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26 September 2011

Comments

Russ Steele

George,

We are planning on attending. See you there.

Russ

bill tozer

Should be fun. Paul seems to be a decent man and George as well. Hope it goes like this: On one side we have a person advocating more revenues (taxes) so we can keep things exactly the way they are. Probably with the usual need to fix potholes and care for the less fortunate in our society, with perhaps being all for clean air and drinking water sprinkled in. On the other side we have a person saying that keeping things the way they are has brought us to this crisis point. Revenues ain't the problem, spending is. Keep spending vs cutting spending. It probably won't go down exactly like that, but I hope George pulls out the law of Unintended Consequences. Lofty ideals, but how does work when the rubber meets the road? Maybe it will dissolve into who shot JR from the grassy knoll or did Al Gore really win the Nobel for inventing the internet. Ah, speculation is building and I am burstin' with childlike anticipation. I promise to be good. Already put away the over ripen tomatoes I had planned to bring. I will just sit there respectfully and maybe expel some gas now and then to express myself. Good luck to both men.

George Rebane

BillT - you are indeed a card and a man of good humor. If things get a bit too calm, we'll call on you to come on stage and "express" yourself. That should liven up the evening and bring it to a prompt conclusion ;-)

Ben Emery

George and Paul,
Goodluck and lets start the dialogue our country so desperately needs. A forum of detailed answers, not the three ring circus the corporate media puts on where they are trying to get sound bites to spin the candidates intentions. I might miss it due to, get ready for this RR, an ACLU workshop on knowing our legal/ constitutional rights and activism in Sacramento. It has been awhile since I have done one of these workshops and I might need it if I take a road trip to Occupy Wall St.

From a Libertarian leaning Green to a Green Libertarian be yourself and if I am not their in person I will be there in spirit.

RL Crabb

Expelling gas is pretty much what politics is all about. The problem comes when you get used to the smell. I'll be there, holding my breath.

Barry Pruett

Random people have been asking me if I was going. Should be a good turnout.

stevenfrisch

How could you possibly be appearing as private individuals? George is a member of the Tea Party Patriots and Paul is the news director at KVMR. If they are appearing, they must be appearing on behalf of those groups who in other capacities they represent. According to some here (TODD or RUSS) there is no differentiation between ones public, private and professional affiliations.

Now of course I understand how they could speak as individuals, because unlike Todd and I russ, I don't think one checks their individual right to free speech at the door.

Mikey McD

How to Save America (and the world)

What ‘policy’ changes could the USA embark upon which would pave the road to recovery, health and prosperity? Here are a few (in no particular order):

1-Drill Here, Drill Now: This move would add jobs, create tax revenue, crush our middle-east enemies, increase the value of the US Dollar and fund alternative energy research and development.

2-Revoke Employers Role as Tax Collector: Currently employers are responsible for withholding and paying income tax (SS, medicare etc) for employees. Making employees responsible for paying their taxes would make them less apathetic to government spending increases and debt increases.

3-Make Social Security and Medicare optional. Allow individuals the choice to participate in SS and Medicare. Allow self reliant Americans the choice to be beholden to the federal government.

4- End the Federal Reserve: Allow banks to set interest rates.

5-Return to a gold standard: even if only a small percentage of US dollars are backed by gold (or other precious metals) the value of our currency would strengthen. This would make printing money a much more difficult task (reining in an ever growing government). Most importantly this would also decrease inflation on Americans. Fractional gold standard of 5% makes sense to me. For every million printed it costs $50k in gold (33.33 oz @ $1,500/oz).

6- Regulate Banks: Any bank that wishes to be an FDIC insured bank would need to spin off riskier business units (i.e. hedge funds, speculation biz, etc). A sound banking system is foundational to capitalism, relieving banks of risk would do wonders to control certainty.

What ‘policy’ changes would you suggest to get the USA on the road to recovery, health and prosperity?

Dixon Cruickshank

Wasn't it Mr Frisch that went on the radio as a private individual and defended that it was separtate from SBC ????

Douglas Keachie

Smile for the cameras, everyone!

Steve Enos

Thanks George!

Todd Juvinall

See you there tonight George! I may bring my camera and get a picture of some of the folks.

stevenfrisch

Todd & Dixon, I guess you did not get the irony in my post. I was not busting George's chops, I was pointing out the double standard supported by the posters here.

Todd Juvinall

You are just too smart for us country bumpkins I guess.

Barry Pruett

Great tournout (about 120 people)...great conversation. Sorry that I could not stay l;onger, as we had to get the girls to bed. Thanks Paul and George! Green Libertarian...I will figure that one out eventually!

Russ Steele

If you were not at the Tea Party Patriot Forum tonight you missed out on a great opportunity to learn about some subjects often discussed, and often ignored, on the evening news. It was so popular that I think there will be others TPP Forum in the future. Plan to attend and become a citizen activist, regardless of your party or political affiliation, the Washington elites are counting on your ignorance. Do not let them win the game. You will learn something you did not know before about both sides of an issue.

We all thank George and Paul for a great evening of discussion.

Paul Emery

Barry

Pretty simple. Everyone has to take responsibility for maintaining a healthy earth. You can't have liberty without a sustainable environment. Either we do this within our culture or we have to rely on granting the government enforcement powers.

RL Crabb

Thank you, George and Paul, for an evening of stimulating dialogue. It proved that we as Americans can sit down and hash out differences without shouting and name-calling. I came out of it a little less cynical than when I went in. Let's hope there are more of these forums with a bigger audience.

Barry Pruett

Thanks Paul. I did not catch that before I left...and thank you for doing the forum! It was really cool!

Michael Anderson

I agree with RL, it was a good start. I also came away with some of my cynicism tempered. That being said, since Paul has a lot of libertarian beliefs, he and George ended up agreeing on more ideas and issues than disagreeing.

Perhaps next time around we can discuss things like abortion, religion in schools, gay marriage, and other third-rail topics. I realize that the Nevada County Tea Party Patriots isn't interested in discussing these kinds of social issues so maybe it's time for a TPP-like org. on the left to do the sponsoring.

The more of these the better IMHO.

Michael Anderson

Also George, regarding the subject of fiscal policy and debt as it was being discussed last night, you mentioned a recent article in Business Week magazine that provided a graph showing the unfunded liabilities in the US to be at $211 trillion dollars. I searched for it but came up empty. If you have a link that would be handy, thanks.

Todd Juvinall

I thought it went well last night and the libertarian part of both fellows came through loud and clear. The TPP does stay out of the social issues simply because they know the country will not be destroyed by the difference between the folks favoring homosexual rights or not. The country will dissolve because of money, or the lack of it. One needs to look at Japan and their 20 years of static life. They are a homogeneous society yet their monetary policies have wrecked their country. Perhaps MA should listen to the Republican debates for his questions about the social issue differences.

BTW, I thought Crabb was taller. LOL.

George Rebane

MichaelA - Here's the link to the online version of Peter Coy's 'It Gets Worse' article on debt and unfunded liabilities. The print version was in the 1-7 August issue of Bloomberg Businessweek.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/why-the-debt-crisis-is-even-worse-than-you-think-07272011.html?campaign_id=rss_search

Mikey McD

Michael Anderson, I STRONGLY believe that "abortion, religion in schools, gay marriage, and other third-rail topics" HAVE NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT. With mountainous debt, failing entitlement programs, UN-constitutional wars (plural), failed public education system... why would we want to WASTE time on IMPOSSIBLE third-rail topics which only serve to divide and ignore the crisis at hand?

Ben Emery

The unfunded liabilities is a red herring. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

It is the interest that kills the borrower not the principal.

When the Reagan administration nearly tripled the national debt that took 200 years to create they did something else that made things much worse. This forced America to borrow from other nations to manage our debt. We are still paying interest on the debt accumulated during the 1980's. The other is during the Reagan administration we normalized trade deficits allowing the US dollar to flow out of the US depleting our own economy.

Made in America is the only way we will return to a stable middle class economy. We need to bring the productivity/ wages back into correlation with each other. Until we do this we will continue to be a nation relying on debt to function or dysfunction.

Paul Emery

George

This is from the article you linked.
Comments?

"If America’s long-term budget problems were small, they could be fixed entirely by the Republicans’ preferred method, which is spending cuts, or entirely by the Democrats’ favored fix, tax increases. The challenge is not small, however. That’s why nearly every bipartisan group that’s looked at the problem—including the Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin commissions—has concluded that some mix of the two will be required. The precise mixture is a political matter, but one would have to place an exceptionally high priority on the well-being of upper-income taxpayers to conclude that none of the adjustment burden should fall on them."

George Rebane

PaulE - I am very much against band-aid fixes to our existing tax code. None of them will address the systemic problem that the code has become a prime detriment to productivity and growth, which is what must be promoted above all if the government is to receive any other sustainable revenues. The later we fix our tax code the deeper we will fall and the harder it will be. No band-aids on band-aids please.

Re again starting to make all the things in-country that we need - we must remember that 1) foreign trade is a zero-sum game, 2) things should be made by those who make them best for least, and 3) if goods don't cross borders, armies will.

BTW, several international studies of the mix of spending cuts to tax increases have shown that the proper mix is about 80/20 to most rapidly pull an economy out of doldrums, increase growth, and then government revenues. America's socialists thinks at best this should be reversed, as shown by their proposals - they really want 0/100. And Obama thinks he is forsaking his base and making a big sacrifice (compromise?!) when he even thinks about a 40/60 approach.

George Rebane

Last night PaulE and I also discussed national healthcare, and made clear our different stances on the issue. The matter is nowhere near settled, in fact, the real national debate on it is just starting with several cases proceeding through the courts. A reader sent me a link to a relevant article on the healthcare coverage.
http://blog.american.com/2011/09/how-private-health-insurance-slashed-the-uninsured-rate-for-americans-health-fact-of-the-week/

Ben Emery

George,
"if goods don't cross borders armies will" is a bogus claim. It is the resources to produce the goods that armies will cross the borders to obtain. Our strategic interventions and invasions of nations have zero to do with a goods and everything to do with a resource that is essential to continue the status quo.

George Rebane

BenE - It's even broader than that, and still best captured by the long experienced maxim that uses 'goods'. Not sure I understand your "essential to continue the status quo", because nation-risking wars do anything but maintain the status quo. In any event, from your mouth to God's ear.

Michael Anderson

Todd wrote: "I STRONGLY believe that 'abortion, religion in schools, gay marriage, and other third-rail topics' HAVE NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT."

Todd, are you claiming that voters in America will not be analyzing candidates' views on these subjects in order to make their ballot decisions?

Whoever is president in 2013 will most likely be making at least one SCOTUS appointee during his or her term, and these "third rail" subjects are intricately tied to important issues that are viewed and decided through the prism of the 10th and 14th Amendments.

The TPP doesn't have to talk about them if they don't want to, but in the big picture they can't be avoided.

Todd Juvinall

That was Mikey

Paul Emery

It was actually Mikey that you quoted. Believing those issues have no place in government is indeed an issue itself.

Michael Anderson

Whoops, sorry about that. I got momentary avatar blindness. Never mind Todd.

Mikey, I'd be pleased to read your answer to the question I posed to Todd if you so choose. Thanks.

Dixon Cruickshank

Bigger fish to fry Mr Anderson - we waste way too time bothering about small special interest groups in this country

Ben Emery

George,
To believe that we are talking about national boundaries when it comes to the status quo would be very naive. By destabilizing the main oil producing region benefited the status quo in a very short term fashion but average people were hurt economically, environmentally, and with their lives. Oil companies have never seen such profits, speculators got the boom as well, the republican party furthered the fear based message, ran up the national debt, stripped our civil liberties, and retained the presidency and 6 out of the 8 years of the W administrations. This is how the banks are making their move on nations with a financial coups, one world government and currency.

I will post this very simple 2 minute explanation that is acted out with a animated story. This is the status quo that isn't loyal or dependent on any one nation. I have posted this before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Fzm1hEiDQ&feature=related


Check out the whole series of interviews
Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8

Ben Emery

Let me add one more thing before battery goes dead.

"republican party furthered the fear based message, ran up the national debt, stripped our civil liberties, and retained the presidency and 6 out of the 8 years of the W administrations."

Should have added into it. Changing the entire political dialogue and policies. The democratic party failed to stand up to the fear mongering and has followed just as much as the repubilcan party due to the overwhelming dependency on these industries and the big kahuna's within the industries funding of the two parties.

Mikey McD

Ben, tell Greece (or GM) that unfunded liabilities = red herring! LOL.

George Rebane

BenE - quite a story you have there. Is there a hint of conspiracy among the corporations here, or are they just fortuitously acting in concert? Do they have an endgame plan for after they have beggared their customers around the world - e.g. gated communities for the execs, and mass poverty and starvation elsewhere? How does this end if left unchecked?

Mikey McD

I am contending that WE should not let the government control what happens in our bedrooms, dr. offices, or taught in private schools. To spend time discussing such 'third rail issues' is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. The crisis at hand is not Roe v Wade it's government spending. Period. The machine wants to divide us on abortion and gay rights to take the heat off of the crisis at hand. There is a reason that 'third rail issues' are not making headlines in Greece (and other EU countries)...

"are you claiming that voters in America will not be analyzing candidates' views on these subjects in order to make their ballot decisions?"

Mikey McD

Ben, your discounting of the Unfunded Liability crisis in the USA is frightening. Do you know that the "salary & Benefits" line item on Nevada County's budget has GROWN despite decreasing the # of employees by over 250 (over 25%)! At this rate governments will exist to tax us simple to pay for past promises to employees (unfunded liabilities). By definition the value we are getting from government is plummeting. Vallejo CA was dropped to its knees (BK) when ONLY A DOZEN firefighters retired together. The unfunded liabilities crisis is the reason our FED is intent on debasing our currency and fueling inflation. Although the debasement of our currency is one way to get your dream of Made In America based economy [i.e. an economy for manual labor jobs, lower quality of life, lower true wages-remember that the currency is worth less].

Mikey McD

I appologize for the length of my Posted by: Mikey McD | 27 September 2011 at 08:33 AM post but I want to go on record that I proposed solutions (and asked for additions to the list).

Mikey McD

From the econ hitman "I don't think the failure is Capitalism"

Russ Steele

Ben,

I am not sure all of those teachers, firemen, police and government administrations will think those unfunded liabilities are a red herring when there is no money in the pot to pay those unfunded liabilities, and the economy is on it’s butt with no tax revenue to steal to pay them off. Cities, Town, Counties and States have been making promises that they cannot keep. Where do you think the trillions of dollars are going to come from?

We will soon see what the real liabilities are going to be when these government agencies start reporting under GASP 35 on November 2012. Interesting those reports will come out after the election. It would be advisable for everyone to be asking every candidate running for office in the 2012 election what are they going to do when the public learns the real truth about the unfunded liabilities. It would be wise for everyone to ask before they cast their votes to find out who has the best solution. It is going to be rough political year, as there are no good solutions.

Douglas Keachie

All the attendees love their pictures, or else they collectively have an unusually large crowd of stalkers....owners of flickr sites get their view stats.

www.flicker.com/photos/keachie and select the recent collections on the right hand side and find the Political Folks collection.

Douglas Keachie

Russ those that would approve claiming "no money in the pot" just because Bush spent it all and gave the rest to his buddies by way of no taxes dishonor their country by reneging on deals set up PRIOR to the the highway robbery. To turn around and then attempt to blame those expected honesty from their government for the problem, is the height of arrogant chutzpha. Where were you when the deals were already on the books, and Bush made his moves? Did you tell Bush, "we're broke?" I don't think so. Anyone with a second grade math education could have figured it out back then. The tea party's stance seems to be in favor of turning the USA government into a 2 bit shake down artist.

Grow a pair and own up to the deals that were already struck with the American workers. Or expect the same kind of behavior in return, as you are beginning to see on Wall Street already, even if the media won't report it. Running out of money by shipping jobs overseas and refusing to tax that do have the wealth is not going to cut it.

George Rebane

DougK - thank you for taking and posting the pictures from last Tuesday's event. They capture perfectly the format and mood of the goings on.

Paul Emery

George

Some questions and observations about health care. From your perspective would you prefer to eliminate Medicare and Medicaid as government programs? How about military retirement health programs?

Less than 8% of Americans have private insurance other than employee based plans.

http://www.urban.org/health_policy/private_insurance/index.cfm

From Fox News

"The percentage of Americans with private health insurance has hit its lowest mark in 50 years, according to two new government reports. About 65 percent of non-elderly Americans had private insurance in 2008, down from 67 percent the year before, according to preliminary data released Wednesday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

"It's bad news," said Kenneth Thorpe, a health policy researcher at Emory University.

In the 1970s and early 1980s, nearly 80 percent of Americans had private coverage, according to CDC officials.
Some experts blamed the faltering economy and corporate decisions to raise health insurance premiums — or do away with employee coverage — as the main drivers of the recent data. They say coverage statistics for 2009 may look even worse.

However, public coverage of adults is rising in some states, due to programs like Medicaid expanding eligibility. So not all the adults without private coverage are uninsured, Thorpe said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529821,00.html#ixzz1ZOtn8SIk


Russ Steele

Douglas,

If as you say anyone with a 2nd grade education could have figured it out, then why was it that city councils, board of supervisors, school boards, fire districts, could not figure out they were making promises by increase the payout percentages, without adding any money to the retirement pot, there was going to be a problem in the future. This was an arrangement between the organizations and CalPers and CalSTRS. What did George Bush have to do with this arrangement? Nothing! Yes, any second grader could figure out if you increase the percentage payout, there has to be more money in the pot to pay the increases. It is obvious that there are government organizations through out California that were governed by people who had not pass the second grade.

Douglas Keachie

Russ, they obviously did NOT do their homework, and assumed it was someone's elses problem. The government is still culpable, and it is still up to the government to make good on its contracts. If raising taxes is the only way to raise enough cash, so be it. Oh, I'm past income taxes, and on to net worth taxes. Who really needs more than $100,000,000 anyways?

Creative new approach to B of A $5 a month fee (TAX!)

Will I drop BofA??? Nope, just go inside and use tellers. That costs the banks far more money, and creates jobs. Pass this on, and stop this silly fee idea. Occupy the banks!

George Rebane

DougK - "... on to net worth taxes." How many steps is that from Bolshevism?

Russ Steele

Douglas,

Your are right, they assumed it would be on some else's watch after they were no longer in office. Having bought the needed votes for re-election, now the mess will fall on the wallets of our children and grand children. These two digit IQs sold our children's future for a few lousy votes. By the way, we still see some of them in the grocery store and they do not have clue why I am pissed.

Douglas Keachie

It is still up to the current government to make good on its contracts.

12 Step Program, George, 10 to go, don't think the rest will be needed, once the country learns to get all its oars in the water efficiently. Right now, too many outta sync drummers, too many grumblebum rowers, craft of state and its economy engine needs repairs, hull replacement, even....

Did you catch the head of the NRA complaining about Obama tricking everybody on 2nd amendment rights by approving the NRA agenda? What a hoot!

Douglas Keachie

Obviously all that has happened so far has resulted in zero initiative on the part of those with serious money and power, to do anything about the problem the 99% are having. I see threatening to level the lot of those above $100,000,000 and let the government use said cash for stupid purposes (in their eyes) like paying down the debt and handling the social contracts already on the books, as a good wakeup call. Maybe with enough grumblings of mutiny, life style changing taxes, and revolution, they'll start to work on solutions, instead of sitting on their assets.

Besides, it would make for a very interesting horse race, to see who would become the first new billionaire, after our "problems" were dealt with. Could Arnie get back up to his 1/4 billion point again?

Russ Steele

Douglas, here is the real problem:


CalPERS continues to make unrealistic promises, ignoring the experts, actuaries and economists they are is still pretending they are receiving great returns, unwilling to address reality.

“The fund earned 20.7 percent in the 12 months ended June 30, its best result in 14 years, led by gains in stocks and private equity. Since then, Calpers’s value has dropped by $20 billion to $218.6 billion as of Sept. 26, as global stocks declined 17 percent.

Even with gains in fiscal 2011, the pension fund has earned 3.41 percent annually on average in the past five years, 5.36 percent in the last 10 and 6.97 percent in the last 15. It has only beat its assumed rate of return with a 20-year average of 8.38 percent annually.

Despite those numbers, CalPERS leaders still think CalPERS will meet or exceed the 20-year promise of 7.75 percent:”

In Novenber of 2012 they will have to report the real results and when they do, we will discover that CalPERS unfunded liabilities have doubled.

Douglas Keachie

I guess what seems to be the missing piece here, are the clauses in the contracts with the various unions, in which it is clearly spelled out that they are the ones in charge of keeping the governments' books straight, and giving them the power to tax as needed to generate the income to guarantee that the government lives up to its side of the bargain.

If you can show me ONE SINGLE UNION CONTRACT, in which such oversight and taxing power is included as part of the deal, then indeed, I will agree, the budgetary problems ARE THE FAULT OF THE UNIONS. However, since you can't, then the responsibility for the budgetary problems is the fault of every single US of A citizen out there, including all those who waited until Obama was elected to start complaining vociferously and blaming the issue on him and the public employee unions.

Passing on the debt to future generations is just one possible solution. Taxing the assets of the wealthiest is yet another. I can't conceive of any reason why one person needs to own more than $100,000,000. Yes take care of the obligations incurred 30 years ago, with the money from the richest and therefore the MOST CULPABLE, as they could afford the experts to do the needed analysis way back when, but waited until Obama was elected to make their moves. In the meantime, they harvested the cash, free of any pesky taxes. Time to pay up is now.

********************************************************

I note in passing that the Tea Party Right is beginning to back off blaming people (unions) and is now concentrating on blaming all the rules and regulations. As I have pointed out before, the government needs to maintain a help desk, staff by US citizens, living in the USA, of course, that answers the phone within 3 minutes with a human who has the final authority to walk the business person through filing out the forms correctly. Given today's online screen sharing capabilities, this should be a no brainer, and will put at least 100,000 people to work. All phone answerers must have a four year degree, and be well trained.

The robotic pre-screener will determine the type of business, using the standard codes, and then pass the person on to an appropriate screener, who can then alert the caller via email to all possible regulations, for that code, which will of course be online, and each one will include a common English translation from the governmentez. If after two hours of active communication, the form remains incomplete, the business person is excused from that law for one year, subject to review for sincerity and prep on the callers part.

BP cannot have a driller attempting to answer environmental regulation questions. BP must hire a regulation specialist for each major subdivision.

George Rebane

Let the record show that SESF was presenting unfunded liabilities data and ramifications to the county before anyone knew there was an Obama. The unfunded liabilities problem has been known and written about for over a decade. The protesting voices became louder as the problem became worse - things seem to work that way.

DougK 739am is corroborating the employer of last resort and government make-work assertions made in these pages since their inception. It does seem that the left's brilliant approach to full employment is to make the regulatory mess so bad that government will have to hire legions of unemployed (and unemployable?) just to sort things out for those wealth producers who seek to be in compliance, and, of course, make them pay for the 'clarifications' that the numb-nuts will provide without any guarantee of accuracy or recourse. This hearkens back to the well-known Soviet analogue of having thousands of men with wheelbarrows build earthen dams in the Urals during the 1930s as an example of communist genius in creating full employment. Students of history will recall that the American engineer to whom this was explained responded, 'Then if full employment is the objective, why don't you just give them spoons?'

In our case, 'If there are still too many unemployed out there, then why don't we just draft more byzantine regulations?'

Douglas Keachie

"CalPERS leaders still think CalPERS will meet or exceed the 20-year promise of 7.75 percent:”

In Novenber of 2012 they will have to report the real results and when they do, we will discover that CalPERS unfunded liabilities have doubled. "

So you are assuming the world economies and stock market are going to stay in the toilet forever? How much are the current unfunded liabilities, which you say will double. What percentage of the funded liabilities is that?

I note that UPS and FEDEX have had their lobbyists get laws passed that forces the USPO to set aside for workers not even born yet, in an effort to drive it out of business. Are you engaging in similar efforts here in California?

Russ Steele

Paul used Denmark as an example of a caring hearth care system in his side of the discussion: Here is the latest from Denmark:

Denmark on Saturday became the first country in the world to impose a fat tax after a week in which consumers hoarded butter, pizza, meat and milk to avoid the immediate effects.

“We have had to stock up with tonnes of butter and margarine in order to be able to supply outlets,” Soeren Joergensen of Arla Distribution said.

The new tax, designed by Denmark’s outgoing government as a health issue to limit the population’s intake of fatty foods, will add 16 crowns (Dh10.53) per kilogram of saturated fats in a product. This means an increase in the price of a pack of 250 grams of butter, for example, by 2.20 crowns to more than 18 crowns.

“It has been a chaotic week with a lot of empty shelves. People have been filling their freezers,” Christian Jensen of an independent local Copenhagen supermarket said.

“But actually I don’t think the tax will make that much difference. If people want to buy a cake, they will buy it. But right now they’re saving money,” he added.

The new tax will be levied on all products including saturated fats — from butter and milk to pizzas, oils, meats and pre-cooked foods — in a costing system that Denmark’s Confederation of Industries (DI) says is a bureaucratic nightmare.

Douglas Keachie

We could tax stupidity.....?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=270150396340391&set=a.253009658054465.61130.253006804721417&type=1&theater

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