The Vocational Technical High School

George Rebane

In today’s Union, James Hinman calls for a new high school in Nevada County that focuses on producing graduates who are able to go directly into the workforce and begin earning a living at a job that can develop into a career path (here)  These pages have long argued that today’s colleges focus on providing its students with expensive, gratuitous meathead degrees that prepare them for very little in real life.  Additionally, we recall that high schools used to prepare young people for the workforce in many highly technical and high paying positions.

I am the beneficiary of such a high school.  Recently I again summarized my experience here in a comment stream –

I believe that shutting down high school shop (occupational) programs was a very big mistake. Especially since they kept a lot of the politically correct crap for curriculum. I took the full course of 'shop classes' in Indiana, and was subsequently able to work summers in industry besides men who were my father's age. In California, I hired on as a draftsman (promoted to designer) on the strength of what I learned in my high school year of drafting. My wages were such that I could have quit school and made a rewarding career, and raised a family on what I learned in high school. Instead, my summer drafting job paid for a physics degree from Univ of Calif. And my story was not unique, high school prepared us for life in those days.

In the past decades high school has become a remedial institution for dysfunctional grade schools, and in the large, college has become a remedial institution for dysfunctional high schools.  The political orientation of teachers and curriculum shares most of the blame for this.  Mr Hinman suggests the formation of a new charter ‘votech’ (my term) high school.

I would like to see this approach discussed, planned, and implemented along a procedural path that sidesteps, as much as possible, the corrupted teaching establishment.  The aim here should be to develop a votech high school that can also serve as a template for other communities similarly motivated - i.e. the proverbial 'movable feast'.  Industry and commerce should be the prime partners (both in planning and funding) in this enterprise.  And no one should expect clear sailing to build such votech schools here or elsewhere.  The progressive elements in Nevada County and across the country will come out swinging against this student and jobs oriented revamp of high schools, for it will shake the very foundation of their long-established sinecures.

Comments

[Todd Juvinall]

Great topic George. If people actually knew what a plumber and a electrician make now there might be a rush to start training tem in school.

[RL Crabb]

Kudos to Jim Hinman, someone who has put his meddle where his mouth is concerning the youth of Nevada County. I still use the tidbits of knowledge I picked up in Eugene Armitage's 8th grade drafting class. (and I still have the branding iron I made in metal shop, although the wife refuses to let me use it.)

[Todd Juvinall]

I took electronics from Mr. Armitage in the old junior high. He was a great guy.

[Russ Steele]

George,

After four tries to post a long comment here, I have posted it on my blog here: http://wp.me/p1NUuI-gP

[Steve Frisch]

I strongly agree that this is a good idea. Congratulations to Mr. Hinman for speaking up. I have long espoused the value of training students who will not attend University for higher skilled jobs through vigorous expansion of vocational education.

[George Rebane]

[This is the comment that Russ Steele 211pm tried to post. Have no idea why it didn't take. gjr]

I am with George. The skills that I learned in shop class have followed me through out my career. I still have the first wood bowl I made in wood shop. I do not have any of my metal shop products, but when Ellen wanted a large wheel clothesline like one my mother had which was crafted from the front forks of a bicycle, I was able to weld one up for her. Our first camper was a home built in a naked Dodge van, using the wood working skills I learned in shop class. When it came time to develop some house plans for current house, I relied on the drafting skills I learned in high school shop, and improved my first year of college engineering. It was my most successful class. Our contractor was totally blown away by my handcrafted house plans, all approved by the County. I will have to admit that some of my handyman skill were learned in 4H, especially the electrical skills.

Right now there is a huge need for graduates that can operate numeric controlled machines and machinist that can produce high tolerance products. I wonder if one of our local manufacturing companies have enough slack that they could provide some hands on experience for VoTech Students.

Charles Litton Sr attended Lick-Willmerding technical high school in San Francisco.

The Technical Arts program is a place where the head, heart, and hands converge, providing opportunities to tackle real world design challenges. Remaining faithful to its century-old history as an innovative institution in the technical arts, Lick offers a unique collection of shop classes. This is an important part of the school’s mission of developing in young people those “qualities of the head, heart, and hands” which will serve them well in college and in life. Lick students learn to work conceptually and physically, moving from theory to practice in order to bring the designs of the mind into the physical world. Technical Arts Department objectives include cross-disciplinary and collaborative learning, skills for engineering, effective problem solving, creative expression, competency in the language of craft and design, and personal empowerment through self-confidence and self-esteem. All advanced courses (e.g., Fabrications 2, Glass 2) can be taken multiple times for credit with the permission of the instructor and when space in the course is available. To enroll in an advanced course, you must have successfully completed the first level course. The school requires all students to take a minimum of four semesters in the Technical Arts. Besides taking Design and Technology (DT1) in the ninth grade, students must choose two other semester-long classes that meet in the shops: Electronics, Fabrications, Glass, Jewelry/Metal Art, or Woodworking.

He had this to say about his experiences in a letter to the Head Master in 1954.

[When] “I look back, it is easy to see that the head/hand program a Lick-Willmerding, contributed a great deal more to my life’s work than did the subsequent university education.” Litton graduated from Stanford as an engineer.

[Greg Goodknight]

Anyone think the NJUHSD is up to the challenge?

Hinman stated "We can turn this around, but not through politics, as that system is broken and until we can find honest people who actually want to help represent all the people, not just the lobbyist for corporations and the wealthy, we can't count on the system to fix anything."

Hinman has a blind spot; there are plenty of elected officials in California who don't represent corporations and the wealthy... they represent the lobbyists paid for by public employee unions in return for gobs of campaign contributions and volunteers when it comes time to get out the vote.

[George Rebane]

GregG 300pm - I was wondering if anyone would pick up Hinman's "blind spot". Maybe I'm wrong, but given his other activities, it does appear that he tilts more toward the side from which union transgressions are invisible.

[Bob W]

Here is my reply on Russ' blog to his comment.

I am sorry to break this to you Russ. Starting out as a trainee in a machine shop producing parts is not the kind of job our young people consider attractive. You really should be able to add and subtract multiply and divide even though we have calculators. Reading prints, following instructions precisely and standing in front of a machine takes patience. The shop floor is not as clean as an office and you can't surf the net very much when you are loading and unloading parts. You can't really be efficient programming parts of you haven't spent time making chips first. You need to were an apron and clothes that you don't expect to keep clean. And oh those work shoes! Tennies won't cut it they get packed with chips and soaked with cutting fluid. And of course there is the noise from the machines. All this for minimum wage to start. Ain't gona happen.

Need to get much hungrier first.

[Todd Juvinall]

To every thing, turn, turn turn. From the Bible and as true today as then. The world is full of different kinds of people and a myriad o skills. I would probably be croaked if someone had not invented a cure for what I had and I bet he needed someone to build his house and make his instruments. In America, everybody has been told for the last forty years you are unworthy if you don't have the plaque on the wall.

[Russ Steele]

Bob W.

I do not disagree The Sierra College machine shop training program was cancelled because the high schools were not generating any candidates, interested or trained in math and print reading. One of my first jobs was a backhoe operator, dirty body jarring work, but it was one of my most satisfying jobs, I could look back and see what I had accomplished each day.

I once ask a very learned man, who was a machinist why he did what he did, when his education would indicate he could be designer or an architect. His answer? It was the joy of turning our a part of higher tolerance than anyone else in the shop, or his customers expected. It was the pride of accomplishment. They do not teach that in school anymore, everyone is a winner.

It is interesting, the when Litton started his business, every Friday afternoon the machine shop had to be cleaned, until there was not a single speck of dust or drop of oil on the machines and you could eat off the floor, according to an oral history recorded by one of his engineers. When they came to work on Monday, it was the cleanest place on the planet. The elimination of contamination was the secret ingredient in Litton products.

[Greg Goodknight]

George, not only does Hinman, of whom I've no prior knowledge, have a blind spot, but his answer to his own question is to create a large, brand new publicly funded entity to solve the problem.

STEM as an acronym is useless as it means different things in the ed biz than it does in real life. If you want better K-12 science and mathematics education, have more principals with science and math backgrounds. Don't expect an ex-jock Principal with a degree in Easy to have a clue when faced with an incompetent math teacher.

[Steve Enos]

YES!!!!

We would benefit greatly from a local Vocational Technical high school and a local, community college level effort too!!!!!

There are many great examples to look at. My brother runs such a program in Humboldt County, Placer County has some programs too that would work here.

[Greg Goodknight]

How much smaller would Nevada Union and Bear River High Schools become to accommodate this new vocational technical high school, Steve?

[Bob W]

Yes! Yes! Yes! More funding! More funding!

[RL Crabb]

Jim used to run the Silver Springs High School (continuation) on McCourtney Road. He also used to be a Marching President, although I don't recall which one.

[Account Deleted]

I'm very sympathetic to the theme of this topic, but the main problem is missed by just a bit. It's true that the elimination of shop classes and the elevation of college prep to be the only route for every little Jimmy and Susie has caused problems. However, what's missing are the basic skills needed for any productive life. They just aren't inside Jimmy's and Susie's brain when they finish school. Note that I said life and not job. We have a good many folk that have acquired skills for making money, but they blow most of their money on junk, scam artists, lying politicians and divorce lawyers. No one should graduate out of high school with out a proven working basic knowledge of: physics - logic - mass communications - how to write a basic set of instructions - loans and interest rates - how a business is started and operated - growing your own food - taking care of a baby or an elderly person. This is in addition to the normal English and math courses. The cost of setting up these courses would be far less than shop classes, and the students would end up with skills that translate to any kind of life or career that is chosen. A machine operator can't fake the numbers. It fits or it doesn't. We turn out oceans of college grads that have learned how to BS their way through and out of school with degrees in 'having good intentions' and 'wanting to do the right thing'. The biggest problem would be finding some one qualified to teach these courses who would also be willing to put up with the current educational system. Ending the monopoly of the public school system would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it seems that's not going to happen any time soon.

[Todd Juvinall]

Hinman. Hmmm. Yes I remember him now. He set me up to debate a SYRCL person when I was running CABPRO back in the 90's. The next day there was a trash CABPRO article with a byline by a reporter who wan;t even there. He did the story. Yep, I remember him now. Sorry if this bursts some bubbles. But I have been known to exhibit forgiveness.

[Walt]

Somehow being someone who prefers to get his hands dirty to make a living is some sort of "second class citizen". If you don't have a sheep skin in a frame, and a nice office chair, your never going to amount to anything in life.( how many times have I heard that from a few people around here?,,ya,,, you know who you are.)
I also have witnessed that just because a person has a piece of paper that says "their smart"( diploma)doesn't make it so.
Their "book smart" ,but practical stupid.

Most people here know I'm a heavy equipment operator. I have been all my life.(despite trying many a differant path, that led me right back.)Yes, it's hard work. Out in the elements.Freeze you butt off in Winter. Fry in the Summer. But guess what? I wouldn't have it any other way. I have done quit well for myself and family, being a "ditch digger". I even have my own home, and good cars.
And never been on welfare. ( that's for Steve..( take your pick which one))

The idea that "everyone" must have a collage degree to get ahead in life is flat wrong. But the collages will be more than happy to put you in debt for half your life. But at least you will get that wall hanger. My trophies are scares, hearing loss, and callouses. Not to mention akes and pains.

But Like Russ said. At the end of the day, you have pride in a job well done. ( well,,, usually that's the case. sometimes s&*t happens,lol)

[Russ Steele]

Yes, Walt I had those days too. We were digging the lateral lines to a town wide sewer systems, and some times we had to dig through an existing septic tank. I found some really pungent cigars to smoke on those days. My worst heavy equipment jobs was pulling plows and disks on a pea farm in Washington. Around and around, just thinking is this what I want to do the rest of my life. Decide not, and joined the Air Force and became an electronics warfare officer. One of the best decision of my life, but when I see a giant earth mover parked along side the road, I get urges to hop onboard fire is up, and rumble across the field.

[Greg Goodknight]

Russ, my two jobs that convinced me there was a better way to make a living were printing telephone directories in a factory pressroom (pay was pretty good and there were a number of folks with a significant post baccalaureate education operating the presses and managing the operation) and teaching algebra as a teacher's aide at a middle school. Kids were great but the staff were not the folks I'd want to spend a career with. Nice people but on the average, not the brightest.

[George Rebane]

My motivation to give school all I had was working as a stoop labor field hand on an Indiana truck farm during summers cutting asparagus and picking tomatoes - temperature 98F with humidity to match.

[bill tozer]

Learned to arc weld in 7th grade. First thing I made in metal shop was a church key bottle opener. Learned to make molds in sand, melted down lead from batteries and made little Kon Tiki dolls. It was a start. Later I learned if you stacked bricks just the right way and pumped acetylene under them and then threw in a spark one could blow up the whole welding booth. Those skills stayed with me as time to time I found work in foundries and pattern shops working with brass and aluminum making everything from chair lift wheels to irrigation couplings to aluminum heads for racing water craft, and of course, occasionally blowing something up. Pulled into a city one day and walked passed a foundry. I looked in watching the workers sweat and a white collar guy came out. The boss was shocked that I could run a specific core machine he purchased but sat idle cause no one knew how to run it properly. He offered me a job on the spot. I turned it down cause I was passing through. Later I read in the national news that the whole building blew up when they were melting down spent artillery shells and got a few live ones in the pile. Besides, the greenies have shut down most of them down in the West, but it all started in 7th grade.

[bill tozer]

you guys can design all the cities and buildings and grids til hell freezes over, but it is all just paper until someone builds the cities, buildings, grids, and puts heat in the homes. But, it is prudent to know how to change a flat, lol.

[Steve Frisch]

What curriculum would modern vocational education focus on? I am assuming some basic STEM studies, but are there specific rising specialized skills people have in mind? Is leadership and entrepreneurial studies a potential vocational training area as well? How about basic financial and business management literacy?

What would you include in the curriculum?

[Russ Steele]

I think that Lick-Wilmerding would be good model to follow. See my post above for some details. Here is a link to their web site: http://www.lwhs.org/default.aspx

[Russ Steele]

I tried to post a comment on this Glenn Reynolds column this morning, but again my post vanished. Check out Glenn views on the education bubble, which is just like the housing bubble here: http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2011/12/sunday-reflection-higher-ed-bubble-bursting-so-what-comes-next/1969376#ixzz1fZwCmAiy

[Steve Frisch]

Russ, did you notice that full tuition at Lick-Wilmerding for the 2015 year is $35K?

[Russ Steele]

Steve,

No, your question was about the curriculum. My introduction to the schools was during my investigation of Charles Litton Sr background and education. He held the school in very high regard, crediting it with his success.

[Steve Frisch]

Seriously Russ, I was just wondering--they do have sliding scale tuition, and it appears a rather large endowment that allows them to exercise that scale liberally. I'm going through the curriculum right now and it looks great.

[bill tozer]

amazing what they teach in school http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/teacher-ruins-santa-claus-for-second-graders/2173343639/Comcast/2172727619/

[Greg Goodknight]

"What curriculum would modern vocational education focus on? I am assuming some basic STEM studies, but are there specific rising specialized skills people have in mind? Is leadership and entrepreneurial studies a potential vocational training area as well? How about basic financial and business management literacy?"

Perfect. The term that means whatever the user means.

Frisch, what do you think "basic STEM studies" are?

[Greg Goodknight]

Let me be the first one to note that there will not be a new vocational technical high school built in Nevada County. There are already two high schools, no growth and, iirc, shrinking budgets along with a shrinking student body.

There are also no businesses who are unable to grow and thrive because of a lack of entry level workers.

Vocational ed has been short sheeted by the education bureaucracy for many decades. Even in the late '60's, my father had started a partnership with the Baker's union and industrial baking companies in Bell Gardens (the dominant businesses in the area) that the state Dept of Ed quashed because it wasn't college prep. Most of the kids there had fairly bleak futures (iirc, at the time Bell Gardens had the highest percentage in the state of ex-convicts residing in the city limits), and work study leading to entry level union jobs would have been a boon for many.

It's time the local high school district brought vocational ed back in the comprehensive high schools that have long failed to be comprehensive. It's also time for the plethora of alternative high schools (stand alone or the artificial 'school within a school' constructs) that seem only to serve as places to move kids at risk to before they drop out or ruin the test scores of the two big schools. Two comprehensive high schools and one continuation high school should be enough for our small area.

[Steve Frisch]

Greg, I guess it depends upon whether it is being taught as part of a vocational program or at the university level, but some basic components would be: Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Biochemistry, Robotics, a wide variety of information technology studies like Information and Support Services-Network Systems-Programming- probably multiple levels of Algebra-Calculus-Statistics-Trigonometry, Geometry, the list could be pretty extensive. If it was vocational I would think you would focus on specific job skills, like mechanical design, mechanical engineering, mechatronics, maintenance, installation, repair, quality assurance...etc. But I would imagine that a lot of the future jobs would not be manufacturing based so I suspect there is a whole world of other skills out there that would be beneficial.

Really, I was asking you guys what you thought would be most valuable and why? How do we align the studies with the skills necessary in the work force 10-30 years from now? which studies would be most valuable for developing critical thinking skills necessary for adaptability in the future?

[Todd Juvinall]

When I think of Vocational I think of welders, metal worker, mechanics, mostly those professions which use one's hands. The list Frisch placed above are things already taught as regular classes. One only needs to read Russ's and George's post here to understand what s being discussed. Amazing.

Greg is correct we will not be building any new structures in the near or distant future for vocation ed. We could use the space being vacated by students of parents who can't make a living here since the no growth community has won the war over the years. Lots of room coming available.

[Steve Frisch]

I am asking a serious question without prejudice. The first sentence Todd posted was helpful, the rest was par for the course.

[Russ Steele]

I have serious doubts that we could revere the current attitudes at NU and Bear River. It would have to be a Charter School started with the help of the local manufacturing companies that would directly benefit from the graduates. It might become part of an ROP program, which currently has a Introduction to Design and Engineering Course, but it is only offered at Colfax High School.

More details here: http://placercoe.k12.ca.us/StudentsandParents/Pages/49erROPCourse_DesignAndConstruction.aspx?dept=rop

However, this course is focused on wood working and not metal shop where the demand is for CNC Operators, Welders and Lathe opeators.

Course description
Students will investigate various aspects of the design, construction, and manufacturing fields, with special emphasis on wood shop skills. Students will use tools and technologies of the construction trade to design and build various wood projects. This course will prepare students for life-long learning and for future construction, design, and engineering careers as they continue their studies in technical or university programs.

We used ROP Studentst at NCCN when we were a start up as tech support people, mainly answering the phone, but some were schooled in PCs enought to help many people. That said the quality of the students varied from serious to dick-offs who were just avoiding a class room. We had to fire the slackers them and send them packing.

[Bob W]

When I read ether Steve's writings I chuckle. Their comments are an exposé of what the core problem is.

"Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Biochemistry, Robotics, Programming- probably multiple levels of Algebra-Calculus-Statistics-Trigonometry, Geometry"

How about Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic?

Let's get that back and I think the rest may start to fall in place. As far as the practical experience part goes, A little more emphasis on self dependency should kick it off just fine. This is evident when you go back and read the personal accounts of how commenters here attained their various practical skills.

[Greg Goodknight]

Steve, maybe you haven't noticed but a major problem in US K-12 education in general (and California in particular) is that it's a mile wide and an inch deep. Rather than mediocrity in a few areas, it's mediocre to worse in even more areas. Your grab bag is indicative of how it got there.

There is a math sequence, as much mathematics is dependent upon prior knowledge. Pre-algebra is the catch all for K-7 arithmetic. If you can't manipulate fractions appropriately, you're not going to be successful in a real algebra class. You might be OK in geometry.

Last time I looked there was a real physics class being taught at NUHS that required some math competence (trig?), and a general science class called Physics at BRHS that was appropriate to a 9th grader who hasn't yet seen Algebra II. Which is it?

A high school awarding a high school diploma still needs to ensure a student has met all the state standards for that diploma, and a strength of the American comprehensive high school over the gymnasium/hauptschule (sp?) of the German model is that there is room for a late bloomer to jump on the college prep track and for a kid who is on the college prep track to discover a passion for a vocational art that might be right for them.

"Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Biochemistry, Robotics, a wide variety of information technology studies like Information and Support Services-Network Systems-Programming" - this is a kilometer wide and a millimeter deep, nor is the certificated teacher corps competent in these subjects. Madness, not a blueprint for vocational education.

We need the existing schools to be better, not a hail mary pass to set up something new. Engineers tend to denigrate the BSO (bright shiny objects) that tend to draw marketers to demand developments that don't really make sense, often just an idea. This new 'technical vocational high school' idea is just a BSO distracting us from a rational path forward.

Todd is correct about shop classes. Auto shop is another. Cars still need fixing and while the classic "fuel, compression, spark" is still key and from what I see in the aftermath of my recent accident, classic body working skills are still in use in our repair shops.

Russ may be right, that the NJUHSD isn't capable of fixing what they have, but there just isn't the money to duplicate what already exists there.

[George Rebane]

My two cents on the general curriculum outline for votech courses that distinguish a votech high school from the run-of-the-mill (ROTM) tends toward skills that involve dexterous manipulation, spatial reasoning, and working with materials that have special preparation/handling requirements. I’m trying to think of what tasks will humans still be in demand for during the next, say, ten to twenty pre-Singularity years. The listed skill areas will most likely be mastered late by machines, hence good paying jobs will still be available for competitive humans (I’m trying to avoid the ‘John Henry’ type competitions which humans are losing today in droves).

I also agree that votech high schools must bring their students up to grade level in reading, writing, and arithmetic, something that ROTM schools have had no apparent requirement to do for some time now. Being literate and also able in basic math have to be arrows in the quiver of every votech graduate. The lists of advanced courses, if offered and taught by semi-capable teachers, will indeed provide more of the same “mile wide inch deep” curriculum cited by GregG. The stuff only looks good in a school catalog or brochure to the unaware parent.

Western countries, IMHO, will have to produce workers from the available IQ spectrum of their raw material entrants. This limits the fraction of graduates from whatever level who are able to master the broad and sufficiently deep knowledge bases required for future creative work. Most of the students would do well to master carefully chosen narrow and deep subject areas – e.g. welding with exotic gases or in complex environments, or web programming using the ever evolving most capable/popular two or three languages. A main attribute of all the skill sets of such workers is the absence of repetitive operations which are usually the next victims of the ever smarter and dexterous robots.

In this light we must also anticipate the transfer of, say, the three skill areas first mentioned to totally new domains. An example of this is to transfer them from the everyday macro environments to nano environments in which the votech educated human will work with the so-called MAM (machine augmented man) systems which are already in some workplaces. The bottom line is to also be able to do broken field running through a field of skills during the working years; changing/adapting to nearby extensions or acquiring new skills as machine abilities make their seemingly random and unpredictable advances.

[Todd Juvinall]

SteveF's response is accurately portrayed by BobW. There is a great divide in just about every phase of life and business in America. I would guess SteveF would not take his Volvo to a brain surgeon for repairs just as he would not take his brain to an auto mechanic. Both are necessary professions but trained in totally different ways. BobW is correct as well regarding the three R's. How do we expect any kid to move forward without the basic foundation? Our country has to retool and with unions in charge and politicians in the teachers unions pockets, I don't see it happening.

Ironically, over the years, starting with my BOS experience listening to testimony at public hearings, I can tell you this. I listened to a lot of counter culture folks say they were very educated and had degrees but moved here and worked a a waiter or whatever. They said they took the pay cut to live in a beautiful place. I wondered each time what their parents must have thought about the waste of their money educating these people.

As usual SteveF tries to pick a fight but I am not biting today. Maybe morrow.

[Todd Juvinall]

BTW, Newt Gingrich sure got the liberals undies in a wad as he described the lack of skills of our young. Get drugs and X-Box skills out of their hands and they are total dunces.

[Greg Goodknight]

"I also agree that votech high schools must bring their students up to grade level in reading, writing, and arithmetic, something that ROTM schools have had no apparent requirement to do for some time now. Being literate and also able in basic math have to be arrows in the quiver of every votech graduate."

This is primarily a problem in the K-8 schools. If a student arrived at high school at grade level, they would just about be ready to pass the high school exit exam already. All too often students arrive in high school way behind in literacy and numeracy, and the high school that fails to advance them 8 years in only 4 gets all the blame for their shortcomings.

[George Rebane]

I agree, but it is what it is GregG. Nevertheless, votech high schools turning out the current rate of illiterates will not make them competitive in the workplace. In the new educational paradigm discussed here, we recall that graduating from a votech is essentially the end of the young person's formal education. S/he doesn't have the opportunity for remediation at the college level.

[Bob W]

As an illustration if not an attempt to satirize the subject of basic skills that our education system should be held responsible for.

When my daughter was in her first year of college and during a discussion I was having with her at the dinner table, about one of her friends, and my father and uncle were present. I was commenting on how she and I differ in the manner we might evaluate someone's education level. My daughter was under the impression that her friend, after graduating from NUHS, was as she described "really smart". I explained that I hadn't been referring to how "smart" he might be but rather how educated I perceived him to be. My daughter attended only one year of public school, that being the 4th grad and quite regressive. As an example I explained to my daughter that this friend of hers probably didn't have the math skills that she did. My daughter challenged me on the premise. My response was to ask if this friend of hers could do long division. Both my father and uncle immediately turned their attention to my daughter's reply. The silence was deafening! After a short but paused consideration, my daughter being accustom to an occasional challenge from me, replied, "does that mean that a boy should know long division before I consider making him a friend"? Having an opportunity, during her pause, to formulate my response, and of course based on her pause, I was able to immediately confirm "that yes, that would be a good starting point"! Needless to say the reaction from my father and uncle was priceless!

And so from then on every time my daughter told me about a new friend of course she would confirm that he indeed could do long division.

[Greg Goodknight]

"I have serious doubts that we could revere the current attitudes at NU and Bear River. It would have to be a Charter School started with the help of the local manufacturing companies that would directly benefit from the graduates. It might become part of an ROP program, which currently has a Introduction to Design and Engineering Course, but it is only offered at Colfax High School."

Russ, that reminds me of Terry McAteer's (our former County Ed maven) Bright Shiny Object, manual assembly jobs which he called "assemblage". Real high tech stuff. It's the only local job that he could find to try to justify his vision for technical education driven by local jobs..

George (3:01PM) remediation at the high school will always be with us, but the basic problems need correction at the source. With the worst of the whole math whole language curriculums dead and buried things are a bit better, but we still have a teacher corps that pulls too many from the bottom of the college barrel, and that isn't getting better.

[George Rebane]

GregG - of course I agree and have not argued against any "correction at the source" proposition. All I said was that whatever the K-8 input is to a votech, such a school must adopt as one of its prime objectives to remediate illiteracy, based on the fact that its graduates go directly into the workforce. And as you infer, that job will not be done perfectly for a number of reasons. Nevertheless, for the success of the votech paradigm, such remediation has to be adopted as a necessary (but obviously not a sufficient) pedagogical objective.

[Walt]

Just for the sake of discussion, lets say I wanted to open a heavy equipment training center right here in Nev. Co. Five acres would probably do the trick. ( but more is always better)
Yes, it sounds good. But it probably would catch as much heat as IMM, and take just as long to open. From " the type of people that it would attract" to " it would foul the environment" would be the local reasoning to keep it out of here. ( and of course zoning)

[Bob W]

OK Walt now you have really brought it home. In reality your proposal makes much more sense than training in manufacturing. Your proposal would attract the attention of many more young people than machine shop or some other production related vocation. But the best part would be the way this would change the thinking of these young individuals that got involved. This would give them an opportunity to be involved in accomplishing something they could physically see and witness. And in doing so it would initiate the thought process they need to start understanding what components are involved that they were never aware of. That in itself would kick most of them off into a direction maybe they never even imagined before. Understand, they would have to find out what came before they started moving dirt and in turn they would start thinking about what would follow. Much more prescient than the "intellectuals" would think or even want to admit.

[George Rebane]

Ok Walt 441pm - Great expansion of the concept of educating young people for productive jobs without having to go to college. Also, as BobW hints, please specify what kind of educational background would such an earth moving school require of its applicants.

[Russ Steele]

Here are two schools that offer the heavy equipment training, post highschool, one in Southern CA and one in the Valley:

Rio Hondo Community College's Heavy Equipment Training Programs

Rio Hondo Community College (RHCC) is a 2-year public school located in Whittier, California. The college offers heavy equipment training through the career and technical education department. Nearly 21,000 students attend RHCC to pursue a variety of certificates and associate degrees.

San Joaquin Delta College's Heavy Equipment Training Programs

San Joaquin Delta College (SJDC) is a 2-year, public college located in Stockton, California. More than 20,000 students attend classes at SJDC's various campuses, including the Manteca Center in Manteca, California and the South Campus at Mountain House in Tracy, and the main campus in Stockton. SJDC offers a certificate of achievement program for heavy equipment mechanics and heavy equipment technicians, as well as an associate's degree in heavy equipment technology.

[Greg Goodknight]

"I also agree that votech high schools must bring their students up to grade level in reading, writing, and arithmetic, something that ROTM schools have had no apparent requirement to do for some time now."

I think something of a "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" needs to be remembered. No school "must" cause someone to learn to read or to factor fiendishly difficult quadratic equations. It still takes a motivated student to make it happen.

Schools aren't required to be successful with any particular student, one of the reasons parents should have choice over where their children's education takes place. The family has to live with the educational outcome, the school doesn't.

[George Rebane]

Agreed GregG. "... must bring their students ..." is meant in the aggregate, else close the school as an unnecessary expense to society.

[Walt]

Nothing real special George, High school diploma, GED,( Spanish is almost required these days if you catch my drift)and some common sense. But most important, knowing what they are getting into.
Some people can pick this up rather quickly, others not so fast, some ,not at all.
There are so many differant "jobs" that operators may fins their way into. From the local dump to aerospace. It's not all roads and housing developments.

BTW,,, I hope my work still has your approval, and is holding up well.

[George Rebane]

Walt - beautiful job, it'll last more than a lifetime (at least mine) ;-)

[Walt]

Thanks Mr.R. If you had said otherwise, I would have been out there with a rake and shovel before noon to fix what went South. ( since I no longer have access to equipment. It was all sold at auction.)

[Greg Goodknight]

Russ, your mention of Rio Hondo brought me a smile... back when I was in high school, loosely attached to Rio Hondo College was the Rio Hondo Symphony (having played in both, I'd say they were roughly equivalent to the Auburn Symphony) and the Rio Hondo Youth Symphony. I got into the adult symphony when a high school junior, 3rd trumpet behind two music teachers. I think that first concert included Dvorak's New World and Franck's D minor symphonies. Neat stuff for a kid, but I remember one of the hardest things (besides the transpositions) to do were to accurately count hundreds of measures of rests... some composers just didn't want to hear trumpets very often.

I was asked to sub in the youth symphony once, they were short their 1st trumpet. I was introduced to the group (peers in age) as a friend in the adult symphony from Montebello High (the next district to the West from most of them) to some gasps... the first time I felt like a pro from Dover. One rehearsal, then concert. They were remarkably good for a youth group, back in the days before school music programs had hit rock bottom.

This reminds me, music remains a viable career choice. Vocational. Youse guys should accept that. Music in the schools may just be a diversion that leaves a student with some arts appreciation to the majority, but others go on to actually earning a living. More kids take that route than get into pro sports. But guess what? Most kids who take math don't become mathematicians or scientists, either.

[Bob W]

George, I think what you might have been referring to by my hint was the engineering that precedes the dirt moving else which dirt where? And then the realization that the intent is to transform natural into dedicated sculpture. The "follows" refers to what the sculpture is engineered to support starting with a foundation or base and so forth which of course is another entire litany of expertise, skills and professions. All this being an ideal presentation of accomplishment, productivity, and the resultant gratification.

[George Rebane]

BobW 926am - would like to respond, but don't know to which comments of yours and mine you are referring. Using comment time tags as their labels helps, especially when the comment stream is long and contains multiple threads.

[George Rebane]

GregG 909am - Do you have any idea about what fraction of professional musicians have jobs that must be supported by government or private foundation grants? Maybe PaulE, being a producer and pro musician, has this data.

[Greg Goodknight]

"what fraction of professional musicians have jobs that must be supported by government or private foundation grants?"

Must be supported by government grants? Not a one.

Are supported by private foundations? Many more, but even the greats had patrons. That the wealthy and groups of the not all that wealthy choose to support arts that aren't as commercially viable as the Madonna du jour is none of anyone's business but their own.

[Bob W]

George it was the 4th 5:48PM.

[George Rebane]

GregG 1024am - You seem to be circling the wagons on this one - no attack imminent from me. However, the feds (and even some states) have long supported the performing arts with grants. Classical music has been a longtime recipient of public monies from sources like the National Endowment of the Arts.
http://theperformingartsalliance.org/site/PageServer?pagename=importance_federal_funding_arts

The answer to my question was intended to frame thoughts about encouraging young people to enter the musical and other performing arts fields through public schools programs.

BobW 1053am - Agreed. But even though that there might be some pretty fancy prep work required, say in soil engineering, that is beyond the ken of the dirt moving students, I wouldn't ask them to master that, only to appreciate it before they start the engine of their dirt mover.

[Greg Goodknight]

George, no circling of the wagons here. The operative word you chose to use there was "must". If you meant "are", that is a bit more, though in SoCal where I grew up there was lots of commercial work for film, tv and radio. Less after one protracted strike in the '80's that the union "won" but not before a lot of producers found they could get the same work done cheaper and just about as good elsewhere.

All in all I'd expect government supports fewer musicians by percentage than anthropologists or sociologists.

[George Rebane]

GregG 1219pm - Before moving to NC, we were lifelong residents of SoCal - my wife as a third generation native and I since teen years - and we supported the local classical music scene by memberships and attendance. I'm glad you brought up my use of "must", because that was exactly my intention. Through the years, we constantly heard, especially on NPR outlets, of this or that ensemble, group, chorale, quartet, and even symphony orchestra shutting down or cancelling seasons because they had lost or had their *government* funding reduced.

I'm not sure that such vicissitudes visit the pop scene (except maybe cowboy poetry readings in Nevada) as much. But a lot of talented young musicians arriving at early adulthood seem surprised at how hard it is to earn a living as a musician, and many have to take a day job in order to pursue their first love.

How should public policy address such a cultural issue for musicians of a distinct bent (funding their training, funding their work), especially since the industry derives its income from the discretionary spending part of its customers' budgets?

[Greg Goodknight]

George, to take what you're suggesting to its logical conclusion, why take any tax receipt to train any kid to do anything? If you want your kid to be able to read, do it yourself or you pay for someone else to do it.

While it can be argued that individuals and communities did that pretty well before the Ed Biz became the largest single expenditure of the formerly great State of California, that isn't what we have now and it's a big loser politically. To argue over that may make you feel good but it is counterproductive.

[Douglas keachie]

Well George and others, we all know the schools were asked to cut expenses to save on taxes, by the 1%'ers and their lackeys. Now you are reaping the rewards. Shop programs were very expensive, and finding qualified teachers led SF Unified to offer a 7 year boost up the pay scale for potential vocational teacher who would then have to give up their more lucrative private practices. Yes Virginia, some private sector jobs pay more than the public sector ones.

Given the wonderful economy resulting from the job creating Bush tax cuts, we now have 2,200 homeless students in SFUSD alone, out of 55,000 students. That means on average every classroom has one homeless student in it, complete with all that entails. It is more difficult to teach a student who is hungry and cold, and had no safe place to do homework and then get back to a makeshift shelter.

How much of the country will become homeless before the 1% realize they have made a very, very bad miscalculation?

On reading levels and potato chips, I give you, and especially Greg: http://www.insidebayarea.com/oakland-tribune/ci_19469388

[Douglas keachie]

As long as they'll bring in some top soil, I have easily 5 acres to spare that could be flatterned as smooth as a baby's bottom, and trenched, and whatever else needs to be learned. I'm sure many property owners would be open to such a deal, as long as liability is totally taken care of by the school.

[Douglas keachie]

On machining, try this on for size:

http://michiganradio.org/post/lights-out-machining-you-go-home-machines-keep-working

[George Rebane]

GregG 128pm - I'm not inclined to travel on that track of logic, because heading in the opposite direction would recommend spending public monies to also teach kids to flatulate in key and perform the national anthem at sporting events (cf Mr Methane the flatulist and his 19th century predecessor Le Petomane). I think we may reasonably define the bounds of skill sets benefiting society in the aggregate that should be candidates for public funding.

DougK 132pm - welcome back. And what a delightfully simple world you again show us. With union stuffed administrators now outnumbering dysfunctional teachers in our schools, all we need is more money to be thrown at it. Taxing the vilified '1%' is no doubt the long-sought solution. From your mouth to God's ear.

[Douglas keachie]

Not sure what a "union stuffed administrator" is? The administrators have their own union, separate form the teachers and staff in SFUSD.

We represent administrators in the San Francisco Unified School District.

The United Administrators of San Francisco (UASF) is the official union organization charged with ensuring the equitable treatment and professional well being of its members by working to promote employment conditions that enable supervisory administrators of the school district to operate effectively.

UASF is responsible for developing and providing professional services and activities to promote the success of its membership.

UASF will represent, advocate and defend the rights and collective interest of its membership.

UASF, Local No. 3, is affiliated with American Federation of School Administrators AFL-CIO.

Contact us at:
United Administrators of San Francisco, Local 3 – AFL-CIO
P.O. Box 31940
San Francisco, CA 94131

And George, what do you find so delightfully simple minded about lights out machining? And just what simple solution, (final solution? i should hope NOT!) do you have for the homeless that are piling up on our nation's underpasses? if you close your eyes do they all just disappear?

[Douglas keachie]

Good luck getting teachers for your heavy equipment school, at beginning teachers' salaries, and good luck getting the funding to pay for such a school, even if concerned citizens like myself make major donations of spots to run the school.

[George Rebane]

DougK 217pm - never commented on "lights out machining". How did we get to solutions for the homeless??

However, your 221pm lament is worthy of discussion. You clearly are implying that high school teachers in California are paid too little.

[Douglas keachie]

I am clearly implying, and have previously indicated, that to get someone with both teaching and heavy equipment skills, you will have to pay more than what a first year teacher normally gets in California.

[Douglas keachie]

BTW, my name is Keachie, Doug keachie.

[Douglas keachie]

Typing without glasses again, "Keachie, Doug Keachie."

[Mikey McD]

Moonbeam thinks more money to school and fewer CA employers = solution.

Dear Employers,
Please leave California. Go On, Get!
Signed, Governor Brown.

http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2011/12/05/jerry-brown-files-ballot-initiative-for-higher-taxes/

[George Rebane]

DougK 255pm - Apologies Doug, I have corrected my thoughtless fingers.

I think that requiring heavy equipment operator teachers to qualify also as California classroom teachers is a gratuitous application of bureaucracy to keep the teachers union happy. As a university lecturer, Army instructor, and having qualified to teach in California's high schools, I know and have practiced the drill. The bigger problem is that heavy equipment operators may get paid more at the commercial schools offering such instruction.

But I bet that you and I can get together with an experienced operator (maybe Walt here) and fairly quickly develop the pedagogical side of what has to happen during the course of such instruction. To make any headway toward a local votech school will require end-running as much of the establishment as possible.

[Bob W]

I have been letting my machine run at night while I was away for 20 years now and others have been doing the same for over 30. Nothing new here. It all depends on what you are running. Yes CNC has eliminated more man hours than it has created. This would only be a surprise to someone who is typically cooped up in an office. It is very common for someone not familiar with the myriad of machining specialties to over simplify any of these processes. Just verifies that they haven't a clue.

[Russ Steele]

When I visited Innovative Metals plant, they are now gone, they had robot cutting machines that ran all night long. The machine grabed a sheet of steel and cut our the patterns that had been programs into it, stacked the parts, and then grabed another sheet of metal. Worked 24/7 as long as it had sheets of metal to grab according to my guide. At the time they were buidling the moving assembly racks that Dell Computer was using to assemble computers. They were looking to move as the cost of shipping in metal sheets and out finished product was too high here in the foothills.

[Bob W]

Lights out.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20070314/NEWS/103140173&parentprofile=search

[bill tozer]

Guess it all depends on the instructor. Kinda like a good teacher/mentor in any field. If there were only more "Dead Poets Society" types out there, our schools would be much better. When I started to settle down after a very prolonged childhood, a local guy here encouraged me to get into welding. He was finishing his career as a union welder which took him to nuclear plants on the East Coast and hospitals on the West Coast. Made 6 figures and had months off and generous benefits. He said "Don't take the welding course at Sierra College (Rocklin). The instructor there does not know what he is doing." In college, one favorite business professor would point to the book and tell us what sections were pure BS. He reminded us that the texts were written by Ivory League doctorates who had not been in the field in 30 years and don't know how the real world operates today. Then he would share his experience and were told the proper procedures in the current age. A good auto technician course with the best mechanics costs about 36k for their 18 month program. But, the grads are superior techs, not mediocre. My niece recently wanted to be a journalist of all things. She moved to Boston to be an understudy/intern for some Pulitzer Prize author and is doing research for his next novel. Now, the little country girl is hired full time by the Boston Globe writing general interest stories for the past year. Yes, I know they say print is a dying, low paid field, but I say follow your dreams. Point is without good instructors/mentors, our younger generation will be cursed with the same old sub par products as evidenced by what our public school system churns out year after year. And noooo, DougK, throwing more money at out of touch uninspiring teachers will not solve anything. My name is Bill Tozer and I endorse this message.

[Bob W]

Look, honestly this isn't as it appears. When conditions reach a point, and I have no idea when that may be, where there is a need in industry then industry will fill it. Industry never needed the government to get involved. Industry has always prospered the most when government kept out of the way. There are a few exceptions. These are very few and when there is a role for government it usually is indisputable.

Need will arise out of desperation of those on the lower income scale. That is when this will turn around. Don't hold your breath!

[Douglas keachie]

Throwing more homeless students and students from homes that devalue education and in particular declare all public school teachers to be out of touch and uninspiring, sure isn't going to improve the educational system either.

How much damage has been done by all the drum drum drum mindless chanting of "evil teachers with evil unions" as illustrated typically by control freak parents born one too many times and wanting to make J. C. the number one topic in the curriculum and get paid to do it to boot?

APPARENTLY SOMEONE FORGOT TO TEACH THAT 2007 NEWSTORY ROBOT HOW TO SHUT ITSELF OFF...

[Douglas keachie]

tHE CHARTER SCHOOLS MOVEMENT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR WELL OVER TWENTY YEARS BY NOW. That's plenty of time in which to find and identify and REWARD those OUTSTANDING teachers that the right is forever declaring to exist, somewhere over the rainbow.

If such teachers are really and truly valuable, then surely the best schools are competing for them, and university would be paying terrific fees to study the outstanding techniques of such teacher.

So, find me ONE teacher, just ONE teacher, K-12, that is making over $200,000/year from teaching. can't do it, can you?

Alternatively, find me ONE teacher, just ONE teacher, K-12, that is making more than their 'superior." Can't do that ewither, can you? merit pay it total BS and DOES NOT EXIST and NEVER WILL.

[Douglas Keachie]

So Bob W, just how do you expect this to play out?

"Need will arise out of desperation of those on the lower income scale. That is when this will turn around. Don't hold your breath!"

15% of the country is living below the poverty level. The are 5 applicants for every job. So when the bottom gets totally desperate, they then break the law, go to trial, and then off to prison, at a cost of $42,000/year each? If just 4.5 million of the 45 million belkow the poverty line did this, that would be roughly $180,000,000,000 nationwide, every year.

Smart plan, what's NEXT!

[Bob W]

Keachie you have so little of a clue what realty is and are so incapable of accepting it that there is absolutely no point in even trying to educate you on it.

Besides the point that I would think less of myself by attempting it.

My comments are not meant for you believe me!

[Russ Steele]

Keachie, what does living below the poverty line really mean? Here are some discussion points:

• For decades, the U.S. Census Bureau has reported that over 30 million Americans were living in “poverty,” but the bureau’s definition of poverty differs widely from that held by most Americans.

• In fact, other government surveys show that most of the persons whom the government defines as “in poverty” are not poor in any ordinary sense of the term.

• The typical poor household, as defined by the government, has a car and air conditioning, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR. If there are children,
especially boys, the family has a game system, such as an Xbox or PlayStation.

• In the kitchen, the household has a refrigerator, an oven and stove, and a microwave.
Other household conveniences include a clothes washer, clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a
cordless phone, and a coffee maker.

• The home of the typical poor family is in good repair and is not overcrowded. In fact,
the typical average poor American has more living space in his home than the average
(non-poor) European has.

• By its own report, the typical poor family was not hungry, was able to obtain medical care when needed, and had sufficient funds during the past year to meet all essential needs.

More here: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

[Douglas Keachie]

I can buy one of each and every item on the household amenities list for under $1,000, in today's thrift store and yard sale environment. What a strange mind that rates poverty by household amenities possessed.

You might better ask, how many hours of the day can you walk safely to and from a school or library, if you are girl, of whatever age range you care to identify? How quiet is the neighborhood and household. Is there a place to study in the household? How much hot water is available for showers? How come there are still lots of ghetto laundromats, if all these households have washers and dryers? How come these kids show up early for food at the school? How wonderful is it to know your parents/caretakers will never have a dime for college?

Poverty sucks, get used to it.

[Douglas Keachie]

Rebane at 3:39. I seem to recall that they would take people without regular teaching credentials, and let them take several years at full pay to take night classes at the District's expense, to get a credential. That's how I got my Community College credential, credit for profession experience in photography, and they didn't even bother to make me take classes, but that was above K-12, they may have had more discretion.

[bill tozer]

I suppose to some, having 40 acres and a mule is being a 1%er. To others, the evil rich are those that make double what they make in their chosen field. Has nothing to do with choices I suppose. To me, anybody that owns a washer and dryer is either rich or spoiled.

[Walt]

3:39,,George,, There is no real "book" to learn the trade. Every operator develops his own "style" ( for lack of a better term ).
People can be trained to make a machine do what they want it to do within it's limitations.
For the sake of discussion(again) a "tractor school" we start would
produce apprentice class operators.( hopefully better than that)
They would know the basics. Do they want to learn one piece of equipment? or ten? Some tractors take longer to get the hang of.
Safe operation will be the priority. Working around people on the ground, etc. Current safety procedures when working near gas, and power. ( I'm sure PG&E would send one of their own for that class. In Nevada that class is two days all by it self)
Like I said. Apprentice level is what to shoot for. The less classroom time, the better. This is truly hands on learning.

A real good example of a heavy equipment school to emulate is the military's training center at Ft. LeonardWood MO. ( just so happens I am a graduate from there. They wanted to keep me as an instructor. I respectfully declined. The Winters there truly sucked, and they don't call it Fort Lostinthewoods for nothing)

Keach, if you really want to get the most out of your Kabota, let me know.. ( for a fee of corce.LOL)

[Douglas Keachie]

Walt, at over 2,500 hours in the seat, countless "got stuck" and releases, moving a boulder or two weighing twice the weight of the tractor, shoving small structures into place, trenches, postholes, brushhog, roads, etc., I've self taught quite a bit. At this point we are stretched, doing a fixer, or I'd take you up on that. Frank Jones (ex-PG&E) taught me quite a bit when I first got the tractor.

[Douglas Keachie]

We own a washer and a dryer, but we do not use tthe dryer. Better to hang up clothes, outdoors or in.

[Walt]

OK, so you got a little time under your belt. I quit counting hours long ago. If I recall you lost the last pissing match you just had to get into. I will pass on this one. But I will say that I have done a thing or two that most didn't have the balls to do, and live to tell the tail. Ever hear the term " Yo-YO"? Two dozers, one cliff,one cable and pulley.That's the one comes to mind first.
What the hell,,,, Piss away.(lol)

[Greg Goodknight]

Don't Feed the Keachies.

[Douglas Keachie]

No PIZZA for Greggie.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6464376987/in/photostream/lightbox/

[Greg Goodknight]

George, the only instrument that resembles the letting of foul air is the bassoon, and there aren't many high schools that have one in their bands.

Really, George, music and fine arts are not the reason for the shape schools are in, and they don't provide training sufficient to make a living at it, and never have. However, it does provide enough experience for a potential musician to discover their talent, and that is appropriate for schools.

Music is a plus for the individuals in the program and for the school. You don't know what suffering for one's craft means until you've played Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance with enough repeats to cover 1000 names being read one by one.

[Douglas Keachie]

I count the hours to make sure I change the oil and filter every 100 hours, or rather the hour meter does it for me. Lube every ten hours, all points of major pressure. Nearly killed myself during first 50 hours, Became very respectful after that and got a tilt meter, and learned that tractor may be four wheel drive, but they are only two rear wheels when it come to brakes. Overload the front bucket on the level, be in two wheel drive, go down a hill, rear wheels lift off the ground, and ZOOOOM! I bailed into the bushes, tractor flipped 30 feet further at the curve. I'm sure you can piss much further than that.