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23 March 2011

Comments

Russ Steele

Thanks for the report George, it encouraging to see the audience numbers are still staying up. Were there a large number Tea Party Patriot red shirts.

Will the Power Point be available for public review? How did we all become confused about the duration of the cuts? Was this another failure of the government to communicate, or was it a failure of the press to inform us of the true impact. Or, could it be that Tom is confused? There seems to be some clarity missing in his message, and some reality missing from his analysis of our future. Hand waving, does not change the numbers, we need a plan and political leaders with the testicles to follow the plan.

Todd Juvinall

The American dream is under attack by the people that want something for nothing and we have a lot of them. Unless we return our nations attitude to one of having to work for what you get, even if it is a small thing, we are doomed. Rome fell over time because the number of non-doers outnumbered the doers and soon outside forces took them out. I see similarities here. The elephant in the room for me though is government regulations. These have sapped our country of initiative. Every business has to have a HR and an OSHA or COMP division and there are so many rules, each of which cost money, that any smart person trying to start out is discouraged. We don't need to fundamentally change our country, all we need to do is chop and slash government tax policy and regulatory tyranny. Don't spend more than we bring in. Take back the power given to bureaucrats and return it to the people. Localize.

Bob W

George,

Maybe I don't get and if so perhaps you can straighten me out. Is Tom saying that Bachman, King and the other "Tea Party" representatives are all wrong about the $105b of mandated Obama Care implementation funding in the last CR? Or is Tom joining the establishment? I appreciate a more straight forward analysis without all the double speak. Seems as though every time it is simple and to the point it just happens to reflect reality much closer.

OK so let me have it. I'm waiting.

Steve Enos

Todd Juvinall just staked out some hard lines and standards he says we need to follow. Ok, so it's fair to see how Todd's own stated standards line up with his own actions.

Accountability and responsibility of ones own decisions and actions? Sounds good, but let's apply them to all regardless of political party. Isn't that fair?

What about bailouts with taxpayers money for real estate developers that borrow lots of money to build spec houses and then fail to pay their development loans?

How do you folks feel about people, including real estate developers that take out loans, stop paying the loans while at the same time renting out the homes and collecting rent? Is that responsible?

Does these actions match with Todd's post and his stated standards?

Todd says... "Unless we return our nations attitude to one of having to work for what you get, even if it is a small thing, we are doomed". Say one thing and do another?

Todd posted "Don't spend more than we bring in". Does this apply to everyone or is this selective?

Todd posted "The elephant in the room for me though is government regulations."

The real elephant in the room that some here refuse to address is Todd's double standards and his clear hypocrisy.

So... bash me for providing this response to Todd's own stated positon and standards, thus showing additional hypocrisy or... apply Todd's own stated standards to all... including Todd.

John Galt

To Russ's point. Tom's website or email blast would have been a good means of "communicating" the correct message.

Thanks George for the thorough report. I share your concerns about all the dependencies. Reminds me of the WWII book: "A Bridge Too Far".

Todd Juvinall

When we start seeing major policy changes with the budgets at all levels the politicians will not have the support of the people. We need to move away from the "entitlement" mentality and back to the work mentality. Too many freeloaders on the taxpayers money.

Steve Enos

I agree with Todd when he says... "Too many freeloaders on the taxpayers money".

Account Deleted

Hey Steve - Can you trace any of my money to Todd that Todd forced me to pay him? Can you demonstrate how Todd took any of your money? Didn't think so. Can you name any laws that Todd broke? George posts a blog entry about the fact that our nation is in serious financial trouble and you reply with a personal attack on some one who comments on that blog. How about we all agree with you Steve and chant - "Todd is a hypocrite" a thousand times? Now go back and actually read the above blog entry by George and let us know how your attacks on Todd will remedy any of that.

John Galt

Here's a link to the Stephen Lerner audio George referred to (located using Ask.Com instead of Google): http://the-classic-liberal.com/seiu-stephen-lerner-destabilize-capitalism/

It's about 12 minutes of the SEIU leader's Lerner's candid plan to destabilize our govt & economy.

Steve Enos

Scott...the answer is yes.

What types of loans did Todd take out for his failed real estate development projects?

Could they include FHA and Vet backed loans as stated in the public forclosure documents? Where does that money come from Scott?

Who is bailing out the banks for all the failed loans? Would that be taxpayers money?... the answer is yes again, it's massive amounts of taxpayers money going to the banks to cover the failed loans.

As my post stated... my comments and the issues I raised are in direct response to Todd's above stated standards, just a direct response to the ground Todd staked out in his post.

No need for you all here to chant... "Todd is a hypocrite a thousand times"... but facing the facts and doing it once would be nice.

The hypocrisy is clear, regardless if you can't face up to it.

George Rebane

BobW – don’t know who you are accusing of “doublespeak”. If it’s me, then I apologize, for I benefit nothing from confusing more an issue that is already confused enough. As I said in my last KVMR commentary, the latest CR contained no proscriptions of Obamacare. I consider that a to be a victory for the Dems, and caving by the Repubs. Is Tom “joining the establishment?” I don’t know, his drawing and standing firm on the “red line” will tell the tale. My support of Tom has always been based on his not joining the establishment that got us here and now has no balls to get us back on a sustainable fiscal track. I am doing homework on Tom’s stance and will report my take on what I find out.

SteveE – I believe it is possible to critically discuss the ideas and proposals of an alleged hypocrite without being diverted to continually indicting and prosecuting the so accused. Todd’s views of government involvement in our lives stand on their own, and their merit can be debated without bringing in any iniquities with which you judge him to be still burdened. This would push the peanut along a bit more than the constant recounting of your past charges - unless, of course, you have nothing to contribute to the idea itself. Perhaps as an illustration, how would government have functioned if every time Bill Clinton proposed something, his opposition would instead bring up his back seat peccadilloes as governor, or his then current dress staining indelicacies in the Oval Office? ScottO's added points resonate with me.

JohnG – ‘A Bridge Too Far’ is an excellent metaphor for what *appears* to be attempted here. And thanks for the audio link, I have inserted it into the original post above.

Todd Juvinall

George, Steve Enos is simply on a fishing expedition and he knows nothing. He is simply following me around to every place I comment and trying to somehow discredit me. It really doesn't matter to me because he doesn't matter to me. My feelings of him are shared with many other folks.

George Rebane

Todd, I understand. Nevertheless, as the keeper of the keys here, my somewhat less than successful efforts with SteveE are to entice him to share his own brand of liberalism re the topics under discussion.

John Galt

BTW, I'm color blind. I read black and white, not purple. Comes in handy when one needs to filter information.

Todd Juvinall

Don't misunderstand me George. I enjoy reading the lame attempts by Enos and his ilk to come up with something (THEY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING). The liberals on Pelline's blog including Enos are bashing you and me and the rest for some PC outrage deJour yet they are the blatant namecallers. I did a story on one of them, Kate Hancock, who was just plain nasty. I am getting a gazillion page views but the liberals don't comment because they are unable to justify their hypocrisy. The reason liberalism is becoming neutered is because we leave their comments on the threads so everyone can see who the liberals REALLY ARE.

John Galt

Rush commented on Stephen Lerner's plan during the 10 O'clock hr. He pointed out that those Cadillac pensions which are invested in the stock market would be damaged by Lerner's plans. Seems unlikely that The Union members will oppose that.

If Lerner does pursue his plan, the audio will make good evidence to imprison him for violating The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act.

But while Lerner's plan is unlikely to materialize, it's enlightening to know the lengths Commicrats will go to.


Galt's Definition of Commicrat(s): Communists charading as Democrats. Individuals that perpetuate the sociopolitical movement of Communism under the pretense of being a Democrat. See also Marxicrat

Galt's Definition of Marxicrat(s): Marxists charading as Democrats.

Bob W

George,

Please don't bother apologizing, no need. I was just trying to cut to the issue I was interested in with regard to Tom's meeting. After your explanation I have to assume that all the ranker by the NAY freshmen and other "Tea Party" reps was unfounded and had no basis in reality. But then I would have to assume that you know much more about the CR than they did. Perhaps, but then I will wait to see what materializes. If the Republicans, including Tom, don't start bucking up I will be forced to put them in the same column as the Democrats. This after support for 42 years.

George Rebane

Useful labels JohnG; you may have expanded the information carrying capacity of the language. May I add sociacrats to fill the interval between commicrats and marxicrats. Then we may expand to progressicrats and progressicans, since members of both parties suffer from that ideological infection.

Jack McClure:

My problem with all Republicans, including those new Tea Party folks, is they seem to already have forgotten November 2nd. They all talked a good game during the campaign, didn't they? They should draw a line in the sand and then go into battle for the safety and security of our country. This may be the last fight for our country's freedom. We all need to write, fax or email our representatives and inundate the media with letters to the editor letting them know exactly how you feel. Folks, this is war! Now is not the time to sit back and wait and see.

Russ Steele

Hot Air writes there is a pending budget deal on the table:

Republicans and President Barack Obama’s Democrats, facing huge economic stakes, may soon reach a budget deal for this fiscal year after weeks of half measures to avert a government shutdown.

Worried about the fragile U.S. recovery and their own political well-being, members on both sides seem willing to resolve a gap between them on how much needs to be cut from federal spending this fiscal year to rein in the budget deficit.

“Chances of a deal seem reasonably good,” a senior congressional aide said, adding that talks may deepen when they move from staff level to the involvement of party leadership in the Senate and House of Representatives as early as next week.

A GOP aide says that a deal is in “everyone’s interest,” referring to the political danger in a government shutdown. 

I guess Jack does not think that a deal is the right thing to do!


Account Deleted

Sorry Steve. You didn't answer my questions. I asked if Todd had taken any of your money or mine. You start talking about the govt. Todd is not the govt, Steve. Who gave the banks and Fannie and Freddie unlimited access to our tax money? The fed govt. did Steve. Not Todd. Todd pays taxes and will until he dies. If he stops paying whomever he has loans with, then they can re-possess the houses. Simple. But they are being given the money by the feds who take it at gun point from us. Todd didn't tell them to do that. And I see that you have admitted my point that everyone "facing the facts" about Todd won't solve the problem. But you think it would be "nice". You certainly have your priorities all figured out.

George Rebane

Amen JackM. As I reported in the post, there is a lot of talk about a mystery deal with the Dems in the works. The Repubs report it producing a 'red line' behind which to take a stand. But if the rumors of this deal revolve around not shutting down the government as the prime goal, then I think we are looking at low grade ore from our elected conservatives.

Steve Enos

Sorry, but you missed Scott. Todd took put loans to build spec houses, stoppped paying, then the foreclosures. The public foreclosure notices showed loan(s) were FHA/VA backed. Guess who ends up paying for this? That would be the taxpayers.

Follow the money... part of the cause of the mess we are in is because of folks taking out real estate loans and then failing to pay the loans. Taxpayers then provided the banks with a lot of public money to cover the bad loans. What part of tjis is not correct?

The Feds made it so anyone could borrow money for real estate. Far too many took out loans that should not have. They took out loans and then walked away from the loans.

I did not say that "facing the facts" about Todd's actions would solve the problem... it's about hypocrisy.

John Galt

George, your definition of "Sociacrat(s)" has been accepted :)

Wish me luck trying to get these definitions adopted by Wiki and other online dictionaries.

Jack, I'm not sure how you distinguish "the new Tea Party folks" from old Tea Party folks. From my first-and observation, TP members passionately believe we're running out of time to get our fiscal house in order. Typical republican's don't have the same sense of urgency. I would agree that neither is well coordinated for communication--but we need a different forum to discuss it. There's too may purple eyes here.

George Rebane

JohnG, can you tell us at least what aspect of the growing fiscal crisis 1) has not already been discussed in these pages, and 2) would be inappropriate for discussing in such open forums with purple people watching and participating? I'm not sure I understand the purpose such sub rosa discussions would serve.

John Galt

My error for the lack of clarity. I was referring only to a perceived lack of aggressive communication with legislators. The communication amongst ourselves is excellent. But most of the participants here are members of the same choir.

Jack wrote above: We all need to write, fax or email our representatives and inundate the media with letters to the editor letting them know exactly how you feel. Folks, this is war! Now is not the time to sit back and wait and see.

I share Scott's sentiments; my sense is that the NCTPP & GOP rely mostly on an an independent effort. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Regardless, expanding upon this particular point is not something I'd like to share with the purple people.

Account Deleted

Steve - did you ever write a check or give cash to Todd? No. The govt takes your money and gives it to the banks who Todd owes money to and who do you blame? You need to think, Steve. Todd never took a dime of your money. The Dems took your money at gunpoint from you and gave it to benefit some one you don't like. In my world that would make the govt the problem. Did Todd ever support or vote for the folks that took your money and then gave it to the banks? No. You did! At some point, I would think you would wake up and realize you got screwed by the side you help put into power.

Dixon Cruickshank

Excellent point Scott - nail on the head Touche'

outstanding perception

Steve Enos

So Scott claims to know who I voted for and who Todd voted for... sorry that's a no-defense claim.

Seems Scott can't grasp the facts of who ended up holding the bag.

Account Deleted

Steve - you can't or won't answer my questions. You make up things you claim I say. I never said I didn't end up holding the bag. If you would ever just once, actually read and understand what I write, you would see that I'm ticked at having to pay for others' stupidity and greed. The only entity that makes me pay anything is the govt. No one else on earth can do that. Not Todd or you or GM or George Soros. The govt Steve! I am willing to pay them for constitutionally constrained spending but nothing else. Those are the facts, Steve. Face it.

Mikey McD

Scott, well put!

If our government had not socialized the mortgage industry (FHA, Freddie, Fannie) then 'our' money would not be at risk. As it is 'our' money is taken at gun point for the government to use (without regard to moral hazard, profit motive, etc). Take OPM out of the equation and most banks (public or socialized) would not have taken the risk they did (and if they did, they would be bk).

The constitution was murdered by W. Wilson administration circa 1913 with the advent of the Federal Reserve and Income tax and buried by FDR's admin via big gov 'entitlement' era on steroids.

Progressives understand that if the average person has their reasoning abilities then they NEED a nanny government to help them tie their shoes, choose their food, insure home ownership, educate, choose enemies/wars, etc.

Steve Enos

Mikey, where does personal responsibility for ones own actions fit into this?

Mikey McD

A government spending OPM (Other People's Money) encourages malfeasance, penalizes success/rewards failure, disregards the laws of moral hazard (encourages risk taking on both sides of ever deal), disregards profit motives laws (i.e. don't make stupid financial decisions), erroneously/devastatingly believes that central planners can manipulate, collude and coerce to control economic outcomes...disconnects a personal decision and the pain associated with poor judgment... which ALL perverts the value system (morals/ethics) of all parties.

Mikey McD

FUBAR

Dixon Cruickshank

I'm sure that covered it mikey

Todd Juvinall

What is FUBAR?

Mr. Obvious

google it

Todd Juvinall

Oh, well, I probably won't be using that term. LOL

Steve Enos

It's not my fault, the government made me do it...So that's the story?

So much for personal responsibility and accountability.

Barry Pruett

Steve (Baja): You are the guy that was running around the internet for the past two weeks complaining like a three year old about people personally attacking others, yet all of you have done on this thread is personally attack Todd. George: If I were you, I would delete Baja, as he is more interested in disrupting the conversation than participating.

George Rebane

Barry, SteveE has on numerous occasions been invited to the conversation. As an exemplar of the progressive mind, SteveE is contributing the best he can. And as long as his comments maintain a modicum civility, he is welcome here and serves the dual purpose of reminding the rest of us of how and why the libertarian/conservative has almost no chance to make a connection with the collectivist. Better examples of this exist on leftwing blogs, but here we take what we can get. I suggest that we consider these visits as confirming moments.

Todd Juvinall

It is my understanding the BOS is considering giving SteveF and SBC some taxpayers money. Is that true?

George Rebane

Todd, they may be in a quandry about that or refinancing the Worm Farm. But let us know if you find out.

Account Deleted

Ah, yes! Personal responsibility! The govt has been rewarding irresponsibility (as well as illegal activity) for quite a while and suddenly the call for personal responsibility! Welcome to the Tea Party, Steve! That's what it's all about. Always glad to have Steve post here.

Todd Juvinall

Me too. I always think having opposing views is important. Unfortunately though, the Enos', Frisch's and Pelline's get personal and then lose all their credibility. The Tea Party is full of people who are fed up with the leftwingnuts and their lying ways. America will recover.

Steve Enos

Todd (wiseandjust), you define getting "personal" and your posts show that. In fact you like to be known for that and even brag about that, don't you?

Scott... I agree with you and always have that "The govt has been rewarding irresponsibility (as well as illegal activity) for quite a while".

Todd's failed real estate development projects, funded/backed by government loans are a prime example of which you speak. Nice to see you and I are on the same page on this one.

Todd Juvinall

Even though people like Enos make up their attacks from whole cloth, I forgive them. When you are nasty namecallers like them I know they are in need of some sort of mental health care. It is OK Steve, we all understand.

Account Deleted

Nice try Steve - The govt is mugging us and you still blame Todd. There is no money from you or me to Todd. You've had several convoluted attempts, but you still come up empty. The govt takes the money, Steve and gives it to the banks. You are so wrapped up in your petty vendettas, you can't see reality. Even though you still can't back up your nonsense, I like to read what you think as it helps to see what kind of warped reality you live in.
Let's try another angle on this. You claim you don't like the govt rewarding irresponsible and illegal activity - what would you like the govt to stop funding, then? Yes, I know Todd is top of the list even though he isn't actually getting anything. So please try to come up with real stuff that actually costs us money. I'm thinking billions in this state alone to illegal aliens and trillions to failed rackets like Fannie and Freddie. With me?

Steve Enos

Nope Scott, I blame the government AND folks like Todd that took out the loans and then bailed. The government bailed them out as they are both responsible.

Billions wnet to bailout borrowers and banks that took out real estate loans when they walked away from those loans.

Then there are those that took out the loans, stopped paying the loans while at the same time collecting rent from renters and failing to pay the bank loans, loans backed by government money... now that's a "racket"!

Account Deleted

Steve can you answer a simple question? Who takes your money? Try to focus. I am well aware of all of the money going to people that shouldn't get it. Far beyond what you seem to be aware of. The govt will always give money to folks you don't like unless you make the govt follow the Constitution. Always. So follow the Constitution or stop complaining.
It was the Reps that tried to stop what you claim you don't like and the Dems that kept the scam going until it crashed. It's the Tea Party-type folks that wanted an end to this decades ago - where were you? The whole "great society" and "war on poverty" scam has drained trillions away from productive uses for decades. The whole health care bill is one big scam. It all needs to stop! Todd didn't ask for or make you pay anything. He didn't make the rules - he just follows them. Go to the DA and file a complaint if you have something.

Steve Enos

Let's see.... There are those (one is a poster here)that took out real estate loans, stopped paying the loans while at the same time collecting rent from renters and while also failing to pay the bank loans, loans backed by government money.

So the responsibility is with the goverenment only? Why no responsibility or accountablity for the person that decided to take out a number of loans for spec real estate development projects that he walked away from leaving others, including taxpayers to pick up the mess?

The government made me do it, it's not my fault! I'm not responsible or I'm not accountable for my actions, the government is!

If Scotts postion wasn't so sad and wrong it would be funny.

The government is responsible and the people that took the loans out are also responsible. What ever happened to personal accountability for ones own actions?

Ronald Reagan demanded personal responsibility and accountability, I liked that about him. On the other hand Scott's postion is... the dog ate my home work, I'm not responsible.

Complete hypocrisy!

PS: George, I know it's hard, but I'm betting that you agree with me that the blame is not just with the government, that responsibility and accountablity also must apply to the person.

George Rebane

SteveE - Garrett Hardin taught us about the tragedy of the commons - a valuable resource broadly accessible with weak to non-existent marginal cost feedbacks to its consumers who are measurably and immediately punished for NOT participating in its eventual destruction.

Unfortunately, society is an extremely complex system that is always mismanaged by overreaching governments, like ours has become. The most pernicious method of mismanagement are the inadvertent establishments of various types of commons that are soon discovered, and thereafter destroyed as was the one that you cite in the case of Todd.

Collectivist ideologies give rise to governments that expand their meddling in the affairs of their governed, and thereby set up an uncountable number of pernicious commons which are then systematically destroyed. In their futile attempts to conserve such resources, these same governments wind up passing ever more draconian laws to prevent what people do naturally. The end state is always the same, a liberties-eating autocracy that proceeds into a police state.

History shows that any social ideology which depends for its success on the widespread practice of state-mandated altruistic behaviors is certain to fail. The USSR was on paper one of the most fiercely moral governments known to man. And it failed precisely for its futile and unrealizable demands for altruistic behavior.

There is no known system of secular altruism that has worked either with man or beast. And a deeper look into spiritual (or cultural) alturistics reveals the same conclusion – a pro quid quo is always to be found in the seeming altruist. A good example of this are the legions of Islamist martyrs who murder without meaning – at least meaning to us. To them there is ultimate meaning and ultimate reward for their action – ergo, they are not altruists.

In Ruminations I have attempted to bring this lesson to the fore many times. But there is a mindset that is impervious to such truths, and one of the purposes of this blog is to pile its stubborn ounces on side of this kind of reason. When presented with these arguments, as these pages witness, the collectivist simply sidesteps them and persists with the original misconception twice fortified – the kind of response that I have given here is nowhere to be found.

Steven Frisch

So, in short, Todd can't be blamed for greed, it is a result of the state!

After slaughtering the innocent, may I please have an indulgence?
Oh I'm sorry, I would first have to confess and seek absolution!

George Rebane

SteveF, you have been granted an indulgence for this particular comment because you cleverly chose to illustrate my closing argument about the collectivist response.

Steven Frisch

Well, I was also illustrating that the great message of the Reformation was that confession, absolution and indulgence cannot be granted by the omniscient powers that be (in this case you) they are between the sinner and his God!

George Rebane

My hope was that the reader would understand the arguments that I posted were extra-personal (anyone could have written them), and would therefore stand or fall on their own merits. I also happen to be a person who holds them to be true, so I will defend them until superior reason prevails. Agreeing with Hardin, I am claiming that creating commons always has and always will bring about such short term optimizations.

Hardin's conclusion was that the proper role of government in thse cases was to minimize such commons and substitute wiser policies that would provide for the greater benefit as we all followed our non-altruistic nature. His example of locating the water purification and effluent treatment plants for St Louis (which I have described in RR) serves to illustrate.

Mikey McD

We are very lucky to have Tom McClintock as our rep.

Account Deleted

Steve still thinks this is Todd's fault. Alright. The govt has guaranteed home loans at least since the GI bill. I'm sure there were programs of some sort in the 30's. Millions of folks have taken out loans with all sorts of programs offered by the govt since then. But Todd does it and blam! There goes the economy. I would love to know why Todd is a problem here. The reason that the govt underwrites or guarantees the loan is because there is some inherent risk in all loans. If and when a person is not able to pay back the loan, the bank will expect relief from the govt for the non performing loan. Whether or not we approve of this, it is so. And one of the results of this is a skewed market with a distorted information feedback system that is normally available in a free market. The playing field is slanted but all business must play anyway. Todd is forced to pay taxes to support the system and he must take advantage of whatever loans he can get at a favorable rate if he wants to be competitive in the market. There were plenty of people that took out loans that they had no hope of paying for. There is plenty of blame all the way around. But the govt is root problem. It was the govt that enabled it all. Stupid tax laws that encouraged constant re-financing, banks being pressured to make bad loans and the fed keeping the rates insanely low are the biggest 3 reasons. There are all sorts of people that should be behind bars from Frank Raines right down to the home owners that signed documents that falsified their income. But it's not going to happen. Instead we are handing money to the folks that lied on their loan applications so they can stay in their house. Again, the market is badly skewed. Instead of a quick collapse where the bottom of the market is found, and we can start building prices back up, we have an extended slow downward drifting market with no hope of finding the bottom soon. Now, even reasonable house loans are in trouble. The govt has screwed up the market so badly, no one knows where the bottom is. Until the bottom is found, there will be no rebuilding of value. If Todd's bank wants to retake the house, they can. What will they have then? A home they can not sell for anything close to what they are owed. The renters in the house have an agreement with Todd to pay monthly rent. I'm sure the rent payment is much cheaper than it would have been a couple of years ago. The bank doesn't want to have to be the landlord and be responsible for maintenance and rent collecting and so forth. They have Todd to do that. And they get the tax payers money to stay afloat in the whole mess. I'm not real thrilled with the deal. (gross understatement) Todd never in his wildest dreams thought the market would collapse. He and the bank assumed a new home in the Nevada County market would have a certain range of value that would justify the loan. It was not irresponsible. The govt was. And continues to be so. If Todd didn't exist, we'd still have a mess. If the govt stayed within it's Constitutionally mandated borders, all of this would never had happened. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of greedy fools and crooks responsible at some level, but it all boils down to the govt deciding they are going to "fix" a problem when they have idea of what they are doing and no legal authority to do so. Steve, you are entitled to your opinion, but I have been following the politics of home ownership and financing since the 70's and it is playing out in a way that I have expected so I hardly think I'm wrong. I have only been wrong in the timing and the scope of it all. I thought it would go off the cliff much sooner and I didn't think the govt would react the way it has. The vast over-reaching idea of constantly rewarding bad behaviour is just stupifying in it's scale. The biggest check on the free market was the cost of moral hazard and it has just about been eliminated by the govt and financed by we tax payers and generations to come.

Steve Enos

Scott, why do you keep posting what you think I think, you are not getting it right.

Scoot posts "Steve still thinks this is Todd's fault". Seems Scoot can't read... this IS what I think, this is what I posted...


I posted... "the blame is not just with the government, that responsibility and accountablity also must apply to the person".


"

Todd Juvinall

Scott, I appreciate your discussion here with Enos but it is my experience with him that he does not care for any answer which does not fit his perceived world view. I have had to cut off any discussions with him because he just can't hold a two way. I have simply asked him on numerous occasions for little things such as"Steve, you stated your profession is as a Land Use Planner. You stated that on your Statement when you ran fo office. Could you please supply us with your license and educational credentials?" Never got any over the years. He never responds either. So I never answer any of his whole cloth stuff because he is only fishing for some piece of info he can use later to scream hypocrisy. I give him credit though for being outraged at people that employ others, he is consistent.

Steve Enos

The blame is not just with the government, responsibility and accountablity also must apply to the person.

Seems some can;t grasp this simple concept.

The hypocrisy is so very clear!

George Rebane

It seems that my contribution to this thread has been ignored. Let me then also offer this to the winds.

Given long established and much demonstrated human nature, setting up situations and environments where such nature will inevitably fail is to many of us the moral equivalent of 'entrapment' in law enforcement. Yes, you can argue the fault contribution to the putative 'criminal', but the courts take a dim view of nailing someone who otherwise would not have done anything wrong.

That's about as simply as I can illustrate the blame sharing of government established commons that are then reliably destroyed by their consumers.

It's easier to stop setting up commons than it is to change long evolved human nature that for the last several million years has successfully served the survival of the species (and not only human species).

Todd Juvinall

George would this be the same thing as making criminals out of all Americans who buy incandescent light bulbs?

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