far right and left quarters.

The comments to this entry are closed.