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07 February 2011

Comments

D. King

“In the light of recent history it is somewhat curious that this decisive power of the professional secondhand dealers in ideas should not yet be more generally recognized.”

George,

Every time I try to engage in meaningful conversation or debate with the left, I feel like I’m being regurgitated on.

Question:

How do you debate with someone regurgitating on you?

George Rebane

Dave, that is one question that we are all trying to answer here on RR. My latest attempt was responding to the demand for an explicit utility function for determining the merit of various healthcare solutions. The effort went nowhere and we went back to talking about emotional anecdotes as the proper basis for formulating public policy. The same happened on the response to how the Norway template cannot apply to America. That is why I judge the ideological gulf to be unbridgable (new word).

But I don't see what the alternative is to our attempts at reasonable dialogue. The left's response on their outlets is to just hit 'delete' to anything that we may say in opposition.

Dixon Cruickshank

Example: Susan just returned from a cruise, while at lunch one day a gentleman waiting on his wife was engaging. As they talked about his trip to Alaska, a week cruise then a week on land, she opened a book she had that had a map of Alaska and the artic and they discussed. As he described his trip to a place near Mt McKinly she mention she had seen some of that of that on Sarah Palins Alaska show ( Denali National Park).

His immediate responce was " I would never listen to anything she said" in a very nasty tone, thank goodness his wife arrived at that moment - Susan said she wanted to punch him in the face - she may have if he would stayed a tad longer - the book with the map - Sarah Palin Going Rogue, which Susan loves as she is quite like her frankly and I bought her the book.

Michael Anderson

"How do you debate with someone regurgitating on you?"

Dave, that's pretty dramatic. Is that really how you feel? Are you sure regurgitation is even the right metaphor?

As a libertarian progressive, I get frustrated in all types of venues. I take the whole thing with a grain of salt. I post what I post, when I can (and I'm behind at the moment with a whole bunch of deliverables having to do with this health care imbroglio and Norwegian entrepreneurs) but I never feel regurgitated upon. Are you sure you're not projecting?

Did you ever play sports when you were growing up? I was regularly handed my "hat" in baseball, football, basketball, tennis, track, volleyball, wrestling, water polo, and swimming in high school; these blogs are nothing compared with that level of competitive abuse.

"Regurgitation" suggests that you are the unwilling recipient of an upwelling of material that was crammed down someone's throat. And I'd also like to make note that in some bird species, regurgitation is how the young ones are fed. Just sayin'.

From a classical psychoanalytical POV, as the alleged recipient of the unwanted regurgitation, perhaps you could step out of the path of the regurgitive stream and just go about your business. That's what I do; no shower necessary that way.

Paul Emery

Dave

Not fair I used that word first.

"I am much more interested in the opinions of unaffiliated independent thinkers than regurgitation
of the dogma of either party."

I'll use expostulation instead if you want to coin the word

Mikey McD

Can someone define "libertarian progressive"?

George Rebane

Good question Mikey; I was about to ask MichaelA the same thing since I could not come up with a definition that was self-consistent. Perhaps it belongs to the same group of ideologies from which 'fiscal conservative, social liberal' comes from. The latter we hear often, but never analyzed to see if all the parts fit together.

RL Crabb

If a progressive believes in BIG government and a libertarian believes in small government, it would stand to reason that a progressitarian would believe in a medium-sized government. Or, as Goldilocks might say, "this one is too hot...this one is too cold...but this one is just right!"

D. King

Yes Bob, and consistent with lack of respect for personal property rights and redistribution of porridge.

RL Crabb

You forget, Dave, that after the Goldilocks incident they put a bounty on the bears until the only one left was on the state flag.

D. King

Michael said:

"Regurgitation" suggests that you are the unwilling recipient of an upwelling of material that was crammed down someone's throat.

Yes!

It’s like trying to debate this regurgitation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoVlIx3njkM

You can’t, because it’s too stupid!

Kids is smarter than old peoples is. They understands the lies we is telln em.

Now tell me, how do you debate that?

Todd Juvinall

Bill Nye the Science Guy is why people no longer trust science findings. We are unpatriotic he says if we don't believe what he says. Amazing. You are right Dave, you cannot have a discussion with someone like Nye.

D. King

Paul said:

"I'll use expostulation instead..."

O.K., but don't forget to wash your hands.
:)

Michael Anderson

OK, I'm just getting out of the shower. Took me a while to wash off, sorry it took so long to remove all of that material.

Next time I'll try to get out of the way of the regurgitation a bit quicker! I'm not a baby birdy that cannot feed myself, just for future reference.

Mikey wrote: "Can someone define 'libertarian progressive'"?
Mikey, I invite you to branch out onto more complex continents of thought. If you mix black and white together you get varying shades of gray. Didn't we already go through all of this with the Carl S. Milsted, Jr. PhD test? I came out in the Libertarian quadrant, just north of the Liberal border.

George wrote: "Good question Mikey; I was about to ask MichaelA the same thing since I could not come up with a definition that was self-consistent. Perhaps it belongs to the same group of ideologies from which 'fiscal conservative, social liberal' comes from. The latter we hear often, but never analyzed to see if all the parts fit together."
Bringing up some barrels of black & white hogwash from the basement I see, George. Here's what a progressive libertarian believes in--
* Small gov't, free enterprise, liberty
* Except when market bullies game the system, then gov't has to step in to re-level the playing field to balance liberty with justice...
* ...which was actually the first reason gov't was invented--it wasn't about roads!

RL wrote: "If a progressive believes in BIG government and a libertarian believes in small government, it would stand to reason that a progressitarian would believe in a medium-sized government. Or, as Goldilocks might say, 'this one is too hot...this one is too cold...but this one is just right!'"
Exactly Bob! I love it...I will call myself a Progressitarian from now on!!

Dave King wrote: Yes Bob, and consistent with lack of respect for personal property rights and redistribution of porridge.
Ah yes, and a nice fat dollop of mindless rhetoric to finish off the meal. Thanks Dave!

George Rebane

Michael, that's my first intro to 'progressive libertarian'. Those two attributes could also be embraced by 'free market libertarians' who believe in the proper dollop of govt sparingly applied to keep things on even keel. Pray, where then does the 'progressive' part come in?

D. King

Michael said:

* Except when market bullies game the system, then gov't has to step in to re-level the playing field to balance liberty with justice...

Like this?

General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt, who Obama
recently appointed to lead his new panel on "job creation," understands this new reality. One of the nation's most effective cronies, Immelt's company has benefited from government bailouts, waivers and lines of credit. A real icon of capitalism, Immelt.

On a completely separate issue, Immelt has also supported every initiative the president has forwarded from the stimulus — "Bold, visionary action!" — cap and trade (under which, unlike you, GE would benefit financially) and embraces all the subsidies that come with the progressive green agenda.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_17332375


Michael Anderson

Dave,

Beltway crony-capitalism regurgitation is of the worst sort. Thank goodness that spew is on an entirely different coast. It's reach is still global, but the echo chamber is 3K miles away, at least.

Let's take a break for Valentines Day. Here's some lovely pictures you might like--

http://www.kern-photo.com/index.php/2010/09/couples-in-love-on-the-playa/

Michael Anderson

George wrote: 'free market + libertarians'

Not the same?

D. King

Lovely pictures...church group?

BTW, grew up in So. Cal. haven’t been shocked since Madonna in the 80’s.

Mikey McDaniel

Pray, where then does the 'progressive' part come in?

George Rebane

"George wrote: 'free market + libertarians'." George wrote no such thing, but he does believe that libertarians will support free markets, though that is not a requirement in the precise definition of a libertarian. Hence, when I call myself a free market libertarian, I must append the two.

But appending progressive to libertarian is to libertarians an antithesis when the term 'progressive' is understood in its common context of 20th and 21st century America. Progressive is the nom de guerre adopted early in the last century by socialists to sell socialism under a more palatable label. More here -
http://sovereignty.net/center/socialists.htm

However Michael, you may use 'progressive' in a unique and personal way for reasons currently unknown to us. In these discussions your explication of progressive would serve a useful purpose, because frankly, many of your stated social policy preferences put you solidly in the socialist camp, and leave many scratching their heads when you do throw out a capitalist sounding crumb or two.

Better yet, since you are an educated and well-read discussant in these pages, I would happily post an extended discourse on progressive libertarianism or progressitarianism to use your coinage. We could then dissect that belief system and, perhaps, all discover that there are more birds out there of a similar feather.

Greg Goodknight

Conservatives as classic liberals? I thought they were the classic Tories.

Personally, I think MA has too much of the 'coersive Utopian' in him to wear the libertarian label, even with the 'progressive' prefix, at least when it comes to a couple of hotbutton issues.

I think the left- spectrum of libertarianism generally comes into play with definitions of public good and public harm and what powers we grant the government to manage these.

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