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23 October 2010


Tom Van Wagner

Here's an editorial I thought about publishing in The Union. Perhaps not enough context though for it to make sense to those not hearing Rebane's latest nonsense:
The Great Rebane has spoken. In a recent audio opinion piece on KVMR the all-knowing one, and occasional right-wing, “Other Opinions” polemicist in The Union, has told us how it is. In no uncertain language we were assured, with all due hubris, that there IS no room for Muslims in America, confirming in my mind that for many conservatives in the US, well, they’ll take the Muslim country's natural resources, cheap labor, markets and geostrategic real estate; but they just don’t want them. Do I detect just a little asymmetry here? Rebane’s ideology is right out of a Samuel Huntington for Dummies comic book. Thanks George for the original insights. Oh, and next time you hold court I’ll be wearing my hip waders.

Dixon Cruickshank


Todd Juvinall

Van Wagner screed is the typical "I am smarter" crap we get from his ilk. Rebanes is a lot smarter and more worldly than most and he imparts that knowledge here and other places. I for one appreciate the insights. Merkel is finally saying what many think and are afraid to say. America, once a great melting pot of people and ideas where anyone could come here and become an American has been wracked by political correctness where people idenify themselves as some left from foreign country before they call themselves Americans. I could care less where someone comes from as long as they want to become an American first then they can be some additional moniker later. PC is under attack for its hate and conformity, two things America is not about.

Steven Frisch

Van Wagner is right on. Did you really print this?

‘Should I not have a protected right to immerse myself in the culture of my choosing, and not be forced by the state to expose myself to cultures that I and others like me consider foreign and subtractive from our quality of life?’

The simple answer is no. You have no right to demand that you can "live, work and raise my children among people who are like me". You have no protected right to mono-culturism. If you insist on it, you are practicing hate and demanding conformity. If you insist on it you are racial supremacists and hate mongers.

What part of America do you not get? Did you not even read the Constitution?

George, my friend you are getting a little helter skelter.

Russ Steele

Frisch, if your knew what the hell you are talking about, we would not be falling off our chairs laughing. This is America Dude, we are all from somewhere, but we are all Americans in an American culture, there is no room for multi cultural enclaves. As the Australian Prime Minister said, become Australian's or leave. Become American's or leave, it is that simple.

Our American culture has benefited from people of all nations, but all those people became Americans. That is the power of America, the assimilation of people from around the world. The carp you are spewing in utter nonsense.

Bob Hobert

You played right into it as expected Steve. "You have no protected right to mono-culturism." Please pass on that gem of insight to the 13th century moslems who will kindly chop off your head to remain mono-cultural in their country. You certainly wouldn't expect muslims to move to your country and be like you, and since they won't assimilate, something's got to give. You apparently would have it be OUR historic and uniquely successful melting pot American culture . I'll choose which culture I wish to live in, thank you. Am I a hateful, racist bigot now? Report me to your Iman.

Steven Frisch

Russ, you are amazing.

How could we both live in same country and have such different views of our American experience? I can only assume that you don't read the history of our great country.

Of course I want people to assimilate. But George is going way beyond that. He is asking, "can I demand that I live with people like me". The answer is emphatically no.

You want a great divide? You are hastening division of our country along cultural, racial, socio-economic and religious lines. That is not America. You want to go back to 1910? I will fight that with my dying breath. We have made progress. You are the forces of radical, violent counter revolution.

You guys appear to me to be just plain damn nuts. Next stop is Christian Identity from where you are right now.

George Rebane

"can I demand that I live with people like me" SteveF, you must be quoting someone else; I never used those words. Was that a typo, or another example of 'I know what he really meant to say'?

Bob Hobert

Steve! Multi-culturalism does exactly what you say - "hastening division of our country along cultural, racial, socio-economic and religious lines. That is not America". Did you miss Germany's conclusions on multi-culturalism? Can we expect better results here? I might add you appear a bit intemperate with your closing remarks.

Steven Frisch

Well Bob, yes, if you chose your culture, and use law or social convention to enforce it, segregate it, protect it from outside influences, in any way, you are a hateful bigot. The entire American experience is based on the idea that where one comes from, their religion, their color, and their socio-economic status does not matter. This is not Saudi Arabia or Iran. This is the United States of America.

George, I directly quoted you. The answer is we are not India or Switzerland. Anyone other than your clones will read it the same way. You are the apostle of helter skelter. You can play a double game with them but I am no idiot.

And finally, Bob, yes, we can expect better results here. We are not Germany either. We did not propagate two world wars. We do not have a 1500 year history of endemic racial and religious conflict. The entire history of America, and our entire government, is based on the idea that we are not Europe.

This is nothing but clear, simple, obvious bigotry and religious intolerance.

I really don't care if I appear intemperate. I am telling the truth. This idea is about one step from Christian Identity. It does not have the religious underpinnings, but it has the separatist philosophy firmly in mind. If not what the hell is the "Great Divide"? Read Georges writings--it is all there--just like it was in Mein Kampf.

"Separatism is the advocacy of a state of cultural, ethnic, tribal, religious, racial, governmental or gender separation from the larger group, often with demands for greater political autonomy and even for full political secession and the formation of a new state. Depending on their political situation and views, groups may refer to their organizing as independence, self-determination, partition or decolonization movements instead of, or in addition to, autonomist, separatist or secession movements. While some critics may equate separatism and religious segregation, racial segregation or sexual segregation, separatists argue that separation by choice is not the same as government-enforced segregation and serves useful purposes."

RL Crabb

Your indignation is duly noted, Steve, but what do you say to the Germans, the French, the Dutch, and other enlightened societies that are now trying to roll back their permissive immigration policies? Is Sarkozy a racist for banning the burka? Should Theo Van Gogh have been murdered for criticizing Islam?Wasn't it George who cited the examples of Switzerland and India as exceptions to the rule?

I don't believe all Muslims are terrorists. I even believe they have the right to build their mosque (which as I understand it, is more of a community center than a solitary monument to Islam) in lower Manhatten. But let's face it, as a religion and culture they have some growing up to do if they don't want to be hated and feared by the rest of the world.

In this wonderful crazy country I can draw a cartoon of Jesus in a thong with lipstick and eye shadow. Christians will be mad at me, but no one is going to cut my head off and burn my house down. If I draw Mohammad as the King of Heaven I'll be getting death threats and probably have to go into hiding in my own country. Just ask Salman Rushdie.

Does that make me a racist?

D. King

The big mistake was trying to insert Islam into Europe,
not the Arab culture, which is most gracious and
accommodating. Using an outside religion with
culture breaking doctrine was stupid, even by
progressive standards.

Michael Anderson

D. King wrote: "The big mistake was trying to insert Islam into Europe, not the Arab culture, which is most gracious and accommodating. Using an outside religion with culture breaking doctrine was stupid, even by progressive standards."

I don't think anyone was trying anything, it just happened. Migrations happen from source to target, when things at the source location start to really suck and the target looks somewhat, or a whole lot, better.

The Great Migration of blacks from the south to the cities of the east coast, Chicago, and the cities on the west coast from the 1920s through the 1940s was once thought to be largely economic. Upon closer inspection it is now known that it was because of the Jim Crow laws, lynchings, and a failed system of justice.

Yes, there is an American culture, but it is often viewed through rose-colored glasses. When I drive and fly across and around the Untied States, I see 4 separate countries: the south, the midwest, the east coast, and the west coast. Each of these regions has a unique history of expansion and settlement, and the partisans are "dug in."

We can either recognize this uniqueness and view it as a strength that binds together our national mission, or we can use it to fragment and divide our citizenry socially and politically.

We had better decide soon. The center cannot hold.

D. King

Rip Van Winkle said:

"...or we can use it to fragment and divide our citizenry socially and politically."

Where have you been?

George Rebane

Michael, I agree and have witnessed the more than nuanced distinction between our regional cultures. There are similarities in the cultural landscapes of the European cultures with which I am familiar. But none of these forms make a member of one region or cultural coloration dysfunctional as far as reliably predicting the social behaviors of the other regions.

Bob, those distinctions you point out are unfortunately true. Should a whole country rapidly bend its institutions to the sensibilities and will of a radically new culture, and in the process denigrate its own? According to my lights, the answer is no.

SteveF, a search of my post on the word 'demand' produces a null result. Can you be more specific when you cited me in quotes?

Mikey McD

Does it surprise anyone that the lefties are encouraging a culture which treats women with zero respect? Does it surprise anyone that the lefties are defending a culture who is called by their god to 'convert or kill?' Does it surprise anyone that the lefties domestic oil 'plan' forces us to deal with the hate filled Middle East? I was a lot more sensitive to the 'convert or kill' religion before I watched portions of several American BEHEADINGS in the name of allah (I was unable to stomach the entire footage beyond the 'allah this allah that' stage, before the 'hell' took place).

Steven Frisch

Bob, I will e-mail you separately with a response.

Account Deleted

I see in this conversation that a lot of folks are mis-applying what others are saying and talking off to different points. George is talking about the freedom of association, not forcing who can live where, or the govt. telling everyone how to live. The different cultures and religions can co-exist here, but the Constitution is the supreme law, and all will learn English as the requirement of citizenship. All govt. and mandated public functions will be conducted in English. Otherwise, folks are free to speak whatever language they like. Private newspapers, radio and TV etc, can be whatever language and culture one wants. The laws here were explicitly based on the Christian-Judeo culture and it has worked just fine in allowing for other cultures to peacefully blend in and co-exist for years. There were and will always be small frictions of cultures rubbing against each other that can be worked out within the existing framework. George is not advocating hate or that anyone be just like him. I find it most strange that when America attempts to live by the same norms of all other nations, we are called vile names, and yet the other nations are not considered bad for applying the same rules. Learning a common language and controlling access to sovereign borders has always been the norm, yet suddenly in only America this now is proof of hatred and bigotry.

Todd Juvinall

When I read responses like Frisch's regarding "tolerance" I am reminded of the Armenians murdered by the Turks at the beginning of the last century. There are estimates of one million murdered. We had a family of Armenian escapees living in Truckee and they had vivid memories of the slaughter of their people by the Muslim Turks. To this day there are repeated attempts in Congress to pass a resolution about the slaughter of Christian Armenians by the Muslims but it is squashed every time. Mr. Frisch is too politically correct and he he has no idea what is in store for he and his family if he voiced his opinion under a Muslim country rule. His ignorance is palpable when it comes to Islam.

Steven Frisch

I don't live in a Muslim country, I live in the USA.

I misapply nothing---George is a separatist pure and simple.

Dixon Cruickshank

Mr Frisch- so apparently this statement then vivdly labels the Muslims in this country and the countries of europe that have welcvomed them as ----- hateful bigots.

They do not come to assimulate, they come to colonize by their own words - believe them or not, some of us apparently believe them. You Mr Frisch seem to find some hidden nuance in their statements that they must mean something else.

"Well Bob, yes, if you chose your culture, and use law or social convention to enforce it, segregate it, protect it from outside influences, in any way, you are a hateful bigot."

They do not come to assimulate, they come to colonize by their own words - believe them or not, some of us apparently believe them. You Mr Frisch seem to find some hidden nuance in their statements that they must mean something else, I personally believe they mean exactly what they say.

"There are nieghborhoods in France and England right now that " white people don't go there", maybe you need to read some press from over there - AUS too.

Also how long before this begins here -
Labour: London borough becomes 'Islamic republic'


Dixon Cruickshank

sorry about the typo - forgot to delete when I moved it

Steven Frisch

Yes Dixon all follower of Islam are the same--all believe in Jihad--all come to colonize--all come to destroy the west. There is no variation--they are just on mass with no variation--they are subhuman.

If another nation (like China for example) treated Christianity that way you would consider it a human rights and religious freedom violation.

Every one of you who is advocating this position of separation are bigots, are anti-American, and are alien to American beliefs and culture.

In a perfect world we would round up every one of you and ship you to wherever you came from. Because you see I get to choose my culture, and use law to protect it. I want to be segregated. Of course we can't really do that can we? It would be too hard.

Cruickshank, that is Scots correct? If we can't just ship you back to Scotland, which would be the best case scenario, because I don't want any of you Scots around my children, perhaps all of you Scots could move to North Carolina. The Irish could take Mass. The Italians Illinois. The Jews, regardless of national origin because we all know they are more identified by their religion rather than nation, can take New York.

George where are you moving? Idaho?

Todd Juvinall

It appears Mr. Frisch is wspousing the ideas and practices of some form of fascism. His view of America is very misguided. I guess Frisch would put us into cattle cars and ship us folks who disagree with him to someplace else. Wow, and this guy gets taxpayer dollars? America is the land of assimilation, the melting pot as we were all told. Liberals have tried their best to damage our country by balkanizing us and now people like Frisch say we should go back to where we came from? My father and uncle both fought in the Pacific during WW2 and helped America defeat fascists. Perhaps Mr. Frisch's comments should be placed in the Sierra Sun for all to see what a real "progressive" actually thinks about his own country.

Barry Pruett

George said: "Should I not have a protected right to immerse myself in the culture of my choosing, and not be forced by the state to expose myself to cultures that I and others like me consider foreign and subtractive from our quality of life?"

Steve said: "The simple answer is no. You have no right to demand that you can 'live, work and raise my children among people who are like me.' You have no protected right to mono-culturism."

My first question to Steve is whether the first amendment to the Constitution protects the freedom of association?

Nuff said

Todd, you really add nothing to what reads as an intelligent debate. Your postings are low-hanging fruit in an otherwise insightful argument on the future of our country. I think you'd do well to just read along and educate yourself, rather than wasting any more of your time -- and ours -- with your pointless "points."

Nuff said

You have the freedom to associate with whom you like, but not to determine who moves in next door. Sure, you could isolate into the wilderness, but who's to say who can follow you?

Account Deleted

It seems that Steve F. is doing his best to validate one of George's points. If we try to have a conversation in this country about race relations or our treatment of other cultures in this country, there is always someone (or many) from the left that start denigrating the character of anyone who would bring up points of view that they don't like. You don't have to agree with him, but George is hardly a separatist and if he wanted to move to Idaho, he certainly has the means to do so. He has not advocated shipping anybody anywhere, and wishes only that the constitution be applied. No one is saying that Muslims are all bed, but are pointing out that there is a history of violence in the spread of that religion and that many of their leaders today are advocating more violence against others simply because they are not Muslim. Did Billy Graham preach hatred and violence? The Pope? The unanswered question still is - if the vast majority of Muslims are so peace loving, why do most of their biggest leaders continue to advocate terror and violence? We can not ask that question in this country in any of the Lame Stream Media outlets or any left-leaning forum without risking a withering personal attack or worse. Ask Juan.

Steven Frisch

Jeez Todd your intellectual shallows amaze me. Can't you tell when someone is using satire to make a point?

As Nuff said said, you can freely associate all you want, but you can't determine who moves next door--and I would add, where the mosque goes, whether your daughter marries a black man, whether gays can teach your children, who gets to vote, what language your shopkeeper speaks, or whether the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence march in the parade.

Consequently, you have no "protected right to immerse yourself by the culture of your choosing and not be forced by the state to expose myself cultures that I and others like me consider foreign...".

The state has an interest in equal protection, which means I am protected from your cultural separatism whenever it infringes on my rights.

Unless of course you change the Constitution or start a new Civil War (or as George would call it the War for Southern Independence).

That is why I am characterizing you guys as dangerous radicals. The only way you can get the society you are dreaming of is to do one of those two things. So just be out with it. Tell all of us now, how would you amend the Constitution to achieve your goals?

Enquiring minds want to know.

D. King

Steven Frisch

"That is why I am characterizing you guys as dangerous radicals."

Steve, be very quiet and get behind me.
I’ll protect you from these “dangerous radicals!”


That was a close one!
You don't want to piss them off, lest they
pull out their Chinese throwing doilies.

Account Deleted

Steve, please look up the "hyperbole" in the dictionary. George and the others on his side are not calling for any of the nonsense you claim. There is nothing about inter racial marriage, whether a gay can teach my child, (it's what he or she can teach my child) nor any other of the straw man arguments you pose. As to determining who can vote, you now have now gone off a cliff. There are long-standing and clear requirements for that, and it would be you who would have to change the Constitution for that. Could you please enlighten us with any thing concrete that George has advocated that would violate your rights?

George Rebane

Re the Muslim side-thread, please also see http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/07/and-they-are-our-neighbors.html and its extensive comment thread as it may reflect on cultural choice. In the same vein, view this YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded and its Quran references – Suras 2:106, 16:101, 17:86.

SteveF, I know that you do not want to hijack the topic of this post. So would you please cite or resolve my use of “demand”, of which you have here claimed twice that I was guilty. Its substitution in my posed question completely changes the tenor of what I am trying to communicate. But then, I guess you knew that.

Mikey McD

I don't want to be beheaded.

Todd Juvinall

Wow, looks like nuffsaid, the anonymous troll has struck again. Rather than discussing the issue, of course he/she is a coward for not putting his/her real name here, he/she attacks. I would say nuff is enuff, just another person with no guts from the left.Please take the advice you have given me for yourself.

SteveF, no, I must have missed the satire. I somply read your tripe and it was totally ridiculous. You call others radicals as if that is some slight. Well, the Founders were called radicals by King George and here we are.

Dixon Cruickshank

Steve yes I am a Scot - my father was born in Edinborough and came here as a child of 11 - am I very proud of my heritege abolutely. I am an American first, I do although enjoy the pipes and going to Dunedin which is a Scot enclave and you even can buy Kilts there. A sister city to Sterling and where my grandfather chose to retire from GM - wonder why since he was in Ohio when he worked ???????

But when they have the Scottish Days and Highland Games with beer in streets and dancers they don't exclude other Americans (even the Irish and English) from joining in - see Detroits Muslim Festival when Americans weren't allowed on their own sidewalks or streets - "you tube" has multiple video's for reference BTW so you can stick your rightous indignation - you my friend are under the impression as many are, there is a moderate muslim - there isn't, its a fragile fallicy

see the guy they brought in to the pentagon after 9/11 for lunch to discuss the issue - he's now head of Al-Quada - what could go wrong.......... you liberials will be the death of us - just say'in

Nuff said

I finally figured it out! "Dixon" is Dick Cheney!

Dixon Cruickshank

I kinda wish, he has been very sucessful but has a bad ticker - I have a great ticker and no money left after 2 X's - although that may expalin my lack of tolerence for stupid, which goes both ways.

Now on to the real subject of tolerence, this is not even their country - who the hell do theyt think they are?????

Mark Steyn has already beaten off one disgraceful attempt to silence him, and now faces a petty other:

Mark Steyn will be speaking on November 1st in a speech entitled “Head for the Hills: Why everything in your world is doomed.” Apparently, London-area Muslims didn’t like that idea too much.

Due to capacity constraints at the University of Western Ontario, the original venue for the event, we had booked the London Convention Centre (LCC,) London’s premiere conference facility. On Tuesday, I received a phone call from the LCC telling us that our venue had been pulled, and that Mark Steyn would not be permitted to speak there. The reason offered by the LCC was that they had received pressure from local Islamic groups, and they didn’t want to alienate their Muslim clients. It’s interesting to note that the LCC is owned by the City of London, and is therefore a government operation.

It’s interesting that a government-run business decided that freedom of speech was no longer a concept to be upheld, and even more interesting is the fact that the Muslim community in London is applying pressure to a company to not entertain a speaker when only a day earlier they made a statement to the press saying that they didn’t care about Steyn speaking and wouldn’t do anything to counter it, (except “charity work.")

Weaselly excuses are offered here.

The increasing attacks on freedom of speech in Western nations is alarming.

George Rebane

Dixon,this impact on inhibiting speech may be going on all over Europe. Our German friends spoke of not feeling free to discuss the Muslim situation openly. We did not meet with them after Merkel's speech - I hope it's better now. Of course we need look no further than our neck of the woods to witness the constant pressure from the local left to constrain speech. Hope Florida is enjoying a looser climate on free speech.

Flava Flav

The anti-modernity on display here is fascinating. The idea that ethnic / religious tribalism and geography-based cultural politics are the remedies to the emerging realities wrought by economic globalism and rapidly increasing connectivity is, frankly, Talibanesque. It suggests not only a fundamental misunderstanding of what is happening around the world, but - disturbingly - a petulant, fearful refusal to even try to understand, the act alone constituting a sort of "unclean" behavior or cultural capitulation. This is the Weltanschauung shared by cave-dwellers and prison gangs...

No role for late-stage capitalism or information network feedback effects in the (d)evolution of the nation state? Just Communists/ Bogeymen / Others? And... really? Americans are forced (by Castro? The UN? Al-Qaeda?) into heterogeneous living arrangements? Unless somehow you are chained to a radiator in Astoria, Queens, that notion is so preposterous I don't know where to begin.

Curious to posit an imaginary Red Fist behind the "compulsions" of the Invisible Hand but then I guess it really is hard to see...

D. King

Barry Pruett Said:

"My first question to Steve is whether the first amendment to the Constitution protects the freedom of association?"

Constitution Shmonstitution, it appears the government
will be choosing your roommates now.

I love to watch the progressive’s arrogance.


Dixon Cruickshank

Hey George I went back and read all that and remeber it now - what I found ironic is something that I posted back then before we knew anything about underwear bombers but has come to be. We are in fact checking Grannys underwear LOL

"The problem we have is we have let the camel stick his nose under the tent - and to control them we must submit to control too - not good. Kinda why granny from Indiana has to take her shoes off at the airport, next year somebody will have to check her underwear - eeeegads"

Steven Frisch

No one is trying to restrict your speech--we are saying that what you are saying is narrow minded, bigoted and dangerous--but no one is suggesting you have no right to say it.

Barry Pruett

My first question to Steve is whether the first amendment to the Constitution protects the freedom of association?

Todd Juvinall

I get a kick out of people who point fingers at others like Frisch does and calls them bigots when his own views are so extreme and obviously bigoted. It is called deflection in politics.

Steven Frisch

Of course the first amendment protects freedom of association--the point that I made when people asked about why SBC would spend time on a political issue--because I have a right to do so under the first amendment protection of freedom of speech and freedom of association.

You are free to associate all you want, as long as you do nothing to restrict anyone else from being in your midst, in your neighborhood, in your stores, to worship, the rub elbows with you etc.

The problem is that what George suggests can not be achieved in modern society unless you restrict someone else's right.

George Rebane

SteveF - I believe your notion of the Constitution's 'freedom of association' is in error. The association that the Constitution protects is one that is desired by all the parties to the association. The Consitution does not guarantee your ability to define and implement an 'I'll associate with you whether you like it or not', and then have it be enforced by the state's bayonet.

But I agree that the notion of association has gotten more than a bit hazy over the last 40 years. That is one reason I raised the point of this post and recommend that we revisit the entire idea of what kind of associations should be protected that contribute to a beneficial society and the perpetuation of a sovereign nation-state.

George Rebane

"Anti-modernity" Ms Flava Flav? Does that mean that all the mono-cultural conflicts around the world are then comprised of and energized by more than a billion or two "cave-dwellers and prison gangs"? Should this uneducable segment of the world's populaton should be dealth with in a more direct manner?

However, you do bring a useful perspective of how the 'new moderns' look at the kinds of social orders that the state should impose on us knuckle draggers. In that I welcome your participation, and please do expound on your ideas about the influences of Castro and the Red Fist(?!) on our body politic. Perhaps we have overlooked some important factors here.

Todd Juvinall

Steve Frisch must be a fan of forced school busing?

Dixon Cruickshank

No name calling, I would like to hear Steve's response to George without any deflections

Mikey McD

Flava Flav- Inquiring minds want to know "what IS happening around the world." I see the BRICs (etc) embracing capitalism (and the 'golden rule' social contract/Invisible Hand) while the anti-progress Middle East seems intent on 'encouraging' (convert or die) the infidels of the world to join them in their 3rd world quality of life (women's suffrage, poverty, hate/terror dogma etc). "Americans are forced into heterogeneous living arrangements?" forced by birthrates and politically correct BS (the beheadER is protected while the beheadED is silenced).

Mikey McD

Religion of Peace...?!?!!!

GAZA (Reuters) – Tens of thousands of supporters of the militant Islamic Jihad movement rallied in the streets of Gaza on Friday, chanting "Death to America" and "Death to Israel."

Senior leaders of the ruling Islamist group, Hamas, joined the open-air gathering, the largest for years in honor of Islamic Jihad with up to 100,000 attending according to its organizers."


George Rebane

Thanks Mikey, these kinds of reports are eschewed by the progressive elite. It does not fit their well-ordered worldview (or weltanschauung as they would have it).

Mikey McD

To get our progressives hot and bothered 'they' would need to shout something more horrific than "Death to America"... something like "health care is not a right" or "Keynes is wrong" or "Who is John Galt?" might do the trick. :).

RL Crabb

Hamas has been feeding on the plight of the Palestinians for a long time, but the Zionists share the blame. How would you react if one day a Maidu showed up on your doorstep and told you that the Great Spirit promised your property to him, and to reinforce the claim, burned your house and crops?

George Rebane

Bob, primacy of ownership has always been the problem for all peoples for all of time. And the solution has always been 'the greater force' prevails. Upon closer inspection we find that it was the desired solution that drove the rationalization of some form of primacy as being the just cause for the use of force. Social Darwinism? It was ever thus.

Mikey McD

Sore losers.

Crabb, are you suggesting that my children (and me/you for that matter) are guilty enough to die at the hands of the 'convert or kill' crowd because of a 60+ year old real estate battle which is (thankfully) thousands of miles away?

RL Crabb

"Sore losers"...As I recall, twas the Jews who were driven from Palestine a few thousand years ago. It took a World War and a UN mandate to get their foot back in the door.

It's a complicated mess, for sure. Too complicated to hash out in a few paragraphs. I prefer the Jews over the Arabs, because they have a sense of humor. But that doesn't mean I'm blind to the injustice that is at the heart of all the religious squabbling today.

I may have some libertarian leanings, but I don't endorse the kind of dog eat dog philosophy you seem to enjoy, Mikey.

Mikey McD

"sore losers" should not imply my applause for any of the hateful actions/plunders/wars in the Middle East (regardless of religion or infidel status). I was simply affirming (though not as eloquently as Rebane's 9:35am comment) that the stronger side has prevailed. And in summary, I don't think the under 60 yr old crowd in America should be targeted ("death to america") for the actions of others 60+ years ago.

RL Crabb

As stated here many times, I have no love for the jihadist/sharia faction of the muslim community. I certainly don't claim any responsibility for their attitude toward our past foreign policy since I either hadn't been born, was too young to vote, or didn't vote for Nixon. Unfortunately, our predessors chose to sweep our lofty principles under the rug when it was more convenient to overthrow an elected government and install ruthless dictators to further our aims. They haven't forgotten about it.

George Rebane

Admitted Bob, that we have helped overthrow legitimate governments that didn't want to play ball with us as we thought they should. (I think installing/maintaining Batista in Cuba was one of the first.) But I don't know where one goes with that. Is it a preamble to a prescription for a period of penance?

Given a desire to pull back from the world and still look after our national interests, how do we proceed? To suggest that we can achieve our international aims through the use of naked diplomacy, is naive beyond Jimmy Carter. History shows that the pen is mightier than the sword only to the extent that it can invoke a bigger sword (else the scribbler's head winds up on a pike).

Should we try to implement that most famous and effective strategy for co-operation called 'tit for tat'? Who do you tit if the tat comes from a putatively nationless source that is sponsored by, perhaps, a consortium of nations? Every alternative response is either vicious and/or vilifiable.

But again, there must be a purpose for recounting America's modest history of destabilizing other governments - what is it?

Dixon Cruickshank

Hey guys since were on the mideast - I also thought Gaza was a miserable dirt pit of dispair - per the MSM - ran across this tidbit and it blew me away.


George Rebane

Good piece Dixon, we have to remember that to the ruling class we are just sheeple.

Michael Anderson

George, Mikey, Bob, et al...

People around the world just want peace and to raise their families, food on the table, roof over the head, maybe the kids will have a better life.

It's in the human genetic makeup. Sure, some .002 per cent are wack job sociopaths and will create havoc with everything they do. But everyone else is just trying to get along. However, once you kill a member of their family? You now have an enemy for life. That enemy will assume the behavior of an inchoate sociopath.

This was the tragedy of the George Bush years, and Vietnam for that matter. Our fed. gov't remains totally clueless on how this all works. And I am not talking about anything so craven as "It Takes a Village to Raise a Child," or whatever.

Extreme religion comes from deprivation, caused by outside forces removing access to basic needs (not wants). Then these deprivations carry over to the next generations--remember, the Saudis who performed 9-11 were well-off spoiled brats settling so-called past debts.

War is asynchronous now. The more hardware you throw at the problem, the bigger chance you have at losing a big city to nuke or chem.

Everything you know is wrong. Stop trying to win this war with Maginot strategies from the ancient past. You will either work the hard lines around the edges and come up with a solution that satisfies no one, or you will achieve pockets of annihilation. This is how the 21st century will play out.

Game on.

George Rebane

Not to disagree Michael, but the point of my post is that even before the problems of hunger and shelter are solved, people have and always will want to build and live in an environment of trust and potential so that they can reliably get their next meal and stay sheltered. Humans seem to have minimal specifications for such environments. But as we have seen, these are not very negotiable.

Todd Juvinall

As soon as people have a full stomach and a roof over their heads, they then begin coveting their neighbors possessions and wives. Humans are too predictable.

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