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09 September 2011

Comments

Douglas Keachie

So "Constitution Day" is owned by the Christians?

This would seem to fly in the face of:

The phrase "separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state"), attributed to Thomas Jefferson and others, and since quoted by the Supreme Court of the United States, expresses an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The First Amendment reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ....", while Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to an 1 January 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury, Connecticut, Baptist Association, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Echoing the language of the founder of the first Baptist church in America, Roger Williams—who had written in 1644 of "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"— Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State".[1]

Jefferson's metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In its 1879 Reynolds v. United States decision, the court allowed that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In the 1947 Everson v. Board of Education decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote, "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state." [2] However, the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as meaning absolute separation of government from all things religious.[3][4][5][6]

Mike Thornton

The RR Crew is part of the Christian American Taliban!
They ARE the divisive force in this country and they revel in their false sense of superiority and intolerance.
If it weren't so mean spirited and dangerous, it would simply be incredibly sad!

George Rebane

DougK and MikeT - you are indeed priceless exemplars and successful demonstrations of how the contemporary liberal mind reasons. Keep on trucking!

Mike Thornton

Likewise George, you and TJ are perfect examples of what knee jerk regressives look like.
Climb down off the high horse, before you get bucked off.

George Rebane

MikeT - "... bucked off."?? Please say more.

Paul Emery

Yeah

It's pretty revealing about how paranoid some factions are when a bunch of new age hippies circle dancing in Penn Valley cause such concern . I thought diversity of thought, religion and lifestyle that was what this country was all about? So many things to worry about. Islam, hippies, socialists, unions.....

Mike Thornton

It's the same as putting yourself up on a pedestal, George.
It's hard to stay up there and the fall really hurts, when it happens.

George Rebane

To our progressive readers - please don't confuse 'observation' with 'worry', they are semantically orthogonal.

This seems to be another example of the many progressive responses herein that follow the paradigm -

1. Ignore the Merits of the Message;
2. Posit (fabricate if necessary) the Messenger’s Motivation;
3. Attack the Messenger’s Motivation as the real issue, and thereby
4. Divert the discussion to the Messenger’s Motivation, and, hopefully Morals.

http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/09/the-liberal-mind-messing-with-the-messenger.html

Ryan Mount

You guys need to get a room. Anyhow...

Wait. George, did you say Penn Valley for the "Community Unity NOW" event? Penn Valley? I want to make sure that wasn't a typo. Forgive me as I confuse easily.

Begin hell freezing over.

Paul Emery

George

I agree. Your motivation is the head scratching question to me. The message seems forced and empty so I have to wonder why you would waste the time to write it. I know the people putting this on. They are really nice folks who do incredible things in the community.

"cynical progressive version of community unity"

Perhaps you should spend a little time in other circles to gather some direct experiences before you blast away writing about people you know nothing about.

Steve Enos

So George takes the time and effort to rant about MannaFest? Such an open mind he has. Why all the hate?

Why the heck should one care if folks get togther to “change Fear into Love & Compassion” with opening prayer and ceremonies performed by Maidu Indian Tribe Sierra Center of the Spiritual Living?

It should be real clear to folks by now what George and some others here are really about. Get them "ragheads" and bash and insult those folks getting together that have an interest to "change Fear into Love & Compassion".

Under George's plan we also need to shut down the churches too, maybe burn bibles as those church folks gather there based on the basic desire for love and compassion to all mankind too.

Paul's post above covers it very well... "It's pretty revealing about how paranoid some factions are when a bunch of new age hippies circle dancing in Penn Valley cause such concern . I thought diversity of thought, religion and lifestyle that was what this country was all about? So many things to worry about. Islam, hippies, socialists, unions".

George Rebane

PaulE re 1208pm, you will rejoice that perusing these pages reveals that I regularly attend gatherings of progressives, quite often as an invited guest. I do know most of their activists, and they all seem to know me. Our discourse is civil, often entertaining, and reliably identifies our divergent world views. There is no "hate" between us even though we hold markedly different visions for the future of our country.

(BTW, I'm surprised that you make that charge - "... about people you know nothing about." - since we have talked of our experiences with them so many times before.)

Paul Emery

George

This is not a group of progressives. They are New Age Hippies, for want of a better description, who have a spiritual view of the world that does not fit political constraints. You need to know more about who you are talking about before you brand them as cynical progressives. Bad form on your part. Talking to me about "them" does not qualify as a personal experience and, by all means, don't use me as a source of what you should experience yourself before making assumptions.

Sorry to be so harsh. It would be like me making generalizations about the Tea Party without ever having sought out my own experiences. What little I have had has caused me to alter what might have been a harsher judgment than I offer and has actually nurtured common ground on some issues as a result.

Douglas Keachie

So where do I go to shoot (with a camera, silly..)? Decisions, decisions, I've done Constitution Day Parade and the civil war stuff in the past, so I will most likely give the new kid a try, as I missed doing Ridgestock this year. Could it be a concern for the pocket books of the old family Nevada County firms is at stake here? Are we all supposed to abandon the new vendors in Penn valley and rush back to save the local economy that gives us CABPRO?

"even though we hold markedly different visions for the future of our country."

But both visions are positive, at least in the eyes of the beholders.

George Rebane

PaulE - you misread "... since we have talked of our experiences with them so many times before." You are not my knowledge source about these folks, only a fellow conferee about them.

The broad cohort of "hippies" as you label them have no more of a structured belief system than the rank and file evangelicals sitting in church on Sunday. But they both know what they believe that can be conveniently summarized in, say, 17 slogans, aphorisms, or maxims. However, there is no mistake on how each of these cohorts will vote.

My point here is that the hippies are reliable leftwing voters who will have their world views of America-free global love and unity reinforced and reinvigorated by today's MannaFests, especially those scheduled contemporaneously with more traditional Americana oriented occasions (and this moreover since 9/11 is involved). The left will, of course, argue otherwise.

But sadly the dullards will not understand any of these observations and continue to claim that to bring this up means that the messenger is against holding this and other MannaFests. I will say without fear of contradicition, that if anyone attempts to shut or shout down MannaFest, I and ALL conservative RR readers will be there in an instant to stand shoulder to shoulder with the hippies.

Mike Thornton

[Deleted for being unadulterated off-topic crap.]

Steve Enos

[Deleted for being unadulterated off-topic crap.]

Paul Emery

But George, what direct experiences have you had with these folks? I spent over two hours hanging out at the TP booth at the fair for example.

By voting leftwing I assume you mean Democratic. That's a label I think
is no longer accurate. The Republicrats are fruits on the same tree as far as I'm concerned just a slightly different flavor. To call the Dems Leftys is not accurate. I suppose to the left of Repubs may be clear but their traveling the same road so what does it matter.

Douglas Keachie

George, if your goal was not to increase attendance at the parade, what was it?

The way you have written it is sound very much like going to Mannafest is bordering on treason when the life of the country is a stake.

"This is the cynical progressive version of community unity that matches the sermons from the other side of their mouths decrying their role in fostering the Great Divide (search RR)."

I'm not even sure what this means, even after researching your commentaries on the Great Divide, which happen to closely match my references to Kurt Vonnegut's Player Piano, which postulated the Great Divide, clear back in 1947. I think we are together on that statement of our current global/national economic reality.

Steve Enos

George made the following post about those posters here that do not share his views on this topic:

George posted... "But sadly the dullards will not understand any of these observations..."

So George clearly states his position that we that do not agree are "dullards" and we just don't "understand".

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary... "dullard":

(n.) A stupid person; a dunce.

RL Crabb

Manna, schmanna...I hope they have a good time. I plan on having a good time at the parade on Sunday. Constitution Day is NC's best parade, in my opinion. Hope to see you there.

Paul Emery

Yeah Steve. That's what bothers me about this place. I stand guilty of this as well from time to time so I stand free to be corrected. It's easy to call someone stupid of an idiot just because they disagree with you on a topic. What's the point of even having a blog, who's nature is to stimulate opposing and supporting views, if what you do is call someone a dum dum (kindergarten version of dullard) if they disagree. It's a pretty arrogant and lofty position to maintain for sure. And yes, questioning the motive for a position is indeed fair game in any discussion.

George, do you even want opposing views on your blog? I'll gladly go away if that's the case. Otherwise, a little respect for the other side please..

Mike Thornton

Once again, George and the Crew get to demean anyone they want too, in anyway they like, but can they take it when it comes back at them?
Nope
Talk about thin skinned!
Maybe you should start thinking about the "off topic crap" that you throw at people every freaking day, George.
Goose=Gander

Mike Thornton

I plan on going to church, playing some music and watching me some football on Sunday.
I've got some killer Fantasy teams!
BTW I heard Emmit Smith on the Alan Colmes show the other night.
Guess what?
He's right with Warren Buffet on taxes for the rich.
He said that while we wasn't thrilled to have paid $400,000 out of his 1st Million, he realized how "blessed" he was and could afford to help others to have a chance.

George Rebane

Gentlemen, the comment streams of RR are overflowing with opposing views, so I don't want any crap about my not wanting opposing views.

But I do maintain that you are either a person of perfidious intent or a dullard if you cannot follow the logical streams of conversation and attempt to fill this blog with the tripe that passes for dialogue on the overwhelming fraction of blogs out there. I give the benefit of the doubt when I identify these people as dullards, maybe I am overly kind and should come back at those commenters in kind. However, that is not my intent for hosting RR.

Disagreeing with MY ideas is one thing, but fashioning ideas that I have never had, claiming that they are mine, and then attacking me on them is also crap, pure and simple. If you cannot tell the difference between these modes of communication then please desist.

Mike Thornton

So let me ask you a straight forward question, George.
When TJ does that (which he does multiple times a day) is it "crap"?
A simple, straightforward, yes or no answer is appreciated.

Thank you.

George Rebane

DougK 137pm - No, my goal was simply to continue to highlight what many millions of us take as a constant drumbeat over the last decades to diminish and remove America from our lives. And a country free is defenseless against this kind of assault. It only has grass roots (family, immediate community) culture to maintain such nationalistic values.

The ability to maintain that culture has, for the most part, been destroyed, and replaced by the state which first enforced an America-neutral stance, and is now demonstrably going into America-absent enforcement. All of this is apparently what the new majority of Americans want.

I am only a little voice in the wilderness who observes and points out the changing season while being personally assailed for that at every turn. That is not a surprise, and is something I was warned about and prepared for.

Nevertheless, I take great comfort in that the ideas and values I hold dear stand impervious to and are side-stepped by most of my ideological opponents, especially those who do not understand them. The only hope of overcoming such ideas and values is to silence their expression. It is a well-traveled road, only the progressive left calls for such silence.

D. King

Community Unity – Liberal Version

Some background for those of you who don’t seem to get the larger picture.

Get comfortable, it’s a long presentation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38O2SIkkszs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsXkDpS6hM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSBruWDXzI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igq6Q4qGAkw&feature=related

Mike Thornton

Another example of classic right wing rhetoric:

George writes"

"I am only a little voice in the wilderness who observes and points out the changing season while being personally assailed for that at every turn."

(1) Notice how the perpetrator becomes the victim.
(2) The perpetrator is a member of an oppressed minority, standing up to the vast conspiracy designed to silence the "truth", while in fact it is the perpetrator that silences and censors, attacking and attempting to demean those that don't agree with his version of reality.

This is really classic!

Check out Sara Diamond's book on the history of right wing populism and you'll see this pattern and tactic played out repeatedly.

George Rebane

MikeT - what have I perpetrated? It is the left that continually tells me and mine that we ARE the minority voice in this country - has that changed? Are you disagreeing with what I said, what parts? It is only a "tactic" if you are indeed bent on silencing me. And for its being a "classic" (enduring with time), so be it; I did not claim primacy but stand in a longer line somewhere toward the back.

But I am heartened that you bother to give RR of your time; it must fulfill something of value to you. Thank you.

Kathy Jones

What I find interesting about the name of this PV Fest is the name.

Manna: Food that was found on the ground daily by the Israelites while wondering in the desert for 40 years. God told the people to collect double on Friday, because none would be found on the Sabbath (Saturday). On other days of the week the manna could not be kept for the next day, but spoiled. Yet on Friday is was preserved for the next day. Exodus 16:23-24

Interesting how this name. at least, Honors God of the Old Testament Bible.

Douglas Keachie
Mike Thornton

Why would I want to silence you, George?

I'm just pointing out the strategies and tactics you use and the fact that they are right out of the basic right wing playbook. I don't know if you're read Dr. Diamonds book or not?
You really should. If you're actually open to learning something, you'd find that the same patterns are repeated by right wing populists over and over.

RR is really fun for me. It's exasperating at times, but generally fun.
I mean, poking holes in the pretty fragile propositions that get made here is entertaining.

George Rebane

DougK - not sure what this has to do with MannaFest or commies. The use of solar in agriculture is good as long as it is the farmer who invests only his money and not mine. Apparently this one needs some of mine (and yours) to make the whole thing pencil out.

George Rebane

MikeT - No I have not read Dr Diamond's book, but apparently I'm still doing something right.

And we're always glad to get holes poked in our "pretty fragile propositions", and I'm looking forward to the hole that you will poke in the current piece on MannaFest. But remember now, you can't make up my propositions.

Todd Juvinall

I get what you wrote George and the usual suspects don't seem to have got it. These lefties denigrate Christians and the Christian religion on a daily basis here and most everywhere else. They have no use for it and usually complain that religion as we see it is crap. They then become indignant if you write anything they deem derogatory on a "pagan" fest. Their comments here show exactly why their ilk is becoming an extinct species on the idea logical front.

Thornton has a burr in his saddle because he seems to be complaining in every post that the conservative posters are full of crap and a bunch of (fill in the ad hominem blank). Well, I would suggest someone that has escaped the Nazi's and the Commies and gained freedom here and said thanks America by becoming a member of the military to help save us from the commies is far more important to listen to then he. When the left gets back their medicine they sure are a bunch of babies.

D. King

I mean, poking holes in the pretty fragile propositions that get made here is entertaining

(2) The perpetrator is a member of an oppressed minority, standing up to the vast conspiracy designed to silence the "truth", while in fact it is the perpetrator that silences and censors, attacking and attempting to demean those that don't agree with his version of reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI_SqqJIU14

Yes, yes Mike, I'm beginning to see!

Mike Thornton

No Todd, I pretty much, just think you're full of crap
And on top of that, I think you're a mean, nasty and really small person.

Mike Thornton

This one is for you, King

http://www.democracynow.org/2004/11/4/how_the_far_right_built_a

Todd Juvinall

Aw MikeyT, what a baby.

Brad Croul

I checked out the blurb in The Union and the festivities in Penn Valley run from 10am-10pm.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20110909/PROSPECTOR/110909744/1055&parentprofile=1055

There is plenty of time to do both the parade and Manna Fest (hopefully it won't rain on the parade). Manna Fest does not appear to exclude Christians from participating.

Try it, you might like it.

D. King

I have no problem with this; it's just divisive and disrespectful. So what else is new from these guys?

Everyone for "Community Unity NOW" stand in this line. LOL!

Steve Enos

So Mana Fest is "divisive and disrespectful" D. King? I sure hope that's a joke, but sadly I bet it isn't.

D. King

You are well aware of what's going on this weekend Steve. A lot of our small businesses count on people buying local, to say nothing of the taxes for the towns.

So yes, "divisive and disrespectful".

stevenfrisch

How could MannaFest harm local business? I mean really, holding an event that transcends normal business hours thus reducing consumerism, how disrespectful!

And what could possibly be wrong with celebrating are promoting "Community Unity Now!" on 911? Really, unity is a UN Agenda 21 communist plot!

And naturally, the US is a Christian nation, because we must embrace Jesus or be un-American.

And why would George continue to promote the "Great Divide"; its simple really, he wants it to happen, because he believes that only through the failure of America and it government can his philosophy prevail. As opposed to those of us who work every day to try to male America work, improve, transcend divisive politics, seek rational solutions, extend the dream to as many people as possible, as a reward of hard work and service.

Ya'll don't get to own "patriot", if you act like traitors.

Todd Juvinall

I recall those Rainboe People coming into the county and when they left the place was trashed. BLM and the Forest Service were really PO'd. So was the Sheriff. Those darn hippies.

Brad Croul

D.K, The very nature of the article seemed divisive and disrespectful. I had not heard of Manna Fest until I read George’s article here but I am (maybe not so) surprised that Manna Fest would be turned into a tool with which to drive a stake in an attempt to widen the Divide of dissatisfaction and discontent, insinuating that Manna Fest promoters and attendees are un-Christian or un-American.

Manna Fest sounded to me like just your basic alternative weekend venue but George applied the types of labels, "liberal", "secular humanist", “Great Dividers”, “Americana Free” etc., designed to subtlety, or overtly convey disrespect, distrust, fear, or belittle, compartmentalize, marginalize, or trivialize the event.

This blog seems to closely follow Saul Alinsky methods (the same, gasp!, methods Obama is accused of, or derided for using) while blaming others, like Manna Fest, of fostering the Great Divide because some people might not want to see a reenactment of Civil War battles in the park and would rather listen to live music instead. They can’t use the Pioneer Park bandshell now, can they?

Below is an Alinsky quote (I added the words in parenthesis):
“The organizer's (blogmaster’s) first job is to create the issues or problems,' and 'organizations must be based on many issues.' The organizer(blogmaster) 'must first rub raw the resentments of the people of the community; fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues (Islamophobia, CARB, Manna Fest, Agenda 21, Socialism), rather than avoid them, for unless there is controversy people are not concerned enough to act. . . . An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction and discontent.”

If it is Ok for GeorgeR to use Alinsky methodology, is it also Ok for Obama to use the same techniques (see RR Alinsky Administration)? Is the plan here that we all drone the same platitudes from the same religious text in America for our society to remain a monoculture that is free from religious diversity?
Forget Islamophobia. What we need here is a healthy theophobia.

stevenfrisch

Dear, dear Todd, I believe a 6 year old would tell you, it is spelled 'rainbow'.

Todd Juvinall

dear dear SteveF. I do it for a reason.

George Rebane

Excellent BradC! Yes, Alinsky did cover a lot of rules that are common to ideology promoters of all hues. And I am nothing if not a promoter of my consevetarian ideology.

The part of Saul Alinsky's nostrums that I consider reprehensible (evil?) are those that advise outright lying and teach ad hominem attacks on the messenger in order to turn or divert discussion of an issue.

No less, I commend your critique.

Paul Emery

Yeah Brad

This whole discussion seems a little weird. I know George has something he's trying to say but using ManaFest as a mantle for discussion is a little forced and raising the issue of disrespect for local business (D King) certainly ignores the business of Penn Valley, where the fest is happening. I give it the whatever treatment.

Paul Emery

George

I take it you are not a supporter of Machiavelli who believes it is okay for the "Prince" and his supporters to lie to enhance the standing and security of the state.

RL Crabb

In response to your update...Perhaps the Japanese erecting a Shinto temple to honor the dead of WWII wouldn't be a bad idea. After all, the Japanese found out the hard way what the consequences of a radical racist imperialist foreign policy were. So much so that they resolved to renounce violence in their constitution.

George Rebane

PaulE - I wish I were as noble as that. Unfortunately, to promote the interests of its citizens, the state has always had to lie to other states - it's one of the rules of diplomacy. But the state lying to its own people, that should be a no-no, to which one can give a pot full of exceptions.

BobRL - Interesting point in light of the Japanese not being in a position or wanting to harm the US, and by having their non-violent constitution handed to them by MacArthur.

stevenfrisch

First, George, as a property rights advocate I am sure you would agree that the owners of the building, more than 3 blocks from ground zero, should be able to whatever they damn well please with their building, and government should not interfere, especially not if spurred on by the interference of 'concerned citizens'.

Second, God damn those peaceniks proposing peace on a day reserved to commemorate war! Now who could imagine that a day when almost 3000 people died would be a day to say, "Hey, we want peace!" Now who are they to think that peace and war are somehow connected? I agree, the flag waving, pin wearing, false patriots should get that day to themselves.

And finally...."by a culture that is in a self-declared war on the west". It is inherently inconsistent of you to claim that 'ragheads' only applies to some Muslims, thus you are not a bigot, then follow with a statement that an entire culture is uniformly engaged in a self declared war against the west. Since you reserve the term 'raghead' for those engaged in a war against the west, and condemn all members of the culture for being engaged, then the term 'raghead applies to all members of the culture, and is bigoted.

You are too clever for yourself George. Paul, and Ben, and Mike may fall for your word game nonsense, but I see it for exactly what it is; bigoted, religious motivated, propaganda. You learned at the feet of the masters.

Greg Goodknight

"I take it you are not a supporter of Machiavelli who believes it is okay for the "Prince" and his supporters to lie to enhance the standing and security of the state."

Paul, maybe you haven't actually read The Prince, but Machiavelli doesn't discuss what is right or what is wrong. It isn't about ethics, its about how politics works; a gift from N.M to a possible patron. It is up to the Prince to decide what their standards are.

The famous "ends justifies the means" is from an old and poor translation. It's actually more like, 'when people judge a politician and there are no disinterested observers, the results will be taken into account'. The politics of personal destruction, taken to a high art by the Clintons, is in fact an application of this... any critic could expect the machine to go into hyperdrive to destroy their personal credibility as an honest observer. In short, the ethics of the Clinton machine wasn't much better than those of Renaissance Italian city-states.

George Rebane

Boy SteveF, nothing gets past you.

Yes, I and literally millions of others believe that the overwhelming evidence (e.g. shown by the Pew Trust surveys) demonstrate that a large enough fraction of Muslims agree with the constant harangue and attacks by Islamists against the west, to qualify the "entire culture" assessment.

I understand how many would also disagree with this, nevertheless that is my basis for the larger than smaller condemnation of the Muslim street. And on this side of the ocean, the paucity of couched condemnations by our Muslim neighbors is a very loud and clear silence.

Bottom line, I do think that the Muslims who don't have the caliphate agenda do have a problem. How do you denounce your holy scriptures and yet maintain your faith? Christians lucked out with their Great Commission in their scriptures by not having the 'Accept Jehovah or Die!' clause in there. (But as all know, even that didn't stop the raping, pillaging and burning by the self-declared followers of Jesus. We were just able to drop it in the later years without having problems with apostasy.)

Paul Emery

Greg

I did read the Prince and I appreciate your distinction you offer. Also I read Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli's Iron Rules Are As Timely and Important Today as Five Centuries Ago by Michael Ledeen. This guy is a real gem. He was one of the Neo Cons who scripted us into the Iraq war. One of my favorite Ledeen quotes is "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business."

He's a real gem, a scholar for the American Enterprise Institute who believes it is ok to lie to your own people if it's in the cause of nationalism.

Todd Juvinall

I was interested to read this from the Union article on this Code Pink event.

"Singer-songwriter Tom Wernigg has an acoustic folk style that's full of surprising songs like “Jesus Wants me Dead.”

Now maybe this song is about death and Resurrection? Probably not. Well, after reading the article it is clear these folks are the misguided participants of the interactions of the earths cultures.

Todd Juvinall

Oh, and since this is about Egypt, check out this link which is a good example of the Egyptian street and how they feel about Israel and the west. Our middle east pals.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/09/us-egypt-protest-idUSTRE7885PH20110909

stevenfrisch

OK I just wanted to be clear, the Muslims who don't have a 'caliphate agenda' do have a problem, because their religion itself is the problem, so all Muslims are 'ragheads'. Fine. Just drop the pretense of differentiating, because we are too smart to fall for your dissembling on this issue.

Here is the definition from Webster's:

Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

stevenfrisch

Oh, George, nice job not responding to the other two points re: property rights and the logic of celebrating peace on a day when so many died in violence.

George Rebane

SteveF - I think we're done, and it's time for you to go back to simpler sites where nailbiter games with nephews is the fare.

stevenfrisch

Sorry George, I guess you got caught with your definitional guard down.

George Rebane

Actually I'm willing to stick with my definitions. But SteveF, I'm not in your league in reasoning and logic, therefore it's real frustrating attempting to use what tools I have there with you. Besides, we have widely different utilities, and I'm just beginning to conclude that you really are as you have been described to me. Therefore, working to find a common ground, or at least defined and mutually respected positions is futile. Vaya con Dios.

stevenfrisch

And you George are exactly as you appear to any intelligent observer. Caio.

Mikey McD

Obama is a Bigot!

"Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (THE PRODUCERS, "THE RICH" THOSE, WHO CREATE JOBS) with hatred and intolerance."

Mikey McD

George, it must be noted (again) that your content is not being debated... just you as messenger.

Unable to produce, they hate just to feel alive.

bill tozer

Dr. Rebane, we indeed live in changed times. I look around the "Berkley of the Foothills" and see streets named Zion, Calvary, Gethsemane and can't but wonder what the rough and tumble yet God fearing founders of the town would do if they could see the kind of folk that populate the town now. Probably climb back in their graves. It remains puzzling to me that the aforementioned streets have not yet been changed to more palatable and inclusive names by the city's more progressive thinkers.

George Rebane

BillT - Petrograd became Leningrad before again becoming Petrograd.

Greg Goodknight

Paul, thanks for agreeing Machiavelli didn't say it was ok to lie.

Now could you give me a citation for the Ledeen quote about 'crappy little countries'?

BTW as far as I can tell, neocon is just an n-word usually reserved for formerly leftist Jews who turned conservative when the socialist models worldwide were failing while the Democratic Party was lurching left, and apparently Ledeen no longer considers himself a neocon.

Question... Can someone be a neocon if there's nothing neo about it?

Paul Emery

Here you go Greg


Ledeen quote.

From the National Review's Jonah Goldberg. I hope that's a Conservative enough source for you,

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/205187/baghdad-delenda-est-part-two/jonah-goldberg

This quote is quite famous. Keep in mind Ledeen was a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute before and during our run up to the Iraq war. Here's more on Ledeen from Ron Paul

"Ledeen writes of a fortuitous event (1999): “…of course, we can always get lucky. Stunning events from outside can providentially awaken the enterprise from its growing torpor, and demonstrate the need for reversal, as the devastating Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 so effectively aroused the U.S. from its soothing dreams of permanent neutrality.”

Amazingly, Ledeen calls Pearl Harbor a “lucky” event. The Project for a New American Century, as recently as September 2000, likewise, foresaw the need for “a Pearl Harbor event” that would galvanize the American people to support their ambitious plans to ensure political and economic domination of the world, while strangling any potential “rival.”

Greg Goodknight

I'm not a conservative, Paul, my interest here is the veracity of the quote: "here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words" is not exactly exact. It was a recollection ten years or so after the fact, and I suspect even a fellow traveler can miss a nuance or two over that amount of time.

If you're going to try to roast a guy like Ledeen, you might as well use his own words. It isn't like he hasn't written enough.

This sounds like your Pearl Harbor quote: “You don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste; it’s an opportunity to do important things that you would otherwise avoid.”, but that one came from the Obama White House.

Todd Juvinall

I like that summation by Goldberg who I think is very smart and has a finger on the pulse of reality. I like this quote of his from the article.

"I know — from painful experience — that there are lots of people out there who subscribe to the bumper-sticker slogan “peace through strength is like virginity through f**king.” I had to argue with such folks through all of college (and much of high school). Such statements are black holes of stupidity — idiocy is crammed into such a small space that it folds upon itself and bends all reason and logic in its proximity."

It all prove how dumb and plastic liberal foreign policy is.

Greg Goodknight

Back to George's central message, our local peace center decided the best way to foster unity was to split the community in two on September 11.

This makes sense... I remember at a Peace Vigil hosted by the same folks in the runup to the continuance of the gulf war, and instead of love, I saw more hate on the stage in the wee hours of the night than I have ever witnessed in Nevada City.

Brad Croul

Let us not forget about that other group that chose not to participate in Nevada City on September 11 - the Roamin’ Angels. Like the Manna Fest, the car show also siphoned potential participants and spectators from the NC parade. The Angels observed 9/11 and Constitution Day in their own way. How should we view this isolationist group that would rather polish their cars than attend a parade on a Sunday afternoon? Do they care not but that they have an endless supply of cheap gas for their rods regardless of the human and environmental cost? (you all get that I am kidding here I hope, as I was also polishing my 1970 911 on 9/11 and I was also a participant in the parade. Actually, I was kidding about polishing my car. It needs a bath, bad.)

Do we know that none of the Manna Fest or car show attendees were at the Constitution parade? I heard people talking about going to Penn Valley after the parade.

I don’t think a peace demonstration is necessarily anti-American - it is merely pro-peace. There were also those who were having a good time on 9/11 in Nevada City before, during, and after the parade. Is this sacrilegious?

George Rebane

BradC - I missed the Angels and car enthusiasts advertizing that they were attempting to promote 'community unity', let alone opting then for pro-peace. Capice?

BTW, I do believe that Al Qaeda and the Taliban would fully support the Penn Valley peace demonstration, and possibly even send a few bucks to help promote some of the upcoming peace demonstrations held in the same vein. That's the kind of 'pro-American' stuff those guys can really get into.

Paul Emery

George

That's a really nasty response to some really nice people expressing what they believe. Are you saying they are aiding the enemy?

George Rebane

Yes PaulE, I really do believe that Al Qaeda and the Taliban support "some really nice people expressing what they believe." And I do believe such demonstrations do give comfort to those organizations. Am I saying that these "nice people" are traitors, or are friends of the ragheads, or have perfidy in their hearts against America? No. You can also aid the enemy through ignorance, and I believe that to again be the case here.

For example, Lindbergh was a great American patriot and hero during WW2. But before Pearl Harbor, and our declaration of war, his America First activities (speeches, rallies, articles, radio broadcasts) gave great comfort to Hitler, Tojo, and even Stalin (before 22 June 1941). And that not because he wanted to comfort those scumbags, but because he believed America would be best served by not becoming a combatant in another European war.

Paul Emery

So George

Exactly what about this event that, in your opinion, unknowingly gives aid to the enemy? I really don't get it. I read the Union article in detail and it seems like little more than a yearning for peace by students both here and in Egypt and a few activists who oppose our involvement in the Iran and Iraq wars. The Ron Paul Libertarians also are opposed to the wars. Are they unknowingly giving aid to our enemies as well?

George Rebane

PaulE, you are now again into a realm of right/left explication wherein I exceed my limits. The reasons that elude you are to me so seminal that available time and space are inadequate, and energy fails totally in attempting an explanation. (I'm sure the feeling is reciprocal because to you the opposite is clear, so I'm not claiming an absolute here.) I foolishly thought my Lindbergh example was already embarrassingly condescending. But let's just lay it down to chasms that cannot be bridged.

Re the Ron Paul libertarians (lower case please, upper case is the political party to which Paul doesn't belong), yes indeed, they also give comfort to our Islamist enemies. In short, any domestic initiative that seeks to limit America's ability to project power globally would be favored by these devout and fanatical worshipers of Allah.

As these pages attest, I am a definite benefactor and fervent supporter of America as hegemon. That is why I cannot embrace the total libertarian agenda and, therefore, take the more complex stance to which I have given the name 'conservetarian'.

Paul Emery

So then George, and this is a very important question, what avenues are available to critics of our foreign policy and military iterventions that do not give comfort to our enemy, as you describe it ?

Recent polls indicate the American people want to bring our troops home from Afghanistan and Iraq. Does that not give comfort the enemy and should it not be publicly expressed?

http://www.pollingreport.com/afghan.htm

AS I recall Iraq is similar

Steve Enos

The only thing missing from George's bashing of the Manafest is saying the Manafest folks and those that dared to attend are trators and that they hate America and are commies.

Paul... so do you at last understand what George is really about?

George Rebane

PaulE, that is not a puzzlement. The nation is tired of a war that has been long, expensive, and for all intents ineffective. As we pull in our horns, slash defense budgets into the next decade, and keep our post-9/11 domestic fortress mentality, it is clear the Islamists have won this round. They have changed the world, and we have paid their expenses in doing it.

You ask what avenues remain available to critics of our foreign policy and military intervention etc, I don't see that any avenues have been closed. Do you? Those critics that foster reducing our ability to project power give comfort, those critics that argue for America remaining the world's hegemon give pause to our enemies.

The next real question here is, what financially viable choices do we have to defend America. Politically we seem to already have caved on our borders and our cultural skittishness to confront any ethnic group that challenges us within our homeland.

Todd Juvinall

Why can't the left accept the greatness of their own country? Liberals give aid and comfort to the enemy and it started in earnest during the latter part of the Vietnam War. We beat the crap out of the Viet Cong during the Tet offensive but the left turned the victory into a defeat through the press. We are the last great hope for the planet, we are proud of America and wish the left would get on board.

Ben Emery

George,
By our response the terrorists (not Islamists) won. A few hundred cult members planned and executed a terrorist attack and we have spent trillions, stripped civil liberties, bombed/ destroyed at least two sovereign nations, destabilized an entire region of the world, killed/ displaced millions of innocent civilians, and created who knows how many more times the amount of people on the planet that want to attack the US government.

It was the out of control and unjustified response that put us in the situation we find ourselves in today. Despite not having an outlined mission, purpose, or real strategy our military men and women have done everything asked of them to the best of their and any armed forces ability. They removed the Taliban from power, they removed and captured Saddam, and they killed Osama bin Laden. They should be honored and those who sent them should be indicted and put on trial.

Paul Emery

George

Who are the cultural groups that challenge us within our homeland that we are skittish about confronting? And who is "us" ?

Douglas Keachie

Hey, this country is really great. Look at the conservatives, who want to end the Dept of Energy and all that wasteful spending, especially 85% of the DOE budget that goes to, guess what? Nuclear Security. Small price to pay to get rid of the evil DOE..

"Sept. 12, 2011 - Thanks to funding from the Colombe Foundation, the Educational Foundation of America and an anonymous donor, National Security News Service reporters spent the last two years investigating the most secretive institution in the federal government: the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) and its radioactive weapons facility – the Savannah River Site (SRS).

We call our multi-media investigation The Bomb Plant. It tells how a secretive and little known government agency, dedicated to modernizing and safeguarding nuclear weapons, reaped billions of dollars in the name of nonproliferation. After DOE wasted billions of Stimulus Act dollars on environmental clean-up at the nation's nuclear weapons facilities, especially SRS, NNSA took control to hide the problems.

Begun in the Bush administration, NNSA eats up 85% of the Department of Energy (DOE) budget. It has bipartisan support in Congress. It became one of the most powerful agencies in the U.S. government by successfully compromising its opponents."

Douglas Keachie

George, following your logic of giving aid and comfort, any American who doesn't dedicate himself and all his resources 7/24/365 to helping the anti Islam war effort is obviously an Islamosyph. No vacations for you to visit the grandkids. We are at war!

Douglas Keachie

Every gallon of gas you put in your tank for any reason gives the Islamic Empire another reason to rejoice. It is un-American to refuse to carpool and ride bikes. And those happy people in the Constitution Day parade? Shame on them! The Constitution is SERIOUS BUSINESS, not some cockeyed, "let's try this" experiment in self governing. You are allowed to pursue happiness, but you are not allowed to catch it, according to some who post here.

Douglas Keachie

Paul, Walt Kelly defined "us" ever so well in the classic Pogo strip.

Paul Emery

George

Heavy are the burdens of the hegemon. Your position displays that by showing such concern over a little peace gathering in Penn Valley. I would welcome a discussion of the morality of America holding that position.

George Rebane

PaulE, my concern is not the isolated Penn Valley gathering, but what that may indicate re other 'Penn Valleys' across the land. (I try to understand sampling and sample sizes.) As ToddJ points out, the good hearted young people demonstrating for peace and against our Vietnam involvement, according to Giap and other Vietnamese writing of the war, was the prime reason for NV's fortitude. They told us that this gave them proof that the US would fold its hand from internal pressure instead of playing it out in the field. All they had to do was hold on; and the rest is history. Unity indeed.

Morality of America as hegemon is worth discussing. Let me put some thoughts together. Good suggestion.

Paul Emery

Thanks George for the respectful conversation. I look forward to that topic.

Now that Viet Nam has entered the conversation it brings to mind that the war was a lie from the beginning with the orchestrated phony Bay of Tonkin incident. The war was wrong therefore the protesters were right and should be commemorated not accused of aiding the enemy. The real enemy were the liars that got us in a war that took 50,000 American lives.

Recently we were discussing Machiavelli and whether it was ok for the government to lie to the American people and it was concluded that it was not. Also the lies that got us into Iraq. I know you and others will say that Iraq's having WMD's was a common belief but evidence since has shown that many were very skeptical and that attempts to bring up contrary information was stopped. By your admission and my agreement the war was fought for control of strategic resources so it's obvious that WMD's even if true were an excuse for the war not the real reason. With that in mind dissenters and protesters should be held in high esteem as messengers of the truth.

RL Crabb

Yes, and what were we traitors demonstrating against back in the sixties? How about a lying government in Washington and a totally corrupt government in Saigon? In our own war of independence we had Washingtons and Jeffersons and Franklins. The French were a big help, but it was really up to us. All the French got for their involvement was bankrupty and a revolution.

George Rebane

PaulE and BobRL - Please, we are again confusing topics in these conversations. No one has accused the Vietnam protesters of being wrong, let alone being traitors. But they do stand correctly accused of aiding the enemy North Vietnam. We are sophisticated enough to understand that a citizen can provide aid and comfort to the enemy without being a legal "traitor" - I thought we had already established that.

Ben Emery

Thanks RL.
Lies that lead a nation into invasions/ occupations of sovereign nations generally produces the same results, an insurgent citizenry that will fight until the occupiers are gone or they are killed.

George,
"We are sophisticated enough to understand that a citizen can provide aid and comfort to the enemy without being a legal "traitor"

Have you ever been on the opposite side of that coin and if yes my guess you didn't take it all that well. Its like saying the group you participate in hates America but not you since I am talking with you at the moment. Come on.

Todd Juvinall

Since we now know the WMD's were not there but everyone, including Saddam said they were, let us use PaulE's train of thought for other topics. Since we now know that McCarthy was proven correct according to KGB documents released after the commies were booted, I would expect a full and detailed apology from PaulE and BenE and all their ilk to exonerate McCarthy. Of course they won't but they expect us all to jump on board their ship about Bush, the French and British of WMD fame.

That is why the left has no credibility, they try to rewrite history all the time. Vietnam was fought because we had SEATO treaties (among others) and we were being tested by the Chicoms and the USSR to see if we would actually live up to those treaties. They used surrogates to fight us as they did in Korea and Angola (Cubans) if my memory is still ok. Anyway LBJ was a democrat and he was simply pushing liberal fiction as do most democrats and the result was a lot of mayhem. It took Nixon and Ford to get us out and guess which party they are from. PaulE should kiss their ring.

Greg Goodknight

And how does the malfeasance of the Nixon Administration enter in to justify the local Peace Center choosing to divide the community on a day that should have been one of unity?

I recall Utah Phillips on the stage at Miners Foundry (which my father-in-law almost bought in the mid-60's) at a Peace Center event trying to claim the warmongers were motivated by hate of the Iraqi people; it's that sort of misunderstanding that separation fosters. I expect Utah knew better but also knew what worked when rousing his kind of rabble.


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