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06 November 2011

Comments

Steve Frisch

Hey, its NH2020 all over again! Isn't it quaint that no matter how much things change they always somehow seem to remain the same?

bill tozer

"Individual freedom is lost as property rights are eroded." I don't like people messing with my rights. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are about rights. A true democracy is ruled by the majority, but we live in a Republic. In a Republic the rights of the individual are protected from the majority. The rights of private property include the freedom to exclude those from one's property as inherent in the right of association. And to the Republic for which it stands....

Todd Juvinall

Bill, that is spot on why America is different. We placed property rights on a protected position because without its protection no other right means anything. When the USSR went belly up, one of the first things Yeltsin did was invite a cadre of people in the "real property" business over to Russia to train them in all the aspects of land ownership. The Rooskies even put a more protective set of articles and wording in their new Constitution regarding property rights.

NH2020 was an important fight here in little Nevada County. The left tried to remove private property rights and they were defeated. People saw them for what they were trying to do, take another bite out of my property rights and transfer it to government. But the left never sleeps and they have now put in place many new mandates on my home and my land. Even the trees on your property are now the governments since you must ask them for permission to remove one.

Brad Croul

Ms. Caler needs to work on her mission statement if she wants to remain credible. So, let me get this straight; the words, affordable, livable, walkable, consensus, stakeholder, International, regional", are "danger" words. Can we assume, then, that Ms. Caler is pro-freeway, sprawl, suburban, congestion, and, she is anti-sidewalk and bike lane and doesn't care how much things cost? Are international and regional both dangerous? What does that leave - national "uber alles"? How does this square with states rights? What is the opposite of stakeholder - pawn?

Russ Steele

The Agenda 21 movement is like the cedar tree in my yard next to the fence which is surrounding my property, it marks the boundary of the property and protects my property like the Constitution protects property rights. Each year the cedar tree adds more and more cells year after year, and every slowly it will eventually push the fence down, exposing my property to intruders. That is unless I take down the cedar tree before it destroys the fence. The Agenda 21 movement continues to add cells, every so slowly.

The SBC Leadership Training Program teaches community activists how to organizes collaborative meetings, manage the content and control the outcomes. I am a graduate of the Training program. In other words, how to train attendees to become a sustainability facilitator in their own communities across the Sierra.

We have many graduates of the SBC Leadership Training right here in Western Nevada County, and they are often the organizers of all the feel good meetings on collaboration, sustainability, visioning, smart growth, etc, that we are invited to attend, all for the good of the community.

SBC was invited to manage the NH2020 process and we saw how they controlled and managed the out comes of the NH2020 public meetings according to a predetermined agenda. The whole process was being playing out here right before our eyes. Some of us recognized what was happening and challenges the process and then the out comes. Now we must not drop our guard, as the cells are still here, still growing and attempting to topple our property rights.

bill tozer

The Sustainable Develop crowd shoots off buzz words at detractors such as ant-bike paths, anti-sidewalk, pro sprawl to obscure the issue. The Sierra Clubbers want every new development to be in tight clusters with open space. Sounds good until you attend a meeting in one of their homes which they proudly show the attendees their beautiful acreage, gardens, pastures, and wooded areas surrounding their redwood decked home in the country. Do as I say, not as I do. More on topic, the current OWS in lower Manhattan is a perfect example how government interference makes property rights, free speech, and the right to assemble issue collide in glaring fashion. Brookfield Office Properties wanted to build a high rise in NYC. The local gov't said to build your highrise so you must buy a piece of property and turn it into a PRIVATE park that you maintain and operate and you must keep it open to the public 24/7. Never mind that the local parks in NYC have a 11pm curfew that allow people to pass thru later than 11 but not stop and is maintained by the city. Thus we have Zuccotti Park, a privately owned and maintained park that must be open to the public 24/7. The private property rights of Brookfield were trampled upon. Sure, they allowed this to happen to get their highrise. Their rights to exclude people from their property was also trampled upon. The OWSers chant free speech and they have the right to be there. True. But be careful what you wish for. Because it is open to the public 24/7, the OWSers cannot kick ANYONE out of tent city or bar me, you, or a group NAZI Skinhead Racists from staying there either. As OWS forms security squads and debates the issue of kicking trouble makers out of tent city, they are trampling on the very rights of others that they themselves esteem so highly. See ya at Zuccotti Park, its open to everyone!!

Russ Steele

This report is from Global Research

On Sunday, October 23, a meeting was held at 60 Wall Street. Six leaders discussed what to do with the half-million dollars that had been donated to their organization, since, in their estimation, the organization was incapable of making sound financial decisions. The proposed solution was not to spend the money educating their co-workers or stimulating more active participation by improving the organization’s structures and tactics. Instead, those present discussed how they could commandeer the $500,000 for their new, more exclusive organization No, this was not the meeting of any traditional influence on Wall Street. These were six of the leaders of Occupy Wall Street (OWS).

My emphasis added: Animal Farm?

D. King

O.T.

This gal is great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2tLYE4SYIs

Dixon Cruickshank

As soon as I read this SBC came to mind - obviously Mr Frisch didn't disappoint with the first rebuttal.

I have been in meetings like that and as soon as the real basic agenda is broched - that is not part of the agenda.

Mr Croul have you guys not been trying to a interchange built for many years ??? I guess you disagree with that.

D. King

Brad Croul | 06 November 2011 at 07:47 AM

"...she is anti-sidewalk..."

This is a disturbing trend in our society!

Steve Frisch

Hey did I mention that I am anti-sink? I really think that indoor plumbing has led to the serial softening of American men leading to the decline of our nation and the rise of world communism.

Mike Thornton

That's what we need, more right wing paranoia!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/06/1032611/-Another-incident-of-domestic-terrorism-thwarted;-another-Fox-News-connection?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+%28Daily+Kos%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

Greg Goodknight

So, Steve, does the SBC leadership training include a steaming dollop of Delphi?

My old links to Delphi manipulation techniques and how to counter them are broken, this looks similar:
http://www.vlrc.org/articles/110.html

Greg Goodknight

BTW it was either Caler or someone with a similar worldview (and CABPRO relationship) who was telling a local Libertarian group how the UN was trying to do something like replace the dollar or disarm Americans. It was awhile ago, when the local LP was run by a true Keeper Of Odd Knowledge. The current guys are rational human beings new to politics.

The Delphi facilitation is real and undemocratic, but I think the Agenda 21 rants are just the right wing analogue of the Thorntons of the world seeing the Kochs as evil puppetmasters manipulating the people against their own best interests.

George Rebane

GregG, it looks like you're working on a point here about connecting dots on Agenda 21 being a misguided and, perhaps, delusional (in its analogue to Thornton) effort. Will you be putting some meat on such bones?

Greg Goodknight

"Facilitators are trained to recognize potential opponents and how to make such people appear aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc."

Frisch is trying to do this right now in this thread. It's also the modus operandi of the FUE, Jeff Pelline.

Mike Thornton

I've got an idea,Gerorge.
Why don't you guys ask TJ, how many UN, One World Government "conference calls" came into the Rood Center, while he was on the BOS!
You guys are freakin crazy!

Greg Goodknight

George, it's all too easy to look at two cars going in the same direction and imagine they are both coming from the same place and going to the same destination.

Keep your eye on your own destination, including the health of the Constitution's earliest amendments, and where the Frischs or Thorntons of the world are coming from and headed towards are all but immaterial.

D. King

Who wants clean air? Who wants clean water? Who likes puppies and kittens?
Who likes CANDY?

Don't you want the government to give you these things?

You lefties are an embarrassment to the stupid.

D. King

Greg Goodknight | 06 November 2011 at 12:15 PM

"Facilitators are trained to recognize potential opponents and how to make such people appear aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc."

Frisch is trying to do this right now in this thread. It's also the modus operandi of the FUE, Jeff Pelline.

…and they plant useful idiots in the crowd.


Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/user/cvminutemen#p/u/8/UsBiXNvp9ec

Russ Steele

D.King,

Please warn me to put down my coffee before writing another one of these insights:

You lefties are an embarrassment to the stupid.

When I read that I almost spit coffee on the keyboard.

D. King

Sorry Russ.

Mike Thornton

It doesn't take a lot of "training" to see that wingnuts pivot from conspiracy to conspiracy to conspiracy. The fact is that even if every once and awhile you might actually stumble upon a decent policy or idea, when you live in la-la land (as most of you appear to do) it makes is really hard to take anything you say seriously.
And I notice none of you are denouncing the "terrorists". You're (once again) making excuses for them.....

D. King

Do you mean the Waffle House Four gang.

These guys?

Four Senior Citizens Plotted Killing Spree At A Waffle House

motherjones

Greg Goodknight

DK and others,

The "don't you want government to give you these things" isn't far off from the message of Sowell's "Conflict of Visions". Yes, the left tends to think if there's a problem, like poor people are homeless, it needs to be solved and if the right people are in the right government jobs making the right decisions, the country will be a better place. So credit standards were loosened to allow just about anyone to buy a home, everybody started getting rich, and the country seemed a better place until the bottom fell out.

The left tends to think if you're against their solving the problems with OPM, it's because you want people to suffer, while the right tends to think what the left wants to do will, in the end, make things even worse.

I remember Duck's Breath Theater's Merle Kessler (in his Ian Shoals persona) on the McNeil-Lehrer Report rapidly talking (as usual) with a reference to 'Democrats working hard to decide how to spend Republican money'.

I gotta go.

RL Crabb

The sword cuts both ways. Where are your property rights when a developer comes in, buys off the government to change the zoning of your neighborhood with a promise of jobs and leaves you with a degraded environment, potholed roads, and a big ugly industrial building that cuts off all the sunlight to your garden? Oh yeah, it's for the "good of the community". Been there, and been done unto.

I'll agree that the enviro crowd is overzealous when it comes to property rights, but the almighty dollar isn't any better. As with most things, it's a matter of balance.

Steve Frisch

Ah...Mike...It just goes to show you that when you give a moron oxygen you get an oxymoron.

Steve Frisch

It's true: I was secretly trained in the Delphi Technique by the federal government in a method designed by the Defense Department in the Cold War to convince rural residents to adopt a internationalist agenda designed to shift the nation to communism.

Mike Thornton

Wow, Steve, you've been trained as a "00-Delphi" and now that you've been to China, you're the "Manchurian" Communist, all at the same time!

Greg Goodknight

Frisch, you are doing a fine job of dodging the issue and staying on your long term talking point of folks here being "aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc".

While I never went to any of the NH2020 meetings the SBC 'facilitated', all the accounts in print and the listservs of the time were classic Delphi.

George, the more you and CABPRO align with 'Agenda 21' rants, the more you give ammunition to the Frischs and Thorntons of the world. There's no upside for you in it. Anyone given to think ill of SBC because of imagined Agenda 21 links is already on your side.

Steve Frisch

Good training, huh?

Greg Goodknight

Not really, Steve. It's just you being you. You'll eventually give up when it's clear the provocations aren't working, and run off in a huff making some blanket statement about the stupidity of everyone who doesn't agree with you.

"SBC leadership training" didn't do the job for NH2020, did it?

I can't wait to see the latest IRS filings by the SBC. Does anyone have an online link? Maybe their CEO will oblige us with links here.

Greg Goodknight

RL, you generally don't have a property right regarding the aesthetics of your neighbor's property, but you do have something of a right to the sunlight hitting your garden. A half decent lawyer should have been able to tie them up in knots for you.

D. King

Yeah, here Bob.

http://www.solardepot.com/pdf/CASolarAccessLaws.pdf

Mike Thornton

Greg:
Do you really think that it takes some kind of secret agent "00 Delphi" training to make you guys look: "aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc". ?

Here's a pretty simple suggestion. Instead of worrying about Steve making you look:"aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc"., stop BEING; "aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc".!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

D. King

Not everyone can be as calm and level headed as you are Mike.

George Rebane

Agenda 21 is what it is, and Judi Caler has done a workmanlike job in summarizing its main points. Agenda 21 is not an effluent from some isolated and fevered brains, but a formally established framework for worldwide public policy signed by heads of state and now being instantiated bit by piece at many levels of government in the US and other countries. Conducive to the sentiments and sensibilities of the UN, this body issued Agenda 21 to implement the progressive view of a smart and beneficial future for mankind on earth. As a visible and unifying banner delineating objectives, means, and methods, it needs no international conspiracy to bring its prescriptions into being.

Greg Goodknight

There's nothing secret or even sinister about the Delphi technique, Thornton. It's been out in the open for years.

An effective way of handling a meeting where the organizers really want it to go their way. Nothing more, nothing less. However, it is easily countered if their opposition keeps their cool and are prepared. An incompetent facilitator can be end run just by politely ignoring them and discussing the issues with the other attendees in accordance with the usual norms of civil behavior.

No one here is more aggressive, foolish or extreme than you, Thornton.

Steve Frisch

I love how we can create a conspiracy out of just simply running a meeting well by giving it the name "Delphi" and making sound like something out of The Omega Man. Give common sense a name and it becomes a Machiavellian tactic!

Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out that having a clear agenda for a meeting, staying on the points intended, allowing for wide ranging contributions from participants, getting smaller groups of people to provide input so they can focus on specific issues and cover more ground, maintaining a schedule, and recording the results so old ground is not covered every time people meet, is good business? That advise could be found in any business advice book by Steven Covey, Peter Drucker, Jim Collins or Patrick Lencioni.

But call it Delphi and it is an international conspiracy.

You guys are friggin' crackpots, pure and simple.

Mike Thornton

They are "crackpots", Steve.
Pretty soon they'll get back to the "Elders of Zion" or some other recycled and tired conspiracy theory.
I wonder if Robert's (Rules) can show us his birth certificate so Russ can run it through the Youtube, hallucination machine, looking for secret threads of Kenyanism?

Judi Caler

No, Brad, I’m not pro-freeway, sprawl, suburban, congestion; and anti-sidewalk and bike lane! The point is that words are being redefined by globalists, and we need a new dictionary to understand common words that have been co-opted and used against us, so that we can be on the same page. This bright audience must have noticed the semantic war which has been raging for decades?! WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH (1984). “Affordable housing” means subsidized housing; “visioning” is the process of attaining a consensus; “consensus” is a phony agreement to a predetermined outcome that stifles dissent; “stakeholder” is a person or group with no legal interest in property dictating its use TO the owner; “the common good” means the individual has no rights; “sustainable development” is a template to de-industrialize America; “sustainable” means whatever the government wants it to mean, i.e. government-approved; “social justice” or “equity” is the opposite of equal justice under the law and means redistribution of wealth (from the middle class to the elite); “smart growth” is high density stack and pack housing, mass transit and land use control.
If you use the new phony meanings and accuse me of having the opposite opinion, you would be correct. Instead you use the real meanings and accuse me of believing the opposite. Not true, and this is the purpose of co-opting words. I never accused the global elite of being stupid—just their useful idiots.
Don’t believe me. Start reading their words—it isn’t a hidden secret anymore. “Participating in a UN advocated planning process would very likely bring out many of the conspiracy-fixated groups and individuals in our society such as the National Rifle Association, citizen militias and some members of Congress. This segment of our society who fear ‘one-world government’ and a UN invasion of the United States through which our individual freedom would be stripped away would actively work to defeat any elected official who joined ‘the conspiracy’ by undertaking LA21 (Local Agenda 21). So, we call our processes something else, such as comprehensive planning, growth management or smart growth." –J. Gary Lawrence, an advisor to the US President’s Council on Sustainable Development, “The Future of Local Agenda 21 in the New Millennium,” 1998.
Thank you for the great link to globalresearch and OWS, Russ. You can see the “consensus” process with its trained facilitators predictably taking over OWS, just as the same folks have taken over our constitutional form of government. Bringing the Dephi process into this argument is right on.
Perhaps it would help for you guys to see the actual Agenda 21 document which, as George points out, is real. It may be a conspiracy; it is certainly not a theory. Have at it; busy yourselves with all 40 chapters off their own website, signed by almost every head of state in 1992. These are the people who think they know what is best for the rest of us in their own words: http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/

RL Crabb

It should be remembered that the 'Gang of Four' was elected to a majority because the sitting supervisors weren't listening to their constituents concerns. Once in charge, they embarked on the path to NH2020, which proved to be more intrusive than what residents were willing to swallow. Through the following election cycles, three of the four were defeated, but only by a narrow margin.

For the last eight years, the supes have maintained a roughly right/center agenda, and while both sides like to bitch about it, it's provided some stability to local government. Is it the intent of the hardcore right to go back to the bad ol' days? Good luck. I'll say it again...balance.

Mike Thornton

Judi:

Can you tell me where the local Agenda 21 concentration camps are located at?
I mean, the Black Helicopters need somewhere to land, don't they?

D. King

Mike Thornton | 06 November 2011 at 03:05 PM

"They are "crackpots", Steve."

Stop trying to marginalize me. You’re hurting me feelings. :)

The Delphi Technique

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rjoI7-esOw

Mike Thornton

King, I'm not "marginalizing" you.....
I'm just trying to find out where the "camps" are.
I'm sure there will be a need for illegal alien labor.
Oh, shucks, I got it confused with Area 51...

Judi Caler

Mike, why don’t you try googling your own words instead of marginalizing any thinking person with what passes for humor on the left? I just tried it with “local Agenda 21 concentration camps are located at?” off your question at 3:18 PM, and came up with 1,179,158 hits. Maybe that will keep you busy for a while. You can write a report for the rest of us.

Greg Goodknight

What the SBC links to is a packaging of Delphi called Open Space. Compare this to the Delphi piece I linked to above:
"Open Space works best when the work to be done is complex, the people and ideas involved are diverse, the passion for resolution (and potential for conflict) are high, and the time to get it done was yesterday ... a simple, powerful way to get people and organizations moving -- when and where it's needed most.

And, while Open Space is known for its apparent lack of structure and welcoming of surprises, it turns out that the Open Space meeting or organization is actually very structured -- but that structure is so perfectly fit to the people and the work at hand, that it goes unnoticed in its proper role of supporting (not blocking) best work. In fact, the stories and workplans woven in Open Space are generally more complex, more robust, more durable -- and can move a great deal faster than expert- or management-driven designs."
http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/wiki.cgi?AboutOpenSpace

This is indistinguishable from "Delphi".

If Frisch thinks the SBC way is different, please, give examples.

D. King

Be calm!
Just wait, I'm sure your mind will sync back up with reality.

D. King

Oh, and Mike, I'm glad you’re seeking our help. I'm very proud of you!

George Rebane

Bravo Judi!!

BTW, if memory serves from my defense systems days, Delphi is a group decision making methodology developed by/for the systems command of the USAF. It was also used extensively by the Pentagon's halo of defense contractors during the 1970s. I don't know where it went from there after the early 1980s when I 'went commercial', but as I was completing my last contracts with the government, I heard that various consultants were selling Delphi to corporations as a group decision support system.

Mike Thornton

That's great Judy!
So, where are those Agenda 21 camps?
I mean outside you're apparently conspiracy filled mind, that is?

Marillyn Ratliff

Judi, Great article. Thank you. Agenda 21 is like the fog, it creeps in on you when you aren't looking. Property rights are the basis to our way of life. Take that away and we no longer have a republic.

George Rebane

MikeT 443pm - You continue to ring true to form. No one has implied a conspiracy re Agenda 21. It is, after all, one of the most visibly promoted programs of collective action internationally. That this continues to elude you, as apparent from your tiresome cutesy queries, is a wonder, but further testimony to the workings of the liberal mind. Why don't you give this tack a rest, and see if you can contribute to the pros and cons of the evidence that non-conspiratorial activism at all levels is contributing to the implementation of the documented tenets of Agenda 21. Hammering on the "Agenda 21 camps" is below you; but then again, I may be wrong.

Russ Steele

George,

Thanks for the brain tickler, I remember hearing about Delphi, but could not put a finger on where I heard about it. Now I remember at TRW I went to a presentation on how a TRW group was using AI and Delphi to develop a method to capture all the community and public concerns about the movement of nuclear waste to a storage facility in Nevada. Of course, due to Harry Reid we do not have a storage facility. But, at the time TRW wanted do figure out how to get the communities, that the waste would pass through, to agree on the process, procedures and safety method to be used to prevent protests. The slick part was the use of AI to mine the data collected under Delphi.

Account Deleted

Land zoning and land use is fine in theory, but is now nothing more than a racket wherein the powers that be can, with the pen, reduce your holdings to nothing or make you a millionaire. A good friend of mine bought 2 lots for a total of about 5 acres just outside of Elk Grove around 1976. One of the houses on the other parcel was a wreck and it took them 6 months to get rid of the dead beat renters. Those scum never paid him a dime in rent, but were happy to make use of the legal aid he had to pay for to fight him in court over their "rights" to live for free in his house. He then obtained a permit and had the fire department do a training burn to get rid of the main structure. After a couple of years, he and his wife had saved enough to build a house on the other parcel. When he tried to obtain a permit, the county worker told him there was already a house on that parcel, and he would not be able to build another house there. He showed her the permit to raze the existing structure as well as the copies of the deeds to 2 separate parcels. "Oh - well, there's the problem" she said. "Once you got rid of the house on that parcel, we combined the two parcels as you didn't petition us to do otherwise". That's right, folks. The govt - without notice or warning - screwed him over and his lawyer told him there was nothing he could do. The county didn't have to tell him what they were going to do or provide him with any warning. After a few years went by, there were subdivisions everywhere around his property, but he was told that his land was "rural" and he could not subdivide at all. He gave up and moved. You know the rest of the story. A look at Google Earth now shows a shopping center where his home and "rural" property was. It went from rural to shopping center right after he sold and the new owner displayed the proper "paperwork" to those in power. Govt control of land use is nothing more than a scam and a con. It's all crooked as far as I can tell. The old Bohemia Mill is industrial, but the owners can't actually do any industry there because the home owners nearby don't want any noise or activity, even though they knew they were moving next to an industrial area. Land use decisions are all payola or politics. There is no due process or property rights of any kind.
Remember- smart growth is my house - urban sprawl is your house. And I decide which is which.

Greg Goodknight

Csn someone tell me what the local, state, US and international enviros would be doing regarding "sustainability" if Agenda 21 didn't exist?

Sorry, I just don't get where Agenda 21 is anything other than the usual suspects doing their usual thing. Sustainability should disappear as a motive force once 'global warming' disappears as a political issue. All we need is the current trajectory of the science to continue and the temps to continue trending lower.

Todd Juvinall

Back in the mid 90's when I was running CABPRO there came into being a federal program about forests. Now we all know the feds have a lot of forests but this was a new and additional program for forests. They were trying to foist an additional level of scrutiny and permitting and "connectivity" on all the forests since I guess they didn't believe all the rules and regulations already in existence were enough. anyway they, to their credit held workshops all over the state and I went to two. There was me and 20 Sierra Clubbers and some other eco's. I asked the feds why they were doing this and it was apparent in their discussion they were trying to implement some international program for forests. Well, I put up a lot of protests and so did the Blue Ribbon Coalition and many others from the Wise Use Movement (We were not a member but the local eco nuts thought we were) and the feds decided to kill it. They were shocked there was opposition. We know the program is on some shelf to this day and will be resurrected when no one is looking. Anyway, the world belongs to those that turn out.

Mike Thornton

George:

You guys (rightwing regressives) have been using the same tired "conspiracy" theories for over a hundred years, to frighten and organize the troops. Any good conspiracy has enough true in it to make is (somewhat) plausible. It's just tiring to see the same old $!#+ recycled over and over and over, with only the names changed.
You guys will be on to another conspiracy when this one plays out and then another one after that.
It's what you do!

Todd Juvinall

George it appears MikeT doesn't believe there was a life of=r death struggle between America and communism in the last century. I would appear he would have never defensed this country against those threats because he seems to think it was all a conspiracy of rightwing extremists! Amazing.

George Rebane

MikeT 806am - I do believe that your comment has now completely confirmed your reading skills and will remain as testimony to same. (For the casual reader, MikeT is responding to my 603pm.)

GregG 854pm - Actually Agenda 21 calls for surprisingly more 'smart growth' and restrictions of liberties, lands access, and economic activity than is usually perceived or attributed by the wo/man-in-the-street to the garden variety environmental movement in the US. But yes, the "international enviros" have been at it for a long time since Agenda 21 is about 20 years old. That's why one might confuse it with the same old same old. And in the final analysis, it's not the age of the effort that matters, but what it is doing to us. So you don't have to see these things under a unifying umbrella, but just resist them individually.

Todd Juvinall

I am surprised that GregG would pooh-pooh Agenda 21 which is an actual Resolution of action by the UN and then overlook the IPCC conclusions which have driven AGW from the confines of the UN. One is no different than the other. Both activities have wormed there way into even the General Plans of out little county.

Judi Caler

Good questions, Greg 11/6, 8:54 PM. Agenda 21 is a synonym for Sustainable Development and was written in order to advance the cause of a one world government run by a ruling elite. It purports to affect every facet of our lives, and it cannot coexist with our Constitution and freedom. The plan has been around for a very long time (which is WHY the story doesn’t change, Mike). The global elite created the League of Nations and, when that failed, the United Nations to do their bidding. The first time the term ‘Sustainable Development’ was used was in another UN document, Our Common Future, released in 1987.
Yes, "sustainable" (i.e. government-approved everything) should disappear if man-made global warming is exposed as the hoax that it is. That’s why they won’t drop the façade. They all know it is a hoax (see quotes below). Using their usual semantic tricks, they changed the name to ‘climate change,’ as it became apparent the earth might be cooling. In the early 1960’s, the global elite tried to unite everyone under the banner of “disarmament" for the same purpose. That didn’t work out well because of the cold war. They needed another excuse for a one world government, and thus the environmental movement was co-opted. It isn’t about the environment; it is about control. H.L. Mencken said “the urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” This is exactly the case here.
All this would be laughable if they weren’t so close to achieving their goal by implementing sustainable development locally in every county in America. Through the consensus and visioning processes, our representative form of government has been undermined. Add to this, Obama’s Executive Order #13575 which created the White House Rural Council (June 9, 2011) to exercise control over rural America in education, food supply, land use, water use, recreation, property, energy, and the lives of 16% of the U.S. population. The most significant tools for taking our land and property rights to date have been the Endangered Species Act, conservation easements and land acquisitions from so-called “willing” sellers, as referenced in the sad comment by Scott Obermuller. Other means are through road closings, the destruction of dams and the UN World Heritage Sites. The Forest Service is helping with much of this, Todd.
Without the climate change “catastrophe” there would be no excuse to steal our freedom in the name of saving humanity. So don’t think it will fall apart when temperatures cool.

Check out these quotes:
“…In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself.” –Club of Rome, premier environmental think-tank, consultants to the UN.

“We need to get some broad based support to capture the public’s imagination…So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts…Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.” –Prof. Stephen Schneider, Stanford Professor of Climatology, lead author of many IPCC reports.

“We’ve got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy.” --Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation.

“No matter if the science of global warming is all phony…climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world.” –Christine Stewart, former Canadian Minister of the Environment.

“It doesn’t matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.” –Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace.

Paul Emery

What about the new land use restrictions to be discussed tomorrow by our Board of Supervisors about zoning what plants you can grow in your backyard or garage?

http://www.theunion.com/article/20111104/NEWS/111109894&parentprofile=search

D. King

Judi Caler | 07 November 2011 at 09:37 AM

And all funded by a tax on evil, evil carbon.

That is why they have a Pitbull grip on Climate Change.

mike thornton

First off, George, the idea that somehow or another "smart growth" is an international communist plot, shows the shallowness and backwardness of your thinking. Nevertheless, the fact still remains that rightwing regressives have a long history of conspiracy laden fear mongering. I refer to to the work of Dr. Sara Diamond, who shows that the "Agenda 21" type scare tactics have been used repeatedly to rally the troops. You guys always need an "enemy", because you have nothing positive to offer.
All you have to do is read Judi's fear mongering essay (above) TJ's statements about "life and death" struggle and your constant use of lables like "communist" as examples of the fact that what I'm saying is correct.
I think part of the issue is that (here) you have the "Gang of Eight" constantly reinforcing each others paranoia and prejudice, so it seems (to you guys) like what you're saying makes sense. In the wider world, however, it just sounds like so much paranoid ranting.
Now that I think about it, I think you, Todd and Judi would have been happy being part of the group putting Galileo on trial for daring to say that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

mike thornton

Let's add King to the Galileo list

D. King

I was feeling left out!

Todd Juvinall

When someone gets educated (something MikeT needs terribly) on these issues perhaps they will have a different view. Naw, there are no intelligent folks on the left but they are fun to read. What is apparent is the left, the hidden socialists/communists, are now the "pushers" of the extremist rules on our private property and the attack on our Constitution. MikeT is the latest example of one of them.

Regarding the right doing nothing according to MikeT. Perhaps the right is too busy creating jobs and making the planet's economy work and it is the left trying to stop them. It is simply amusing to read the childish gibberish of such a ill-informed member of the extreme left. What a hoot!

Todd Juvinall

Actually regarding Galileo. The R's would be helping him (trying to turn gravity into a product to make life better) and the left would be burning him at the stake (since they couldn't figure out how to get a government handout from gravity). Isn't it interesting how extremist lefty's try and reverse reality?

D. King

mike thornton | 07 November 2011 at 10:26 AM

Oh Mr. Thornton, oracle of the left, please tell us how changing the patent laws from “First to Invent” to “First to Publish” will make America more competitive. Or was it just the name of the bill that convinced you…”The America Invents Act”-(with free Candy). Please elaborate!

Greg Goodknight

Judi, "global warming" isn't a hoax. It really has gotten warmer since the end of the little ice age... and a good case can be made that mankind has affected climate now and in the past. The question is how, and how much, and the answers are the problem.

There is no doubt that many, if not all, of the senior scientists involved in the IPCC process believe CO2 (and any other greenhouse gas) really is a key driver of unstable positive feedbacks. They theorize these can cause a temperature spike in much the same way a bad public address system can screech an eardrum-damaging feedback spike. It isn't a hoax; they really believe it.

The main not-quite-physical evidence for it is that their computer models balance when they include this positive feedback (involving the additional production of the dominant greenhouse gas, water vapor, from evaporation when the temp goes up). The existing models don't balance without this, but those models also lack good ocean and cloud modeling, and they have been kicking and screaming in tantrums to keep excluding solar-magnetic cloud forcings out of their models.

Global warming isn't a hoax, and neither is catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (cAGW). It's just bad groupthink science, and the pols who have grabbed it as convenient cudgel aren't perpetrating a hoax (not being science minded, they wouldn't know a hoax if they saw it), they're just doing what pols do, use any excuse to grab power.

The cAGW scare is currently in a slow-mo implosion. This Agenda 21 thing (and the entire sustainability movement) that has you exercised is secondary BS to the cAGW issue. Nor will there be money to pour into these efforts in the new world disorder that's on its way courtesy of the welfare state contractions starting right about now, with Greece leading the way and California not being too far behind.

Don't worry, be happy. Keep the 1st and 2nd Amendments intact and all will be fine while the cAGW scare subsides, "sustainability" disappears as a political force and is eventually replaced with another global cooling scare, which, unlike runaway warming, really does happen on a regular basis and *will* happen again. Any millennium now.

mike thornton

TJ writes"

"Perhaps the right is too busy creating jobs and making the planet's economy work"

Not doing such a good job or it!

Oh Great God King: "Please tell us how continuing to deny something that is accepted fact helps move humanity and society forward?

D. King

Mike T.

"...helps move humanity and society forward?"

Well, we should move forward, towards the candy!

Greg Goodknight

"But yes, the "international enviros" have been at it for a long time since Agenda 21 is about 20 years old. That's why one might confuse it with the same old same old." George R


George, the IPCC is 23 years old, dating from 1988. Agenda 21 is just an offshoot that started in '92; fighting Agenda 21 is like trimming back the Kudzu. Kill the rootstock, stop the trimming.

The Thorntons and Frischs of the world will just have ammo to make you look silly to the unwashed as long as you insist on fighting UN conspiracies. The issue is CO2, take that away as a motive force and you're most of the way home.

Todd Juvinall

If we hadn't had the League of Nations debacle, then I think Greg would have a valid point. Unfortunately, he doesn't regarding the AGW issue. It is true the planet has gotten warmer since the Little Ice Age but that is like saying I turned off the juice to the ice box and the milk got warmer.

D. King

Control of energy is the end game.
That's what you have to take away.

Paul Emery

Those of you that are concerned about zoning regs should check out tomorrows Board of Supervisors meeting where they will discuss what plants you can grow in your backyard and even in your house. Does this come from Agenda 21 and the UN or from the Socialist Communist conspiracy?

http://www.theunion.com/article/20111104/NEWS/111109894&parentprofile=search

Douglas  Keachie

"Isn't it interesting how extremist lefty's try and reverse reality?"

The reason the Republican House can never jumpstart the economy successfully is that they are forever getting the positive [JOBS] mixed up with the negative [less taxes and regulations] and thus shorting out (and short changing) the electorate.

D. King

That was good Doug.

Mike Thornton

OMG!
I agree with GG!!!
Well, almost....
I believe we should have a definitive, science based debate as compared to trumped up "UN conspiracies". Frankly, I believe the science is in and the issue is settled, but if GG wants to let the science rule and then move forward, I agree!

Greg Goodknight

Thornton, heed the words of Richard Feynmann... "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts". The fundamental science really is pretty much in and settling down, but it isn't what Al Gore told you to think.

Even the oft-misquoted cowboy physicist in Berkeley, Richard Muller, who remains a CO2 alarmist ('very probably true') of many years standing , wrote in a recent paper he coauthored with Dr. Judith Curry, "The human component of global warming may be somewhat overestimated." This was a result of a fairly clear indication from the prelimary Berkeley EST dataset and investigations that the warming of the latter 20th century pretty well tracked oceanic surface temperature trends that were unknown until the last decade.

Really, Thornton, the IPCC and the UN have been trying to prove CO2 is the bogeyman in modern climate for 23 years in order to shake the 1st world down for imagined reparations to the 3rd world and tax energy producers. While it was on a roll and hitting a political zenith in 2006, the wheels are now falling off. Get used to losing; the faster you jump off the bandwagon the better off we'll all be.

Mike Thornton

GG, you were doing fine and then you had to go off into "imagined reparations for the 3rd world" You guys just can't help throwing out the race card can ya?
Do you really want to talk about what the so-called "First World" has done (and continues to do) to the so-called "Third World"?

George Rebane

GregG - didn't mean to rank Agenda21 type legislation with AGW legislation. To me they're both important, and they fly in tight formation in the minds of those are putting us into smaller and smaller boxes.

re MikeT 1020am - "First off, George, the idea that somehow or another "smart growth" is an international communist plot, shows the shallowness and backwardness of your thinking." Wow! you just continue to make this crap up, paint a bullseye on it, and then start blasting away. When you people get into a room by yourselves, how do you manage a conversation that goes anywhere when they all have your skills? Who claimed that smart growth is "an international communist plat"? In fact, I'm not aware that international communism exists - are you claiming it does?

Mike Thornton

As near as I can tell, George, pretty much as far as you're concerned everything is an international communist plot. Except, that is, when it's part of the international Muslim plot!

Paul Emery

So are the Commies responsible for laws that send you to jail for growing illegal plants?

Todd Juvinall

Greg your response regarding the third world was spot on. The laws on cap and trade were that very thing. The trading of carbon credits from the first world to the third world so they could have an industrial base instead of being shortchanged according to the C and T proponents. I am surprised the resident lefty poster MT didn't know that. If he had remembered, the Kyoto Treaty was where it began and why it was defeated 99-0 when Clinton/Gore sent it to the Senate for ratification. The Senators, all of them, knew the treaty was transfer of our wealth to the third world.

So, Greg smacks down the MT once again. I would think he being destroyed in debate so much would make him start paying attention a bit more.

Todd Juvinall

Paul is the plant a legal or illegal plant? Is it heroin poppies?

George Rebane

MikeT 556pm - I will take you at your word about your ability to "tell" what is written and being debated in these pages. The admission does explain a lot.

Steve Enos

Are there two sets of standards for non-profits?

What about the non-profits funded by the Koch Brothers that have just been caught providing money to the Cain campaign?

Will conservatives speak out against this?

Here’s a link to a story that covers the basics of this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/31/news/la-pn-cain-charity-debt-20111031

George Rebane

SteveE - thanks for the heads up on this. Now that this has been discovered, I'm more than sure that the media will buzz it out thoroughly - no rock shall be left unturned. Cain is not above the law.

Todd Juvinall

Maybe SteveE could get the skinny for us all on the trip SteveF took to Mongolia and China. Who paid for it? That sure would help us understand his concerns a bit more since it has been alleged that SteveF used non profit money to campaign against Prop23. .

Mike Thornton

George, if you ever had to go a week without using the words; communist, Muslim or socialist, you'd be mute and unable to write.
You're pretty much a "one trick pony", guy

Todd Juvinall

George, do you here those crickets?

Paul Emery

Todd

Any plant. Who makes those laws?

Greg Goodknight

"GG, you were doing fine and then you had to go off into "imagined reparations for the 3rd world" You guys just can't help throwing out the race card can ya?
Do you really want to talk about what the so-called "First World" has done (and continues to do) to the so-called "Third World"?"

To quote a dead politician who I never voted for, "there you go again!". Sorry Thornton, but when I say "third world" it isn't code for brown people, it's code for 3rd world. The IPCC really was formed to find out how bad CO2 was, and to have the 1st world countries who have burned most of the oil since they started "pumping ethyl" pay reparations to the countries who wish they'd been rich and productive enough to burn as much, aka the 3rd world. It was always about massive transfer payments from the US and Europe to everyone else. Mostly from the US.

Does the IPCC have a wealthy Indian chairman with a railway engineering degree from India and a PhD in Econ from a lower tier Southern US college because of his expertise in climate science?

Thornton, this is about CO2, not retributions for all insults, real and imagined, inflicted upon the 3rd world since the beginning of time. Try to stay on topic.

Greg Goodknight

"GregG - didn't mean to rank Agenda21 type legislation with AGW legislation."

George, you didn't, and I didn't. The "Agenda21 type legislation" was started *because* of the imagined threat from runaway warming triggered by anthropogenic CO2. That *was* the key part of "unsustainable" that was to be reformed. Proximate cause, not equal ranking.

There is plenty of collectivist rot in the world government types, but the non-existent upcoming climate catastrophe is the excuse for much of it, including "Agenda 21".

George Rebane

GregG - AGW and Agenda 21 are both political issues. Agenda 21 started as a political issue and was formally acknowledged as such by heads of state. Agreed that they're related. But I believe that both should also be opposed, no matter where their now considerable tendrils poke up. While AGW is an element of A21, the latter still has a wider scope of public policy desiderata to inhibit freedoms and reduce quality of life. Please excuse my continuing to harp on both.

Greg Goodknight

George, take away the AGW scientific underpinnings and the wind is removed from all of the 'one world government' sails. It is the key issue.

There will still be folks rowing towards their collective one world government dream but they won't have the wind at their backs.

George Rebane

GregG - Agreed. But since they still "have the wind at their backs", they continue sailing toward that global governance by putting in place all the supporting strictures on the Bastiat Triangle. When they get close enough, no doubt AGW will be dispensed with, and replaced with a more existential and forceful push to that benighted shore.

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