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30 August 2011


Todd Juvinall

With the mosque at ground zero back and not a concern for Americans who think it is wrong, we get to see the real mental state of these folks (Bloomberg too, what a nut). Yes, there are people who are certainly racists, and Islamophobes, but other than a deaf, dumb and blind person, if we don't fear the harbingers of death we are fools. When I saw the Palestinians dancing in the streets celebrating the Twin Towers being destroyed and the dancing in Tripoli when the Lockerbie bomber/murderer deplaned, that simply reinforced things for me. The left tries to impose guilt on us who have a genuine fear of the assassins. It isn't working now because people see the results of the fallacy of the religion of "peace" every day in the press and the news shows. I don't care anymore if a liberal calls me names (they do it anyway) because I have fear and concerns about the Muslim's and the future for my family. The liberal will be the first people stood up against the walls just as the SS did to dissenters in Germany and the KGB did in Russia. The evil of murder and those that practice it must be confronted and we cannot let the PC crowd have their way any longer.


I agree with your accurately stated views. If Americans ignore all the blatant signals that are frequently being sent, it will do so at its peril. Hindsight is one thing, but turning a blind eye is unforgivable. Especially when so much is at stake. Must we live in a world of fear? Perpetrated by those who care not for their future, but who give up their lives for the chance to harm and destroy others.

Russ Steele

I am having a hard time getting my western mind around the idea that a young woman with children could do what she did. Mothers around the world are willing die to save their children, but to die for Islam in a terror attack on the very doctors and nurses that showed her compassion and treat her wounds is unthinkable. Yet, that was the plan. Now every time I see a muslim woman in a black burka, with a bulging tummy, I will run the other way.

In the Sudan they are recruiting muslim women to have explosive surgically planted in their beasts, so they can get past the screeners and then blow themselves up on aircraft.

If we continue to ignore the signals, we will continue to live in fear. In fear of women in bulging black robes, in fear of muslim women on the same airplane, in fear for our children, our grandchildren and their children, if we do not address this threat to our very existence. I support your concerns, to remain silent is to capitulate.

Paul Emery


The first link you provide goes to some Toronto newspaper that has nothing to do with this story. Check it out

Paul Emery

What I meant to say is do you have a link with more information about the story you cite? You Tube doesn't work here for some reason.

RL Crabb

A truly horrific video, and sadly only one among many others available on the internet. Still, I'm not ready to indict the entire population of Islam for the acts of a few, and it is a few.

My question now, as it has been before in these conversations, is what exactly is your solution, George? Deportation by religion? Concentration camps? Genocide? I'm all ears...

George Rebane

Israeli video also at -

The "some" Toronto newspaper The Toronto Sun, it is its leading print medium. The link takes you directly to the Menzies report.

Both links work.

Paul Emery

First of all the Menzies report is a commentary not a news piece. I'm sure you can recognize the difference.

I don't get You Tube so that link is useless to me.

Crabb asks the essential question of you. Believing as you, do what do you propose as a solution?

George Rebane

"... Dear reader, I don’t claim to have a solution, but only the considered viewpoint that if we do continue hiding the truth from ourselves, as also witnessed by the examples I give above, we will not save western civilization as we know it. ..."

Wiser heads than mine should start working on a solution - right now no one is. The longer we put off addressing this problem as a western nation (or civilization), the more limited become the obvious options.

Paul Emery

In your opinion what are the "obvious options" if this problem is not addressed?

George Rebane

PaulE, I would much rather learn of what my readers consider such obvious options to be before weighing in with my views. I have posted my piece - it stands and invites discussion from those who seriously share or oppose my concerns. And I do understand if such invitation is declined.


Touche, Paul.

There is no 'obvious option', the world is not a simple place, we cannot condemn 1.3 billion people for the actions of a relative few ideologues bent on murder, and to do so is to whip up fear, and deny individual responsibility, knowing the consequences of fear are often the very actions described above as a colorful part of George's past.

How can one simultaneously condemn the actions of a minority few whipping up fear against a perceived threat, then engage in the very same thing in the same breathe?

Paul Emery

Since I don't agree with the premise of this post obviously I have no ideas for a solution. What I do know is that since 9-11 nearly 300,000 Americans have died from firearms. If preservation of life is a priority then addressing this problem effectively seems to be a better cause for concern. This is from the Violence Policy Center


"Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries."

Todd Juvinall

Yep those suicides by firearms are the firearms fault. The rope is the nooses fault. The stabbing the knives fault. Yep, right.

Douglas Keachie

One of the things not discussed here is why wouldn't she have simply told the Israeli's what had been placed on her?

One, she had probably also been told there was no way it could be removed without triggering it, and this was probably true. In addition to trip lines it was probably also set up for radio detonation and with a max life timer, so that if she didn't make it to the hospital, it would most like go off wherever she was.

She may have spared the lives of Israeli bomb techs by exploding it herself, and also, saved the lives of her children, who would have been caught up in the blast, if she made the hospital. She may have deliberately sacrificed her own life to save her children. In which case she was far far more courageous than most of the posters here.

Two, there may have been threats of reprisal against eher husband, parents, friends, etc., if she did not go through with it. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

Three, when are some of you going to get it straight?

there is no such things as:

all blacks blah blah blah
all Muslims blah blah blah
all Nevada County contractors blah blah blah
all systems engineers blah blah blah
all lefties blah blah blah

and so on.

Paul Emery

Your right Todd. However, addressing the cause of suicide obviously needs to be part of a remedy.

Ben Emery

Do you put any responsibility on western culture for the plight of people oppressed by puppet dictators or those who impose immoral policies? Prior to our endless illegal war on terror(an emotion) a vast majority of madrassas(promoters of Wahhabism) were in Saudi Arabia or funded by the power brokers of the nation. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/madrassas.html

Tell me when does the war on terror end? Who surrenders? What do the enemies look like? What flag to they fight under? Does this need to be a genocidal offensive or will the people of the nations that are being occupied/ bombed just forget about their loved ones being killed and the country being destroyed?

To condemn an entire faith for the actions of very small minority is throwing fuel on the fire. How many innocent civilians have to die before you can admit invading nations that had nothing to do with 9/11 was a bad idea? Every time an innocent civilian is killed by an NATO backed bomb it creates 10 generational enemies.

Todd Juvinall

I have had distant relatives die by their own hand and it is usually those that feel there is nothing left for them on the planet. The device they use was your point. My point is what is in their mind.



There were 401,601 auto deaths since 9-11, so what is your point. You seen to trying to change the subject under discussion.

Since there were more deaths from cars than guns, lets ban cars. Now back to the issue.

Ben Emery

Possibly if they had somebody promising them that their families would be taken care of if they would join a religious group they might have taken the offer. Over the next few months and years they would have been brainwashed to hate a specific segment of the global population and agree to become a terrorist to fulfill their misguided delusional teachings.

Wahhabism is a cult that promotes criminal immoral behavior in the guise of being gods will. This is exactly why the separation of church and state is so important, so we don't oppress people that don't subscribe to those in power specific brand of faith and enter into holy wars domestically or internationally.

Paul Emery

I was expanding the discussion to include greater threats to human health and welfare. Yes, cars are the main cause of traumatic death. I didn't advocate banning guns or cars. I was putting into perspective the scope of what George considers to be a serious problem by comparing the Islamic threat with domestic realities. I feel more threatened by Meth addicts with guns or knives or bare hands than people of Islamic faith.

RL Crabb

I saw John Bolton on Fox earlier, and while he joins the chorus of Obama bashers, he also noted that many muslims are fed up with the violence that is foisted on them by their own. It remains to be seen how this factors into the fledgling democracy movement spreading across the mideast. Could be many of them are more interested in feeding their families than joining a holy war.

D. King

Ben said:

"Every time an innocent civilian is killed by an NATO backed bomb it creates 10 generational enemies."

Where did that come from?

Ben Emery

It came from me. For those of us who have been opposing illegal military actions from both (D) and (R) administrations it is a number we have heard for years. It was also said by General McChrystal in the Rolling Stone Article "The Runaway General" on page four.

Despite the tragedies and miscues, McChrystal has issued some of the strictest directives to avoid civilian casualties that the U.S. military has ever encountered in a war zone. It's "insurgent math," as he calls it – for every innocent person you kill, you create 10 new enemies. He has ordered convoys to curtail their reckless driving, put restrictions on the use of air power and severely limited night raids. He regularly apologizes to Hamid Karzai when civilians are killed, and berates commanders responsible for civilian deaths. "For a while," says one U.S. official, "the most dangerous place to be in Afghanistan was in front of McChrystal after a 'civ cas' incident." "

Ben Emery

Then you put this on top of it and we are fueling and amplifying and already bad situation


"WASHINGTON - During his intensive initial round of media interviews as commander in Afghanistan in August 2010, Gen. David Petraeus released figures to the news media that claimed spectacular success for raids by Special Operations Forces: in a 90-day period from May through July, SOF units had captured 1,355 rank and file Taliban, killed another 1,031, and killed or captured 365 middle or high-ranking Taliban."

It goes on to say

"But it turns out that more than 80 percent of those called captured Taliban fighters were released within days of having been picked up, because they were found to have been innocent civilians, according to official U.S. military data.

Even more were later released from the main U.S. detention facility at Bagram airbase called the Detention Facility in Parwan after having their files reviewed by a panel of military officers."


D. King


My problem is with this term...I don't understand it.

"...creates 10 generational enemies."

This I understand.

"...for every innocent person you kill, you create 10 new enemies."

Douglas Keachie

I've followed the Traubmans for years, here's a sample:

Virtual Bridge Allows Strangers in Mideast to Seem Less Strange
The New York Times -- Saturday, 09 July 9 2011

YaLa Young Leaders -- https://www.facebook.com/yalaYL -- is a new Facebook site surprising and attracting Israelis and Palestinians and other Arabs.
They are talking about everything at once -- music, soccer, photography, and what their new future might look like.

“I joined immediately," said a young Palestinian, "because right now, without a peace process and with Israelis and Palestinians physically separated, it is really important for us to be interacting without barriers."
This enthusiasm is suggesting that the Facebook-driven revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt may have instructed and inspired coexistence efforts as well.

Called Facebook.com/yalaYL, the site, created by a former Israeli diplomat and unambiguous about its links to Israel,
Of 22,500 active users, 60 percent are Arabs — mostly Palestinians, followed by Egyptians, Jordanians, Tunisians, Moroccans, Lebanese and Saudis.

“All communication today is on the Internet — sex, war, business — why not peace?” asked Uri Savir, the president of the Peres Center for Peace and the founder of the new site.
Savir was Chief Negotiator of the Oslo Accords for Israel in the 1990s as well as director general of Israel's Foreign Ministry and a member of Knesset.
But Savir says he has never been more excited about a project and this place where the next generation of regional innovators can meet.

At a time when Arabs generally shun contact with Israelis, those on the site speak openly about their desire to learn more about one another.
“This is my first contact with Israelis,” said Lyth Sharif, an 18-year-old Palestinian student at Birzeit University in the West Bank, who comes from Dura, a town near Hebron.
“A friend of mine told me about it, and I think it’s cool."
Salah al-Ayan, a Palestinian Authority official and a friend of Savir, is helping with the site.
He says that the lack of interaction today between Israelis and Palestinians about ordinary things is alarming.
“Believe me, they don’t know each other at all,” he said in his Ramallah office.

Nimrod, an Israeli participant added:“But what is great is that the discussions are unmediated — people aged 15 to 30 talking among ourselves.
"We don’t talk about a two-state solution or a one-state solution but about being a young person in Israel or Palestine.
"Our experiences are obviously very different, but we share a frustration about greater powers restricting us.
"That is very mutual.”

Uri Savir's vision is clear.
“My goal is to have 100,000 people working on YaLa on joint projects that will lock our leaders into making peace.”

- - - - -
These and hundreds of other success stories are preserved at http://traubman.igc.org/messages.htm

D. King

O.T. a little.

Seen this?

'Gaddafi's daughter-in-law threw boiling water over my head after I refused to beat her child': Horrific burns of nanny abandoned in dictator's mansion



Larry Wirth

No problem, George. After two readings of the Koran (one translated by an Englishman the other by an Egyptian Muslim) and a handful of Muhammed bios, I have no problem with "deportation by religion." Better yet, don't let Muslims into the United States.

The rap about the Middle East is largely beside the point, George is talking about what we do here.

This is a hate-filled so-called religion that has no place in Western Civilization and, like a lot of other people, I'm not interested in dragging these cave apes into the 21st Century. L

Todd Juvinall

BenE is certainly one naive person. The facts are there are always a number of people within almost any religion who do their darnedest to get their way. In Christianity it is usually to get you to join a church and practice love and peace. In Islam it is to take over the planet and kill the infidels. Us. I like to remember with fondness the Polish people led by Lech who stood in front of the guns and the police and transformed their country, then the continent, fighting for freedom. It started small and with the help of Reagan and especially the Pope, the small group grew and eventually prevailed. Their actions brought down the commies and the USSR within a few short years. The Islamic believers are the opposite. They have a small (in percentage) of activists (terrorists) who wish to enslave the world. They are all taught from the same book and their little chillin are brainwashed into hating Jews and everyone else. Well, it is going to take some sparks which the terrorists keep trying to ignite but will someday take off and with a short period of time the planet will be embroiled. BenE and his ilk want to play nicey-nice with the head choppers. We don't. We know they will be coming to do their deeds because they have told us they will. I believe them, BenE doesn't.

Ben Emery

Scared little man. It must be tough to live in a world of fear all the time.

Todd Juvinall

No, being prepared is the point. I am not scared I am informed. Your naivete is breathtaking in a world of so much information. Besides, You liberals always go personal. Little man, sheesh!

Ben Emery

You gave me your reasoning for you hatred of an entire religion and I came to the conclusion from you reasoning that you are a terrified human being. There is nothing personal about it. You calling me naive is the same as me calling you a scared, sheesh.
I didn't realize love and peace came at the tip of a bomb, isn't that your solution to Islam.

Ben Emery

I will ask again

When does the war on terror end? Who surrenders? What do the enemies look like? What flag to they fight under? Does this need to be a genocidal offensive or will the people of the nations that are being occupied/ bombed just forget about their loved ones being killed and the country being destroyed?

Todd Juvinall

BenE you are delusional, it is no wonder you are relegated to an obscure political belief system and party. You are naive and simply in denial. The war on terror will continue as long as the terrorist want it to, Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Oh, i did read your fantasy about helping some fellow out by throwing punches. Now there is a brave dude. Yeah right.

Paul Emery

So according to some scribes here the Islam world will do to us what we already did to them, conquer and donate their homelands through military force and terror.

Ben Emery

That wasn't a fantasy but reality. Here is another one. Many of my friends are of color) and in High School a white boyfriend of girl came to fight someone (non friend person of color) on campus. As the boyfriend was about to finish the fight with one last punch to the slumping opponent my friends jumped him. I ended up fighting my friends and yanking them off of the guy. Was it because he was white? No. It was he was unfairly jumped. Doing the correct thing isn't always pretty, easy, or safe. You see Todd, there is a big difference in being for non violence and being a coward. A coward sees something wrong and is afraid to insert themselves into the situation, I am not a coward. I encourage you to watch this film about bravery.

Todd Juvinall

BenE, you have a fantasy we call the John Wayne syndrome. You are a story teller and I get that. Living your stories as if they happened is simply delusional. You don't need me to watch your bravery video, you need to watch it. I can take take care of myself as I have done all my life and though I am 61 I can defend righteousness just as the next guy. You have to realize we hear these stories from liberals all the time and when push comes to shove, the liberal runs and the conservatives stays and fights. Not many liberals in the military is there?

Paul Emery

What would you know about the military Todd? You never served.

Ben Emery

I don't subscribe that republicans are conservatives and democrats are liberals but I know you do so here is the military service records of our elected officials and political pundits. George sorry for its length but the point is lost unless the whole list is posted.
Here is the list
The dirty little truth Republicans dont want America to notice. Anybody here see the pattern? For all thier blustering patriotism and warmongering almost NONE of them actually served our nation in the US military. Perhaps that is why they are all to ready to send young men to die in foreign wars. They have no idea what that actually means. Compare Republican service record in he military to Democrat service and it becomes all to clear what kind of people make up the Republican party: blustering moral cowards and bigots. (John McCain being the only one with real honor and integrity which is why he is the black sheep of the party)


* Dick Cheney: did not serve. 5 draft deferments (last one was for marriage)

* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

* Tom Delay: did not serve.

* Roy Blunt: did not serve.

* Bill Frist: did not serve.

* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

* Rick Santorum: did not serve.

* Trent Lott: did not serve.

* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

* Jeb Bush: did not serve.

* Karl Rove: did not serve.

* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max
Cleland's patriotism.

* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

* Vin Weber: did not serve.

* Richard Perle: did not serve.

* Douglas Feith: did not serve.

* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

* Richard Shelby: did not serve.

* Jon Kyl: did not serve.

* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

* Christopher Cox: did not serve.

* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

* George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got
assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S.
Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty

* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role

making movies.

* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

* Phil Gramm: did not serve.

* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart
and Distinguished Flying Cross.

* John M. McHugh: did not serve.

* JC Watts: did not serve.

* Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued

in NFL for 8 years.

* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.

* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

* George Pataki: did not serve.

* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

* John Engler: did not serve.

* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.

* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Pundits &Preachers

* Sean Hannity: did not serve.

* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')

* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

* Michael Savage: did not serve.

* George Will: did not serve.

* Chris Matthews: did not serve.

* Paul Gigot: did not serve.

* Bill Bennett: did not serve.

* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

* John Wayne: did not serve.

* Bill Kristol: did not serve.

* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

* Ralph Reed: did not serve.

* Michael Medved: did not serve.

* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.

* Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot



* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army
journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V,
Purple Hearts.

* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star &Bronze Star,


* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.

* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven

campaign ribbons.

* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze

Stars, and Soldier's Medal.

* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star

and Legion of Merit.

* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze
Star with Combat V.

* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

* Chuck Robb: Vietnam

* Howell Heflin: Silver Star

* George McGovern: Silver Star &DFC during WWII.

* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but

received #311.

* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.

* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18


* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul

Paul Emery

Larry Wirth writes

"I have no problem with "deportation by religion." Better yet, don't let Muslims into the United States."

Here's a chance for the Tea Party and Librtarian types to chime in. Is Mr Wirth's solution Constitutional and why or why not?

D. King

Oh, peace and love, peace and love.

"A rising leader in the radical Islamic movement in Egypt that has become a major political player since the demise of Hosni Mubarak's regime says Christian churches may need to be blown up and Christians exterminated to allow the advance of Islamic law, or Shariah."


Reminds me of this tolerant and respectful act.


Paul Emery

D King

Any comments on the constitutionality of Wirth's solution?

Douglas Keachie

That's a priceless list, Ben, is it on facebook?

Mikey McD

I reserve the right to protect my person and property; I expect others to reserve such a right as well.

Education (anti-ignorance) would do wonders (pretending a problem does not exist only exacerbates the problem). Discrimination is a form of protection (I don't include Islamic regions in my possible vacation destinations or social circles because I have grown fond of keeping my head attached to the rest of my body).

Paul Emery

Mikey, from your Libertarian viewpoint is Mr Wirth's solution constitutional?

Larry Wirth writes

"I have no problem with "deportation by religion." Better yet, don't let Muslims into the United States."

George Rebane

'The Measure of Victory'

Paul Emery


The question I propose is quite simple. Do you believe deportation by religion is constitutional?

Douglas Keachie

I'll take a crack at it, Paul.

Negatory on that there proposition. No. Nein, Nyet.

D. King


During the first Gulf war I worked with a Saudi Chief Warrant Officer; we became good friends.
In fact, we are good friends to this day. We spent many hours having tea and shisha in the desert discussing these very topics. I may have a slightly different perspective than others, however, the Koran is clear on the subject.
We are allowed freedom of religion here, not so in the Kingdom. However I do not believe our constitution states we must allow people who hate us to immigrate here. Right?

The card I just sent my friend Saeid.


RL Crabb

Another complicating factor in Islam's attempt to restore the Caliphate is, who's going to lead it? The Sunni and Shiites hate each other as much as they hate Westerners and Jews. It could take another century before they can offer any kind of united front. A lot could happen in that time,

Ben Emery

I agree my head is best attached to my neck and shoulders. Stand with me and call out Saudi Arabia and their violation of human rights by ending our cozy business relationship. The same goes for China. Both of these business partners with US interests are at the top of human rights violation list.

Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances.

Ben Emery

Sorry I usually link the place where I get the copied information. It is at many places on the internet but here is one http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1275604/posts

Douglas Keachie

Here's a group actively targeting the USA for religious cleansing:


George Rebane

PaulE, even though the Constitution is silent on "deportation by religion", were I a Supreme, I would vote NO - that deporting someone ONLY on the basis of the religion they espouse is against the founding principles of America.

But every sovereign nation-state has an obligation to resist that status being removed forcibly, and even more so, to maintain what its citizens consider as a desirable social environment. In the past (e.g. during WW1 and WW2) the US has exercised these prerogatives by displacing, deporting, and even incarcerating those it considered to be a danger to its continued existence.

So now we come to the question you predictably left begging - what if the person's publicly espoused belief system requires them to support the destruction of America (along with its non-compliant citizens), and for them to fulfill this commission in a sub-rosa manner?

(Since you didn't ask specifically about Islam, any reasonable answer to this question should not presume that such a belief system is necessarily Islam; in short, keep it generic, and then see if and under what conditions might Islam or Lutheranism conform.)

George Rebane

DougK re your 1231am - the Joshua Project link you provide does not give a hint of their "targeting" any country "for religious cleansing". Is this another demonstration of one of those 'I know what they're really thinking.' powers which progressives profess and the rest of us are denied?

Todd Juvinall

A couple of thing for BenE and PaulE, the Blues Brothers I guess. Lists such as you placed here a easy to identify where the came from and the bent of the lister. In that case a liberal. PaulE asked me if I ever served and I told him no and of course, now he uses it to somehow declare me, as I guess he is declaring William Jefferson Clinton, unqualified to discuss anything about the military. Now I find that very funny. Paul said he served in the reserves during the Vietnam War yet never apparently placed himself in harms way or went overseas. Should we argue his right to discuss war or combatt? BenE, did you serve? If not, then Paul seems to be telling you to shut up as well.

Wasn't Neville Chamberlain a liberal? Yep. So I could give you all a list but that is too tiresome and meaningless.

Regarding should someone be deported for their religion. No, I could not support that because it would not be right.

Paul, if someone wanted to come here and become a citizen and was preaching a religion of hate and the desire to overthrow our country, would you let him in?

George Rebane

Gentlemen - please review the topic of my piece on Islamophobia. I have no intention of letting this comment stream become another dick measuring exercise, this time on service in the military.

Paul Emery

The whole conversation about military service came about after Todd's silly remark about liberals not serving in the military. It then was a fair question to ask whether as a conservative Todd had served. A script writer couldn't make things up that are that contradictory.

Letting that go, There are as many interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible. What qualifications do any of us have generalize and foster action plans based on such limited scholarship and understanding of such a complex topic? An outsider looking at Christianity could easily look with horror on the practice of communion as cannibal worship by symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. There are radical Zionists for example that believe that the Jews should occupy and control and the entire Arabian Peninsula and that they are directed by God to do so. Radical Islam will use that minority of the people of Israel as an excuse for radical action in their self defense. The radical Zionists have Old Testament scripture to justify their beliefs and actions. It's all the same thing.

Most people of any faith strive to live in peace and harmony and want just to raise their children and live their lives in a peaceful world.

Todd Juvinall

It is clear that a liberal cannot answer a question honestly from a conservative so any input from a liberal, on religion, especially a libertarian green liberal is simply ridiculous. But hope springs eternal and I will again ask Paul to answer this question and not in some snarky way.

Paul, if someone wanted to come here and become a citizen and was preaching a religion of hate and the desire to overthrow our country, would you let him in?

Dixon Cruickshank

Mr Wirth is pretty close - I don't to be a victum

I'm still not sure that all these posers and posters understand that if they leave their little nest there in Nevada Cty and travel - they want to kill you at the first opportunity - Paul - Ben- Doug all of you and us too

why invite them to dinner?

Todd Juvinall

They have no answer. Just hyperbole.

Paul Emery


You missed the point as to what I was saying. Most people of Islamic faith are peaceful in their intentions, lifestyle and interpretation of the Koran. Do we need a special grilling for all Islamic visitors or immigrants to ferret out the violent ones? If someone is truly preaching a religion of hate and the desire to overthrow our country we have the right to defend ourselves and not allow those persons in.

Todd, George and others how do you propose we make that determination or is anyone who is Muslim automatically rejected.

I have friends that lived in Islamic (Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Indonesia, Sudan) countries and they never felt their life threatened.

George Rebane

PaulE re 250pm - not that we can't interpret the (translated) Quran, we simply don't have to. All we must do is review the historical record, believe what they are saying now, observe their behavior in lands being settled, and update the body count (being careful not to double count the pieces). With all due respect, your counter arguments are of the exact nature that increases my fear factor, because it reminds me of the hordes of ideological brethren you have out there.

And in the final analysis, I am of an age, education, experience, and still possess enough mental acuity that I can pretty well determine on a reasonable basis what I should or not fear. Your more profitable tack with those sharing my views would be to address the conundrum directly. For example, 'Suck it up bubchik, Islam is not all that bad after we get used to it.' would be a much more useful response, giving at once a prescription and state of the prescriber. Lecturing me on my knowledge of Islam and understanding of world events is not productive.

Ben Emery

I have invited Muslims to dinner as well as Christians, Buddhist, Hindus, Atheists, and Agnostics. Is religion a topic at the table, no because we respect everybody's right to have their own faith in our house. I have never felt my life was in danger having this array of people in my home. I don't know where you grew up but I grew up in a very diverse part of the state and have had friends of many faiths, skin color, nationalities, and income status from around the world. Just last year I went to a Buddhist wedding in Asia and spent a month traveling around the country, as far as I know there wasn't any attempts on my life.

Mikey McD

Ben, I have been anti-war pro personal liberty since before it was cool.

Paul Emery


Are you willing to look Christianity with the same lens that you do Islam as far as it's historical record of conquest and domination?

Todd Juvinall

I dare say I don't know another religion of "peace" that teaches its little kids that Jews are pigs and Americans should be beheaded. Is there one Ben or Paul can show direct us to? What is amazing to me is the lack of critical thinking abot the historical record by the two Emerys. We actually can see it alive and well today. That 6th Century lifestyle was quite a doozy I guess. Also, I seem to recall that immigrants moving through Ellis Island had to be screened and many were sent back to their home country after a review of the entry criteria. George is my recollection on that close?

Paul Emery


I challenge you to visit the Salam Islamic Center in Sacramento to enhance your knowledge of the religion of Islam.


Todd Juvinall

Why is that important to you? Are you a Muslim?

Paul Emery

No. It should be important to you. I am trusting that you desire to be a man of knowledge and integrity and it might give you some new experiences that could temper your judgements.


Oh, and by the way TODD, Neville Chamberlain was a member of the British CONSERVATIVE PARTY, just like Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Jeez, read a little history dude!

George Rebane

PaulE - "Are you willing to look Christianity with the same lens ..." Absolutely. But let's not waste each other's time with the argument that since Christianity did something in the past, now it's time for Islam to do the same - or even worse, it's payback time. That doesn't cut it.

Todd Juvinall

I tossed that to the floor to see who would pick it up Steve. Thanks.


Sure Todd. You know real men know how to say, "I was mistaken".

Todd Juvinall

You are mistaken? Wow! You should not take yourself so seriously.

Ben Emery

Every religion teaches compassion, love, and treating all living things/ others the way you want to be treated. It is known as Ethic of Reciprocity or The Golden Rule.

"Every religion emphasizes human improvement, love, respect for others, sharing other people's suffering. On these lines every religion has more or less the same viewpoint and the same goal." The Dalai Lama

The Ethic of Reciprocity is older than we can know. In an early written expression, an Egyptian papyrus from the Late Period (c. 1080-332 BCE) records, “that which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another.” (10)

The Golden Rule was often expressed in ancient Greek philosophy. Sextus the Pythagorean said, “What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them.” (11)

Among the “People of the Book,” the descendants of Abraham, Judaism’s version is, “What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary.” (12)

In Islam’s teachings the Prophet Muhammad stated, “Not one of you truly believes until you wish for others what you wish for yourself.” (13)

Zoroastrianism, which the Hebrews encountered during the Babylonian exile, instructs “Do not do unto others whatever is injurious to yourself.” (14)

Among the Eastern faith traditions, Hinduism teaches: “This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you.” (15)

Sikhism, which grew out of Hinduism, teaches, “I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed I am a friend to all.” (16)

Buddhism, originally a practice rather than a religion, teaches, “Treat not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” (17)

Confucianism, a Chinese ethical tradition, says, “One word which sums up the basis of all good conduct: … loving kindness. Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself.” (18)

Taoism, also originating in China, teaches, “Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.” (19)

While it is implied in most faith traditions, some specifically state that this principle is extended to all creation, not just to human beings.

Unitarianism, which branched out of Christianity, stresses this universality by teaching, “We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.” (20)

And Native American spirituality teaches, “We are as much alive as we keep the earth alive.” (21) "Respect for all life is the foundation”—this is the Great Law of Peace.

Ben Emery

Right On.
We are finding out that we have more in common than one would think.

Brad Croul


This Islamophobia you comment on sounds a lot like a variant of “The Red Scare” of more than 50 years ago.

How do you identify an Islamist anyway? Do they all have olive complexions and dark
curly hair? Is everyone with an olive complexion and dark curly hair a suspect? How will you know whom you can trust?

If you are ever physically attacked it will probably be for economic, rather than religious or xenophobic, reasons in a neighborhood near you.

Israelis and Palestinians have, essentially, been at war with each other for decades. The terrorist, suicide bomber example you provide does not accurately describe a billion non-violent Muslims, likewise, math geniuses don’t all behave like Ted Kaczynski.

Larry Wirth

Interesting conversation, gents. I find nothing in the Constitution that would prevent our excluding anybody from admittance for any reason whatever, or no reason for that matter.

The deportation question is a bit more difficult. George touched on it at 12:49.

What's missing here is a recognition that Islam is not just a "religion." It is a comprehensive set of rules enjoined on its adherents to wage unremitting warfare on all non-believers. Can we deport ideologues for their beliefs? Absolutely.

Once again, instead of telling me I don't have the insight to analyze Islam, I suggest to all that haven't that they bone up on the subject. Read your damn Korans. And get some other background on the subject. This is not simply a "religion," it is a set of commands on the obligations of the "faithful."

The historical fact is that Islam has been at agressive war against both indifels and pagans since its founding. And, no, they're not the same things under Muslim belief.

George Rebane

BradC re 701pm - the Red Scare of 50 years ago was spot on (only the socialists of today refuse to wipe off the long-crusted egg on their faces), and so is the commission of Islam. BenE's 649pm is an excellent example of the pabulum that progressives put out in these discussions. Do a body count on the other religions.

We note that no one from the left wants to touch on taqqiya or the body count or the well-known Quran's principle of abrogation (q.v.) which essentially overrides over 71 or the Mecca suras with those penned in Medina after the Prophet's victory there from which Islam launched its world conquest program.

Congressman West summarizes it for us over the centuries (see video). We will not jawbone ourselves out the danger that a dynamic, resurgent, and purposeful Islam presents to the west. To me the Messrs Emery in perfect harmony sound like Neville Chamberlain getting off the airplane with his piece of paper in 1938.

Paul Emery


In the name of Christianity the Irish have been slaughtering each other in the streets for the last 40 years and that was between the Protestants and the Catholics both of which claimed to have God on their side as both sides bombed men woman and children without discretion. It took generations for things to change but it finally has because of the fatigue of war.

I know quite about this. I was in Ireland for eight months in 1980 and returned in 82 and 92. This war, and it was a war fueled by religious and historic division, continued because of the profits of war that were generated by both sides.

I bring this up to point out that religion does drive hatred and slaughter even in Christian cultures.

Also, the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia was largely payback for centuries of occupation by the Ottoman Empire. In this case it was the Muslims and the Orthodox Christians playing out the the latest chapter of a centuries old war for occupation. The events in 1995 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslims as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,000–30,000 Bosnian Muslims. That was pretty much a religious war between Christians vs Moslem's. I know of nothing in modern times to match that one except tribal wars in Africa which could have fueled religious fervor to up the octane of slaughter presided over by regional thugs. I don't know the role religion played in Africa but in some cases it could be Muslim vs Muslim.

Actually in comparison to these examples radical Islam's jihad against Christians is pretty insignificant if you eliminate wars of liberation in Iraq and Afghanistan where we are the invading and occupying armies.

I bring these things up to illustrate my view that the radical Islamic factions are by no means the only modern examples of religion fueling by slaughter and conquest.

George Rebane

PaulE - and what is your point regarding the main theme of my piece which is fear of an existential intent to dominate the world starting with western civilization? People have forever killed each other in the name of their god(s), please don't divert us with these recounts. What world domination plans did the Irish or the Serbs implement with their religious slaughters. Islam's assault has changed the very nature of how we now live (which only the fervent left denies) and continues daily to violate our liberties. Please do grasp the scope of this discussion.

Paul Emery


Wars are all local when it's your neighborhood being bombed by foreign invaders. How do you describe our need to have military bases in over 100 countries, our engagement in coups and assassinations and our funding and support of dictators and despots favorable to our needs other than an attempt of world domination and empire.

Our intervention in the affairs of sovereign nations for our own gain makes so called Islamic Jihad seem pathetic. I suggest you and other so called whatevertarians read carefully Ron Paul's Why We Fight for a much more articulate voicing of my position.


From "Why We Fight"

"Using force injudiciously, instead of spreading the worthy message of American freedom through peaceful means, antagonizes our enemies, alienates our allies, and threatens personal liberties here at home while burdening our economy."

Ben Emery

I had a big response but I am just going to cut to the chase and be done with it.

Here is what I am seeing from Rumination Regulars (RR) and yourself, it is a pretty basic analogy.

RR have a behavior/ personality trait that allows them to see the majority of the world as bad and a small few as good. To put it towards this conversation a majority of muslims are bad and want to kill westerners.

Where as I see the world as a majority of good and a small few as bad.

One is oligarchy/plutocracy (small few have the power) and the other is democracy (rule of the people or people power)

This pattern keeps on repeating itself.

Todd Juvinall

Paul, the Irish were fighting because 1/2 wanted to stay with Britain and the other half with Ireland. It was also split along religious lines.

BenE responds as he always does when he can't debate any longer. He gives us his last gasp and carries off his football. What a hoot. I would say he is more predictable in his ignorance than we on the right are since he fights tooth and nails to convince others he is all peace and love. Sorry BenE, you can't pigeon hole RR commenters who are not like you, we are much different and more in the real world.

Ben Emery

There is nothing more to say than what I just said. You believe in a small few running things and I believe in the people running things.

Your ignorance towards others shines brightly. I find if very tragic and sad that people who were handed so much seem so afraid of those who aren't as fortunate.

For you from an interview with the late great Utah Phillips

"You came into the world armed to the teeth. With an arsenal of weapons, weapons of privilege, economic privilege, sexual privilege, racial privilege."

"You want to be a pacifist, you're not just going to have to give up guns, knives, clubs, hard, angry words, you are going to have lay down the weapons of privilege and go into the world completely disarmed."


Steve Frisch

Must be great to still be living in the 13th century, under whatever 'God' one prefers.

Paul Emery


Actually the modern Irish situation started in the late 60's as a civil rights movement by the minority Catholics in the North who were segregated and forced into urban ghettos and denied basic opportunity much likes the blacks in our country. The Civil Rights movement became uncivil after the infamous Bloody Sunday slaughter by the British Army that radicalized the at that time non violent Civil Rights movement into a neo Marxist revolution using guerrilla war tactics against the much larger British-Protestant majority. The whole division was fueled by religious definitions that go back to the time of William the Orange in the late 1600's that stood for the Protestants as a definative victory over the Catholics. While I was there I saw parades of Orangemen in bizarre orange garb celebrating the defeat of the catholics in 1680 something carrying old flags and weird swords and bizarre golden hats.

Religious division was at the heart of the fervor that was fueled by massive Irish fund raising in this country to support the so called freedom of Ireland. The Catholics would parade to County Mayo in the Republic every summer to hike up Achill Mountain emulating the suffrage path of St Patrick around 800 AD. The path up the mountain would become stained with blood since the proper way to suffer was to climb the mountain barefoot, as did St Patrick. Both sides were completely nuts with religion much like the Islamic extremists we are talking about.

They'd finish their silly parades and mountain suffrage and go back to blowing each other up while the war profiteers racked in the dough and gave them all the guns and bombs they needed.

My take is that Islamic extremists are of the same fervor. They are fueled by the hatred of the West for invading their homeland and, ignited by religious fervor, launch themselves as human bombs in the name of Allah. Islamic people that you would see at the Center in Sacramento do not share the same fervor and are nice people raising their families and trying to get by. That's information you need to experience to have an informed opinion

Todd Juvinall

BenE says I believe in a small few running things which shows me his complete and utter ignorance of my positions and that of conservatives in general. How could BenE be so ignorant? Easy, because a liberals life is one of envy and guilt. When a person does not make it here in the USA they look for others to blame for their failure. BenE is a perfect example of why we have become a welfare state with entitlement mentality. He knows nothing but defeat and fruitless attempts to achieve his ultimate goal, dependence on him and his progressive policies. No BenE, I am exactly opposite from what you have stated you think I am which tells me you have no clue about the real world. You are the result of privilege, not I.

Brad Croul

GeorgeR, re 8:20pm, a phobia is an anxiety disorder characterized by a fear disproportionate to the actual threat. If Muslims, by definition, have indeed declared “open season” on infidels, we should see much more blood in the street than we actually are witnessing. These terrorist acts would also not be politically or nationally motivated. If your phobia was reality based, Muslims would be exterminating non-Muslims like the Clark Pest Control man fumigates for pests.

I don’t think Muslims terrorists are operating with “existential intent” in that they are not acting solely as individuals to give their life meaning by blowing people up and causing damage. Yes, relatively few Muslims are making a personal decision to strap a bomb on, but they are getting their talking points from aberrant “politician/ preachers” who use brainwashing and peer pressure to get their subjects to do their bidding and create havoc for political gain. Brainwashing, controlling, manipulative preachers are everywhere, in every religion. Warren Jeffs is an example of a high profile preacher/scum closer to home and not a Muslim. But for every scum preacher, there are millions of good, well intentioned preachers. That is why you have little to fear. You can feel safe from attack from the foreign-looking pregnant woman, or the gentlemen behind the counter at the gas station convenience store or motel.

RL Crabb

There are pieces of the truth in all of the above comments, which is why finding a cut and dried solution is so elusive. Somewhere in a trunk in my garage I have my grandfather's immigration papers. In them, there is a section where he had to state that he was not an anarchist, or member of any movement that would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. (I assume you have similar walking papers, George.) There wasn't anything about religion, as I recall. Likewise, it is true that there were traitors in the government in the fifties, but the scope of the witch hunt went much further in an attempt to ferret out anyone who had ever flirted with communism. Many good citizens did during the thirties, only to reject it. Dalton Trumbo comes to mind, and it was only through the efforts of his friends in Hollywood that he was able to continue working as one of the greatest screenwriters of that time under an alias. Also true that minority religions (and sects of Islam) are persecuted in Arab countries.

There are no easy answers, but I'll agree with George that it is a conversation worth having.

Douglas Keachie


The Christians are not targeting any one country, it's the whole damn planet they're after. They have a much better PR team than the Muslims, but the ultimate result is to be the same, World Domination, by means of yakking it up to every person on the planet, and then getting their buddy Jesus to come down and BBQ anyone who didn't submit. Given that our current birthrate is around 5 babies/second, 7/24/365, I doubt they'll ever reach their goal, but there are no restrictions on actions, could be violent, if denied the ability to reach the "unreached."

Also note the disclaimer to folks who might want to spend more energy fixing things instead of converting folks.

"We believe that Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly, in power and glory, to consummate his salvation and his judgment. This promise of his coming is a further spur to our evangelism, for we remember his words that the gospel must first be preached to all nations. We believe that the interim period between Christ's ascension and return is to be filled with the mission of the people of God, who have no liberty to stop before the end. We also remember his warning that false Christs and false prophets will arise as precursors of the final Antichrist. We therefore reject as a proud, self-confident dream the notion that people can ever build a utopia on earth. Our Christian confidence is that God will perfect his kingdom, and we look forward with eager anticipation to that day, and to the new heaven and earth in which righteousness will dwell and God will reign forever. Meanwhile, we rededicate ourselves to the service of Christ and of people in joyful submission to his authority over the whole of our lives.

(Mark 14:62; Heb. 9:28; Mark 13:10; Acts 1:8-11; Matt. 28:20; Mark 13:21-23; 1 John 2:18; 4:1-3; Luke 12:32; Rev. 21:1-5; II Pet. 3:13; Matt. 28:18)

Therefore, in the light of this our faith and our resolve, we enter into a solemn covenant with God and with each other, to pray, to plan and to work together for the evangelization of the whole world. We call upon others to join us. May God help us by his grace and for his glory to be faithful to this our covenant! Amen, Alleluia! "

In the meantime, if you don't become a docile follower of one of the few, select, genuine honest to God, self proclaimed, voices of Christ, or whatever the flavor of the week is for "fearless leader," you are shunned but good, and if the economy is bad, you could starve to death if you didn't recant, and neither the leaders nor their followers would give a damn.

George Rebane

BradC - while agreeing with the formal definition of 'phobia', my own intended use of it was only in the sense that Xphobia is a contraction of 'fear of X'. And that fear does not have to carry any of the clinical baggage of unreasonableness. Apologies if that semantic was not obvious from the rest of my piece and the many of my other articles on Islam that these pages record. Had there been another word for that simple notion, I would have used it. But I thank you for your concern.

With regard to the rest of your interpretation - which can be summarized as 'we have nothing to fear except fear itself' - I reject for all the reasons I have already given here and elsewhere. Islam is on the march according to their own teachings, daily actions, and contemporary declarations. This is recognized by most people in the west and most western leaders. You are simply a part of the non-Islamic world that continues to be the compliant consumer of taqqiya. And because your vote counts as much as mine, I include these essays and comment streams in RR. As Brother Crabb says, "... it is a conversation worth having."

(BTW, a cursory study of history shows that FDR's palliative was pure bullshit. We then had a massive government to fear which diminished liberties while growing itself and the depression it had created, much like it is doing again. Sec Treasury Morgenthau's 1939 words to Congress bear witness.)

Paul Emery

Yes indeed Douglas

There are some pretty grizzly "prophecies" in the bible that millions of Christians believe that could be interpreted as every bit as draconian as similar segments in the Koran. What happens to everyone not chosen by the guy in the sky during the Rapture for example. For those who believe in the literal interpretation of the bible the wrath of God is a pretty bad deal for those on the wrong side. Hell described as an eternity of living in a pit of snakes and fire is a clear tactic to scare non believers. Mormon and Pentecostal evangelists who have a commitment to evangelical service are sent all over the world spreading this message.

This is pretty mainstream stuff, that all Christians groups don't believe in which gets me to the point of my converse is that the Religion of Islam and the Koran has the same diversity of interpretation that Christians and the Bible express. That's why I disagree with the very premise of Georges opinion that the Islamic hoards are lining up for the final assault on all the non Muslim nations of the world as part of their hard wired Islamic mass Manchurian Candidate destined course of action. No. It's just not true pure and simple. We should take Ron Pauls advise and come home and mind our own business.

Dixon Cruickshank

My goodness talk about cherry picking Paul

I have friends that lived in Islamic (Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Indonesia, Sudan) countries and they never felt their life threatened.

3 of the 5 would be consider secular and none until very recently have any sharia law advocates that at least could stick their heads up. You are aware that Egypt had outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood for 30 yrs - maybe they need to gone over for a vacation now. This is the 21st century and things have changed a bit, so you continueing going back 800 to 1000 yrs to find something christians did is getting really lame and tired - just say'in

Todd Juvinall

Yeah PaulE and others, the Christians are trying to take over the world with, GASP, love and peace! Oh, the Islamic religion is too, except through violence and murder.

Paul Emery

Ask the Muslims in Bosnia about love and peace Christians.

Ben Emery

You have to look no further than the continent you live on to see example after example that contradicts your position. Look up the genealogy of many indigenous nations of what we call today the USA and you will find the word extinct next to their names.

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