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29 February 2012

Comments

THEMIKEYMCD

Can't decide on my favorite line... surely one of these:

"As our first post-American President, Barack Obama sees his current job as a stepping stone to higher office."

AND

"Sec Treasury Geithner has also advanced the concept stating that it is a government endowed “privilege of being an American”, a privilege to be retained that must be financed at ever greater levels by fewer and fewer Americans." The irony of Timmy cheating on his own taxes is hypocritical on a biblical scale.

The scariest question I have been asked is "describe a strategy, circumstance or solution that can pull America out of this mess that does not result in blood in the streets, BK, or worse?"

Russell Steele

David Kieffer, head of the powerful Service Employees International Union California, is supporting Governor Brown’s plan to tax the rich, and raise our sales taxes.
"I think people do really feel like he's the adult in the room who would take the resources that the state voters have given him and be prudent with it," Kieffer said in a recent interview. "I think they have a really good feeling that this is the guy who goes into a room on Sunday night as kind of the 'Daddy of California' with a checkbook to pay all the bills."

No mention of cutting government spending or closing some useless commissions or departments. However, with multiple tax proposals on the ballot, the chance of any of them winning voter approval is nil. Voters will be confused and will just say no to all the proposals. That is what the union thug Kieffer is most concerned about, that his union troop will continue to have access to the public trough.

Russell Steele

I think that is video adds to the discussion.

http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-initiative/marxism-america

Michael Anderson

Gee whiz George, this is all pretty heady stuff. The only thing missing are Singularity-induced killer robots: http://eastmostpeninsula.com/comic.php?id=013

Seriously though, I agree that America is coming apart at the seams. However, I believe the problem is more like that outlined recently by Charles Murray: http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Apart-State-America-1960-2010/dp/0307453421
While I don't agree with everything Murray writes here, he makes a cogent point. And one that doesn't require killer space robots, or Marxists spilling from the rafters.

Russ Steele

Well, Wyoming is preparing for the great divide. It is always nice to have a plan in place.


State representatives on Friday [last week] advanced legislation to launch a study into what Wyoming should do in the event of a complete economic or political collapse in the United States.

House Bill 85 passed on first reading by a voice vote. It would create a state-run government continuity task force, which would study and prepare Wyoming for potential catastrophes, from disruptions in food and energy supplies to a complete meltdown of the federal government.

George Rebane

Russ 455pm - It is interesting to hear of how many states have already prepared the legal groundwork for autonomy, and the others like Wyoming that are in the process. Many of the progressives who have visited these pages feel that any talk of the Great Divide is only the lunatic ravings of the right. I'm afraid that those folks will forever be uninformed.

Paul Emery

George

You're "brave new world" style of prediction the future would make for good sci-fi drama but it's has to be filed as fiction since so many of your facts are far from the truth. Let's take our "porous borders" for example. Here's from a recent PEW report

"The record-setting deportation of illegal immigrants under President Obama has drawn scorn from Hispanic Americans, despite recent administration efforts to temper the policy, according to a new Pew Hispanic Center study......

Since 2009, the annual average number of deportations has approached 400,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security. That’s double the annual average during President George W. Bush’s first term and 30 percent higher than the average when he left office.

Meanwhile, the flow of illegal immigrants into the United States has hit a decade low because of the down economy and stepped-up enforcement efforts."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/obamas-record-high-deportations-draw-hispanic-scorn/

And Europe will be OK despite your prediction. Predicting the future is the job of fiction writers.

Also, you can look no further than the Republican Party for your current sour disposition about the potential for an Obama sweep in '12. The current crew of Republican alternatives are a gift from the "lightly learned" for sure that will insure his return a second term. You cant make up a character like Santorum! Don't blame the Dems for taking advantage of their good fortune.

Account Deleted

I've read a few comments lately in the left wing blogosphere that seem to limn the divide quite nicely. One stated that independence and self reliance had been over-emphasized and we needed to become more inter-dependent and symbiotic. Another lamented the fact that there were still folks in large numbers that want to lessen the control of the govt in society. Still another complained of the "extreme" complexity of today's life and the need to reduce the options and choices that were available for American consumers. Of course, there are always the ones that state that too few people "have too much" and we need to re-distribute the stuff. Obama is a big fan of this approach, although I note he doesn't seem to have personally done much on his own to effect this marvelous cure. The idea of producing wealth by extracting raw materials, refining them and manufacturing goods wanted by the free choice of consumers seems to be an outdated concept. In it's place we have money created out of thin air by fiat and wealth accumulation via taking it from some one else. Rather than fill the barrel with goods, we are - as a nation - content to fight at the bottom of said container over the remaining scraps. Our GDP is said to be growing quite nicely now at the estimated annual rate of perhaps 2 and 1/2%. How much of that is just debt boggles the mind, although it seems there are few with minds that boggle over such alarmism. I wonder just what percentage of Americans have no savings, pay no income taxes and are in debt to their eyeballs? Once that number becomes the norm (if not already) then massive inflation and a following collapse of the dollar are of no concern. A boon, even! At that point, or possibly just before that point, the savers and producers of all social and economic classes will possibly decide that if we are to sink into a dark pit, we might be better off led by a tyrant that will promise to at least put the left on the bottom of the whole mess in order that we will land on them to cushion the fall. Ugly? You bet. Unfair and undemocratic? Yessir!
Bloodletting? Count on it. Do I want to see this come about? I have seen too much of history just in my life time to shudder at what might happen. The left have no one but them selves to blame. It is they that cast aside the silly and out dated notion of the original intent of the Constitution. They want pure mob rule and will find out what happens to mobs. Does the left think that the American armed forces will side with them? I don't have a crystal ball, but we know for a fact that we don't have anything close to the amount of actual real dollars to pay off our loans and meet future obligations. We can just print a bunch of trillion dollar bills with Obama's picture on them and hand them to our creditors or we can try to borrow more from Guido or some combo of both. Good luck.

George Rebane

PaulE 731pm - please reread your own comment; there is nothing there that contradicts what I claim in my post - our borders are porous as any Border Patrol agent will tell you, and as the net inflow stats verify. We are not reducing the number of illegal aliens in our country.

"Predicting the future is the job of fiction writers." is about as wrong as one can be. Yes, fiction writers also predict the future, but the real 'predictors' form an industry that is highly in demand by ALL segments of society. That has always been and will always be. I will soon post on this phenomenon as the seminal motivation that underlies almost all enterprise on this green earth. Fiction writers climbed on this train very recently.

In these posts you will always see my best estimate of what lies ahead. The record on these pages is available for all to judge my work product.

Russ Steele

Scott07:39

Remember Obama promised that he would have a Civilian Force as strong as our military. Who do think will be in control of those forces? Did you see the video above? The authority is in Obama Care. Remember, "We have to pass it to find out what is in it." and what is it should scare the sh*t out of all of us, but then again most are not paying any attention and the progressives know that. The first time most will start paying attention is when the guys and gals with guns show up at their door. The pan is coming to a boil and the frogs are not jumping.

David King

Russ said:

"The first time most will start paying attention is when the guys and gals with guns show up at their door. The pan is coming to a boil and the frogs are not jumping."

Some are aware Russ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMeDmV0ufU&feature=player_embedded


Michael Anderson

The temperature in the pot is very warm this evening, I agree. But not so hot that we cannot have a civil dialogue. I hope.

Then Scott wrote: "Does the left think that the American armed forces will side with them?"

Sorry Scott, you jumped the shark on that one. Re-phrase and get back to us.

Todd Juvinall

Scott your points are spot on. One only needs to read history to see why America is headed in the wrong direction. We have ourselves to blame though. We have allowed the left to turn us unto a nanny state and regulate all of us into slavery. Even the little old hairdresser in your neighborhood salon now knows what it is to be regulated into compliance by a government policeman. All aspects of freedom are under attack through these methods. The left wants more power while the right is saying leave us alone.
The frog is cooked and now the takers of our society have empowered the government to take the frog and feed them the legs. There are many on the left who don't even know what they have wrought. The previous commenter is one of them. Rather than addressing your words he chastises you for telling it like it is. PC too the max.

What is fascinating to me about the left and their nanniness is their blindness to the affects of their nanniness. They say they are there to protect the powerless, redistribute the wealth of the haves to the have nots, and make everything fair. They do this by passing laws and regulations. Those laws and regulations then force the employer of those frogs to layoff the frogs. Then the cycle begins again. The education system has been dumbed down so much the frogs can't even figure out who is really to blame for their plight (so they blame the "rich"). The "Occupiers" are the best example of the liberals strategy. The only way to save the place is more freedom, not less. We must rollback many of the nanny state crapola and start educating the kiddies in freedom.

Who said the country is only one generation away from dissolution?

Account Deleted

re: Michael A. at 11:57 - Sorry, I don't follow. I'm familiar with "jumped the shark" and I'll have to have you explain how this applies to my comments.

THEMIKEYMCD

@zerohedge Greek 1 Year hits 978% !!!!

Douglas Keachie

"It's summertime and the living is not easy
Frogs are jumping and the paranoia is high..."

George Rebane

MikeyMcD 855am - The markets are confirming what has been a long-held truth on RR. It is certain that Greece will default in the next 12 months; neither Germany nor anyone else is going to save Greece's creditors. And then the real fun starts in Europe. Germany's 10yr bond yields 1.816%. With lenders demanding 978% from Greece, they are saying that the probability of default in the next 12 months is 99.97% - essentially certainty. More here -
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/11/investors-playing-the-odds.html

Account Deleted

Doug - Any chance you can point out any actual examples of paranoia on this blog topic?

THEMIKEYMCD

What does the Great Divide mean to me?
A daily fight against putting down roots here in CA. I want to be nimble and ready to take advantage of greener pastures elsewhere without worrying about sunk costs in CA. It is not ideal to live like this, but it is prudent and real.

Douglas Keachie

"Doug - Any chance you can point out any actual examples of paranoia on this blog topic? "

Note the timeline in my comment, I'm talking about the future. As in http://www.salesforce.com/events/details/cf12-sf/registration.jsp

Todd Juvinall

Bjorn Vulvan is the latest sock puppet of Pelline. I had to delete it from the CABPRO blog. Nasty.

Account Deleted

So the paranoia will start this summer. I'll watch for it.

Paul Emery

Todd

You can certainly blame the Republican Party for offering such unelectable options to rum against Obama. And George, which side of the Great Divide do you see Nevada County landing in? How does this "confederation of mostly autonomous mega-states" handle national defense isues? Will there be a universal military or will we essentially become a confederation of City States ruled by regional Mulahs? Would there be a Constitution followed by all Mega States? Would there be a racial and cultural divide based on language, religion and income? So many questions, this is just a start.

Ben Emery

What a ridiculous commentary George, you are really stretching it these days. It is sad to see.

Brad Croul


The only potential criticism of the rightwing in this latest leftwing hit piece is the reference to a “compliant Congress”. Fair and balanced-not. I’d say fairly unbalanced.

George Rebane

PaulE 644pm - short answer is 'I don't know', there are so many possibilities and it comes down to the mood in which the separation will take place (given it occurs). The remarkable part of this discussion is the complete tin ear that the Left has to all this. They really believe that we are still on the path to sustainable governance. These people really don't hear anything that we are saying, or they firmly believe that we will be properly dealt with (a la the dictates of Agenda21) when the time comes.

The asymmetry here is that we conservatives don't want to deny the collectivists to live as they wish, we just don't want them to make us live as they wish. They cannot say that about us, and are prepared to use the force of arms to make us do their bidding.

Russ Steele

PaulE 6:44pm as to your questions, some partial answers.

I have not studied the PPIC California Political Geography in detail, but it looks to me like we are seeing a conservative vs liberal cultural divide forming in the state, with the foothill populations much more conservative than the more liberal costal counties, especially in the cities. There are even Democrats professing to be conservatives living in the foothills. The coast cities, run by liberals are on the cusp of a collapse, starting with the San Diego domino. We may see more conservative flocking to the foothills to escape the urban rot that will engulf the cites once they can no longer pay the union pensions. The cultural divides will form as people migrate to regions that are more attractive to their political and religious views, as more of like minds they will organize and make changes, much like the planning that Wyoming is doing now. Planning for the coming economic collapse. It is not going to be a cake walk, but they will have a plan of action. And, a proactive government with a plan will be a more attractive place for like minded people. California’s leader have not even recognized the problem, let alone a plan.

I would pick a region that has an abundance of coal, oil and gas and a “gitter done” attitude like Wyoming. Yes, Wyoming has cold winters, but I lived in Big Piney Wyoming, often reported as the coldest spot in the nation when I lived their in the late 50s, but they had and still have lots of coal, oil and natural gas to stay warm with in the winter. Wyoming has some hydro-power as well. When Lewis and Clark were there during the Dalton Minimum the temperatures were even colder and as we head towards the next grand minimum being close to lots of fossil fuels is going to be very important.

Brad Croul

When the Great Divide comes to a neighborhood near you, you are going to want to be in California, not in some place like Wyoming. When the cow pies hit the fan, Wyoming can trade their fracked hydrocarbons for the Mormon underground 6-month food supplies and some Idaho potatoes. Then what? They will be coming to the West Coast to trade for our abundant resources, etc.

Meanwhile, as you guys wait for the end of civilization and the coming knock on the door by the Marxist hordes, the stock market is up, employment is rising, “Detroit” cannot keep up with the demand for cars, and Americans still seem willing to pay whatever it takes to be able to drive themselves to McDonald’s and all the other corporations that are not going anywhere soon (except to a neighborhood near you).

You realize that for your scenario to take place, you are talking about an apocalypse.

There must be some relationship between the distance from major metropolitan areas and the paranoia of rural dwellers. This paranoia seems to be even more pronounced the further people live from the nearest small town.

I think what we have here is an example of a “folie simultanée" where the group has developed a delusional belief that the opinions of these fear-based, doom-and-gloom conservative websites (that all feed off each other with half truths, misrepresentations, out-of-context quotes, etc.) are true, and based in fact.

Take, for example, the link provide by RussS of the retired military man with the country twang, claiming to be an expert on Marxism. Oh well, he is ex-military and tells you what you want to hear so he gets a pass. Really?

Did you guys not notice that all this mumbo jumbo took to the air waves and ethernet during the current presidential term? Hmmm, now why could that be? Can you say, e-l-e-c-t-i-o-n y-e-a-r?

Russ Steele

Brad 10:14pm. If you think that employment is rising, because the unemployment number is dropping you do not understand how the number is calculated. Millions have left the work force, they are not working and they are not being counted in the unemployment numbers. The real unemployment is between 19-20%

You wrote: You realize that for your scenario to take place, you are talking about an apocalypse. Answer. Yes we do and the prepared will survive and the rest will have to figure it out for themselves, some will and some will not. The meek are not going to inherit the earth, only the bold will survive.

If you do not own a gun, I suggest you get your buns up to the Range and take some gun safety course and then buy one for your own protection. You are going to need it when the you call 911 and no one answers the phone.

George Rebane

BradC 1014pm - I believe you are among those who credit me with a unique and (election) seasonal twist of madness here in these foothills. A brief perusal of RR (see 'Great Divide' category) should disabuse you of that. There you will see that these thoughts are neither geographically nor ideologically constrained. Publications from the WSJ to STRATFOR regularly feature authors of note discussing the GD, as do powerful leftwing organizations such as La Raza and MALDEF who claim to be actively planning for it. The GD will be a bipartisan undertaking.

But it is always a good review for my other readers to see local progressives reintroduce the limits of their reading horizons on these pages.

Paul Emery

AS a member of the unread masses please point me to a legitimate corroboration of these thoughts
"I suspect that the GD will require mass migrations (think of the formation of Pakistan in 1947) and may end up with the territory divided into a confederation of mostly autonomous mega-states sharing perhaps a ‘free trade’ zone. But most certainly these mega-states will not share economic systems, language, or political philosophies in the sense of the Bastiat Triangle (q.v.)."

Comparisons to Pakistan will inspire a lively response from me when I have a little time.

George Rebane

PaulE 1007am - The event of the GD and how it comes about are two separate topics. On the likelihood of the former, please read the citations on RR and recall that the Mormons, Mexicans, Southerners (e.g. The Southern League), etc have been preparing for decades. On the latter, I may, in all humility, have to take credit for the 'mass migrations', and described types of post-GD forms of governance - they are the result of my own analyses, and what I have witnessed in my life. However, even in those I recall being joined by other writers who see similar futures, I just don't have their references handy.

While, as a man trained in science, I have never sought consensus for the verity of my opinions, but I do welcome it if it comes unbidden from respected quarters. In RR I give you and my other readers cum ideological contenders the worldviews (Weltanschauungen) that I fashion, hold, and modify, which for me best explain what has gone before, is going on now, and will happen in the future. Those are the 'models' that organize my reality, and I'm willing to share them for any benefit/amusement/outrage they may provide others, but I do it mostly because I want them exposed to reasonable critique.

And I always welcome alternative worldviews from those able to formulate and communicate them.

billy T

It will take a big event for the Great Divide to happen quickly, IMHO. The depression brought us food stamps. Hoover was ideologically opposed to the government embarking on the slippery slope of handouts. Instead he had the Red Cross pass out packages of seeds. The time was ripe for the New Deal. Racial tension shot to the forefront culminating in The War of Poverty and the end of the homes for unwed mothers. I have heard about the Trilateral Commission for decades and the One (New) World Order. This is nothing that Woodrow Wilson did not cherish and long for. In the USA, the fastest and largest sector of new hiring is at the low end of the pay scale. The huge number of Boomers still working adds to the divide between the haves and have nots, i.e., those entering the workforce versus those in their peak earning years. The stock market has bumped up over the last 2 months, but trading volume is down, down down. Investor's are not jumping in with both feet. Japan lives on a trillion bucks of borrowed money as well as all the emerging markets. The world is just to big to bail. We are the biggest contributor to the International Monetary Fund (bail out Kingpin), The World Bank, and the UN. We have an unemployment system designed for 26 weeks and a Social Security system that never was designed to be a lifelong disability fund for millions who see green onions chase musical notes across the sky. We have half the persons of working age pulling the weight of the other half including their families that pay nothing, contribute little if anything. The successful are demonized and politicians devise countless ways to wretch the industrious one's money before they even see it. Yep, GD or not, we are ripe for another Huey Long type who lives in The Hague.

Douglas Keachie

Owning a gun and staying in your normal topside visible house, only works as long as those attempting to invade do not outnumber your household, if they have guns too. Unless you have fortified your wall with substantial armor, they offer little or no protection from anything bigger than a 32.

To really survive if a firestorm of lawlessness sweeps the land, you'll need to have a well concealed, well stocked, underground bunker with independent an silent air, water, and sewage services. This is no small investment. No, we don't have one, but yes, we can get to some fairly isolated spots here from which can see the action around the house.

If you had some warning, you can make your way on foot. Bringing the dogs might tip off the intruders, but you are not going to stop them from following you. In our case we go down across the creek and up the hill and gather on the far side of the ridge.

Seriously though, before they ever get this far, I would expect massive wildfires to sweep the area, as initial encounters between city folks and Smartsville, Penn Valley and Browns Valley occur, should this happen during the summer. The landscape and the pickings would look pretty grim to the city dwellers, but some would survive and would keep on trucking. Frankly, there is no real safe haven. Happy paranoia, everybody. Humans can travel this country, the gold miners did it with no roads or trails, other than game trails.

billy T

Doug, I have pondered how to survive the GD. Moving to Smartsville may be a line of first defense but I doubt I can hold of the horde of envious hateful lawless from the urban blight. Perhaps I can kill a bunch of them in my Alamo before I am overrun. I once was doing work for a large diary plant. They were sending 2 kilo boxes of butter to Saudi Arabia. I saw a forklift loading huge one ton sacks of powdered milk. I inquired to the destination of the powder milk as they where being loaded on private rail cars. The reply was the government buys then and stocks them in a cave in Utah. Hmmm. That was 15 years ago and a lot of powdered milk. Utah may be nice this time of year. They are coming alright. Let the GD games begin http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/03/10567807-three-occupy-oaklanders-charged-with-hate-crimes-robbery

David King

Ah yes, hate crimes shmate crimes, crime is crime; period.

I can't believe these young people lack of respect

Little kiddies having fun pretending to be on the edge of society. Boo, boo from an armed public.

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/02/8603107-occupy-protesters-target-downtown-oakland-bank-branches

The Fore Fathers knew this would happen, but their just old dead white guys. LOL! All one has to do is look to what is happening in Syria to an unarmed citizenry; boom your dead.

This is for our brave, brave leftists.
CAUTION: This video shows what happens when you incite to riot and then run away and hide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4OslMapWA

Maybe the Occupy anarchists will volunteer to help.
Just kidding!

I wonder if the left can undo what they started. Sitting back here in the safe womb that our military has made for us tends to embolden the contemplative class. Hey, it’s boring, let’s blow up some infrastructure like hydroelectric / water storage dams---we’re edgy! Let’s party!!!

We need a crying Indian, like in the 70’s…sorry, Native American.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=2MW3jh-QzXY&feature=endscreen

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/26/8500522-hole-blasted-in-condit-dam-to-restore-endangered-fish-habitat

What a sad, pathetic joke these people are!

billy T

I have been hesitant to say this for a long time, but perhaps this is as good of time as any. Something has been bothering me since before last October when the OWS crowd emerged and the 99%er rhetoric heated up after months of bashing the bad guys (rich, well to do, risk takers, and industrious individuals) who are not paying their fair share. Its not fair, for goodness sake. Like its all their fault. No, it is more than John Edwards' (the multimillionaire) Two Americas. It is more sinister than that. This image of the early scenes in the movie A Clockwork Orange kept churning in my mind. When I read an interview in the SF Chronicle concerning the Occupy Oakland rampage and vandalism inside Oakland City Hall, it all starting to make an eerie connection. The interviewer asked two young men where they lived and why were they rioting. The young men displayed their higher intellect by stating they do not in Oakland and came down to the fair city to riot "because it was fun." A short and revealing statement. Shades of A Clockwork Orange? Shades of The Great Divide?

George Rebane

billyT 920am - this is a good insight and point; there is an altogether unique dimension to the occupiers that also encompasses the 'mad max' mentality. For people without an ideological or spiritual anchor for civility, this mentality may come to rule the day.

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