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23 November 2010

Comments

Jeff Peline

George,
The issue is not one of censorship — and never has been. It is about providing a balance of views. You know, like providing Steve Frisch's view on Prop. 23 to provide balance to yours. In that case, KVMR eventually got it right.

Account Deleted

It's a lost cause, George. It looks like Jeff read about 2 words in your post and responded with a typically fact free response. The situation with KVMRs ongoing programming supporting the idea of the need for govt control of green house gas emission has been explained to Jeff. The one time they presented a contrary view was your editorial. It's about a 10,000 to one ratio and that just isn't fair in Jeff's mind. Jeff's statement about censorship never being an issue is as baffling as it is frightening. He is perfectly aware of the fact that there are voices calling for silencing those that express conservative views in this country and elsewhere and he doesn't consider it to be censorship. The best I can say about his reply is that it actually validates your original post.

Jeff Peline

Posting here is always a wast of time.

Steven Frisch

Hey George how about giving back your social security, government pension, medicare and your senior discount?
A little bit of socialism is tainting you as a credible voice of libertarianism.

While you are at it you can stop posting your twisted neo-fascist point of view on KVMR since it is subsidized by the government.

Complain, complain complain....

Barry Pruett

Turn on the light and the cockroaches scurry! Are Frisch and Pelline being defensive...I did not read their names in the blog post. LOL

Bob Hobert

"Posting here is always a wast of time."

Maybe you need an editor?

Jeff Peline

Lots of pent-up anger from the local "wingnut" contingent this morning. I merely pointed out the difference between censorship and balance.

Barry Pruett

Thanksgiving is coming...you should let go of your anger and embrace your fellow man!

Steven Frisch

I thought you guys wanted to make that illegal? while claiming to be the party of small government!

Yet another example of the Baby State--people who are uncomfortable with other peoples love.

Barry Pruett

Man...you and Pelline are angry today. LOL. Conservatives are not all of the same stripe like liberals. I was a competitive gymnast in college and have a ton of very good friends who are gay. I have no problem with gay relationships.

Barry Pruett

To respond to your query George - it has always been about censorship. Liberals want to get rid of Rush and Foxnews. Liberals hate that The Union is not a liberal mouthpeice. Local liberlas attempt to bully the right to stop speech. To control the people...one must control the media - see Pravda.

Larry Wirth

You're right, Jeff! Your posts are a waste of our time...

Todd Juvinall

What I find fascinating about liberals is their denial of the truth. Of course they censor. Mao, Stalin, Cuba, North Korea, Albania (when it was the last coommie holdout in Europe) and the rest. Control the media and allow only left-think. Why did we have radio free Europe? Amazingly, Pelline and the cook/rent-seeker have brainwashed themselves in believing it is balance! No, when Jay Rockefeller says to the whole world last week that FOX and MSNBC should be zapped, you cannot deny the liberals want censorship. We on the right want more speech not less. Give the country more MSNBC's not less. The left want's more MSNBC's and no FOX. That is the difference between the fascist left and the freedom loving right in America. George has hit the nail on the head.

Mikey McD

This post is dead on. If NPR provides a desired service then they will have no trouble securing private funding (via ads, sponsorships, etc). It has been years since I listened to radio, but, in other local media I give kudos to Jeff Ackerman at The Union for providing a top notch service without tax payer charity.

Dixon Cruickshank

George,
The issue is not one of censorship — and never has been. It is about providing a balance of views. You know, like providing Steve Frisch's view on Prop. 23 to provide balance to yours. - Jeff

Is that why most people cannot post on your blog? because your so open minded to fair and balanced - pleeaasse

you are such the hypocrit, but you right to a point, your posts are usually a waste of bandwidth

Greg Goodknight

It looks like Issa is gearing up for some oversight hearings on the subject.

So Jeffie, Stevie... where do *you* think the missing warming-in-the-pipeline is hiding? It isn't in the seas, it isn't in the air, it isn't on dry land. Think maybe the evil Lord Xenu's Thetans have it?

Dixon Cruickshank

I think its " up somewhere"

Todd Juvinall

You guys are great! Pelline and the cook remind me of Masters of the Universe. Skeletor and his minions. Some non college graduates beat them. Hardi har har! I bet those two think we think this is real. Just watch.

Greg Goodknight

It took a refinement of Anna Hayne's pestering tactics, but on another blog Jeff finally revealed his BA from Cal was in Rhetoric. Yes, he has a BA in BS. Fits him well but it does mean his Master's in Journalism just makes him more effective than most in spreading the BS far and wide.

The cook has a BA from Cal in PoliSci. Given that he needed to make a living, cooking was probably a good idea until he figured out how to make money off of politics.

Paul Emery

George

Can you give me a few specific examples of local censorship that led to this statement.

"silencing of conservative/libertarian voices that have followings which the liberals cannot hope to attract."

A half dozen will do.

Dixon Cruickshank

Pelines Blog for starters

Barry Pruett

ditto

Paul Emery

That's one, assuming he restricts access. Hardly a trend. I hate generalizations without specific examples. That leaves nothing to talk about

D. King

Mary D. Nichols...no questions please!

D. King

Central Valley Water.

D. King

Fish and Game......Prove the frog is not there ban on fish stocking.

D. King

Opt out on the BID(how's that working out?)

D. King

Ban smoking in the park (those poor woodland creatures filling up on butts!)

D. King

What's next...only the progressive mind knows!

Paul Emery

I thought this was about local media censorship by the Liberal media. What do these examples have to do with it? George, please explain what you were trying to say.

George Rebane

Paul, I did not specify local censoring other than the countless calls by liberals for the Union and KVMR to stop my commentaries. I for my part would encourage more leftwingers like Pelline to join in the fray of ideas rather than competing with the online Union on newslets and scooplets. Maybe Pelline or Frisch could also write a regular Union column in which they would not have to cloak progressive ideology and opinion behind their 'middle of the road' glasses, nose, and mustache. Therein you can see an application of the topic of my post.

D. King

Forcing an action or an opt in, is censorship.

D. King

opt in...sorry...opt out.

Jeff Peline

If The Union or KVMR think they can grow their readership by running "fringe" commentary from George Rebane, more power to them. To date, his "causes" — Prop. 23, his political endorsements (from Barry Pruett to John Spencer) or bashing of the Sierra Business Council — aren't getting much traction. Nobody cares what he thinks. What's the value proposition? Alienating the majority at the expense of the minority? Why not run some commentary from the schools or a business person? It's a business decision, not censorship. As for me, I'm just looking for some balance.

Barry Pruett

For left leaning programming from KVMR (no offense Paul), George is the balance...and you wany him silenced. Look up censorship in the dictionary. LOL

Paul Emery

George

Countless calls by Liberals to stop your commentaries on KVMR? I have had about three calls to date and not one has asked us to take you off the air. where did you get that information? Who are they calling? Not us.

Paul Emery

Barry Was that me you referred to that wants George silenced?

Todd Juvinall

When I had a call in show for four years on KNCO we always had sprited debate. The libs would call in and thank god for a five second delay. Just nasty trolls. I can't tell you how many times they tried to get me booted. Same when I did op=eds and the TV show. The left is always trying to boot contra thought. They cannot compete head to head. As we can see Pelline and the Cook don't add much to the conservative blogs except liberal vitriol.

Account Deleted

Paul, the original post was clearly not limited to local media and yet you and Jeff are trying to make George defend his point based solely on your new made up criteria. You then deliberately mis-quote George and again demand proof of something he did not say. Jeff's above postings are actually proving George's point.
Your posts are just sad. You know perfectly well that the overwhelming view at KVMR and the programs you run are left to far left. There is nothing wrong with that and you are entitled to your views. For Jeff to demand that every time George gets 5 minutes there has to be "balance" is laughable were it not so dangerous. Hows about we get the FCC to start making KVMR "balance" all the left wing blather with absolute equal time from George and Company? How would you like it? No better than Fox being threatened with "equal time" and "balance". So please, lets all have more talk and more diversity of views not less. Balance is baloney, freedom of speech is paramount.

Barry Pruett

Paul...no...of course not. I was writing to Jeff.

Paul Emery

Scott Can you tell me how I misquoted George?


"Paul, I did not specify local censoring other than the countless calls by liberals for the Union and KVMR to stop my commentaries"

I only commented that there have been no calls to KVMR to stop his commentaries.

Thanks for the clarification Barry

George Rebane

Paul, the innumerable calls for my being silenced are found on the online Union, on RR (see above), and the local leftwing blogs. That you have had so few on KVMR (as you informed me before) is heartening. Nevertheless, the record stands as it stands here and across the land. It is the left attempting to silence the right in their search for "fairness" and "balance" (how many times have Pelline and company used that word?) that is constantly in the news and the topic of books. I am not aware of conservatives or libertarians attempting to silence the socialists, but look forward to being enlightened. Such asymmetry is a defining characteristic of the liberal mind.

RR is now going into its fourth year while having been constantly hammered by the far left calling its content and author irrelevant (and worse) to their larger scheme of things. Yet somehow this content seems sufficiently timely, different (unique?), and interesting enough to give rise to some fairly erudite and engaging discussion threads.

I am grateful for being able to provide a forum for a wide spectrum of ideas and counterpoints. I will be the first to admit that this blog is not, nor does it seek to be, a harbor for shallow draft vessels with short anchor chains. It simply gives them no comfort, and yet they return.

Paul Emery

George

Can you direct me to any examples in the Union that called for you being "silenced" on KVMR? This is pretty close to home and I would like to know more. Also, even on this blog I recall no examples asking you be silenced or taken off the air. Some hefty critiques to be sure but and some requests for equal time to respond to your ideas but I don't recall any calls for your removal from KVMR or the Union. I'd sure like to see some examples.

This whole thing really puzzles me and generally reeks of self aggrandizement.

George Rebane

Paul, you can do your own research on the comment threads to my Union columns. From what has been forwarded to me, Pelline's blog regularly recommends my replacement from the Union and KVMR.

There are more instances on RR than I can recount. And even on this comment thread -
"While you are at it you can stop posting your twisted neo-fascist point of view on KVMR since it is subsidized by the government."

If you are deaf to Pelline's calling for my replacement on the public media over the last two years, then you clearly had more important things to do, or ... . The evidence is in the record, and if you're interested you will do your own research. I am amazed that you would find any of this to be either arcane or hard to fathom.

Another good place to start would be to search on 'George Rebane' at either the online Union or Pelline's blog (I have no idea how well their search functions work). But now that you're interested, I will note and email you instances I come across in the future that may satisfy your curiosity.

"self aggrandizement"??, that's an impossibility on a blog that is pronounced "irrelevant" and one that even fewer people read.

In sum, do I detect that you're unfamiliar with or dispute the censorship calls from the left vs the right? Or is it just that you're seeking local evidence? or both?


Account Deleted

Reply to Paul's request -
George wrote "Paul, I did not specify local censoring other than the countless calls by liberals for the Union and KVMR to stop my commentaries." Since there have apparently been few or no complaints that you are aware of at KVMR, you then changed the statement to only mention KVMR and you left out the Union. You are trying to argue against George's main thesis in his original post by reducing the frame of reference down to a very limited set of circumstances. And I will ask you again - how would you like to have KVMR be made to submit it's programming schedule to a govt agency for approval? How would you like to watch a Senator on national TV talk about how he would like to have the FCC take KVMR off the air?

Paul Emery


George
It seems that your issue is with three or four critics that write often and may seem like a crowd. Your use of the word innumerable doesn't take into account the rather small group that may be repeating themselves often enough that they seem like a mass movement. Understandably I am personally interested when you use your commentary KVMR as an example of the crusade against you by those who wish you removed from the air, In all of our conversations you have never mentioned to me that there is a movement to remove your commentary from the news as you imply in this blog. That's why I was so surprised to see this in your posting. Pellines blog hardly represents the gathering hoards that you suggest.
I will indeed search the Union site for Rebane-KVMR and let you know what I find.

Paul Emery

Scott

I cannot speak of the calls to remove George from the Union but I can speak of KVMR and the fact that there have been no calls to do so. I would know.

George Rebane

"movement"?? I have no such knowledge or make such a claim. You are probably right that the local group recommending my removal is relatively small, I use 'countless' in describing the instances not the number of people. Although in the Union a lot of such exhortations have come from people using labels or internet names - hard to tell.

But please don't think that I feel beleagured by all this hew and cry from the left, I don't. When an ideologue steps out and provides commentary on issues, s/he had better be prepared for some serious blowback. No matter the content of their counters, I am grateful that they spell my name correctly.

This post is not a complaint about how I am treated, it is a cry against the visible forces that continue the attempt to silence their opposition through disingenuous calls for 'balance' and 'fairness' that blatantly attack the First Amendment. In this storm I am but a blade in the wind. If my thoughts have some moment that elicits thoughtful response, what more can I ask?

Dixon Cruickshank

Paul without getting into the calls to your station about George I find it hard to believe as a media person you haven't seen this. The calls from the local left - blogs and the union against George and Russ - not to mention - Beck, O'Rielly, Fox, Hannity, Palin and the FCC nationally - I give you much more credit than that, lets not get stupid on us - k

Steven Frisch

I have never called for silencing George's comments, I have critiqued them as neofascist screeds that unfairly attack other people and ideas and imply that anyone who does not think like him is a communist, but I have never called for him to be silenced for his ideas...period. I think he should be removed because none of his main points have a factual basis, they inaccurate, divisive and hateful and don't live up to the standards of KVMR...however I have never called the station and said this, and I have encouraged others to keep listening to KVMR regardless of George's commentaries.

By the way Greg, perhaps because of my defense of Berkeley when people are attacking Jeff's education as a negative you got the impression I went there. I did not. I went to San Francisco State after moving to California from Chicago.

Account Deleted

I wake this morning and return to the conversation. Paul asked me for a reply and got one. I have asked Paul for a reply (twice) and he ignores me. I have posted about this before and it seems to not change. The left either will not or can not engage in the give and take of a discussion of issues. sad.

George Rebane

A current version of Exhibit A. And please check the veracity of every accusation made.

http://jeffpelline.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/is-kvmr-listening-to-its-members/

Jeff Peline

Don't worry George. As Paul said it's only a handful of people who feel this way. LOL!

Todd Juvinall

The last comment by the cook leads one to wonder of his mental state. I read it twice and if he is serious he needs help.

Todd Juvinall

Just perused the liberal blog and I think the head blogger has gone off the cliff. He has put his nose right up the keister of the cook and is now promoting the cook's reference to "baby state". He is also attacking George and then claims he, the head blogger, does not name call. Well, I think he has lost a grip on reality on both counts. I may not have a parent paid education like them but I can spot a ideological fraud a mile away.

Steve Enos

Fox News... Fair and Balanced... funny!

Barry Pruett

Paul: It is clear that this handful of extreme liberal locals wants to intimidate KVMR in an attempt to silence a conservative voice. Generally, the coonservative point of view on media in general is to err on the side of more speech - not less. I do not care what is on the radio, as I make my decisions with the tuner. You do what you do and do it unabashedly. You, George, Russ, Ackerman...you are what make our country great - diversity of thought. Bullying in an attempt to censor is oh so - tyrannical.

Paul Emery

Scott

I did reply last night at 9:20.

Account Deleted

Well, sort of to one point. And that was only in reply to the question you had asked me. You still haven't replied to how you would feel about submitting KVMR programming to govt. control. You had said you were puzzled over the whole issue of censorship. So please tell us how having the FCC coming in and shutting KVMR down because they don't like your left wing slant would be puzzling to you. It's already being openly talked about by elected officials and it's done all the time in other countries. LEFT wing countries. It's not happened here because of us crazy Constitution-hugging right wing-nuts. I am happy that there are stations like KVMR that can openly broadcast their views unmolested by the govt. I wish the left could see that is what George's original post is about. Once the "balancer" gets in power, do you really think that only Fox and KFBK and the like will be affected? We will all lose.

Greg Goodknight

Stephen, sorry I got your alma mater mixed up with Jeff's.

When my curiosity was piqued by noticing in multiple places that Jeff was proud to mention his Master's in Journalism from Northwestern, and wore proudly his Cal Alumni status but always seemed to leave off his Bachelor's major subject. I joked that maybe it was Communications, and Jeff eventually revealed that it was in fact Rhetoric. Silly me, while it does sound better than Communications, Rhetoric is Berkeley's name for the same thing.

So now I can see why the former Union editor is not crowing about his BA in BS. It might even be the easiest major at Cal.

More apropros to the subject here, Jeff is currently using his blog to rouse the rabble and have George removed from KVMR. One even calls George a 'neofascist' which I think says more about that poster's politics (and Jeff's) than it does George's.

Nuff said

Hey Todd. You got a problem with chefs? Beneath you? Belittling Mr. Frisch because of his former occupation? You might have been a former supervisor in this community, but rest assured your flavor of bullying commentary is an embarrassment. Though you clearly can't grasp the concept, thinking lobbing bombs like Rush Limbaugh does all morning on KNCO is way to actually discuss issues. I am thankful that this community has raised the bar when it comes to its leadership, because clearly you are out of your league when it comes to offering a respectful perspective on local issues. The fact you can't see what's wrong with your approach is pathetic. Call him "the cook"? Fine. You then, sir, are "the idiot".

Paul Emery

Okay Scott

I was restricting my comments to local issues, something I know something about. As for the idea that the Feds will swoop in and take over KVMR I have to admit I am not that concerned about it at this time.

NotEnough Said

Nuff Said (mom loved you enough to give you a neat name), Mr. Frisch called himself a cook-so um- what does that make him? LOL

Todd Juvinall

Nuffsaid, you are so funny. No one cares what you say you don'y even put your name here. You are just a tick on the butt on Pelline and Frisch, have a nice day.

George Rebane

Barry Pruett expands the discussion on liberal attitudes on censorship and KVMR 'balance' in a post on his Inside NC Politics here
http://barrypruett.blogspot.com/2010/11/liberal-censorship-defined.html

Pelline states that he will ask KVMR (why not the Union?) to do a bi-weekly commentary to "balance" mine. The decision of allowing additional leftwingers to use certain media outlets should be made by the media managers who choose content based on their more intimate knowledge of their philosophy and audience. The seminal question here is how many liberal voices does it take to balance one conservative four minute commentary every other week?

For the record, I was asked by the Union to write a monthly commentary on topics of my choosing. And I was asked by KVMR to do a bi-weekly commentary on topics of my choosing. (I was also asked by NCTV to do the Numeracy and Singularity series, and continue to work with them on future programming.) These outlets made their decisions on the basis of what they perceived was my contribution to the overall spectrum of content they provide. I am provided a voice on these outlets by their managements, and continue my contributions only at their pleasure. For that I am grateful.

Todd Juvinall

George, it takes many many liberals to balance a conservative. When I was running CABPRO back in the 90's, KVMR, KNCO and the others would invite me and when I showed up there were three or four of the opposition to debate me. Humbly I say, I whipped them good.

They can't compete with you and you proved it when you took apart Frisch. Pelline is next, I can't hardly wait!

Paul Emery

George
You are a welcome as one of of KVMR's 200 member volunteer broadcaster team,

Todd

While I cannot recall with any clear recollection of you singly taking on and whipping teams of liberals on KVMR and KNCO I do remember your high density development proposed for the Glenbrook Basin getting a pretty solid thumping by the Conservative Board of Supervisors in the mid 90's.

Account Deleted

Paul, I'm glad you feel confident in your Constitutional rights. This would be an appropriate day for you to bow your head and give thanks to George and the rest of us right wing extremists that ensure those rights. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Russ Steele

Steven Frisch and his lefty fellow travler could not wait to launch a retalitory attack on George. Details here. (Warrning link is to a liberial progressive site with a lot of hateful crap.) Here is a sample comment:

Sharon Rose
Thank you Steve. Well expressed. This is exactly why he shouldn’t be allowed to continue to spew his twisted untruths throughout our community. If he [George] has a voice on KVMR I will no longer support that station. We all get enough untruths from The Union, Fox, and hate radio. Enough is enough.

Ah, the tolerant left, they provide so much insight in to the real problem. They could not recognize the truth if it bopped them on the head.

George Rebane

What attack are they "retaliating"?

Steven Frisch

That was not a retaliatory attack. I am actually defending George's right to total free speech, and then telling it as I see it. The same right you all want, right?

As far as I am concerned the more George talks, the less credibility his position has.

I am a little tired of being the subject of comments over here, and on Russ's blog. I come here because I refuse to let your vileness to go unchallenged, because I believe, as Martin Niemoller did, that there has to be some one left to speak up.

I would much rather rationally discuss important issues, but it seems you guys can't do it without attacking people personal histories and calling people communists, fascists, idiots, collectivists, rag heads, and outsiders.

By the way, I am not ashamed of being a chef. I find it hard to believe that Todd would be such an elitist snob since hew as nothing but a self aggrandized nail pounder. One tradesman calling another a commoner does not really mean much to me.

My suggestion would be we start the 'great divide' right here an now. I never come back to any of these sites if you never mention my name again. I never post about you if you never post about me. You don't copy and paste stuff from Jeff's site in order to attack him personally if he never mentions you by name (I have no idea if he would even go along with this). All blog hosts agree to eliminate personal mentions.

It would sure make these blogs much more productive. Then we might actually be able to discuss issues and find areas where we could act together to make our communities a better place, like civilized people.

George Rebane

Happy Thanksgiving Steve.

Steven Frisch

Yeah well it appears that you thought enough of "Thanksgiving" to post the following bullshyte description of the holiday:

"Long before the failure of modern socialism, the earliest European settlers gave us a dramatic demonstration of the fatal flaws of collectivism. Unfortunately, few Americans today know it. The Pilgrims at Plymouth Colony organized their farm economy along communal lines. The goal was to share the work and produce equally.
That's why they nearly all starved."

You can describe the hardship of our founders as a failure of socialism, a political theory that did not even exist in the day, thus perverting the meaning of the holiday, and I can not call a kettle black on this hallowed day?

What about the deal buddy?

Todd Juvinall

Posting from Safeway before heading to the T Day dinner.

Paul why the dig on my attempt to build affordable housing in 1993-4 for those less well off? Is that the best you can do? And, if you are a true journalist, you remember it was used by a certain Supervisory running for re-election and his campaign manager as a way to defeat his opponent by smearing the project as rampant growth. It didn't work for the election (I helped the winner)but it did deny 23 families an affordable home.

I debated many lefties and as I said, they would show up three to one and I usually whipped them. Sorry you can't recall that, but there were many.

Frisch, the cook, you are a funny guy. You and Pelline come over to these blogs and name call then run and hide while complaining you are the recipient of name calling. They have a name for this, narcissism. We will be working hard to defund grants and loans from government since we the taxpayers have to bring some sense back to the running of the state and country. If non-profits get defunded, just think of it as their part to help balance the budget. We sane people on the right listen to the left's whining and it is getting pretty silly.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Russ Steele

George,

No deal with Frisch! I tried that route with Jeff P and he could not hold back and started commenting again on NCMW. Look at how many times Frisch left this blog is huff, declaring he would never post here again, only to return in a few weeks. It is obvious that what you write here produces liberal stress and they just cannot constrain themselves. I think is wonderful that they respond, as their comments are very insightful to how the liberal mind works. A learning moment for all the reader come here.

You wrote: What attack are they "retaliating"? Their perceived attack on the liberal mind.

Paul Emery

Todd
I bring up the topic of Glenbrook to put some historical perspective on your chest thumping.

One of my favorite graffiti's "There's nothing better for religion than a good healthy devil"

Your project did not win the support of the conservative BOS because it was a bad project pure and simple. I'm sure there are those who would step up with details that I don't have in front of me but I recall it was 23 houses to be built in around three acres of land. While Fran Gratten did defeat Jim Weir by less than 40 votes in 1994 the "Remember Glenbrook" flag was hoisted by the environmentally inclined Supervisor candidates that in 1996 and 2000 that eventually took over the Board of Supervisors. Glenbrook was the "healthy devil" so to speak that was the Alamo for the unlikely takeover. On the other hand NH2020 was the healthy devil in later elections that turned things around the other way.

That's recent history as I see it.

Barry Pruett

In the New World, they wanted to erect a New Jerusalem that would not only be religiously devout, but be built on a new foundation of communal sharing and social altruism. Their goal was the communism of Plato’s Republic, in which all would work and share in common, knowing neither private property nor self-interested acquisitiveness.

What resulted is recorded in the diary of Governor William Bradford, the head of the colony. The colonists collectively cleared and worked land, but they brought forth neither the bountiful harvest they hoped for, nor did it create a spirit of shared and cheerful brotherhood.

The less industrious members of the colony came late to their work in the fields, and were slow and easy in their labors. Knowing that they and their families were to receive an equal share of whatever the group produced, they saw little reason to be more diligent their efforts. The harder working among the colonists became resentful that their efforts would be redistributed to the more malingering members of the colony. Soon they, too, were coming late to work and were less energetic in the fields.

Realizing that another season like those that had just passed would mean the extinction of the entire community, the elders of the colony decided to try something radically different: the introduction of private property rights and the right of the individual families to keep the fruits of their own labor.

The Plymouth Colony experienced a great bounty of food. Private ownership meant that there was now a close link between work and reward. Industry became the order of the day as the men and women in each family went to the fields on their separate private farms. When the harvest time came, not only did many families produce enough for their own needs, but they had surpluses that they could freely exchange with their neighbors for mutual benefit and improvement.

http://www.forfreedomssake.com/blog/2009/11/the-real-meaning-of-thanksgiving-the-triumph-of-capitalism-over-collectivism/

Barry Pruett

Collectivism was a failure before Marx and the Soviet Union...yet Frisch advocates collectivism. Someone needs a history lesson. LOL.

Steve Frisch

I'm a big fan of private ownership and private property. But for your crew to forget the origins of biblical communism in this country, and fail to recognize that it did not come from a political/ideological definition of socialism, but rather from a theological origin for early American settlers, as John Stoessel's commentary misinterprets, just shows me that most of you are not reading history.

Is this really your source of American history? The "forfreedomssake" blog.

Read some real academic American history and come back and tell me about the theological origins of biblical communism and it's practice in Puritan communities.

I mean really, I know you are all pretty anti-intellectual, but the least you could do if you are going to use our own country as an example is use some real sources.

By the way, the Roanoke Colony did not practice any form of collective farming, and disappeared. The Jamestown colony had the same problem. To equate the difficulty of early colonists to collectivism is not only illogical, because there are dozens of examples of other colonies struggles, but it is a perversion of history.

This is exactly the case of selective,twisted,inaccurate, representation of information that I expressed my distaste or over at NCMW. You guys just flat out lie, and lie and lie.

The early failure of the Plymouth colony to thrive had more to do with the conditions on the land itself, and their unfamiliarity with how to work the land since Puritans were village dwellers rather than farmers,than anything else.

You want me to cite sources, I can do it all day long.

Steve Frisch

Barry I am flat out sick of you using the "collectivist" label as a cudgel. I am a committed, flat out, unabashed believer in capitalism. I always prefer a market solution to a government solution. I have owned my own businesses, worked in the private sector, and hired hundreds of people.

When you guys get your history from paid sources whose main purpose is to revise history to fit your ideological purposes, it smacks of totalitarianism to me.

Paul Emery

They should have waited till a developer real estate agent, mortgage company and bank landed first and subdivided the land for sale after evicting the Native Americans. Then, if you couldn't buy in with a 20% down payment they could put you back on the boat and send you home as an illegal immigrant.

Barry Pruett

Frisch is a capitalist. Actions speak louder than words. Environmentalism = Collectivism. Please take your rhetoric over to Pelline's blog where it is listened to and respected.

Todd Juvinall

Paul, you can have your own history if you like but I was there. You are dreaming. Besides, it met all the codes and your leftwing pals used it as a way to defeat Fran Grattan. Din't work, and 23 families were denied an affordable home at a time the eco nuts were pushing high density infill. So, sorry, you don't have a clue.

Steven Frisch

I love how Barry ignores the point. Bottom line, you guys don't know shyte about history because all you read is people who agree with you. I may not have an ivy league education, but I read a hell of a lot of history, and you guys are pathetic.

Greg Goodknight

Frisch and Pelline are quick to label as liars folks who interpret the same facts in a different direction. The fact remains that Thanksgiving has for years been spun in a mythic communitarian fantasy, and that has been debunked. The Right hasn't yet gone as overboard with the Branford accounts.

Yes, the folks who descended from those who walked to the Americas across the Bering Strait got screwed by the ones who sailed the Atlantic. It's also true that collectivist agriculture feeds fewer mouths than private farming.

Barry Pruett

Name calling! I win...woo hoo!

Steven Frisch

Greg, maybe you should read some history as well. You don't get to make facts up, and this is nothing but absolutely false, lying revisionist bullcrap from Barry. If you can find one serious academic historian that contends that Plymouth was a socialist collectivist failure I will eat my hat.

By the way, I agree that it is true that collectivist agriculture feeds fewer mouths than private farming--but Plymouth was not collectivist agriculture.

I could suggest William Cronon's book on settler's indians and the ecology of New England. Another classic is Alden Vaughn's book on the relationship between Puritan's and Indians and the decline in relations in the late 1670's.

Barry Pruett

"Perhaps Bradford's greatest achievement was his revision of the colony's economic organization in 1623. Spurred by hunger, the colonists had worked hard in the fields during their first year, but in succeeding years it became more and more difficult to get them to put their best efforts into this essential task. Bradford decided that the reason was the stipulation in their contract with the London merchants that everything in the colony, including the crops, was to be held in common for seven years. This crude communism was crippling individual enterprise. Boldly, on his own authority, Bradford abandoned the arrangement and announced that henceforth every family would raise its own corn. Plymouth never went hungry again."
- One Small Candle, The Pilgrims' First Year in America, by Thomas J. Fleming

Fleming is a historian with a degree from Fordham University (honors) in 1950.

Account Deleted

This is all just too funny. Way better than the end of the Dallas/Saints game. Barry quotes from the diary of the governor of the colony and it's called revisionist bullbleep.
The bottom line is that George wrote an entry in his ongoing blog about some disturbing trends in our nation towards the acceptability of govt control and censorship of news and opinion and there hasn't been one single response from our friends on the left that has advanced an intelligent fact-backed relevant point. Instead we find them here and on Jeff's blog hurling one abusive and dishonest attack after another at George's character. I participated in formal debate in high school and I can tell you the left scores no points here. There is good thought and honest debate available by the left in a few places that I have found online, but this ain't it. But please, lefties, continue to blog here - it helps me to get a better view of what you are thinking. As you are welcome here, I hope I will be welcome on Jeff's blog.

Steven Frisch

It was a joint stock company you boobs, of course the assets were held in common. Are joint stock companies socialism. You guys are insane.

There are no rational points here because none of you are rational, or well read.

Barry Pruett

Primary evidence and coherent points related thereto are not enough for Frisch. I think that Frisch is starting to believe in his self-professed greatness. Fact - Collectivism failed...private property and self-reliance succeeded. Frisch argues differently in one breath then in the next states that he is an ardent capitalist. You are a slippery one. LOL.

Greg Goodknight

Frisch, I minored in history, and SF State is not one of the great intellectual centers of the universe. You need to start reading titles outside of your comfort zone; there are supportable points of view besides the one you're stuck on.

Todd Juvinall

Frisch is a narcissist and no one meets his inflated view of himself. If you took away the grants he would be homeless. Then yes he would have a lot of time to read. Liberals are too funny.

Steve Frisch

Goodnight you are actually a snob aren't you?

RL Crabb

No, no! You've got it all wrong. It was the Indians who lived the collectivist, sustainable, lifestyle! They were the communists. That's why they had to be killed.

Greg Goodknight

Frisch, you're the one who wrote "I know you are all pretty anti-intellectual". Pretty strong statement, there, Steve. Don't you think the PoliSci department at Cal State SF would be a wee bit more to the loony left than, say, a similar department at Cal Poly SLO?

I realize life is easier on Planet Frisco when anyone with non-leftist thoughts learns to keep quiet, but you should never equate that with being anti-intellectual.

Paul Emery

Todd

Just a refresher on the history of the BOS in the 1990's
In 1996 Peter Van Zant was elected joined by Sam Dardick, Karen Keneck, Rene Antonsen and Fran Gratten. In 1998 Barbra Green replaced Sam Dardick and Izzy Martin and Bruce Conklin were voted along with Sue Horn in giving the environmental Democrats a 4-1 edge. Your project, which tried to build 23 houses in less than three acres was a primary example of the type of development that Nevada County didn't want and was used by campaigns as an example of over development. I know. I was there NH2020 as I stated earlier changed things around in 2002 Please feel free to correct me on facts but be specific.


Steven Frisch

Barbara replaced Sam after the 2000 election(Barbara was Sam's appointee to the Planning Commission). I remember the date because I ran the campaign.

Paul Emery

SP-Karen Knecht

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