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08 November 2011

Comments

Douglas Keachie

When it comes to misery you might want to look at the strange world created by capitalistic quests for energy, and the current situation in North Dakota in which a nurse with four degrees can make less than a waitress, and the hospital there is having trouble keeping staff, as the oil company personnel depts raid the hospitals staff, almost daily.

more details are found at:

http://www.ems1.com/medical-clinical/articles/1178581-ND-oil-boom-leads-to-surging-ER-visits-wait-times/

George Rebane

DougK - Have trouble following the relevance of your comment to the post. Please illuminate.

And the linked piece describes a situation where demand for certain services is outstripping supply. Are you implying that this is a unique feature of capitalism which would have been avoided by more government intervention, or perhaps the government nationalizing the whole enterprise?

Judi Caler

It is a testament to the success of George’s blog that in just 4 years he is getting complaints from his readers, as if he were The Union or NY Times! In the short time I have tuned into this blog, it seems to me that people of all viewpoints are free to voice their opinions. Perhaps I’m not getting it. Don’t people start blogs so that they can express their own viewpoints and view comments from others? Ben can turn the discussion into his favorite topic by his response to others’ comments, whenever they touch on what he’d like to talk about. If no one picks up on what he has to say, perhaps they aren’t interested. Or Ben could write an article and ask George if he’d post it—that would be entirely up to George, of course. I believe that is what just happened here. And while we’re still a free country, Ben could start his own blog couldn’t he? Or Ben could place comments on other blogs. There are so many options. “When you blame others, you give up your power to change.” ~Author Unknown

Greg Goodknight

George, you might be interested in Judith Curry's post today..
http://judithcurry.com/2011/11/07/disinformation-and-pseudo-critical-thinking/

Keachie's response to your post is, I think, described by #13: "Alice in Wonderland Logic".

A linked piece I've only begun reading seems quite interesting:
http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/pseudo-critical-thinking-in-the-educational-establishment/504

I'm afraid Ben's request, "Seriously, can you please try and have a real discussion on what are democracy/ republic/democratic republic are and what is their importance or downfalls" is a cry for his sophomoric treatises to be taken seriously.

Russ Steele

I really think that we would all benefit from Ben creating his own blog. He can write what pleases him and then we can all go and comment on what he writes. Assuming that he write something that interests most of the readers.

I would encourage Enos, Frisch and Thornton to do the same. Then when they write as something as interesting as George we can all comment on their thoughts, ideas and rants. Of course the real trick is to write something as interesting and intellectually challenging as George.. My guess we will not see any Enos, Frisch, or Thornton blogs anytime "real soon now" (Jerry Pournelle, Chaos Manor)

Paul Emery

This blog would be very boring if it only involved a George expostulation followed by a round of chest thumps by fellow travelers. The George regulars rarely disagree or take issue with anything he writes so for the sake of entertainment you should appreciate differences of opinions that gather here.

Todd Juvinall

Russ, great points!

George Rebane

PaulE makes a necessary point, and one for which I have shown appreciation multiple times. I will be the first, not only to welcome contentions with what I propose, but to exhibit such contentions to the many other readers who silently evaluate the merits of my propositions in light of how well they stand up the offered contentious arguments that seek to diminish what I have written.

And, of course, the dialogue and joust of ideas is not only between me and a reader; the offered forum here invites all manner of side issues to enter the fray among the commenters, battles in which I am not a party at all.

bill tozer

I personally would love to see more articles on financial and economic news. I am a small fry but love browsing the net for stories on the these topics. The biggest air freight carrier in Northern Europe has announced decreased cargo on each flight. China is temporary halting about 90% of its solar panel manufacturing due to low prices. Cooper, which is used in a host of products, manufacturing, and commercial and residential construction is over 3 bucks a pound. Sold a lot of copper at 60cents/pound. Are things looking up or down? These are topics which reveal more to me than what Nancy or Paul Ryan or Obama say. Sure, we can speculate about whether the political will is there to solve the problems in Greece, California, or Italy or even Ohio. But, doesn't it all boil down to wealth, prosperity, growth be it the OWS crowd or the Euro? Anyway, just got back from a family reunion down south. Good place to pick up dates, fyi.

Mike Thornton

Here's a perfect example of democracy at work.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/08/us/ohio-collective-bargaining-vote/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

Read it and weep, boys!

Todd Juvinall

It was a state issue MikeT nd the unions spet 25 million in their campaign. About 10 to one I heard over the supporters of the bill. Keep spending those dues.

Here is the one I like better because it has a real impact nationally and is a bellwether.

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/blog/ohio-split-yes-collective-bargaining-no-obamacare

Read it and weep MikeT. BTW, I thought you were opposed to The Citizens United allowing corporations and unions from spending on free speech. Oh, I guess you were only against corporations eh?

Greg Goodknight

Democracy is public employee unions outspending main street 30 million to 10 million to block ratification of a law passed by the democratically elected legislature and signed by the governor?

Not really. But it is Ohio politics.

Paul Emery

Yes indeed. That was a massive rejection of Gov Kasich (61% vote to repeal his anti union bill)
He defiantly had his tail between his legs and was saying things like "I have to listen to the people"

Imagine that concept

Steve Enos

Ohio just called.. it's backlash time!

George Rebane

Yes, the people have spoken. And now it's time to go out there, turn over some more rocks, and try find more OPM to pay for it all.

The response of a newly minted college grad was telling - "The idea that fire fighters and teachers are overpaid is preposterous." And, of course, it should be the union that determines how many police officers should ride in a police car. What was that minority of voters in Ohio thinking?

RL Crabb

The unions will fight back with the same vigor as the corporate "person". The vote in Ohio, as well as the ill-conceived Missisippi abortion initiative shows that the opposition still has legs. Voters in the middle will reject those parts of the Tea Party/Republican agenda that they deem extreme. A lesson for 2012.

Todd Juvinall

George you can see the liberals are ignoring the elephant in the room. The rejection of Obamacare by those same Ohio voters. Their vote was bought by the 30 million dollars of union dues confiscated from the paychecks of the workers. We win some and we lose some but the bottom line is it was one state, Ohio. Close by is Indiana and the law stands there. Hey PaulE, why are you dodging the Citizens United connection with the union money? Oh, because you agree with the unions eh? Hypocrites.

Todd Juvinall

RL, I don't recall the positions being deemed extreme. Where did you read or see that?

Todd Juvinall

Oh, and it appears the Republicans have taken the Virginia State Senate from the democrats today as well.

George Rebane

This we don't "deem extreme" - National debt $15T, national unfunded liabilities $100+T, states unfunded liabilities $3+T, annual deficits over $1T, and no hope of ever paying any of it off. No sirree, nothing extreme here, onward!

Mike Thornton

Face it guys, labor won and you lost!
It appears America isn't quite ready for your brand of government.

Todd Juvinall

Oh BTW, Ohio defeated Obamacare 66 to 34. Hmmm.

George Rebane

MikeT - you may be absolutely right. Now we need to refresh ourselves on Pyrrhic victory.

Todd Juvinall

MikeT dodges Citizens United again, and we thought he was supporting the OWS position against it. Hypocrite.

Paul Emery

Todd

I didn't agree with anyone. I just observed that the Gov got his butt kicked. The significance is that it was such a massive rejection of the policy of a recently elected Republican Governor (2010)

Obviously the union members didn't mind having their contributions used to support favorable legislation. Since they make up less than 13% of the electorate a lot of other people (47%) must have agreed with them as well.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE you dodger you. You have semonized Citizens Unites and yet here you are slobbering over the unions sending 30 plus million bucks. Of course the dues are confiscated and the management thugs send it though 40% of the members are opposed. So, savor your victory well paid for by huge money. What a hoot. I will savor your wipe out 66-34 of Obamacare. Much more of a national issue. Come on PaulE, fess up,you really aren't opposed to the Citizens United decision are you?

Paul Emery

Todd

I am not a supporter of Obamacare. I am a supporter of single payer health care. If I was polled about Obama's health care program I'd give it a thumbs down. Don't hang that pork shop on my neck. I'm not slobbering over anything. You don't read very well Todd. There's a difference between making an observation and taking a position. Show me where I sermonized Citizens Unite.

RL Crabb

You win some, you lose some. My point is that Kasich and Walker could have accomplished most of what they wanted and still have broad support in their states, but the urge to utterly destroy the enemy is too entrenched in both parties. Obama and the Dems did it, and paid the price two years later. The Republicans risk the same fate. If they can't figure out a way to move the country forward instead of this endless posturing, voters will reject both parties.

Todd, I wouldn't expect you to think the draconian Mississippi initiative was extreme. Even the folks in the old south couldn't stomach it.

Russ Steele

We keep hearing our local Tea Party Patriots being disparaged by our resident lefties, especially on the Sierra Foothill Report blog and in the blog comments. Yet, across the nation candidates that espouse the Tea Party Principles are winning elections. Here is an example from the Detroit News: Tea party activist wins mayor’s race in Troy

Troy— A tea party activist was elected mayor of Troy on Tuesday night, topping a city councilwoman who backed a controversial tax approved in August for the city’s library.

Janice Daniels defeated Robin Beltramini by just more than 600 votes, 52 percent to 48 percent, according to complete unofficial returns.

Mario Guanero

Oh Russ... can't get through 'moderation' on your little vanity blog, so here will have to do:

This is your proof? I know Troy, MI.
“… the median income for a household in the city was $84,330, and the median income for a family was $101,271…About 1.7% of families and 2.7% of the population were below the poverty line,…”
“As of 2010 the population of Troy was 80,980. The racial and ethnic makeup of the population was 72.7% Non-Hispanic white, 4.0% African American, 0.2% Native American, 19.1% Asian, 0.2% Non-Hispanics of some other race, 2.0% More than one race and 2.1% Hispanic or Latino.”

yeah, a realistic representative slice of America!
And did you even read your own linked article? Now, along with Patriotism, you’re claiming fiscal prudence in troubled times, unfortunately at the expense of much needed public resources, as solely a ‘Tea Party Principle’?

Weak sauce.

Todd Juvinall

RL, the "life begins at conception" was defeated 55-45. Now tell me how that is an extremist issue when the vote is that close? Obamacare was defeated 66-34 in Ohio. I would call that a defeat for an extremist issue wouldn't you? That defeat was larger than the union victory there.

PaulE, you and your cohorts have been screaming for the overturning of the Citizen's United since it was issued. Now you are happy as clams the unions spending 35 million in a single state utilized the CU for their purposes. That is totally hypocritical and I would expect no more scathing remarks about CU (corporate personhood). You crack me up by your constant dodging of your previous posts.

Barry Pruett

That is $35 million that the unions will not be able to spend on keeping the Senate and on Obama's reelection.

Further, Ohio was very telling. Kasich's law was overturned by the union muscle pushing and getting out the vote in Ohio...but the very same people voted against Obama (by a wider margin) in connection with his healthcare act. I envision a rerun of 1980. The unions and the rest of the left muscle a high voter turnout who then vote for the Republican presidential candidate.

I say keep pushing the agenda. A campaign of ideas will always beat a campaign of rhetoric.

bill tozer

Now I know what I want for Christmas. That book titled "How to talk to a liberal if you must".

Ben Emery

Russ and George,
I just might do that, create my own blog but at this point in time I have a thing called a job. My complaint was George fuels the hate rhetoric of us vs them and leaves the core issues alone.

Just follow this thread and view the us vs them about symptoms of the core issues. Chatter chatter chatter.

Megan

I had 14 or so links open reading your post this morning. Thanks for stretching my brain :) I still can't figure out what you mean by "spot creation" and I'd love to hear more about Wheeler's games of God... in an understandable format.

Ben Emery

What type of government should we put in place when this crony capitalism collapses the entire (private and public) systems?

Should it be a direct democracy or republic? What are direct democracies and republics? Or is the form of government set up from day one of this country the best way to move forward, representative democracy = democratic republic?

What do you think George and RR regulars? Or do you want to just keeping talking about Smoot Hawly, Wagner Act, Obamacare, or the absolute power of a 7% unionized workforce. Democrats are socialist Republicans are fascists blah blah blah.

We are in the middle of a political revolution and transformational times and the conversation is the same old thing.

Todd Juvinall

BenE, you qrite incessantly on these blogs and others and your posts are a lot longer than ours. Are you at work doing these? If you have time to post you can create a blog. Russ can show you or go to Google and follow their instructions. We would like to see what a liberal likes to discuss and then we can comment on yours. Come on you can do it man!

RL Crabb

Ben -I think most readers here understand the difference between a republic and democracy. The reason we have a United States was a grand compromise that gave the smaller rural states a buffer to the big cities. Without minority rights, democracies historically tend to fall apart.

Some of the problems with direct democracy are evident in our state, where the initiative has produced a tangle of conflicting priorities brought on by a dysfunctional legislature. Tweaking the system has brought the usual unintended consequences. Instant run-off leads to officeholders who don't really have a clear mandate from the voters. Proportional representation will only create huge legislative bodies and more bureaucracies.

Todd Juvinall

RL, excellent!

Greg Goodknight

To quote James T. Kirk, "No 'blah, blah, blah'", which Ben E. continues by posing a silly question rather than espouse what he believes in. While the original writer is not known, the statement "Democracy is two wolves and one lamb deciding on what to have for lunch" says it well. We have a constitutional Republic, the best form of a stable democratic state that has yet been devised, and a Constitution that remains the most progressive document in the history of mankind.

Lord Acton put it this way: "The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections."

Douglas Keachie

George,

You stated that you were unable to see the connection between my comments and your post. In your posts, you stated:

"My own education and experience guide me to ascribe the most plausible cause of human misery to the attempted application of collective forms of governance at scales too large to support a salutary quality of life for earth’s populations. The systems sciences teach us that such 'systems' cannot survive when applied to the human condition. (It’s Pareto optimal operating point is at a low level of aggregate wealth production.) And in corroboration, these attempts at over-collectivization have exhibited all the predicted modes of failure, and continue to do so a fortiori with every passing day as the world becomes more interconnected."

I had just the pother day pointed out from an article in Reuters that the success of China is thought by some to be as a result of of just the state intervention you deplore. At this point in time former President Clinton has released a book call for improvements in our energy infostructure, as a joint partnership between business and government, and indicates that an energy indepent Am,erica is a much stronger America.

From the article I posted, I think it is plain to see that there are a lot of unhappy campers, huddled around this particular capitalist bonfire, which will burn out altogether, should China manage to slash the cost of panels even further, and produce electric cars cheaprer than we can.

Imagine this scenario. China wants to really stick it to us. In top secret they develop solar panels that cost 1/8th what the current ones do. Do they tell us about this breakthrough? hell no, they keep it under their hats for as long as possible, and completely re-energize their country, and then put the panels on the markets, but only to countries they deem friendly.

That would be behavior no different than what is described in this cartoon:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6328808499/in/photostream/lightbox/

We need a Manhatten style crash effort to reach this before the Chinese do:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6328808231/in/photostream/lightbox/

You can see corporate American voting via there lobbyists to make sure the USA fails far sooner than you'd like. Switch sides while you still have a country in which to switch sides.

Greg Goodknight

More "Alice in Wonderland" logic from Doug Keachie.

George Rebane

Well said and agreed BobRL.

BenE 858am - Your desire to talk about the more seminal aspects of governance is laudable. However, you seem to overlook two aspects of these discussions. First that RR is intellectually as thin as its last post, and second that our country has both a short- and longterm crisis.

Seminal aspects of governance is a longstanding and ongoing discussion on RR; just search the site, pick a post or proposition that I or one of the readers have made on a topic of interest to you, and fire away. Or write a piece of your own on the topic to focus attention, and I'll publish it. Or start your own blog do whatever the hell you want.

Most people on the Right and Left believe that unless we fix our short term problems, America will not have a long term - hence the focus on topics you criticize. And it's even worse than that, the country's electorate is both irrational and in denial (Yesterday's Ohio vote is Exhibit A). Public service unions have taken the country beyond the tipping point. Over 20 million people work for federal, state, and local governments; that's one in seven workers or about 14% (have no idea where you progressives get your stats, go to the Dept of Commerce).

It is the organization of these workers under public service unions that has made government a fief of the unions; this is crony socialism. Add to that corporations 'too big to fail' who must appeal to the government's gun to survive, and you have crony capitalism.

Yes, let's continue to talk about your 'bigger' issues, and you can help by hewing to the post's subject and not taking off on tangent debates with other commenters. Read your own record on this, all the words are still here.

Ben Emery

RL,
I would argue that most readers don't understand the difference. You made very good points. I believe we need to bring most of the power of government down to local levels where direct democracy (dd) could actually work but I am not a huge proponent of dd. There are many places where the federal and state governments are needed but we have forfeited our local right to control our own policies to a cronyism form of centralized government. I prefer representative democracy where ONLY the people can influence our representatives. If the reps did our bidding we would avoid a major portion of the mess we find ourselves in today.

Douglas Keachie

RL Crabb,

Seems to me that we should have a lotto, and the winner gets a fully accredited postion in the legislature, as long as he/she is there to vote 80% of the time. That position would help give exactly the kind of randomness your strive for. Anyone who voted in the previous election gets thrown into the 'become a legislator pool. Only catch, all meetings with lobbiests must be taped, transcribed, indexed, and available for viewing by the general public. It would give all an important insight into our legislative processes.

if the person who wins doesn't wanted the job, or quits, another drawing is held. Person has to serve out term to get the lifetime benefits associated with the office. Winner would get paid extra to blog about his experiences. Keachie, aka sMARTaLEX IN WONDERLAND.

D. King

Ben Emery | 09 November 2011 at 08:58 AM

"We are in the middle of a political revolution and transformational times..."

Lighten up Ben!

Greg Goodknight

Ben, does "only the people" include public employee unions, whose pay and benefits are determined by the people their payroll deductions help elect?

Ben Emery

Todd,
If I were to start a blog it would be the opposite of yours in every way. It would take some time to do it correctly, not just post anything anti-democratic party and make some snooty remarks. That is why I refer to your blog as your personal journal, you are talking to yourself.

Ben Emery

D King,
Wake Up!

Ben Emery

GG,
Over and over again I say unions should not be able to buy off political parties or candidates anymore than corporations/ wealthy businesswomen and men can.

Ben Emery

RL,
I believe that is something like what Athenian Democracy looked like.

Todd Juvinall

BenE are you privy to the page views of my blog? If not then you have no clue now many people read it. But dream on. You are simply a liberal bloviator who just pumps out words. You are correct you would be the opposite of my blog's philosophy. Mine stands for freedom and individual rights, your would be big government and slavery. Good call.

Mikey McD

FACT: SOCIALISM IS FAILING AROUND THE GLOBE AS I TYPE...

George Rebane

Yes Mikey, but that does not mean that it isn't being constantly 'reinvented' and retried in countless places high and low. Socialism's failures are successfully ascribed to 'older versions' and purposely mislabeled applications or simply swept under the rug by the lamestream. The perennial message is that 'socialism works and next time we'll get it right'.

Mikey McD

Ben, your (mis)understanding of the political spectrum is scary. To even remotely insinuate that republicans are fascists shows your ignorance/hate.

It is the libertarians who's constitutional republic strives to empower the individual while your idolatry of government requires government/democratic force (fascism?).

You promote an unequitable tax system, you force SS and medicare upon individuals (why not offer the choice?), etc. It is the fascist elitists who sell themselves as a friend of 'labor' from atop their ivory tower.

Greg Goodknight

"Over and over again I say unions should not be able to buy off political parties or candidates anymore than corporations/ wealthy businesswomen and men can."

This is a non-answer, Ben. The public employee union distortion of local, state and Federal elections is real, palpable and arguably the major cause of the coming California public bankruptcies. Bourgeois election spending doesn't have the same impact and is often counterproductive, with voters rebelling against the source of the money. The way to counter that is instant online disclosure of all campaign donations

On related news, Nancy Pelosi will apparently be grilled on an upcoming 60 Minutes segment about a multi-million dollar buy of Visa stock at the same time she was pushing legislation on credit card fees.

Paul Emery

George

Since every modern government in the world is Socialist according to your definition because virtually all have progressive tax systems and national health care I again have to ask you what countries do you feel most closely match the model that you desire?

Mikey McD

United States circa 1900. Amendments to the constitution, new laws should only be 'increases to liberty.' (i.e. Fed Reserve Act, Income Tax, SS mandatory, etc don't pass the test). Civil rights, for example, does.

"what countries do you feel most closely match the model that you desire? "

Ben Emery

Paul,
There are a few nations that have a no government services form of government and they are usually called third world nations. Somalia is a good no government example.

Here is another look at a no gov service form of government. It is a good example for those who claim charity should take the place of government services. When any crisis hits it wipes out completely compared this with the recent floods and natural disasters in the US.

http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2011110752594/Special-Reports/cambodia-remains-an-afterthought.html

Ben Emery

Mickey,
Didn't realize Social Security was in the Constitution. Who do you think pushed hardest for the Federal Reserve? Jekyl Island ring a bell? The dangers of accumulated wealth and power in a small few hands.

RL Crabb

I agree with Ben, as most conservatives here do, that returning more responsibility and tax$$$ to the local level would make govt. more accountable and able to deal with problems in a more timely fashion. The CBO study says that Obama's infrastructure stimulus would take years to trickle down to Main St.

I'd disagree that the kind of taxes I've heard Ben advocate (What was it? 70% on millionaires?) are the answer to the unemployment problem. But I still think that there needs to be an increase in revenue, just not anywhere near those numbers. I'll also disagree with conservatives that govt. should not be a part of the mix. As George has pointed out here many times, we are going to experience more unemployment due to mechanization and globalization. There is going to have to be some kind of safety net, otherwise the void will be filled by crime.

Douglas Keachie

More head in the oxidized silicon from Greg. Too bad you're not the chief engineer for China. They'd never catch up.

Douglas Keachie

"On related news, Nancy Pelosi will apparently be grilled on an upcoming 60 Minutes segment about a multi-million dollar buy of Visa stock at the same time she was pushing legislation on credit card fees."

One would expect the styock to go down, if the fees were raised. Did she sell short?

Paul Emery

MIkey, George

Let me rephrase that to say "contemporary countries do you feel most closely match the model that you desire? "

That's what I intended to say.

bill tozer

sometimes our problems are of our own making....never heard of that little Rhode Island city filing for bankruptcy because it could not afford to pay its police pension.....What about the poor people? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-09/alabama-s-jefferson-county-votes-for-biggest-municipal-bankruptcy-in-u-s-.html

George Rebane

"...what countries do you feel most closely match the model that you desire?"

Actually, even the "most closely match" countries are not sufficient to handle the levels of unemployment that I expect we will suffer as this decade proceeds. I can generate a list of attributes that such a nation (our country) should have, but there is no guarantee that there will be a politically feasible path from here to there with the polarized electorate America must work with. Here's part of short version.

As you might anticipate, the ideal form would be based on the Constitution with certain of its amendments rewritten/removed. States rights would be returned to more closely resemble what the Founders anticipated. The federal tax code would be completely rewritten so that only the several states pay federal tax (not individuals and corporations). States would write their own tax codes which hopefully would recognize the existence of the Laffer curve and (at least initially) duplicate the fair/flat tax templates.

Wealth redistribution would be institutionalized on a capitalistic enterprise model. The voting franchise would be both structured and restricted to keep a wider range of idiots out of voting booths. The republican form of governance would, hopefully, be implemented by the states to as low a level as possible; pure democracy would exist only at the lowest levels. The states would be competing laboratories of good government, competing for citizens who are free to move, without recourse, wherever they wish in the nation.

Sorry PaulE, the "contemporary countries" query came after having written the above. Don't know what exactly you would do with the answer, since no one is restricted to contemporary templates of governance, and only silly people would presume that contemporary countries have exhausted the beneficial forms of governance for implementation in the 21st century.

Mikey McD

Paul, there are no contemporary countries that match the model I desire. The USA once did (BEFORE 1913).

Ben- I never said SS was in the constitution. AND I QUOTE "Amendments to the constitution, new laws should only be 'increases to liberty.'"

SS is a "NEW LAW" that decreased liberty and requires FORCE.

Perhaps I should have said "Amendments to the constitution, new laws, etc should only be 'increases to liberty'. Or "Amendments to the constitution OR new laws should only be those that increase personal liberty."

Breaking: Socialism is still failing in Europe (see Greece and Italy, etc etc)

Mike Thornton

People power and the free market at work.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20111109/NEWS/111109790/1066&ParentProfile=1053

bill tozer

People power and the free market at work is correct, Mike Thornton. We vote with our feet. I vote with my wallet. Just today a case of 60 watt and 75 watt incandescent light bulbs arrived by UPS. Free shipping, no tax. I be in hog's heaven. Also, just came back from seeing family in LA. I was wondering what laid back LA was thinking about Occupy LA and few seem to care or even heard much about it. The location close to skid row of Occupy LA has of course drawn the predictable street bums/alkies/homeless which now outnumber the anarchists and flower children. So, its turned into one big homeless camp. LA is so laid back. No wonder they don't even have a NFL team. But, Mike T, you are right. Its people power at work. Turn the lights on and you are bound to attract all kinds of bugs. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/05/local/la-me-1105-occupy-crime-20111105

Mike Thornton

Good for you Bill. It must be nice having so many people you can look down upon!

Todd Juvinall

Watching the local news at the Sac OWS was very revealing today. They panned around and there were at least four pole there!

Mike Thornton

And how many people are still in NYC and Oakland?

bill tozer

Why thank you for your kind words of encouragement Mike. So happy that we have reached a point of agreement that transcends politics. Yes, it is very nice and my new light bulbs will exude heat this winter in the bathroom. People power rocks! Maybe we can come up with a plan to bring another NFL team to LA or Sacramento. I will even buy you a delicious hot dog or two on Opening Day! Peace out my little brother from another mother. Thank you again for the hand of friendship you so graciously extended up, up, up all the way to little ol' me. Warms the cockles of me heart.

Ben Emery

RL,
The reason for high marginal tax rates is a defense and an incentive. The accumulation of huge amounts of wealth equals political power and influence. This distorts the policies of our government to favor the few and screw the masses. The incentive is for reinvestment of capital back into where it came.

Top marginal tax rate means at a certain threshold the higher tax kicks in. Roughly $2 million in today's dollar per year. The common argument is why would someone get up and work harder if they had to pay 70% in taxes. That is the point they either grow the business or allow room in the market for more competition by not wanting to pay the taxes. They are in the top 1/2% of income earners but not accumulating enough to buy off our government to increase their wealth through destructive policies that causes rest of society wages remain stagnant or decline.

Mike Thornton

After losing the Rams and stealing the Raiders, I'm not sure LA deserves another football team. Maybe you can order some free market Chinese asbestos to help insulate your bathroom. And I'll pass on that free market non-health inspected hot dog. But thanks for the offer. Go Bears!

Todd Juvinall

BenE, do you consider the unions who just one one issue in Ohio as part of the masses?

bill tozer

Lol Mike. You are funny guy. Already put the asbestos in the bathroom, so the joke is on you. Ben, "increase their wealth through destructive policies that causes rest of society wages remain stagnant or decline." Ben you make funny joke as well. Why are wages declining or stagnant? Its cause of demand. Nobody buys my dew-hickies, nobody gets raise. Cause Warren Buffet or Bill Gates make billions, are you saying that is the reason I only got a 3.4% raise last March and a dollar ten raise last May and my quarterly bonus was only $1,276 last week? I would blame Steve Jobs for my tiny wage increases but no use kicking a dead horse. It all makes sense. Those people making money are really the reason why the labor department said wages increased slightly last month. You very funny man. So, when the employers who lowered 401 contributions last year to0 stay afloat and now 75% of them have increased 401k matching this year, is that because some billionaire made less money? Libs think in a closed system. My wages are flat solely because some body on the East Coast made too much money. Nope, that ain't it. Its not a closed system unless you work for the government. Da private sector funds the gov't and when the private sector stumbles, gov't gets less mula to feed itself since it creates no wealth, only consumes it. Capitalistic pigs (oink, wink, oink oink ) believe in open systems where if somebody is poor, it has no correlation to my wallet. And if somebody is wealthy, it equally has no correlation to my wallet. Me thinks the cause and effect argument you espouse is rather cute. How sweet. You are funny man.

D. King

Italy at Breaking Point, Merkel Calls for 'New Europe'

There are too many good quotes to post any, just read it!

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45225209

Mikey McD

Ben, thanks for sharing your fascist thoughts... no more beating around the bush. Your desire/acceptance to give the politicians/bureaucrats/elitists tanks and guns to steal from the producers is not an economic theory, it is envy and hate. What's next, no one should be allowed to own more than .25 acres of land? or drink more than their government allotted 8 cups of water/day? or have more than 2.5 children?

Your faith in 'government created equality through FORCE' is insanity based on hate.

Posted by: Ben Emery | 09 November 2011 at 05:10 PM

bill tozer

D. King, its happening faster than I thunk it would. "Hurling towards bankruptcy", Greece is focused on a "unity government", lol. More like unity on a life raft that sprung a leak in shark infested waters. Here's the ugly facts. Italy is the world's 3rd largest debtor. They have 12 months to refinance 400 billion of debt at 7.4% (today's bond rate). Ain't gonna happen, no can do at that rate. Now, we have Ireland, Greece, Portugal, and the E-Talians all clamoring for a bailout simultaneously. Last week the good old USA funneled another 68 billion into the IMF, far, far far less than needed to bail out even little Spain. Oh, did I forget to mention Spain on the list of those with their palms up with their 20% unemployment? At least Spain saw the writing on the wall and slashed subsidies to its greenie energy programs. Too little to late. This word "austerity" keeps rearing its ugly head to the chagrin of the left. Nah, bailouts are more palatable than unspeakable austerity measures and a lot more popular among the 99%ers. Kinda liked what the Gov of Ohio said last night to his state and local governments. John K told them that there are no pesos, no bailouts, the emergency fund ain't under the mattress or hidden in the cookie jar. You voted for your own poison pill and now its time for one rather nasty big belly ache. Guess saying "I told ya so" is what the left calls "mean spirited". When the party is over have an adult turn out the lights.

George Rebane

Hard to add anything to that BillT.

D. King

I feel like Nostradamus for the inept! :)

Paul Emery

What we will soon be looking at is a global reset. Stay tuned for details.

Douglas Keachie

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/collections/72157627646959409/

Today's (Nov 9, 2011) demonstrations in Nevada City, now up.

Up your paranoia level, Obama takes over every possible media, to test emergency systems, and it is hardwired in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpiUKyZa-xE

Ben Emery

Bill,
The lack of understanding on macro economics on here is astounding.

"Why are wages declining or stagnant? Its cause of demand."

Wages are the demand. If people don't have money to spend there is no demand. To hide this credit was made easily available. The bill has come due.

I'll give a macro economics 101
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/view/201

Wages and productivity tracked each other since the civil war. As one when up the other followed. No good business person hires somebody just because they have money. They hire because their is a demand for their service or product and that employee will bring in more money than they have to pay out. This is what creates jobs not tax breaks for those who already have more than enough.

http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/view/201

Red line is average worker wages
Yellow is productivity

All the space in between has been credit until a few years ago because the credit ran out.

Todd Juvinall

So BenE, do you favor a minimum wage? And if so, what amount?

Mikey McD

Ben, is it your hatred of the successful among us that has lead to your enormous misunderstanding of economics?

You lecturing on economics is like me lecturing someone on how to play golf.

You know so much that just isn't so.

Not an absolute- "Wages are the demand."(see China and other developing countries- do Americans demand crap made in China because China hired another Chinese worker? nope).

Credit was not made available to 'hide' anything; The FED pumped too much money into the system and governments guaranteed too much (moral hazard).

Tax rates (currently over 50% for a successful entrepreneur in CA) do restrict hiring.


The world is not flat anymore and Keynesian economics is failing all around us.

D. King

Ben,

Thanks for the propaganda stats from EPI.
Here is their progressive propaganda video.

Note the players! (remember the housing hearings Freddy-Fanny)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u57KaIGqEs4&feature=player_embedded

Todd Juvinall

DaveK, EPI is truly a fine example of why the BenE's are so ill informed. When Rosa and Charles and Keith think it is great, they lose most of America. Is it funded by Soros?

D. King

Ben,

I really can't tell if your on a propaganda parade or a victim of it.

D. King

you're not your...sorry.

D. King

I think you're a victim Ben.

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/how-obama-revolution-came-to-america/

D. King

They hide Todd. They treat their fellow humans as lab rats. The really sad part is when they screw up it usually means people die(DDT). They have no ability to feel empathy. They are arrogant sociopaths and they prey on the young and feebleminded. Don’t you want clean water, don’t you want clean air; step right this way…creepy!

Douglas Keachie

The GGIQ test of the day, can you figure out why this is funny?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6331792111/in/photostream/lightbox/

Judi Caler

DK…Thank you for the unbelievable link to the FEMA Emergency Alert System youtube 11/10 12:25 AM. Has no one noticed this entry? Please listen all, and check it out as well. I am very interested to hear what you have to say about this. It will be great insight into the liberal mind (and conservative as well). I know The EBS test occurred briefly yesterday. Please watch the entire youtube, so that you can see that we are all in this together. Where are your friends at the ACLU?! I sure hope you guys don’t tell me to find my tinfoil hat again or we are all doomed. I forgot who was selling them—maybe you can get some more takers.

Douglas Keachie

Thank-you, Judi,

I think this is one issue we can all agree on. Ham, CB and walkie talkie may be the only ways to communicate, if indeed MS and Apple are adjusting operating systems so that Prexy can take over everything.

BTW, wrong cartoon for the test above, try this instead:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6332543516/in/photostream/lightbox/

Douglas Keachie

During the summer I keep a double layer of tinfoil on my orange safety helmet. It blocks rays from the sun that would otherwise heat it up, gets' lots of laughs in town, but it works great!

Mikey McD

A sincere question for the progressive types:

What should the punishment be for a 25 year old father of 3 who knowingly chooses not to pay his social security tax?

Greg Goodknight

Before lecturing Econ 101, Ben should actually take some economics. Ben, if you promise to write 5 pages on why your last piece might well be completely off base I'll lend you my old macroeconomics book, written by a genuine '60's liberal Keynesian.

Keachie, you're not in Kansas anymore. Wait until everything is in black and white before trying to write more.

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