« Fox News Adds to the Confusion on Debt Limits | Main | ‘… war for national survival …’ (updated 12may2011) »

03 May 2011

Comments

Dixon Cruickshank

Mr Thornton we will all believe he was born in HI because he says he was, because you and Enos say he was and somebody else in Hawaii says he was - no problem.

As far as the newspaper stuff - puleesse - I had an annoucement in the Tampa Tribune - yet was born in West Virgina, kinda like Obit - the paper doesn't really check your pulse.

The doubt is there already out there and all these forged docs do is reinforce that doubt to people that probably didn't give a crap in the first place. That doubt will never go away no matter how many times you repeat it, and yes it will be a moot point. I suspect those chickens will be coming home in Nov '12, its just that simple.

Mike Thornton

No, the only people that "doubt it" are the hyper-partisan and/or racist nuts!

Steve Enos

"all these forged docs"... what a hoot! Russ, George, Dixon and a few others here claim the President Obama BC's are forged fakes... call the CIA as this group are experts and they should be working for the CIA!

PLEASE keep this up, please keep beating the Birther drum as it helps President Obama and it makes you folks look like loons.

Also please keep Palin in the mix until the next election and Thrump too! It might not be easy as Palin is about toast, her 15 minutes of fame are about gone and Thrump?... what a clown he is. Too bad he won't run for President.

President Obama will be elected to a second term... hope you are ready for that reality as it will happen.

George Rebane

My post presents a simple proposition, that the WH posted pdf of Obama's birth cdertificate is a fake. The evidence is presented to support the proposition. No other claims were made.

But it seems that no one wants to confront the evidence, only accuse people of being 'birthers' and talk about Obama killing Osama.

From such a smoke screen, I conclude that there is no good evidence to counter the fake claim. We must remember that there is no validation of the posted certificate by the CIA, NSA, or the image experts at the Jet Propulsion Lab. And I suspect that they will keep silent on the matter.

As a trained, degreed, credentialed professional in this field, and one who has worked long years in signal and image processing (California Registered Engineer, #CS1970), I would dearly like to hear a professional step up to the mike and defend that pdf image as one that has the production pathway the WH claims - i.e. the authentic paper document from Hawaii's archives that was first scanned, then converted to a pdf file, and posted on line.

All other questions about Obama's birth can be addressed later if necessary.

Ken Jones

President Obama has provided ample documentation to more than prove his
citizenship. These claims that he now needs
to prove the recent document isn't a forgery are
a joke. The whole birther mentality is a joke.
The intent seems to be a sustained attack by the radical right on an elected president. My question would be for the right to actually prove they don't put the GOP before our nation. Current events show different.

Russ Steele

Steve and Mike,

I do not consider myself a “birther” as you define it. I agree that he most likely born in the US, but who was the real birth mother? The doctored long form birth certificate raises some questions in my mind. The analysis by a computer expert would indicate there is a problem with the name that should be explored in more detail. When there are anomalies in the record, one is prompted to ask questions. Experts discovered the documents accusing George of Bush of shirking his duty were forged. How did we find out document experts spotted an anomaly in the type face. Now exerts have found an anomaly in the density of the text and lack of scanner color correction.

Why was the document tampered with? Why was so much money spend to keep it a secret? Why is the 1961 live birth recored on a pre- printed form that was not printed until 1974. There maybe some good answer to these questions which you all refuse to address.

Attacking the messenger with claims about my mental health does not seem to be a very good strategy. I suggest that you watch the videos linked on my blog, and here, and then explain to the readers here, and on my blog, where the analysis by these document experts are wrong. I would like to know why you think that they are wrong? I would like to know what you think the motivation was for the Obama Staff to doctor up these documents? I am sure there are good explanations? What are they?

Mike Thornton

George and Russ:

It doesn't matter what anybody says or what anybody does.
You want Obama to be illegitimate and you'll never stop claiming the in some way or another that he is. I don't care how many amature detective Youtube videos you cite or how much you scream about your college degrees. Everyone, who actually knows anything says that the issue of the President and his birth certificate has been settled, but you won't accept it!
The other side of this is, that no matter how much proof there is that George Bush lied about WMD and Iraq or that his administration committed a treasonous offense by outing a covert CIA agent (which Todd justifies as being OK because she is a "Liberal Woman")you lambaste the people who make those claims as being liars and "left wing loons" and God knows what else.
So like typical Republican right wing nuts, you twist logic in every direction possible (and a few that aren't) in order to have things come out the way you want them too, regardless of any reality whatsoever.
And Russ, that IS crazy!

Todd Juvinall

Anybody check the airline fights around the time Obama was born to see if his folks came in from some foreign country? LOL.

George Rebane

MikeT - I feel frustrated that the only simple point made in this post has not been addressed by those of you on the other side of the aisle. There has been about every diversion possible presented in this comment stream including thorough psychological profiles of us as having all kinds of motivations and agendas besides what was presented.

This is simply a technical matter of interpreting the veracity of an online document from the point of its generation. Since it is an area in which I can comment as a professional, I sought only to state my bona fides in my ability to interpret what has been represented. This is usually done in such discussions/debates. But then, you knew that.

It appears to me that there is little point in trying for broader resolution on this matter. One side presents their evidence for the proposition it makes, the other side ignores that and simply takes the messengers to task. So be it.

Russ Steele

Mike,

If it does not matter what we say, why are you attacking us for saying it?

Brad Croul

I don't see anything wrong with enhancing an image. Leaving the layers available to the viewing public provides a type of "chain of custody"
By that I mean that it clearly shows any and all alterations to the document.
But that does not mean that Obama was not born in the U.S.
If this whole dialog is just about Adobe Illustrator editing techniques and/or a critique of some nameless graphics technician, that is one thing.
But, if people are trying to say an edited birth certificate equals Obama was not born in the U.S., that does not make sense.

One more time, if any armchair detectives want to prove it to themselves, the birth certificate is available to the public.

But, it might be a photocopy (OMG!)

Mike Thornton

The point is this gentlemen: This country is at a crossroads and it appears that you want to continue to serve up Red Herring after Red Herring instead of trying to actually fix any real problems. You demand that people answer any and every question you have, no matter how ridiculous it is and when it's clear that it is based simply on the desire to damage, not only the President of the United State's credibility as a leader, but to cast doubt upon his worthiness to be treated with even the most base level of human dignity.
I have to wonder why you do this and I can come up with a few reasons, which I have stated pretty clearly.
If you would like to tell me a different reason for continuing to beat the drum about phony non-issues, which have already been discredited, I'm all ears.
On the other hand as I stated previously, there are volumes of REAL evidence, that the previous administration lied us into a war, set the stage for crashing our economy, committed treasonous acts and more. Your response to this is not to say "There are questions that must be answered before we can move on." But instead to deny and denigrate, without any hesitation. Aren't you able to see the blatant hypocrisy in all of this? Do you even care? from where I sit, it doesn't seem like you do and so I have to ask if they don't care about these real issues, why do they get so worked up over a bunch of twice cooked BS?
To answer your question directly Russ, I believe that the liberal/progressives are nearly as much at fault as you guys are for the situation we're in as a country today.
And here's why, When Reagan, Rush and the Religious Right started the conservative push in the 1980's, that was the time for the "liberals" to have stood up and confronted the lies, misrepresentations. bullying, co-opting of language, patriotism, religion etc. Like any real bully, the thing you do to get them to stop isn't to cave in, but to smack them (figuratively) in the mouth as hard as you can and keep doing it until they give up trying to push you around. Unfortunately they didn't do this and the rest is (as they say) history.
I believe if you look at the objective record, the hard right conservative, neo-con, religious fundamentalists have broken this country to the point where it might not be able to be fixed. The progressive left is finally starting to get the fact that this isn't a game, but a fight for the future of this nation. That's something you guys have known all along and it's why you do what you do. You want to win! That's completely understandable and I believe disastrous if you're allowed too. So I'm going to do my part to confront you guys at every turn and try to hold a little ground while the progressive left is getting it's act together (and it is) to fight this fight with the same vigor, seriousness and resources that you guys have.
The big difference is that we don't have to make stuff up!

Russ Steele

Mike T,

This discussion is not about what Bush and Reagan did and what Rush thinks, it is about the validity of a document that had been demanded of McCain and others. Now the current President has given us a fake document. Address the issue! All your bloviating on other issues does not change the facts. We have a fake document, which was presented by the President of the United States as authentic and it has proven to be a fake. Why would he take that risk? You keep avoiding the facts, we are not making stuff up

Have you actually reviewed the videos? Are you afraid to view the videos? If you have viewed the video, where is the document analyst not dealing in facts? Please point out what was made up?

Brad Croul

Russ,

Interesting that you would take the word of some random YouTubers as proof that Obama is trying to cover up something.

I assume you have seen a bad photocopy before. Why would it be so far fetched to think that a bad photocopy was "tuned up" to make it more legible?


Mike Thornton

Prove it's fake Russ!
I've seen nothing yet that gives me definitive proof that it's false.
On the other hand I have the State of Hawaii telling me that Obama was born In Hawaii as he has stated all along.
Have you ever watched the video "Loose Change", Russ?
It also claims to use "scientific analysis" to prove that the "official story" of 9/11 is a cover up for a gigantic conspiracy. It looks really professional! And then I've watched the same video being dissected piece by piece by experts and they prove how one aspect after another has been misrepresented to spin the story towards the preconceived (and desired) conclusion.
Russ, even FOX "News" has given up on the "birther" conspiracy and moved on.
And frankly, if you think that amateur, detective, youtube "birther" BS is more important than a President and his administration lying this country into a war that has cost thousands of Americans their lives and trillions of taxpayer dollars, then I think you need to check out your priorities!

John Galt

I've determined that the appropriate term for those who appose "the birthers" is the fraudsters.

Incidentally, Steve Enos: The Constitution reads: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the office of President."

If one is not born on US Soil or if one is not born to US Citizens (minors exclude), one could not be a "natural born" Citizen.

Regardless, intentionally/knowingly passing a forged birth certificate as an original is more than reprehensible...it's fraud. And it's an impeachable offense.

Brad Croul

John,

If the government issues said document, it is not fraud if the government wants to change it somehow. Haven't you ever been to your local city government meetings and watched them revise the minutes of previous meetings in order to "clarify" what was said?
Is that also blatant forgery in your mind?

Mike Thornton

Senator (a Republican, of course) Jon Kyl said that over 90% of Planned Parenthood's service were providing abortions. When challenged on it, his staff said that the Senator's remarks were not meant to be " a factual statement". Kyl then went back and had his "non-factual" statement removed from the Congressional Record. Now the "official" document has no mention of a blatant lie told by a US Senator that has been thoroughly documented. Is that "fraudulent"? Or is it (as usual)in "right wing world" fine when a Republican manipulates the official record?

John Galt

Brad, Mike, your points have some merit, but I don't see how it applies.

A birth certificate is an official document representing a factual event...the birth of a human.

There's a tiny tiny tiny spot in me that could allow for Obama to not produce his birth certificate.

There is absolutely no grounds for presenting a forged birth certificate as the original article.

Now if, on the official white house website next to the birth certificate bearing his name he had written:

My fellow Americans, below is a facsimile of by birth certificate. I've have authorized the altering of this document to protect certain individuals and preserve my privacy. So that you know what was altered, I have presented altered birth certificate in Adobe Acrobat Reader format so that anyone with Adobe Illustrator can see the alterations I have made. Though this is not an exact copy of my birth certificate, you have my word that I was born in Hawaii.

That would bear some resemblance to the situations you describe.

The difference is that The President of The United States presented a forged document as the genuine article.

To be intentionally evasive is one thing.

To be intentionally deceptive is a far different matter. In my view this is an impeachable offense.

Brad Croul

John,

With the release of the PDF, and associated adjustment layers visible, I have to conclude that no cover up was made. Just the opposite is true. If they wanted to cover up a forgery why didn't they save the document as a TIFF, or other file format, so no layers would be included?

Other possibilities exist also. What if the records were destroyed during a fire or due to a leaky roof? How would the state handle that? It rains frequently and can be humid. Sitting in a damp basement somewhere for over 50 years, a paper document could become damp, pages could stick together, and become almost illegible. Maybe they found the document but it was thrashed, so they tried to fix it.


John Galt

Brad we agree on four points.

One: The document that President Obama presented as his birth certificate has multiple "layers" to it.

Two: That the presence of the multiple layers means that the document was manufactured. That is to say it was assembled and/or edited (some might say forged) and is not a photocopy or scanned copy of Barack Hussein Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

Three: That Obama's long form birth certificate may not exist.

Four: There there could be a bona-fide reason why Obama's long-form birth certificate does not exist. (for example fire, leaky roof, moldy paper, etc.)


We disagree on these points:

One: That because the birth certificate was so clearly--so obviously--so undeniably manufactured it couldn't have been an intentional attempt to deceive. (This is also known as the "no one could be that stupid defense" There are many reasons to object this notion. First, it's unverifiable. Second, the document's manipulation was discovered by people with expertise with Adobe and/or with forensic analysis. To the average person viewing the file without those tools or experience, the document "appeared" genuine. Third, stupidity and/or getting caught is not a legal defense. History is replete with politicians (and criminals) doing stupid things and getting caught.


Two: That a bona-fide explanation of why Obama's birth certificate doesn't exist (assuming that's true) is justification for President Obama to knowingly present a manufactured long-form birth certificate as a genuine original certificate for the purpose of laying to rest the debate about his failure to meet the constitutional requirements to hold the office of President of the United States of America. By definition, this was a deceptive act...quite similar to deceptive acts of preceding Presidents--and thus deserves equal treatment.

For the moment, let's consider your theory that there is a bona-fide reason why Barack Hussein Obama's birth certificate no longer exists due to:

Destroyed by fire: If this were the case, there would be newspaper reports and volumes of other corroborating data documenting the fire. And the long-form birth certificates of many individuals would be missing. It's quite likely that an effort to contact the people with destroyed birth certificates would be made and that some official replacement would be made.

Destroyed by humidity: The notion that Hawaii's records office hasn't conquered humidity issues for its records seems very remote, but if this were true, again many other individuals would be affected (not just BHO). Again, it's quite likely that an effort to contact the people with destroyed birth certificates would be made and that some official replacement would be made. Furthermore, complete destruction by humidity is extremely remote.

Destroyed by water: Again, a major destruction of records due to water damage from a leaky roof would be documented in many newspaper reports, and be well within the memory of public officials.

Whatever disaster you want to conjure, you need to ask yourself did this disaster somehow only affect Barack Hussein Obama's birth certificate? Otherwise a lot of other people will have missing or damaged long-form birth certificates.

In addition, how do we reconcile the statements of Obama's supporters with your theory that his long-form birth certificate was destroyed? We have a variety of Hawaii public officials stating that they've seen the long form birth certificate--well now which one is that Obama's manufactured one or the original genuine certificate?

If Barack Hussein Obama's long form birth certificate is the only one missing out of all the other records, then the public should be informed of that...and let them evaluate the plausibility of that scenario.

The bottom line: There is NO justification for presenting a manufactured/assembled/forged birth certificate as the original document.

And there is no justification for carrying on this mystery of Obama's citizenship. By presenting a manufactured/altered (forged) birth certificate Obama has only increased our curiosity and anxiety over his citizenship. For millions of Americans, presenting one's birth certificate is a simple and trivial matter, it makes no sense for Obama to continue this drama....unless of course he thinks that by stonewalling this issue he can prevent Citizens from knowing that he doesn't meet the Constitutional requirements to hold his office.

Greg Goodknight

Give it up people, the composite looks to me to be the creation of the State of Hawaii. My California 'long form' certificate is the same size as the text section, and my reading of all of this is that Hawaii creates official copies of the microfiched originals by digitizing them (a black and white scan) and adding that to a banknote background.

There's no there, there. While it may well be there are embarrassing issues in his other blocked records, but this wasn't it. If anything, it may well have been withheld until now to neutralize 'birthers' going into the second term election.

This is a dry hole. Go back to "it's the economy, stupid" which worked so well for Clinton when the economy was in a Roaring 20's boom compared to what it is now.

Todd Juvinall

Come on Greg, this is fun. I want to know if Obama's mom gave up her citizenship when she lived overseas. Inquiring minds want to know.

Greg Goodknight

Todd, that must be a meaning of the word "fun" of which I was previously unaware.

On second thought, it ain't.

Todd Juvinall

party pooper. LOL

Mike Thornton

Greg suggests that the Obama haters take a more rational course and actually address some real issues for a change. God only hope they listen Greg, we've wasted way too much time on this lunacy already.

Greg Goodknight

As usual, Thornton gets it wrong.

Mike Thornton

I was giving you a compliment, Greg.
I guess I'll take it back.

Todd Juvinall

Greg, the left wants us to move on and not ask questions about an event happening now, yet they dwell on American history as bad and are incessant. Therefore, when they squeal about the Obama BC, that tells me they are worried about something.

Mike Thornton

Zzzzzzzzzzz, yawn, Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Todd Juvinall

That is the most intelligent thing you have said so far. Excellent!

Jack McClure:

I have a simple comment for Mike. it seems that only people talking about race are you racists on the left. You cannot develop a logical argument so you go back to race. You and your ilk need to climb back under the rocks and slime you came from.

Mike Thornton

My "logical argument" is that no "White" President would ever be subjected to this!
Talk about "slime" and "rocks", look in the mirror, Jack!

Steve Enos

Hey George... how do you fell about "Jacks McClure's" post as follows?:

I have a simple comment for Mike. it seems that only people talking about race are you racists on the left. You cannot develop a logical argument so you go back to race. You and your ilk need to climb back under the rocks and slime you came from.


John Galt

This exchange reminds me of the fable story of The Emperor Who Wore No Clothes. Here we have a President who nakedly presents a forged birth certificate as his own authentic one.

The leftists, Commicrats, and Marxicrats intimidate the "see-ers" (those who see the naked forgery). They are vilified as racists, extremists, birthers, haters, elitest, etc.

This tactic works on the sheeple amongst us.

But fortunately, there will always be some with the strength of character to stand up and say The Emperor has no clothes...or in this case...The President's birth certificate is a forgery.

If you believe the President intended to present an authentic birth certificate, or if you believe that he is a bona-fide Natural Born US Citizen, you must ask yourself why he has not replaced the forged birth certificate with the authentic one.

John Galt

Thanks George for the update.

WND is now reporting that the typo in the Hawaii stamp area of the birth certificate is yet another example of the forgery.

see: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=298101

Look carefully at the registrar's stamp at the bottom of the certificate.. "The" is mispelled.

Still some "Sheeple" will be herded in to believing some conjured excuse for why the official registrar's stamp on Obama's birch certificate has a typo, but no other birth certificates by the registrar have that typo....but I got to believe the number of "Sheeple" is dwindling as BO's approval rating is below 50% again.

John Galt

George,

Excellent letter to Igor. Your point #4 is precisely right on...a point I was trying to make myself.

Thanks for sharing your letter...and for working to get the attention of Representative McClintock.

As you suggested in a subsequent blog, this matter may be "too hot to handle." The disruption to everything that the beltway (right and left) holds dear would be catastrophic if it were determined that BO was not eligible to hold office.

Russ Steele

The 22-page criminal complaint filed with the FBI by document-imaging expert Doug Vogt charges that individuals within the Hawaii Department of Health, Obama political operatives and an unidentified graphic artist worked in a multi-state conspiracy to create a fraudulent long-form birth certificate for Barack Obama.

Vogt’s complaint asserts: “I have irrefutably proven that the Certificate of Live Birth that President Obama presented to the world on April 27, 2011 is a fraudulently created document put together using the Adobe Photoshop or Illustrator programs.”

He claims the long-form birth certificate the White House released April 27 as an electronic document in PDF format was forged from a composite of legitimate birth certificates obtained from the Hawaii DOH archives and manipulated to replace the original authentic information.

As WND has previously reported, Obama’s birth certificate number appears to be out of sequence with the birth certificate numbers given to twins born a day after Obama.

Susan Nordyke, the first twin, was born at 2:12 p.m. Aug. 5, 1961, and was given certificate No. 151 – 61 – 10637, which was filed with the Hawaii registrar on Aug. 11, 1961. Gretchen Nordyke was born at 2:17 p.m. and was given certificate No. 151 – 61 – 10638, which was also filed with the Hawaii registrar Aug. 11, 1961.

Barack Obama was given certificate No. 151 – 61 – 10641, even though he was born Aug. 4, 1961, the day before the Nordyke twins, and his birth was registered with the Hawaii Department of Health registrar three days earlier, Aug. 8, 1961.

Todd Juvinall

Has anyone checked to see if his mother was actually a citizen? Living abroad and having a fancy for foreigners she may have renounced and become a free spirited citizen of the world? Anyway, perhaps the search needs to be expanded to ensure Obama is telling us the truth?

John Galt

World Net Daily is reporting on this news thoroughly at www.WND.com

As this story progresses, I think Herman Cain is well positioned to capture a signficant portion of the voters that voted for Obama (plus all the conservative votes).

Cain-Bachman is the 1-2 ticket.

Mike Thornton

Gee whiz....
What do you guys do, just go from attacking the "local" Black guy to the "national" Black guy and then back again?

John Galt

Cain, Diaz, and Obama are all black. You apparently can't see the common thread that separates Cain from the other two.

Consider focusing on that common thread, and less on their color pigmentation.

The Republicans freed the slaves and lead the way for civil rights, isn't it time you followed MLK's dream?

Todd Juvinall

Galt, the liberals are simply liberals and anyone who has a problem with a person's policies who is not a white person is a racist. The left has simply dumbed themselves down to the lowest common denominator and Thornton is a local poster child for that. I wonder how the left comes to grips with whites and blacks on the African continent since every state there is run by blacks? Especially Zimbabwe.

The comments to this entry are closed.