Discussing Norway and Breivik

George Rebane

“Norway's murders shouldn't be an excuse to shut down debate over multiculturalism and the failure of many Muslims to assimilate to Europe's cultural norms. British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy have broken taboos by speaking sensibly on the subject. Democracies need to address their anxieties openly, rather than push the political debate underground where the likes of an Anders Breivik can let them stew into a rationale for violence.”  26jul11 WSJ

The recent terror in Norway is an event that again has altered our times.  But it is not yet clear that its dissection in the aftermath will serve to illuminate these times.  This is made amply clear in the various media venues that serve commentary and discussion.  The event most certainly has highlighted the radically different views held by various ideologically defined cohorts, and in the US it is another timber thrown into the fire that continues to consume the bonds holding the country together.

This is no more visible than on these very pages as documented in the comment stream for ‘Norway Terror’.  For the more attentive reader, it is obvious that much of the generated heat comes from the discussants not taking the time (or being able?) to understand that they are semantically imprecise and all over the map when presenting their views.  Semantically orthogonal aspects of the case are co-joined willy nilly and the discussion wanders in random circles, resolving nothing, including where people stand on the related ideas and issues.

In the hope that more commenters here are people of good will, people who want to use this venue to clarify, dispute, or confront each other’s ideas instead of continuing to play ad hominem ‘gotcha’, I offer the following (no doubt incomplete) list of semantically orthogonal notions about the Norway tragedy, and invite others to add to it their own discoveries as they meditate on the greater dimensions of this tragedy.

Then in no particular order, some semantically orthogonal (or independent) areas that come under the larger umbrella of ideas and notions arising from Norway’s terror are –

1. The right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland,
2. The right of a culture to spread trans-nationally through (assimilating, insular) settlements,
3. The historical impact of multi-culturalism (cultural mixing) on individual cultures,
4. The status and objectives of the current multi-nationally based Islamic jihad,
5. The status and objectives of non-Islamic needs for energy from Islamic lands,
6. The social impact of EU immigration policy,
7. Major themes in today’s European acceptance/confrontation with Muslim immigrants,
8. Norway’s immigration policy,
9. The behavior of Muslims in Norway,
10. The formal political structure of Norway (major, minor political parties and recognized nationalistic and trans-nationalistic movements),
11.  Norway’s sub-rosa political structure (secret organizations, terror cells, etc),
12.  The recent sentiments of ethnic Norwegians toward immigration in general,
13.  The recent sentiments of ethnic Norwegians toward its Muslim population,
14.  Legitimate and illegitimate means of opposing cultural dilution,
15.  The ideas in Breivik’s manifesto/compendium,
16.  Assessment of Breivik’s stated objectives,
17.  Assessment of Breivik’s means (the terror killings),
18.  Assessment of Breivik’s sanity and/or mental state,
19.  Impact of extra-national political movements and policies on Norway,
20.  The political future of Europe,
21.  The ethnic future of Europe,
22.  The future of western culture in Europe,
23.  What the Breivik massacre reveals about American politics,
24.  New and beneficial policies for Norway,
25.  New and beneficial policies for America.

If a discussant is unwilling to recognize how these notions stand on their own, then it should be his job to establish, identify, and defend any co-joinings in his arguments.  If a discussant doesn’t understand any of this, then it is better for all if he continues to study the matter and remains a passive reader of the debate until the ‘Aha!’ occurs.

Comments

[Douglas Keachie]

Classic example of "compartmentalized thinking," Psych 101A.

" In this pile I have this, and in that pile I have that, and I recognize virtually no connections between the piles unless I have my nose thoroughly rubbed in them, and I am loath to recognize the possibility of yet more and different piles, etc."

He who structures the intellectual framework always wins, at least in his own mind.

[George Rebane]

Thank you again DougK. One of the great triumphs of western intellectual history is analysis of the observed into useful and distinct components from which subsequent things/ideas could then be endlessly synthesized. Primitive cultures and minds are cursed with their inability to perform these functions nor benefit from their application.

The "compartmentalized thinking" you seem to decry is a liability, not when you are able identify (here semantically orthogonal) "compartments", but only when you are not able to recognize such domains and travel at will across the rich landscapes into which they endlessly assemble. Pity.

[Account Deleted]

Hey Douglas - Who are you quoting? Or have you once again failed to understand George's post and you are wandering off? I didn't see anything that said there was no connection - just that we can examine each subject on it's own and deal with them separately or together as we find a common thread.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Of 25 thought provoking statements you go off on some unknown un- understandable tangient - amazing

[Douglas Keachie]

Just like to see slightly more global thinking, economics wise. How is the Norway working person's life and future similar and different from the USA working person, for example? Need no pity, and if you must smirk, please share it with a mirror...You might learn something.

[Account Deleted]

George - I think we just lost Douglas. The hemp must be extra fine tonight.

[Greg Goodknight]

you can't lose what never was.

[stevenfrisch]

How nice of George to continue the grim work of Anders Behring Breivik by asking the questions Anders would have put to the West in a courtroom had he had the chance yesterday. It is hard for me to tell where one Nordic ‘visionary’ ends and the other begins.

George opening with this quote from the Wall Street Journal’s discredited editorial page really says it all: “Norway’s murders shouldn’t be an excuse to shut down debate over multiculturalism….”

Well, George, who is trying to shut down debate over anything? No one has said the issue should not be discussed. By raising this red herring, the implication that people are trying to squelch debate over multi-culturalism, you are already distorting the issue, and framing it as though those that oppose multiculturalism are victims. Your crew of sycophantic followers may fall for that but do you really think that thinking people are that simple?

Let us go a little deeper. Since when does a “right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland” exist?

Human history has been one of migration of peoples from the savannah of east Africa to the poles (unless you believe we were pulled from Adams rib 6000 years ago).

I have no right for my culture to endure; my culture endures because I engage in it, I create, I celebrate, I advance. And what culture would we want to endure? Should we freeze culture at a specific date (like 1938) and hold it there, against the strains and stresses of migration, economies, and modernity? Just what culture are we having endure? Isn’t it the nature of a culture to evolve? If not it would get pretty damn boring watching Gotterdammerung over and over again.

The very premise is absurd.

Please read the above list of questions and ask yourself the question, “who is speaking here, is it George or is it Anders?”

Not only is this list of questions absurd, the logical progression of the questions leads to the ending salvo: “what is the ethnic future of Europe?, what is the future of western culture in Europe?, what does the Breivik massacre reveal about American politics?, what are the new and beneficial policies for America?”

I’ll tell you what it tells me; it tells me that insulated, ideological, white supremacists like you should never be allowed to gain power in America.

I mean what kind of bullsh&t manipulation of a tragedy is this George? You think that a guy kills 80 people and you can use the event to to advance the idea that Americans should protect their “culture” by thinking about “new and beneficial policies”?

I think you are still an Estonian, or Lithuanian, or Latvian, or Teutonic knight, or whatever the hell you were as a Jugend.

I prefer the response of Norway’s Prime Minsiter. “”It’s absolutely possible to have an open, democratic, inclusive society, and at the same time have security measures and not be naive,” he said.

The response to terror is not more terror: the response to terror is more democracy.

(Feel free to question my ability to read, or think critically, or belittle my former career as a chef, or my origins, or my right to speak as a someone who works for a non-profit, or use your twisted propaganda to imply that only your nordic brain is capable of fully understanding just what anyone is saying as you usually do with anyone who makes a valid point that counters your ethnocentrism).

[Steve Enos]

Under Geroge's first story on this tragic event George ranted:

"The little minds, that try to equate Islam to Christianity in its power to inspire action, have no understanding of what the west faces as its ramparts are breached. Let me put it directly - politically correct socialist slogans will not save what we have built, and what so many of us still cherish about western civilization".

Seems George has only 1,499 pages more to write to match Anders Behring Breivik 1,500 page rant. Georges's rant above is an almost exact match to Anders Behring Breivik rantings.

[George Rebane]

SteveF's extended response is not unexpected, and unfortunately typical of the collective left. There is no desire to discuss these points, but only to attack anyone who would even put them on the table for discussion. That further corroborates their importance to the west, because in their restatement each of them has been and continues to be discussed (especially in the west) for other cultures whose members do not hesitate to engage in stating their preferences and values.

This has nowhere been more highlighted than in the public prounouncements of European political leaders, and in the world's leading press which is constantly "discredited" by the hard left. We can be sure that all of the above notions that I have listed, and more, have and are being discussed in Europe by serious and educated people of all political colorations and also at the highest levels. In their partisan caucuses they may come to widely different conclusions, but simplistic dismissals of these topics are not on their agendas.

From my experience the progressives fear such open discussion because they do not see any reasonable thread there that will support their worldview. I'm not sure that they are correct in this, but it would take an open and frank discussion of the ideas to establish that.

The tenor of the SteveF response also underlines the crux of our polarization. The most recent to this this was commenter Greg Goodnight's observation that those on the left think those on the right are evil, while those on the right think that those on the left are just wrong. The above screed is just another instance of that.

[stevenfrisch]

The very premise of the questions is propaganda. We in the center are always ready to discuss ideas, we just reject your framing of the issues in fear based, religiously bigoted, and moralistic tones. I don't think you, or any one here, is evil: I merely think you are all ignorant, sad and frustrated by your declining status as paragons of white Christian virtue.

[Douglas Keachie]

If you research it carefully, you'll discover the Celtic culture got its start down around the northern borders of the Black Sea, and, through time, they transmorgified themselves across Europe and up into the Emerald Isles.

Shall we all return to Chaucerian English, as we have progressed little in religious thinking?

And therfore, of his wise purveiaunce,
He hath so wel biset his ordinaunce
That speces of thynges and progressiouns
Shullen enduren by successiouns,
And nat eterne, withouten any lye. (1.3011-15)
[And so our God, from wisdom and foresight divine,
Has carefully established every line,
Allowing different species living on earth
To endure by succession only; first comes birth,
Then death. Life on earth is never eternal.] (2140-44)

This passage is a reworking in verse--a translation in a broader sense--of what Chaucer had already put into English prose in his translation of Boethius's Consolation, which he called Boece. It is also a translation in the sense that Chaucer took it from the speeches of Lady Philosophy in the Consolation, who tries to reconcile the Christian Boethius to his misfortune, and gave it to a pagan ruler who is urging his small circle of intimates to accept an inexplicable death and get on with their lives.

Chaucer's assimilation of Boethius is testimony to his engagement with certain central issues in Christian thought of the Middle Ages. First of all, if God is good, why is there so much suffering and evil in the world? Second, if God is omniscient, he must know what is to come, and if he knows the future, it is there anything we can do to change it? And if we are predestined to enact what is divinely known, how can we have free will? Boethius answers the first question by saying that evil and pain in the world are real to us only because we seek happiness in the wrong forms, that is, in worldly things such as goods, fame, and family. If we seek happiness rightly, in God alone, then we can transcend earthly hardships. To the question about God's foreknowledge and man's free will, Boethius responds that, since God is outside of time, his knowledge is not truly about the future. The past, present, and future of human beings are all one to God, who thus does not "foresee" or predetermine human actions. Furthermore, man's passions are what make him subject to the chain of inevitable cause and effect. Once a man rises above his passions by loving God, his will is free. Although Boethius seems to endorse a dualistic view that despises worldly things in favor of the divine, at times he suggests the possibility of reconciling the two realms, as in the joy he takes in "the fayre chaine of love" (quoted above in Chaucer's adaptation for The Knight's Tale) that orders all earthly things. Chaucer was heavily influenced by Boethius's dualism, but he was sometimes attracted by the possibility of synthesizing the two extremes (Brewer 92-93).

[Steve Frisch]

I think the most interesting thing about your blog George is that you talk like an intellectual but think like a Stormtrooper. It's what keeps the rational thinkers coming back again and again. They are like NASCAR fans waiting for Götterdämmerung.

[Douglas Keachie]

And for our friend, the PropWasher, the source.

http://salempress.com/Store/samples/critical_insights/canterbury_translation.htm

[Todd Juvinall]

George, SteveF is a plain old leftwingnut hypocrite. He has yet to list the ethnicity of his freeloading tax ripoff SBC and yet calls others racist. Just a plain vanilla old lefty loser. He sure can bloviate though.

What also strikes me as funny is his dislike of those that served. He never served apparently yet he has an opinion on those that did. The true liberal. Stalin would be proud of his progeny.

[Douglas Keachie]

We really need a "ThumbsUp/Down" indicator for the comments here. Steve scores again!

BTW you do all understand that exercising the brain is the best way to avoid losing it, and thus we all have a common interest in debating here, as the quality of thought and expression, if not the content, is well above The Union, which is blundering along with moderated and banned commenting and commentors. I fall into the latter category.

[Steve Frisch]

You can't hide bigotry behind a uniform and call it patriotism.

[Todd Juvinall]

No bigots here SteveF. You?

[Steve Frisch]

What I am saying, quite clearly, Todd, is that service to our country does not give one a pass for being a bigot. For you to imply that, which you do when you bring it up, is evidence of your fundamental inability to understand our societal and historic values.

I have heard about people with average IQ''s but honestly did not think until now about how dull being average really must be for you.

[George Rebane]

Wow! Another volley of mudballs through the other's rigging.

DougK - loved your 925am comment. There's a lot more to be said about cultural and ethnic migrations, and most certainly about the conundra you list about God. Perhaps we can do that under another piece that is in the works - working title 'Does God Watch Paint Dry?'

My own ethnic heritage goes back to Mongolia. Estonians, Finns, and (believe it or not) Hungarians are classed as Finno-Ugrics, and our languages of similar construct are the three Finno-Ugric languages of Europe, they have no Indo-European roots. In their trek from Asia, these people left colonies in the Urals where today there still exist isolated valleys of villages in which the mother-tongue is old Estonian.

The cultural and ethnic dynamic is intersting indeed. My own belief is that we derive most from different cultures when they are allowed to flower and express themselves in an evolutionary process that supports behaviors becoming mature enough to be tested over some useful interval of time. Forced rapid change in cultures destroys the ability for such expression and evaluation. In such processes no attributable or enduring literature, art, or science is created, and it's hard to tell what worked or didn't so that in our own culture we may condemn or copy it, and thereby evolve accordingly.

[Account Deleted]

Got to love the libs here. George puts forth some points of discussion and right off the tolerant left starts telling him these are not acceptable points. I notice the 2 worst things they can compare you to are stormtroopers and NASCAR fans. It might (or not) interest the left, but those NASCAR fans are a big part of why we have the freedoms we enjoy in this country. No bigotry here, no siree! The left is all about lumping you into a group and assigning a moral value to said group.
"I don't think you, or any one here, is evil: I merely think you are all ignorant, sad and frustrated by your declining status as paragons of white Christian virtue."
No, StevenF - My status has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. I don't care a fig about what a person's skin color is. This is about history and value systems and the basic premise of Christianity. There is nothing in the teachings of Christ about slaughtering humans or using violence to advance the cause of Christianity. Islam is about violence and in fact Mohammed did wage warfare to spread his religion. There are almost no Islamic countries today where any other religion is tolerated in any form, whereas in countries that are traditionally Christian or have Christian backgrounds, Islam and other religions are welcomed and can be openly practised. Free inquiry and personal responsibility are some of the other main points of what we on the conservative side see as being threatened by the rise of the modern left and their strange tolerance of the ideas of a religion that is not tolerant towards them. No one here on this blog from the conservative side has advocated violence to advance our thoughts or ideas.

[Todd Juvinall]

SteveF enjoys the freedoms to spew his hate because people like George fought in the military to protect those rights. SteveF would actually probably survive in a Islamic country because he would sell out and grasp their religion to survive (no beliefs except self). He has no basic patriotic beliefs that I can see. The left is always brave when they know people are taking the bullets for them. Then when things get a little risky they cry and run. I think SteveF said on a post somewhere else that the military was filled with people of average or less intelligence than the general population. I bet he will run under the khaki's of the female soldiers to save himself.

[stevenfrisch]

I think Scott just about laid it out: this is a Crusade against Islam, by people who know nothing about the beauty of the culture, diversity of the faith, accomplishment of its members, or potential for its future.

This is the very definition of religious bigotry.

Fortunately, as an atheist, I do not need to suffer from the dark side of hatred inherent in the institutions that enforce these faiths, and can internalize the beauty of knowing them all.

[JimS]

His lush mane shimmered in the wind
He serenely watched over his pride
Crushing jaws gripped his neck 'til stilled
The cubs were eaten
The fecund pride sauntered down to the watering hole

[Douglas Keachie]

SObermuller, I think you misread the following:

"It's what keeps the rational thinkers coming back again and again. They are like NASCAR fans waiting for Götterdämmerung."

The lefties are the rational thinkers being referred to.

You might want to know:

Definition of GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG
: a collapse (as of a society or regime) marked by catastrophic violence and disorder; broadly : downfall
Examples of GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG

Origin of GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG
German, literally, twilight of the gods, from Götter (plural of Gott god) + Dämmerung twilight
First Known Use: 1909

GRebane, always happy to discuss the meaning of existence, and the improbability factors involved.

[stevenfrisch]

Doug, thanks for teaching Scott a little western culture. They know it so well.

[Todd Juvinall]

Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness.

[Todd Juvinall]

h, still no responses from the lftwingers here, only bloviating.

[Douglas Keachie]

@JimS:

"They say at full-mast he steals a woman's mind from her body. Claims her soul." The Queen dropped fringed lashes to shield eyes alight with the iridescent fire of mischievous intent. How easily my men are provoked!

The man rolled his eyes and disdain etched his arrogant profile. He crossed his legs at the ankles and gazed out across the sea.

But the Queen wasn't fooled. The man at her feet was vainglorious, and not as impervious to her provocation as he feigned.

"Quit baiting him, my Queen," King Finnbheara admonished. "You know how the fool gets when his ego is wounded." He patted her arm soothingly. "You've teased him enough"

The Queen's eyes narrowed thoughtfully. She briefly considered forgoing this vein of revenge. A calculating look at her men dashed that thought, as she recalled what she'd overheard them discussing late last evening in excruciating detail.

[George Rebane]

The first known use of Götterdämmerung is lost in the mists of its translation from Nordic myth to German. Its best known path into modern usage derived from Wagner's last Ring opera 'Götterdämmerung' which premiered in 1876, although it was already a mature and well-used notion in German long before that date.

[Steve Enos]

Here are just some of the atheists in history and some of what they had to say.

Benjamin Franklin being just one of them. So under Todd's claim Benjamin Franklin believed "in nothing of beauty, only darkness".

Try these atheists for a start:

1. Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night — Isaac Asimov

2. I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life. — Andrew Carnegie

3. All thinking men are atheists. — Ernest Hemingway

4. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

5. Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche

6. The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. — George Bernard Shaw

7. Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. — Kurt Vonnegut

8. I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. — Frank Lloyd Wright

9. Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. — Denis Diderot

10. A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. — Samuel Clemens

11. The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. — Sigmund Freud

12. Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon

13. The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. — Ferdinand Magellan

14. Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen

15. It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous. — Gloria Steinem

[Paul Emery]

Did you fight in the military Todd? Who took the bullets for you?

I agree with Steve about the lack of awareness of the diversity of the Islamic culture by most participants in this blog. The Salam Center in Sacramento welcomes inquiry and engagement with those who would seek dialog about the Religion of Islam and it's history. You can contact them here.

http://salamcenter.org/

[Steve Enos]

Here's a great little video about some well know atheists... including Warren Buffett, Billy Joel and some guy that started Microsoft:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIwkrHhQIMA

[George Rebane]

"... we just reject your framing of the issues in fear based, religiously bigoted, and moralistic tones."

Well then, let someone from the left take any one of the above 25 issues and demonstrate its basis in fear, religious bigotry, or some known standard of morality.

The only fear that has been demonstrated here so far is the fear of confronting, through reasoned discourse, any of the notions that I have posted.

[Steve Enos]

Here's another short, great video listing a number of known atheists... including Benjamin Franklin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1OCMSG9CIE&feature=related

But Todd says... "Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness".

[Steve Enos]

Oh, John Adams... a founding father of our Country... also an atheist!

[George Rebane]

SteveE - you must have a deeply buried point about all your references to atheism. Can you uncover it for us? Else you look as if you don't know what's going on in this comment stream.

PaulE - perhaps you could invite someone from the Salam Center to join us and dissect one of the 25 ideas I offered in this post. Islam has been coming to us in many ways that are fearful, perhaps someone from there can come and bring some balance to what their brethren have been doing.

[Douglas Keachie]

Let's not forget us Hopeful Agnostics, the world's simplest explanation of existence after the body's molecules all agree to disagree and go their separate ways.

After death, 3 possibilities:

worse,

same,

or better.

2 out of three is not bad odds, and there is no reliable information available to weigh any possibility any higher than any other.

[Steve Enos]

The there is Pat Tillman.

US Army Ranger and NFL star, killed in combat serving and defending the USA... also an atheist!

But Todd says US Army Ranger Pat Tillman believed "in nothing of beauty, only darkness".

[George Rebane]

Perhaps we can put atheism to bed here by acknowledging it as the belief system akin to the religion that it is. Philosophers and scientists have longed informed us that the existence and non-existence of God cannot be proved (i.e. God's absence cannot be falsified even though Its existence does satisfy Occam). Therefore an atheist's belief is fashioned of the same cloth as that of those who do believe in God. It is the agnostic who simply accepts the question as one deprived of a reasoned settlement, and goes on with life sanguine with that conclusion.

[Steve Enos]

George... you posted:

"SteveE - you must have a deeply buried point about all your references to atheism. Can you uncover it for us? Else you look as if you don't know what's going on in this comment stream".

Well here's why I provided the info on atheists. One just needs to read "this comment stream" above to see the reason.

You see George it was a DIRECT and SPECIFIC response to Todd's two posts above. Todd made a claim and then Todd wanted to know where the response was. I provided a response to Todd's statement and his request for a response... it's really simple, I did what Todd asked for.

Here's Todd's posts from the above "comment stream":

"Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness".

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2011 at 11:10 AM

"still no responses from the lftwingers here, only bloviating".

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2011 at 11:16 AM

[Douglas Keachie]

@GRebane:

Todd brought up the notion that Steve would adapt to Islam, Then Steve indicated that he was an atheist. Then Todd declared all atheists know nothing but darkness, and that unleashed the flood of evidence from Steve to the contrary. Ain't we got fun?

[Steve Enos]

George, do you agree with Todd's claim that "Atheists believe in nothing of beauty, only darkness"?

[Paul Emery]

George

Inviting representatives from the Salam Center to Nevada County for an evening of discussion and dialog is an excellent idea. I'll see what I can do to make it happen.

[Steve Enos]

Douglas... thanks for pointing out "this comment stream" and why I posted infomation about atheists.

I just responded to Todd's posts and his specific request above for a response "from the lftwingers here".

[Steve Wynn]

Todd, just how much service did you participate in? (is none a number?)

I guess in your little mind you're "qualified" to speak with those of us who actually have done more than cry about others.

[George Rebane]

OK gentlemen, you've provided the unfortunate thread to the 'atheist detour' which I apparently missed. My apologies.

I'm still waiting for some coherent discussion of one of the 25, or even an answer to my 1143am comment. Maybe it will be a long wait, I hope not.

In the interval I received the following link from a regular RR reader that might redirect the discussion.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2011/07/only-acceptable-diagnosis.html

[John S]

I am not really sure what it does for all of you to get so deeply off the subject matter right from the get-go.
George, great list, sorry to see you were attacked for even thinking about putting them to print. Good grief!

[Mike Thornton]

Paul:
Mohammed Aziz is the Imam at SALAM
He's been to KVMR in the past and took questions about Islam, live on air for two hours, one evening.

[Mike Thornton]

Oh heck!
I forgot to add
(removed for actually knowing a Muslim)

[Todd Juvinall]

I see the rabid dogs of leftism go apoplectic when they claim kinship with Islam and call themselves atheists and they are called on it. Now how is that possible? The reason it came up was because SteveF brought it up. My questions were for him yet his clone SteveE came to his stead. George's list is being avoided by the libs here because it is too deep for them to understand and comment on.

Regarding military service. I did not serve in the military. The difference between me and the others is I support our military they don't. I appreciate their sacrifice, they don't. I respect people like George and Russ who fought for me and my freedom, they don't.

[Paul Emery]

Yes Todd, you support them but wouldn't put yourself in harms way preferring to have others to do dirty work for you. Were you of military age during the Vietnam War?.

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE did you serve? You were age eligible for Vietnam. I was in the first lottery and had a ow number, 326. I was never called but was 1A.

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen, I'm getting desperate in trying to maintain RR as a forum for discussing stimulating and timely ideas instead of a playpen for petulant kids who don't like each other but are old enough for the AARP. As you see, even wildly tangential notions are tolerated here, but the mudball madness has got to stop. I'll try something else; please forgive my clumsy efforts.

[Mike Thornton]

George:
[deleted snarky comment]

[Brad Croul]

"George's list is being avoided by the libs here because it is too deep for them to understand and comment on." -What is your excuse, Todd? I did not see one comment on this topic by you that was on topic. All your comments are name-calling attacks on other guests with whom you do not see eye-to-eye with.

George,

I see over half of the 25 talking points you listed as being linked to cultural differences. These cultural differences are really more about religion than the kind of clothes we wear, or what kinds of foods people like to eat in different cultures.

I see it as people just being suspicious of "strangers in the hollow". My theory is that people with these tendencies are more conservative, less well educated, and like things as they "always were".

Breivik states that he has an "equivalent" of 7 years of post high school study under his belt. What I think he missed is actually being with other "strangers" in institution of higher learning. Instead, I think he spent years holed up in his basement reading only about non-culturally related stuff and playing video games.

People need to get out more and travel to different places to see that we are more alike than not.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Amazing just amazing - not 1, not even a hint of a comment on Georges 25 questions - yet we are on religion - which had nothing to do with the act in the first place - read Georges updated link and try and comment, it is from Europe - BTW thats where this happened

[Dixon Cruickshank]

BTW the gentleman that wrote the piece in the link is quoted in the manifesto

[Mike Thornton]

Being TJ on RR "means never having to say you're sorry".
(removed for being truthful, again)

[stevenfrisch]

Hey George, I just mentioned that I am an atheist. The topic here is about religion. It was Todd who decided to attack that. A lot of the fear of Islam is about its threat to Christianity. If you see religion as an tangential issue I'm not sure what this is really all about.

[Douglas Keachie]

It's probably just a regional folklore variation, but 326 would have been considered a "high" number, not a low one. I believe mine was 122, and the day I hit the Oakland Induction Center in a nice suit and tie, worked my way up to the hearing checking section, told the dude of my situation and got him to test me, about a year in advance of actually call up, I failed it miserably. About the happiest day of my life, up til then. I-Y, which is halfway towards 4F. Being hard of hearing and going out "on patrol," just doesn't work so good.

[George Rebane]

BradC, your points are clear. I would just remind us all that the more important attributes through which a culture is seen include language, literature, art, science, traditions, religion, education, common history, etc before we come to clothing and food, which, of course, also reflect through a culture.

People overwhelmingly accept that what they most want to preserve in their social environment is their culture. As I have written on these pages, a strong culture encodes the values and mores of a people that also lets them reliably predict each other's behavior in the affairs of the day. This is a great efficiency since it frees individuals to work and explore confidently within known norms, and also know when they are getting close to established boundaries.

It goes without expansion that not all cultures are of equal benefit to their members, and some are simply stifling, bordering on ever-present terror for their maintenance. Anthropologists tell us that the Pacific islanders maintained their various cultures through a class hierarchy based on systems of ever present taboos the violation of which brought on draconian punishments. In the modern day, the USSR replicated such cultural attributes.

But coming full circle, culture is still the recognized controller of societies, and also its greatest differentiator. Extinguishing established cultures has become one of the top priorities of a nascent autocracy, and an absolute must of a tyranny. It was Rome that last recognized the empire's peace by letting conquered cultures remain in place as long as proper tribute was rendered unto Caesar. Stalin and Mao would have no part of it as they established the USSR and PRC. The state defined the common culture which reached into every nook and cranny of the region governed. The cheek-by-jowl European cultures all know this, and fear their loss.

[George Rebane]

SteveF, you've told us before that you're an atheist. And I'm sure you find it a blessing, as we all do, to firmly believe in something.

The topic here does include religion since it is a prime attribute of the colliding cultures in Europe. And I agree that Christians fear Islam because they believe what Islam says and demonstrates about its tolerance for other religions in lands where it is dominant.

[Douglas Keachie]

"Amazing just amazing - not 1, not even a hint of a comment on Georges 25 questions - yet we are on religion - which had nothing to do with the act in the first place - read Georges updated link and try and comment, it is from Europe - BTW thats where this happened"

The word culture occurs over and over again in the 25 questions. Religion is a major subcomponent of culture. Islam and Muslim occur at least 7 times in the questions, directly referenced.

He killed the children of those he believed were bringing in people of a different culture, with a different religion, their religion being a prominent feature of his concerns. Somebody is not paying very close attention here.

Most of us, even Todd, do know where Europe is. One of the requirements in 8th grade Latin was to draw a map of the entire Roman Empire from memory.

[Todd Juvinall]

It seems America has been the great experiment for the melting pot of people's. It worked for a long time and it was a simple contract when you came here legally. Learn the language, don't be on the dole, work hard, realize the dream of bettering your life in a culture we thought you would join. Well, over the last fifty years, the left has undermined that and has balkanized America and put everyone at each others throats. I saw it in local government when we were required by higher governments to bend over and take it or else.

America's strength is our peoples desire to be Americans, not some hyphenated American. Hyphens are for keeping track and providing a mechanism for punishment. When liberals justify their divisiveness by evoking PC, we have to resist them at every turn. They had all the media and we have now broken their hegemonic power. They don't like it so we get to see them lie and cheat to win. We see liberals on this very thread practicing that set of techniques. This discussion went to religion because the liberal atheists have tried their darnedest to make some moral equivalency between the peaceful and loving Jesus and a religion of violence, Islam.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

I served six years in the Air Force Reserves between 1968 and 1974. I'm surprised someone with your convictions didn't volunteer.

[Todd Juvinall]

Paul. So you were with Bush in Alabama? I thought you denigrated him for being in the reserves. Hmmm.

Yeah, I guess I could have volunteered but I did not. I got married and had a kid right out of HS. You know, we hicks here in Nevada County. At least I didn't marry my cousin. BTW, did you see action in Vietnam?

[Douglas Keachie]

"This discussion went to religion because the liberal atheists have tried their darnedest to make some moral equivalency between the peaceful and loving Jesus and a religion of violence, Islam. "

Todd, please review the churchtower sniper sequences from "Saving Private Ryan."

I might add that I do not even think of that film as a movie. It's way too close to being some sort of deja vu flashfurtherback, based on the Europe I traveled in 1955 - 56. It was a stunningly emotional experience for me to "see" what had happened 10 to 15 years earlier.

[Steve Enos]

Georeg posted... "OK gentlemen, you've provided the unfortunate thread to the 'atheist detour' which I apparently missed. My apologies".

Apology accepted George.

Maybe next time, before you post a personally directed claim like "you look as if you don't know what's going on in this comment stream" you will read the comment thread in question.

Now back to the topic at hand.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

Glad my reference to the 25 comment outburst about atheist got you to go read them to prove me wrong - and even acknowledge the topic and describe the reason he actually did it - which I brought up yesterday

Yes as george is trying to point out - it appears to be all about culture - he wants Norway to be Norway not a western sunburb of the mid-east

[Douglas Keachie]

"I guess I could have volunteered but I did not. I got married and had a kid right out of HS."

As far as I know, many folks get married and have kids right out of HS, and still sign up. Of course it would have been a deferment qualifier back then...

[Steve Enos]

Dixon posts... "it appears to be all about culture - he wants Norway to be Norway not a western sunburb of the mid-east".

As I recall from reading a lot about American history the Native American’s, the Indigenous people that lived all across the USA when the European’s first arrived and then wiped them and their culture out had a similar position.

The Native American’s wanted America to be America, not a western suburb of Europe.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

You are very correct and I almost brought that up as well. So you also get the point that George is trying make and apparently agree

[Todd Juvinall]

Dixon, nice trap.

Keachie, I never had a deferment, I was 1A. So did you serve in the military?

[JimS]

Briefed by the indigenous scouts the soldiers closed
There are many streamside camps
Half of the ponies are out
It will be an easy take

[Steve Enos]

How nice tha Todd attacks and insults Paul Emery for his six years of service to our Country:

"Todd, I served six years in the Air Force Reserves between 1968 and 1974. I'm surprised someone with your convictions didn't volunteer".
Posted by: Paul Emery | 27 July 2011 at 02:18 PM

"Paul, So you were with Bush in Alabama? I thought you denigrated him for being in the reserves. Hmmm. Yeah, I guess I could have volunteered but I did not. I got married and had a kid right out of HS. You know, we hicks here in Nevada County. At least I didn't marry my cousin. BTW, did you see action in Vietnam?"
Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2011 at 02:25 PM

George, you got a real gem in Todd here!

[bill tozer]

My, religion is a touchy subject for some, and Islam appears more touchy and taboo to even discuss. What is Juan Williams new book called?...oh yeah, Muzzled. Remember years ago I was watching Book Review on C-SPAN when the author said that 30% of the Soviet Union was Islamic, mostly all that 30% in its southern east. Does Georgia ring a bell? Opps, can't talk about it. Why can't we have a discussion on how the Muslim culture fails to inseminate into Western European culture or the obviously clash when it comes to women's rights, democracy, the value of the individual, etc. Heck, even Tony Blair is yakking about it in reasoned words and France has banned the berka. Yeah, I spelled berka wrong, proof I must be a racist. I have known God-haters throughout my life. Mostly good folks until the "G" word comes up. Like fingernails on the chalkboard to them. Throws em into a tizzy. They love to reach into their playbook and bring up the Crusades or the treatment of the Native Americas as proof certain that Christianity is bad. Never fails. Ok, the Crusades lasted how many decades and about 200,000 people were killed, give or take. That was bad. The atheists like Stalin murdered in cold blood about 9 million souls. Atheist Chairman Mao killed about 20 million folks, none for religious reasons. The Killing Fields in Cambodia? Add together the minor dictators like the cannibal Amin in Ethiopia along with countless atheists throughout history and the Crusades begin to look like a grade school pushing match on the playground. OK, I get it. Muslims are good, Christians are bad. At least you intelligent bloggers are leaving the Jews alone......until some Muslim starts firing missiles on Israeli school children or some wacko blows up a senior citizens hang out in Jerusalem. Then we must show extreme restraint cause Muslim equals good, Jews Christians, Western Civilization equals bad, very bad.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

I had a problem because Bush bailed early from the National Guard. He probably had connections. No I didn't see action in Viet Nam. There were four units of our type on the West Coast. Two were activated and did serve over there. My unit was never called to active duty.

By the way, supporting the illegal war in Iraq is not supporting our troops.

[Todd Juvinall]

Bill, right on the mark.

SteveE, did you serve in the military?

[Todd Juvinall]

Paul, my comment was tongue in cheek and I appreciate you answering it anyway. I actually respect your service to the country.

[George Rebane]

Ahh, to mingle among angels.

Not sure how the fate of American Indians at the hands of Europeans and Americans should enter our discussion. But they were overwhelmed by cultures superior to them in about every dimension that is important for survival. Is someone here attempting to draw an analogue to Europeans in the face of their Islamic onslaught? How should the caucasian conquest of the Americas inform us on what is happening today?

[Todd Juvinall]

George I like your history lesson on the Mongols and their conquests and the mix they created through overwhelming force on Europe and Russia. That ay ne a good comparison.

[Dixon Cruickshank]

I can see the point - it in fact was a culture war kinda - although we can say we are the superior culture we are also at the same time being disarmed by the left. They use terror and bombs, we use pleading rhetoric and welfare to appease

Hey SteveE agreed with you on that culture part using it, and hasn't been heard from since - thats worth something.

[Steve Enos]

Todd asked me:

"SteveE, did you serve in the military?"
Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2011 at 04:29 PM

Todd... no. Many of my family members have/did. I was too young for the draft and Viet Nam. Missed that by a couple of years.

But I have severed in a number of other ways where my life and the lives of others I served with were in harms way in service to others.

I worked as a wildland and structure firefighter for over a dozen years and I lost friends and coworkers in that period. My Engine Capt. was over run by a reburn on a Humboldt Co. fire and spend many months in the Chico Burn Center as a result. I started my firefighting career working with Tony Clairbut, Tony is now Chief of the GVFD... it's a small world.

As a firefighter I did a number of technical cliff rescues, saved homes, did an endless number of medical emergency runs, rescued a few folks from burning buildings and on two occasions directly saved a human life.

I served my community as a Deputy Sheriff and as a Federal Drug Enforcement officer. That involved putting my life and personal safety at risk for the greater good time and time again. I have been shot at, stabbed at, attacked, have dealt with explosives at MJ grows and meth labs, but the most dangerous seemed to be dealing with domestic disputes.

When the twin towers were attacked on 9/11 it was the firefighters and law enforcement officers (and some other brave folks) that ran into the twin towers as others ran out. Firefighters and law enforcement go towards the danger while others flee, that's the job and the commitment we have.

I have and always will have a strong commitment and the deepest respect for my fellow firefighter brothers and fellow law enforcement officers for their selfless service. Far too many have given their lives while trying to protect others.

So while I didn't serve in the military I did serve the greater community good as a firefighter and law enforcement officer, protecting lives and property and putting my life on the line to do so.

In addition both you and I have been elected to public office. That's a form of community service, not on the same level as serving in the military or law enforcement but we both took that step out of our shared commitment to serve the community. So we at least have that in common.

[Brad Croul]

"1. The right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland," - This was not US policy regarding Native Americans for the last two centuries.

"2. The right of a culture to spread trans-nationally through (assimilating, insular) settlements," - This was OK as a national policy regarding Native Americans by the soon-to-be dominant Western European culture with its (strange to the Indians) religions, and conquest of other cultures during our Empire Building phase (Pacific Islanders, for example), but I do not sense that this idea works both ways for most Americans who are content with the way things worked out over the last 200 years (and Norwegians like Breivik) when it comes to large scale immigration by people who then become militant about the their preexisting cultural identity in the host country.

I did not notice any talking points regarding the economic impact of immigration on jobs and social services but increased competition for jobs and social services is often cited as a cause of anti-immigration dissent.

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen, may I ask you to move all 'mine is bigger than yours' conversations to private emails. I think the rest of us have seen enough.

[George Rebane]

BradC, thank you. I believe you are correct in your points 1 and 2. That said, how do we assess the rights of the Indians in their feeble (but heroic?) attempts to maintain their homelands and cultures against the encroaching white man?

Re the economic impact of immigration - that could be expanded under #19 and could also form its own orthogonal item. I have not seen any concerns about immigrants to Europe (especially Muslims) taking away European jobs. Europe is a contracting demographic and needs to either increase worker count and/or worker productivity. The complaint about Muslims in wealthy countries like Germany and Norway is that so many of them go onto the public dole as they settle into their insular enclaves.

[Steve Enos]

I'm more than happy to stay on topic George. I was responding to Todd's off topic question.

"Someone" here is the king of off topic attack posts that send the discussion off track.

[bill tozer]

OK, I will take a stab at #8, Norway's immigration policy. Don't have a clue. I do believe that each sovereign nation has the right to secure its own borders and establish immigration policy as it sees fit...unless it comes to the USA, which the UN thinks our generous policy is wrong. But, I digress per normal. Norway, as all Western European nations, has a fairly open door policy. Now, new cultures do present some problems. Remember the Italian gunboats turning away thousands of Albanians a few years back? France has enclaves of Muslim "ghettos" where even the French police dare not venture into, less riots and burning cars result. After Vietnam, my brother tried to emigrant to New Zealand to raise his family in peace. Very hard to get into. Had to be white and had to have a skill on their needed labor list. So, he became a medical technologist and a lab chemist and still could not get in. Just because somebody wants to emigrant to a country does do mean they can. So, Europe is having a clash of cultures with its Muslim immigrants. Sure, there are always going to be the Timothy McVays, the Arizona shooter, the military base shooter shouting "God is great" as he murdered US soldiers, and the wacko in Norway. My favorite city in the Western Hemisphere is Vancouver, BC. 30% Asian and your are more likely to hear Mandarin than French. Most domestic workers are from Sri Lanka, more Sushi bars on the corners than Starbucks, filled with Hindus, Iranians, and polite folks from everywhere....and they all speak English. Even people speaking in their native tongues will stop and reply in English when asked for directions. The culture of this vibrant city has molded into one, despite its huge diversity. Why? Don't know, but they seem to have sidestepped the problems old Europe is currently facing.

[George Rebane]

Thank you BillT. Wikipedia has a good summary of immigration in Norway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway

Your report of Vancouver is intriguing; a city that I had forgotten until you brought it up. I have similar memories (Victoria included) and would like for us to 'buy' some of it if they're able to can it. It definitely is worth more study on how they do it up there.

However, cities like Vancouver and Victoria are not places where distinct cultures survive. They, like New York and Hong Kong, are places where cultures come to meld into new almalgams, some quite distinct in their own right.

[Todd Juvinall]

In my humble view I think the world is getting reshaped into smaller particles. Over the world's history peoples and conquerors have tried to reign as many people and as much land as they could grab, creating large empires. Since the demise of the communist USSR, we have seen countries breaking off there and in Europe. Why is that? Because "birds of a feather flock together". It is natural for this to be. Humans want to be around familiar people like them. America is really the first country that tried to let everyone in only asking them to become Americans. The Romans let people become Romans and many Roman parts stayed in those conquered people's lives, but as we see now, Europe and North Africa and the Middle East still balkanized. France was filled with Frenchmen, Azerbaijan by Azerbaijanies Anyway, Norway and other countries that allow unfettered immigration without the assimilation into the base culture will eventually fall apart. In the USA and Canada and Mexico, the natives were overrun and the continent peopled by others. It was accomplished, rightly or wrongly by force and that is the history of the planet. I don't think that will change.

[George Rebane]

"In my humble view I think the world is getting reshaped into smaller particles." That is what my readings tell me Todd. Sociologists are now publishing "ideal size" of countries and communities - a notion previously seldom heard. These come in at 20K to 50K for built up communities, and countries of the order of 5 million. (Norway is about 5 million.)

[Michael Anderson]

And thus we get to "The Great Divide." Well done, everyone.

[Todd Juvinall]

Just look at the stats of our union. The most populous states seem to be the most screwed up. The least, less so. California has people from every country on the planet and they all seem to be living in China Town, Little Saigon, Koreatown and Russians in Citrus Heights. We went through terrible violence and self destruction trying to desegregate our country, even busing kids across towns and cities to force people to mix and what happened? Billions wasted becasue the people still figured a way to stay with their like. This is the force that will make smaller entities and America may face this someday if the PC police are in charge. I have always marveled at our country as one that welcomed people, legally of course, but the government force of trying to make people be the same will never work. People have to have the freedom to decide that.

[Michael Anderson]

Todd, what's your opinion on lunch counters?

[Larry Wirth]

Jeez, George, someone forget to learn 'ya not to poke animals in their cages with sticks?

Unlike most, I had a considerable education in Islaic history, art, literature and culture. Loved the art and architecture, literature was missling. The culture and religion were abhorrent and don't bother discussing the latter if you've not read the Koran.

Before some clown asks, I served in the US Army, 1965-71 and believe it one of the most important periods of my life. I went in a liberal and came out a conservative. Would that all Americans could have the same experience.

[Todd Juvinall]

What are your opinions on lunch counters Michaela?

[Michael Anderson]

Well Todd, I am generally in favor of them. They provide tasty food to millions, most of the stools are fairly comfy, and the gals behind the counter are quite garrulous.

But I asked you first, so your punt is a tad lame.

No matter. Let's proceed.

Here's a list, in a random and uncertain order, of my opinions on lunch counters:

1. There are many good ones in Nevada County. My favorite is Humpty Dumpty, better known as "The Dump" or "The Dumpster."

2. Even though lunch counters are owned by private business persons, those owners have to follow various rules and regulations. For example, the county Health Dept. needs to be able to inspect the cooking area to make sure things are A-OK.

3. I wish lunch counters were more liberal in their substitution rules, i.e. in the breakfast special I'd sure like to have tomato slices instead of toast at no additional charge. But I recognize that I am free to take my business to another lunch counter that might be able to accommodate my needs, based upon the free market.

4. I am glad that due to constitutional rulings, private business people are compelled in our civilized society to offer tasty food to all persons, regardless of their race, creed, color, or sexual orientation.

5. I wish all lunch counters in Nevada County paid payroll taxes for their employees instead of paying them under the table. This is a rampant abuse in this county and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

I could add more, but I'll start with this short list.

Your turn Todd...

[Douglas Keachie]

@Todd, what part of me being ranked I-Y, almost a 4F, did you not understand?

You may have been self nominated as a potential 1-A, but as your number was so high, I would doubt you were ever called, even for a physical, so how would you even know?

No, I never served in the military, as my poor hearing disqualified me at the starting gate. My dad and uncle were both captains in the Army, and a distant relation got a distinguished service cross in WWI. My cousin, a cryptography expert, with a top secret security clearance, disappeared one day while out sailing on the Black Sea, during the 1970's. The boat was found empty, the suspicions were that a Rooski sub got him.