The Eternal Debate with Collectivists (updated 16apr12)

George Rebane

For the benefit of the undecided reader who is truly puzzled as to the nature and fate of collectivist vs (classical) liberal forms of governance, we will take another lap around the barn.  The examination and critique of public policy always circles back to the fundamental arguments between the eternally contending measures of liberty and equality.  Equality is easy to attain and maintain, all it takes is ignorance and the gun.  Liberty is the more difficult to achieve and keep intact.  And that is because 'equality' is always arbitrarily defined by the central imposing agency; the definition of liberty is distributed and requires broad consensus among those who are free.

That all forms of collectivism have an intrinsic tendency toward autocracy is an historical truth that is rejected only by the collectivist, no matter what particular mantle – socialist, Marxist, communist, fascist, … - he wears.  A favorite argument that works on light thinkers is that liberty and the capitalistic free market societies it gives rise to are only theories that have yet to work anywhere in the real world.

Today Michael Moore and his minions are effective teachers of this thought.  Their ancestors would have made the same arguments to our Founders in the aftermath of our Revolution – ‘That man can govern himself is nothing but a theory, show me where in the world we see such form of governance working.’  The intellectual pinnacle of the collectivist seems to be that liberal maxims cannot be trusted to work since nowhere do we see their perfect application, therefore we must only hew to and expand collectivist forms of governance that are observably unsustainable.

In my readings and studies, I find that all successful liberal societies must base their form of governance on the explicit statement and maintenance of the minimum triangle of rights collected by Frederic Bastiat in his ‘The Law’ (1849).  These consist of the rights to private property, security in your person, and individual liberty (see also the Bastiat Triangle).   One of the fundamental and minimal functions of the state is to uniformly guarantee these rights, for the weakening of any one of them immediately weakens the other two.  And it is upon this stable structure of rights that all other legitimate rights can be constructed into a larger and still stable structure of social governance.  Our Constitution prescribes such a structure.

One of the fundamental limitations that government must operate under is a fisc sustained by taxes limited to a specific maximum fraction of the nation’s GDP.  I believe the sweet spot for that fraction is in the 15-20% range.  And that fraction must be adhered even in times of national emergency when clearly a larger share of GDP is required to maintain public welfare and/or sovereignty.  The clarity of such requirement is used by the government to borrow additional monies (e.g. ‘Victory Bonds’, Treasuries) as needed from its citizens and foreign lenders.  If its citizens are not voluntarily willing to step up to maintain their nation in time of trouble, then they have collectively decided to let it dissolve and cast their lot for a better future.  That is the responsibility of true freedom – you are free to again become a slave.

None of the above is feasible for large, diverse populations.  It only works when it is implemented by people who share the necessary commonalities to come together in the attempt to form such a ‘more perfect union’.  The dominant commonality is a culture that is sufficiently deep, uniformly honored, and widely celebrated.  Such cultures evolve slowly and are necessarily exclusionary.  But they do guarantee the maximum liberties with the minimum of formal legislation and its enforcement bureaucracy.  The alternatives to this have been presented to us in the 20th century, and new ones are in the construction phase in this century.

Liberal states do not send armies across borders to spread their gospel.  But they do jealously guard their own borders, conditionally letting in only those who are judged to serve the interests of the established.  A community of such nations would serve as a dynamic laboratory of competing experiments in governance, each free to copy the beneficial discoveries of the other.

The more collectivist states will remain as the biggest threat to world order, since their inability to create sufficient wealth will require the perennial finger-pointing at foreign pariahs who are the propagandized cause of their internal shortcomings and misery.  It is they who will have the tendency (requirement?) to send armies instead of trade goods across their frontiers.

Today the EU is the most compelling exhibit of these principles.  After decades of socialistic programs which have primarily served to grow usurious governments, the facades of such social engineering are beginning to crumble.  But the downfall is not uniform across the continent, and does reflect the cultural propensities of the nations involved.  Germany is clearly the richest and most stable of such nations, and it is being studied for emulation by other EU member states like Italy, Spain, and even the Scandinavians.

However, the recent (14-20apr12) issue of The Economist contains analyses concluding that the German model may not be worth copying, primarily because its working owes so much to the culture of the German people, a culture of structured dynamism and “ordered flexibility”.  “(T)he essence of (the German) model is rooted too deeply (in its culture) to be copied easily.”  This beneficial state of affairs has come about through an aggressive effort by Germans to “liberalize its labor market rules” and broaden its apprentice/academic dual track educational system.  Germany realized a long time ago that not all students are prepared to benefit from a college education, especially one that is empty of teaching wealth creation skills.

I don’t want to end this little apology with the implication that Germany is practicing a sustainable form of liberal governance.  Along with other Caucasian nation-states of Europe, Germany is headed for a demographic iceberg.  Germany, due to its history, is particularly vulnerable to losing its economic primacy as its population ages and workforce shrinks.  It cannot convince Germans to make enough little Germans to keep the whole thing going.  And thereby hangs another tale.

[16apr12 update]  H/T to a reader who sent me the revealing graphic below.  The reader is invited to note the levels of unemployment BEFORE the Great Depression.  That these were outrageously high was somehow missed by our own socialists singing the praises of the 'European model' of socialist policies.  This is a useful picture of the economies Europe is trying to pull back from, and the ones that Obama and the Dems have been attempting to replicate with some considerable success.

Adding to the current developments in Europe's pullback from its collectivist policies is this piece in 14apr12 The Spectator on 'Sweden's secret recipe' by Fraser Nelson.  There he reports -

... Since becoming Sweden’s finance minister, (Anders Borg's) mission has been to pare back government. His ‘stimulus’ was a permanent tax cut. To critics, this was fiscal lunacy — the so-called ‘punk tax cutting’ agenda. Borg, on the other hand, thought lunacy meant repeating the economics of the 1970s and expecting a different result.

Three years on, it’s pretty clear who was right. ‘Look at Spain, Portugal or the UK, whose governments were arguing for large temporary stimulus,’ he says. ‘Well, we can see that very little of the stimulus went to the economy. But they are stuck with the debt.’ Tax-cutting Sweden, by contrast, had the fastest growth in Europe last year, when it also celebrated the abolition of its deficit. The recovery started just in time for the 2010 Swedish election, in which the Conservatives were re-elected for the first time in history. ...

Comments

[billy T]

Another fine article. I was going to post how this next election is not about Republican nor Democrat, but a true referendum of the direction of our country. Obama is out there everyday stumping about how our country should be, his vision of America. Yes, I was going to post about all about that with quotes and The Eternal Debate with Collectivists until I remembered this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woBC5b3Ti0M&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[George Rebane]

Agree with billyT's 1257pm; yes, the directions touted by the Dems and Repubs have never been more different and clear. It truly is a fork in the road, and coming to it, we unfortunately cannot follow Yogi Berra's sage advice.

[Todd Juvinall]

What fascinates me about the left is their lack of historical knowledge. Until the Revolution, all of man's history of governance was kings and subjects (canon fodder). Except for a brief period in 500 BC or so in Greece. Individual freedom was unheard of and rooted out and destroyed by the "powers that be".

If the left is so ignorant about freedom, what does that say about the education system? We are one generation away from Cuba.

[billy T]

Preaching "fair share" every day at every campaign stop does not create jobs, spur economic growth, slow food price inflation, lower the price at the pump, or lead even 2 people out of poverty. It is a sorry commentary when that is all the left is reduced to, i.e., a recycling of ideas that have failed. To make nice with such folks is also foolish as the policy of appeasement has historically failed. Either the Constitution is a quaint relic of times before Charim toilet paper or it is alive and well. If it is to be discarded, then it should be labeled as 18th century Charim. That quaint document of the 18th Century lays out the principles and format which this nation is to function. Our government was not set up to have an Executive Office so strong that Congress and the courts merely rubber stamp power grabs or face execution such as our neighboring Cuba or Saddam's Iraq or North Korea. I read recently a local politician state that being sick makes her unhappy, thus we need single payer health care to ensure her pursuit of happiness. I call that a misinterpretation of the Constitution, a stretch if you will. Besides that phrase is found in the Declaration of Independence (independence from the control of an overbearing government) but who am I to correct the unteachable? When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. The stakes are high and letting wayward children run amok is bad for us all. Germany has learned that lesson. After years of prodding, imploring, threatening, coherence and pushing Greece to behave and be good, Germany had enough. Finally in desperation and parental wisdom, Germany simply allowed Greece's bonds and debts to float as they may. I guess having people make more in retirement than they made in their peak earning years was Greek's pursuit of happiness. Greece got by for a couple of years with crushing debt and more crushing service on the debt until they cried Uncle! Bad boy, Greece, now clean up your room. Tragically, in 6-7 years Greece will come out of it with a 25% decline in her standard of living. Greece has too much wreckage to simply clean up the mess and come out of of her room declaring time out is over. You walk 20 miles into the woods, you have to walk 20 miles out, and with blisters to deal with. I don't want that to happen to the USA. This is not a mere debate or exchange of ideas. This is a fight for survival for our form of government as laid out in our Constitution verses an "ideal" what our country should be.

[Russ Steele]

This came in over my e-mail tansom a while ago and thought I would share it:

The following is written by Dr. Sowell, and I quote:
 
"The current Occupy Wall Street movement is the best illustration to date of what
President Barack Obama's America looks like. It is an America where the lawless,
 unaccomplished, ignorant and incompetent rule. It is an America where those who
have sacrificed nothing pillage and destroy the lives of those who have sacrificed
greatly.

"It is an America where history is rewritten to honor dictators, murderers and thieves.
It is an America where violence, racism, hatred, class warfare and murder are all
promoted as acceptable means of overturning the American civil society.
 
"It is an America where humans have been degraded to the level of animals: defecating
 in public, having sex in public, devoid of basic hygiene. It is an America where the
 basic tenets of a civil society, including faith, family, a free press and individual rights,
have been rejected. It is an America where our founding documents have been
shredded and, with them, every person's guaranteed liberties.
 
"It is an America where, ultimately, great suffering will come to the American people, but the rulers like Obama, Michelle Obama, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden,
Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, liberal college professors, union bosses and other loyal
liberal/Communist Party members will live in opulent splendor.
 
"It is the America that Obama and the Democratic Party have created with the willing
 assistance of the American media, Hollywood, unions, universities, the Communist
 Party of America, the Black Panthers and numerous anti-American foreign entities.
 "Barack Obama has brought more destruction upon this country in four years than
any other event in the history of our nation, but it is just the beginning of what he
and his comrades are capable of.
 
"The Occupy Wall Street movement is just another step in their plan for the
annihilation of America. "Socialism, in general, has a record of failure so blatant
 that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."

Thomas Sowell

My emphasis added

[THEMIKEYMCD]

George, what a wonder it would have been to watch populations, production, quality of life, etc evolve within our 50 states IF state's rights were respected as originally intended [yes, if the good guys won the civil war].

I am reading a fascinating book titled Under This Sun where a russian (lower case...russian by geography only) Mennonite community thrived in their confined free market, pro liberty, Christian communities... right up until they were slaughtered/exiled/enslaved by Lenin/Stalin Bolsheviks in the name of collectivism/communism.

"None of the above is feasible for large, diverse populations. It only works when it is implemented by people who share the necessary commonalities to come together in the attempt to form such a ‘more perfect union’. "

[THEMIKEYMCD]

History it s bitch for collectivists.

On the contrary truly free markets (private property, private ownership, no central banks, no collusion by corps/labor unions with gov, etc) has rarely (if ever) been attempted.

To have truly free markets the elitists in power must humble themselves, which is unnatural.

[Paul Emery]

George

" Liberal states do not send armies across borders to spread their gospel."

Are you referring to the US adventures in Iraq as an example? Operation Iraqi Freedom

[George Rebane]

PaulE 925am - as made clear in the first sentence, in this piece 'liberal' is used in its classic sense not in the current one co-opted by stasist and statist collectives.

And, sadly, the US is no longer the liberal state it used to be, and as world hegemon has had embarrassing lapses of the pro forma dictum presented here. Perhaps some day we can return closer to the ideal, which in a detailed review of history we have always had a hard time achieving - 'Manifest Destiny' and all that.

[George Rebane]

A reader, worried that my little apology might be too wordy to carry the point, sent me the link to this alternate and more entertaining explanation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8O7V-WxWQ&feature=youtu.be

[Paul Emery]

I was aware of that George. I was referring the the Bush actions to determing it that was contrary in your opinion to the desire that classical Liberal states do not impose themselves on sovereign states to spread their gospel.

[Ryan Mount]

President Bush II was a Neo-Liberal, not a classical liberal. Neo-Liberals, going back to Teddy Roosevelt (there are other examples) were fond of projecting the USA's influence into other countries. Sometimes it is/was in the form of McDonalds, sometimes it is/was in the form of a cruise missile.

Now, I have an anecdote. During one of college seminars many years ago, we were studying the interesting Angular (as in British) Trotsky-ite Marxists theorists. Sorry for all of the adjectives.

My Professor, Mary Anne Creadon (feel free to look her up) made an astonishing assertion: private property and its acquisition was at the core of anti-capitalist dogma. That at the core of Marxism was an abhorrence to private ownership of anything, and that Vulgar Marxists (modern ones) believed that this was the core issue with our modern woes. So if I recall, we were instructed as an exercise to use this to critically explicate texts (this was am English class). It was very interesting wearing that hat for a while. Not sure if I agree with it or not, but George's prose reminded me of that.

[Ryan Mount]

*an English class....the irony.

[THEMIKEYMCD]

George, here is another great visual:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/04/buffett%20deficits%20perspective.jpg

We could focus on cutting expenses or we can go after 'the rich.'

[billy T]

The Tea Party folks and their ilk say "Leave us alone." The OWS folks and their ilk say "Take care of us all." I think there is a difference of world views going on. Marxist Socialism brought us Lenin. Nationalist Socialism brought us Hitler. Democratic Socialism brought us Obama. The only way for Van Jones and Obama and Ayers to achieve their dream is to divide and conquer. Nixon had his enemies list, but Obama has his group lists. First it was the banks, then greedy bondholders at GM. Later we had the gun rights people, those making bonuses, the rich, talk radio, Fox News, the insurance companies, the 1%ers, the Republicans that blocked his last budget....you know the budget he submitted that not even one member of either the House or Senate voted for. When you have Henry Waxman, Maxine Waters, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, and that Independent from Vermont all voting nay, its all the Republicans fault. Lenin had the Czar, Hitler had the Jews, and Obama has too many to list. Timmy G just said the reason the Stimulus is not working as planned is because the Republicans have thwarted even more spending. Stimulus round two, or is it three? Guess Timmy and OWS and Obama and Van Jones and Rev Wright believe if at first you don't succeed, try try again. They will lead us into the promised land once the enemies are torn asunder. In the spirit of compromise, I will pay for their birth control when they pay for my ammunition.

[Paul Emery]

George

"A favorite argument that works on light thinkers is that liberty and the capitalistic free market societies it gives rise to are only theories that have yet to work anywhere in the real world."

Why is it so difficult to give us a couple of real world examples of your theories in action? To quote Reagan "Where's the beef" and "There you go again."

Show me one, just one country that has a free market health care system that abides by your theories.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 918pm - Have we not covered this countless times. I have never claimed that there exists such a system "that abides by (my) theories". We are repeating ourselves as in here -
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/04/socialisms-trail-of-tears-long-time-coming.html?cid=6a00e54f86f2ad88330168e9bc5347970c#comment-6a00e54f86f2ad88330168e9bc5347970c

[Paul Emery]

So if this was a scientific experiment it would be just a theory. Let me ask you this then. What countries are coming close to heading in that direction?

[Todd Juvinall]

George, it would seem to me that attempting to bring more freedom to the people of the planet through capitalism and individual rights must be a foreign thought to those on the left. Socialism has been tried numerous times throughout the years and has failed each time. Capitalism has been an emerging way of life for only a short time. I think the left's confusion about capitalism and freedom is because they have not given it the chance that socialism has had.

[billy T]

Great insight Mr. Juvinall. All socialism must have central control over the individuals who make up the populace, which is the antithesis to our form of governance. Now I have a counter argument to my dear liberal friends who make up 19% of the population. Capitalism needs more time to work. Just give it time, try harder, and maybe we should try the right kind. Don't think that will change any minds, but maybe if I try harder.....lol.

[George Rebane]

The most amazing point of the progressive stream of rationale is that the historical successes of free enterprise and capitalism don't count, they cannot be used as evidence (past successful experiments) in the current debate. The same goes for the dismal failures of collectivism, these also must be left as bygones.

Therefore, under this aegis we find ourselves in a world that is still in the thrall of collectivist and other autocratic policies doing all it can to wean itself from the obvious disasters encountered and yet to come. The United States has been the only major country (we discount the Cubas, Greeces, and Venezuelas) that has been heading in the wrong direction toward ever more collectivism since putting the petal to the metal with the progressive Great Society programs.

To continue the discussion under these constraints has the same prospects for success as did the counsels for the defense during Stalin's show trials of 1930s. We must constantly return to the basis for this disconnect, which is more serious (as amply noted in RR) between collectivists and classical liberals than just the turn of a clever phrase.

From my readings and IMHO, the collectivist does not learn from history and seeks an ever more perfect society through the ever more intimate control of its citizens. The liberal is an astute student of history who sees the mega-benefits that free enterprise, personal initiative, and freedom have given and continues to give to humans in the few centuries since man began to trade and invent, and therefore wants that way of life to continue.

Can we do both concurrently? I don't think so.

[THEMIKEYMCD]

Would it help the health care debacle to have more choice (free market) or less (gov monopoly)?

Decrease regulations: Would it help the health care debacle to allow health insurance companies to offer 'al la cart' plans (for example, a 30 year old who is unable to have children could opt out of maternal care)? Would it help if similar insurance programs could be offered over state lines? Couldn't insurance companies be allowed to underwrite (read give discounts) based on the users health, those who take care of themselves pay less? Wouldn't it help to have a high co-pay for medicare patients to cut down on needless visits to the Dr./Hospital?

[The current medicare system encourages waste, misuse of dr./hospital visits? See tragedy of commons] Wouldn't it be moral (constitutional) to allow for a government sponsored OPT-IN high risk pool (state or fed level) for the 5% of the population that won't/can't insure themselves privately?

Is there any doubt that medicare is responsible for excessive health care costs?

[Gregory]

Paul E, there was a nearly free market in health care in the US until a half century ago. It's well over 50% socialized now, even before Obamacare is rolled out (or, more likely, struck down by the SCOTUS), and much of the growth of costs for private patients is that the staggering costs of trying to cure folks of their last illness, primarily under Medicare, are only partially reimbursed by the government payers. So they make it up from the insured (with the insurance companies being able to whittle it down somewhat) and the uninsured (who, not having an insurer with negotiated rates, can find their bill being 4 times as high for the same service).

The Mayo brothers thrived in a free market and created one of the great institutions of the 20th century and of our day, the Mayo Clinic.

If you want to make health care affordable, the elderly are going to have to be a bit more stoic when it is their time. Expect us Boomers to be pushed to be the first generation to accept palliative care as a first choice when an expensive illness is diagnosed after retirement; to paraphrase a false Willie Sutton quote, it's because "that's where the money is going".

[Todd Juvinall]

I am amazed at the left in their love of what governance has become in Europe. It wasn't that long ago that most European countries were run by kings then fascists and communists. WW2 booted the kings and the fascists but not the communists. They were not booted until 1989 to 1992. Yet it was good ol' Americans, those free market capitalists that were the linchpin throughout all that turmoil in Europe and the planet in general. Yet we have people in our dear country that would be hard pressed to explain how America made it through those times. The love of socialism seems to fog them over and make them ignorant.

[billy T]

Ironic this is tax day. The socialists and other misguided dear souls believe that taxes should be raised more and given to the government to "create" jobs and prosperity. Other, such as I, see the folly of their broken thinkers and believe that taxes should be lowered to unleash the power and enterprising spirit of the individual. Creating a huge government workforce has doomed the economic engine of many a country and stifled the spirit of the many. In a perverse way, the servant has become the master and a ruthless taskmaster at that.

[George Rebane]

billyT 659pm - Sadly, the progressive mind is impervious to both such historical record and its use in understanding current events.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

I understand and appreciate much of what you say about health care. Rationing has to be part of any universal health care plan.

[Ben Emery]

Very interesting conversation. Here is a must read.

It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis 1935
http://www.goodreads.com/reader/4245-it-can-t-happen-here?percent=0.381394

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.”

This quote's description sounds very familiar.

[George Rebane]

So no one is led astray - fascism is yet another form of collectivism where private enterprise, personal security, and individual liberties are forsaken to the state.

[Gregory]

Paul, in every market, free or otherwise, goods are rationed.

In free markets, goods and services are freely exchanged. We have universal health care now, and we had it a century ago. It's just that the less wealth you control, the less choice you have. The less you can pay, the more you wait.

Should a meth addict who has never worked an honest day in their life get the same prepaid health care as the good people who work and live within their means? Just wondering...

[Ben Emery]

Just to add to the subject of American Fascism. It is an authoritarian anti-democratic nationalistic corporate state.

The Danger of American Fascism
By Henry A. Wallace
The New York Times
From Henry A. Wallace, Democracy Reborn (New York, 1944), edited by Russell Lord, p. 259.

Sunday 09 April 1944

On returning from my trip to the West in February, I received a request from The New York Times to write a piece answering the following questions:

What is a fascist?
How many fascists have we?
How dangerous are they?

A fascist is one whose lust for money or power is combined with such an intensity of intolerance toward those of other races, parties, classes, religions, cultures, regions or nations as to make him ruthless in his use of deceit or violence to attain his ends. The supreme god of a fascist, to which his ends are directed, may be money or power; may be a race or a class; may be a military, clique or an economic group; or may be a culture, religion, or a political party.

The perfect type of fascist throughout recent centuries has been the Prussian Junker, who developed such hatred for other races and such allegiance to a military clique as to make him willing at all times to engage in any degree of deceit and violence necessary to place his culture and race astride the world. In every big nation of the world are at least a few people who have the fascist temperament. Every Jew-baiter, every Catholic hater, is a fascist at heart. The hoodlums who have been desecrating churches, cathedrals and synagogues in some of our larger cities are ripe material for fascist leadership.

The obvious types of American fascists are dealt with on the air and in the press. These demagogues and stooges are fronts for others. Dangerous as these people may be, they are not so significant as thousands of other people who have never been mentioned. The really dangerous American fascists are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power.

If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. Most American fascists are enthusiastically supporting the war effort. They are doing this even in those cases where they hope to have profitable connections with German chemical firms after the war ends. They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead.

American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery.

The European brand of fascism will probably present its most serious postwar threat to us via Latin America. The effect of the war has been to raise the cost of living in most Latin American countries much faster than the wages of labor. The fascists in most Latin American countries tell the people that the reason their wages will not buy as much in the way of goods is because of Yankee imperialism. The fascists in Latin America learn to speak and act like natives. Our chemical and other manufacturing concerns are all too often ready to let the Germans have Latin American markets, provided the American companies can work out an arrangement which will enable them to charge high prices to the consumer inside the United States. Following this war, technology will have reached such a point that it will be possible for Germans, using South America as a base, to cause us much more difficulty in World War III than they did in World War II. The military and landowning cliques in many South American countries will find it attractive financially to work with German fascist concerns as well as expedient from the standpoint of temporary power politics.

Fascism is a worldwide disease. Its greatest threat to the United States will come after the war, either via Latin America or within the United States itself.

Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion. American fascists of this stamp were clandestinely aligned with their German counterparts before the war, and are even now preparing to resume where they left off, after "the present unpleasantness" ceases:

The symptoms of fascist thinking are colored by environment and adapted to immediate circumstances. But always and everywhere they can be identified by their appeal to prejudice and by the desire to play upon the fears and vanities of different groups in order to gain power. It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice. It may be shocking to some people in this country to realize that, without meaning to do so, they hold views in common with Hitler when they preach discrimination against other religious, racial or economic groups. Likewise, many people whose patriotism is their proudest boast play Hitler's game by retailing distrust of our Allies and by giving currency to snide suspicions without foundation in fact.

The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism. They cultivate hate and distrust of both Britain and Russia. They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.

Several leaders of industry in this country who have gained a new vision of the meaning of opportunity through co-operation with government have warned the public openly that there are some selfish groups in industry who are willing to jeopardize the structure of American liberty to gain some temporary advantage. We all know the part that the cartels played in bringing Hitler to power, and the rule the giant German trusts have played in Nazi conquests. Monopolists who fear competition and who distrust democracy because it stands for equal opportunity would like to secure their position against small and energetic enterprise. In an effort to eliminate the possibility of any rival growing up, some monopolists would sacrifice democracy itself.

It has been claimed at times that our modern age of technology facilitates dictatorship. What we must understand is that the industries, processes, and inventions created by modern science can be used either to subjugate or liberate. The choice is up to us. The myth of fascist efficiency has deluded many people. It was Mussolini's vaunted claim that he "made the trains run on time." In the end, however, he brought to the Italian people impoverishment and defeat. It was Hitler's claim that he eliminated all unemployment in Germany. Neither is there unemployment in a prison camp.

Democracy to crush fascism internally must demonstrate its capacity to "make the trains run on time." It must develop the ability to keep people fully employed and at the same time balance the budget. It must put human beings first and dollars second. It must appeal to reason and decency and not to violence and deceit. We must not tolerate oppressive government or industrial oligarchy in the form of monopolies and cartels. As long as scientific research and inventive ingenuity outran our ability to devise social mechanisms to raise the living standards of the people, we may expect the liberal potential of the United States to increase. If this liberal potential is properly channeled, we may expect the area of freedom of the United States to increase. The problem is to spend up our rate of social invention in the service of the welfare of all the people.

The worldwide, agelong struggle between fascism and democracy will not stop when the fighting ends in Germany and Japan. Democracy can win the peace only if it does two things:

Speeds up the rate of political and economic inventions so that both production and, especially, distribution can match in their power and practical effect on the daily life of the common man the immense and growing volume of scientific research, mechanical invention and management technique. Vivifies with the greatest intensity the spiritual processes which are both the foundation and the very essence of democracy.

The moral and spiritual aspects of both personal and international relationships have a practical bearing which so-called practical men deny. This dullness of vision regarding the importance of the general welfare to the individual is the measure of the failure of our schools and churches to teach the spiritual significance of genuine democracy. Until democracy in effective enthusiastic action fills the vacuum created by the power of modern inventions, we may expect the fascists to increase in power after the war both in the United States and in the world.

Fascism in the postwar inevitably will push steadily for Anglo-Saxon imperialism and eventually for war with Russia. Already American fascists are talking and writing about this conflict and using it as an excuse for their internal hatreds and intolerances toward certain races, creeds and classes.

It should also be evident that exhibitions of the native brand of fascism are not confined to any single section, class or religion. Happily, it can be said that as yet fascism has not captured a predominant place in the outlook of any American section, class or religion. It may be encountered in Wall Street, Main Street or Tobacco Road. Some even suspect that they can detect incipient traces of it along the Potomac. It is an infectious disease, and we must all be on our guard against intolerance, bigotry and the pretension of invidious distinction. But if we put our trust in the common sense of common men and "with malice toward none and charity for all" go forward on the great adventure of making political, economic and social democracy a practical reality, we shall not fail.

[George Rebane]

BenE 809am - thank you for that extensive and revealing post from Henry A. Wallace. Wallace was a documented hard left progressive and political naif/idiot whose public career finally made him an anathema to the American left. (Among his many demotions, FDR dumped him as VP to have a chance at re-election in1944.)

He was a loud mouthpiece for Stalin, having learned nothing of the Bolshevik revolution and the intervening 20 years of USSR history. As late as 1944 he was still being bullshit by the NKVD which guided him through a tour of the Soviet Gulag, convincing him that the workers were "volunteers" who lived in villages that governed themselves through American style "townhall meetings".

The man was endorsed by the Communist Party here and in the USSR, and continually represented fascism as being a fundamentally different type of governance from socialism and communism. He never saw the coming half century of global struggle between the communist collective and the free world, but did his best to hide the socialist face of nazism which he erroneously characterized as the biggest post-war threat to the world. Nowhere did he acknowledge the street thuggery and murder that went on in European countries between the competing national (fascist) and international (communist) brands of socialism.

Today the Democratic Party has swung so far to the left that American progressives are now exhuming Wallace's thought and ideas as the legitimate provenance of their own contemporary ideas of 'social democracy and justice'.

[Todd Juvinall]

Liberals think the number of words is the best way to be seen as "smart" I guess. BenE's 1887 words were then deconstructed by a couple of hundred words by George. It is brevity on the blogs that keep people coming back, that is why liberal blogs fail and liberal talk radio and TV are a flop.

I wonder if Wallace is enshrined in the "People's plaque in Moscow?

[THEMIKEYMCD]

Ben, nice cut-n-paste job. I find it most interesting that Wallace's fascist description aptly describes Obama (class warfare/bigot/eat the rich, 5 Trillion in debt FORCED down our throats, obamacare FORCED down our throats, etc).

Wallace: "may be money or power; may be a race or a class"

Collectivist ends require FORCE [aggression, terror, fear, slavery, sacrifice].
Free markets (without corporate/labor union collusion) require liberty [peace, competition, honor, trust]

Limit the power of government and you will limit the power of those who collude with said government.

[Gregory]

Ben, you called George Rebane a liar at the out of control brand P blog, and now you post this ancient diatribe of Henry Wallace, including the line "American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact".

Do you think Rebane is an "American fascist"?

[Ben Emery]

Yes, I think most regular right wingers who comment on Ruminations are fascists and corporatists.

[Todd Juvinall]

Care to list them?

[Ben Emery]

I have made it a public statement in a number of places that America has shifted to a Mussolini style fascism with a modern day twist.

I believe both of these were published in the Union before I decided to run for public office, since then my submissions have not seen ink very often.

The Tea Party Have It Correct But Wrong
http://www.benemery.org/1/post/2010/04/the-tea-party-have-it-correct-but-wrong.html

Mussolini's Chamber of Fasci and Corporations (Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni) coming to America
http://www.benemery.org/1/post/2010/03/mussolinis-chamber-of-fasci-and-corporations-camera-dei-fasci-e-delle-corporazioni-coming-to-america.html

[Todd Juvinall]

BenE, you said most of the right wingers posting on this blog are fascists. I simply asked you to name them.

[THEMIKEYMCD]

Ben Emery obviously has zero understanding of the political spectrum (for example, fascism is on the left) or economics.

The 'right winger' understands that fascism's antidote is personal liberty, free markets, private property and VOLUNTARY CHOICE. The 'right winger' desires a system of competition and a government unable to be sold to the highest bidder (corps, labor unions). The 'right winger' understands that by limiting the power of government you also limit the power of the corporations/labor unions/special interests/leaches.

It is the uneducated/ignorant/stupid collectivist that pushes for the enslaving of the masses to the elitist/central planners by FORCE. It is the collectivists who believes that corporate CEO's are evil (greedy/power hungry) while believing that politicians are wise, all knowing and virtuous.

This might help as a tutorial on our government system: http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

[George Rebane]

MikeyMcD 254pm - This is a powerful and clear video of our choices of government (I think it's also posted somewhere on RR), however, my experience has been that its message is totally incomprehensible to the progressive mind. Perhaps I am wrong.

[Brad Croul]

I just got this email from my dad. This stuff definitely adds up to a lot of expense. There are "agencies" that I think are worthwhile but probably many that could be cut or eliminated, and whose beneficiaries could be directed to another agency. At least that would cut down on the management overhead needed.

These are all California State Agencies:

California Academic Performance Index (API) * California Access for Infants and Mothers * California Acupuncture Board * California Administrative Office of the Courts * California Adoptions Branch * California African American Museum * California Agricultural Export Program * California Agricultural Labor Relations Board * California Agricultural Statistics Service * California Air Resources Board (CARB) * California Allocation Board * California Alternative Energy and Advanced Transportation Financing Authority * California Animal Health and Food Safety Services * California Anti-Terrorism Information Center * California Apprenticeship Council * California Arbitration Certification Program * California Architects Board * California Area VI Developmental Disabilities Board * California Arts Council * California Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus * California Assembly Democratic Caucus * California Assembly Republican Caucus * California Athletic Commission * California Attorney General * California Bay Conservation and Development Commission * California Bay-Delta Authority * California Bay-Delta Office * California Bio Diversity Council * California Board for Geologists and Geophysicists * California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors * California Board of Accountancy * California Board of Barbering and Cosmetology * California Board of Behavioral Sciences * California Board of Chiropractic Examiners * California Board of Equalization (BOE) * California Board of Forestry and Fire Protection * California Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind * California Board of Occupational Therapy * California Board of Optometry * California Board of Pharmacy * California Board of Podiatric Medicine * California Board of Prison Terms * California Board of Psychology * California Board of Registered Nursing * California Board of Trustees * California Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric Technicians * California Braille and Talking Book Library * California Building Standards Commission * California Bureau for Private Post Secondary and Vocational Education * California Bureau of Automotive Repair * California Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair * California Bureau of Home Furnishings and Thermal Insulation * California Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine * California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services * California Bureau of State Audits * California Business Agency * California Business Investment Services (CalBIS) * California Business Permit Information (CalGOLD) * California Business Portal * California Business, Transportation and Housing Agency * California Cal Grants * California CalJOBS * California Cal-Learn Program * California CalVet Home Loan Program * California Career Resource Network * California Cemetery and Funeral Bureau * California Center for Analytical Chemistry * California Center for Distributed Learning * California Center for Teaching Careers (Teach California) * California Chancellors Office * California Charter Schools * California Children and Families Commission * California Children and Family Services Division * California Citizens Compensation Commission * California Civil Rights Bureau * California Coastal Commission * California Coastal Conservancy * California Code of Regulations * California Collaborative Projects with UC Davis * California Commission for Jobs and Economic Growth * California Commission on Aging * California Commission on Health and Safety and Workers Compensation * California Commission on Judicial Performance * California Commission on State Mandates * California Commission on Status of Women * California Commission on Teacher Credentialing * California Commission on the Status of Women * California Committee on Dental Auxiliaries * California Community Colleges Chancellors Office, Junior Colleges * California Community Colleges Chancellors Office * California Complaint Mediation Program * California Conservation Corps * California Constitution Revision Commission * California Consumer Hotline * California Consumer Information Center * California Consumer Information * California Consumer Services Division * California Consumers and Families Agency * California Contractors State License Board * California Corrections Standards Authority * California Council for the Humanities * California Council on Criminal Justice * California Council on Developmental Disabilities * California Court Reporters Board * California Courts of Appeal * California Crime and Violence Prevention Center * California Criminal Justice Statistics Center * California Criminalist Institute Forensic Library * California CSGnet Network Management * California Cultural and Historical Endowment * California Cultural Resources Division * California Curriculum and Instructional Leadership Branch * California Data Exchange Center * California Data Management Division * California Debt and Investment Advisory Commission * California Delta Protection Commission * California Democratic Caucus * California Demographic Research Unit * California Dental Auxiliaries * California Department of Aging * California Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs * California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control Appeals Board * California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control * California Department of Boating and Waterways (Cal Boating) * California Department of Child Support Services (CDCSS) * California Department of Community Services and Development * California Department of Conservation * California Department of Consumer Affairs * California Department of Corporations * California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation * California Department of Developmental Services * California Department of Education * California Department of Fair Employment and Housing * California Department of Finance * California Department of Financial Institutions * California Department of Fish and Game * California Department of Food and Agriculture * California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF) * California Department of General Services * California Department of General Services, Office of State Publishing * California Department of Health Care Services * California Department of Housing and Community Development * California Department of Industrial Relations (DIR) * California Department of Insurance * California Department of Justice Firearms Division * California Department of Justice Opinion Unit * California Department of Justice, Consumer Information, Public Inquiry Unit * California Department of Justice * California Department of Managed Health Care * California Department of Mental Health * California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) * California Department of Personnel Administration * California Department of Pesticide Regulation * California Department of Public Health * California Department of Real Estate * California Department of Rehabilitation * California Department of Social Services Adoptions Branch * California Department of Social Services * California Department of Technology Services Training Center (DTSTC) * California Department of Technology Services (DTS) * California Department of Toxic Substances Control * California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) * California Department of Veterans Affairs (CalVets) * California Department of Water Resources * California Departmento de Vehiculos Motorizados * California Digital Library * California Disabled Veteran Business Enterprise Certification Program * California Division of Apprenticeship Standards * California Division of Codes and Standards * California Division of Communicable Disease Control * California Division of Engineering * California Division of Environmental and Occupational Disease Control * California Division of Gambling Control * California Division of Housing Policy Development * California Division of Labor Standards Enforcement * California Division of Labor Statistics and Research * California Division of Land and Right of Way * California Division of Land Resource Protection * California Division of Law Enforcement General Library * California Division of Measurement Standards * California Division of Mines and Geology * California Division of Occupational Safety and Health (Cal/OSHA) * California Division of Oil, Gas and Geothermal Resources * California Division of Planning and Local Assistance * California Division of Recycling * California Division of Safety of Dams * California Division of the State Architect * California Division of Tourism * California Division of Workers Compensation Medical Unit * California Division of Workers Compensation * California Economic Assistance, Business and Community Resources * California Economic Strategy Panel * California Education and Training Agency * California Education Audit Appeals Panel * California Educational Facilities Authority * California Elections Division * California Electricity Oversight Board * California Emergency Management Agency * California Emergency Medical Services Authority * California Employment Development Department (EDD) * California Employment Information State Jobs * California Employment Training Panel * California Energy Commission * California Environment and Natural Resources Agency * California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) * California Environmental Resources Evaluation System (CERES) * California Executive Office * California Export Laboratory Services * California Exposition and State Fair (Cal Expo) * California Fair Political Practices Commission * California Fairs and Expositions Division * California Film Commission * California Fire and Resource Assessment Program * California Firearms Division * California Fiscal Services * California Fish and Game Commission * California Fisheries Program Branch * California Floodplain Management * California Foster Youth Help * California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) * California Fraud Division * California Gambling Control Commission * California Geographic Information Systems Council (GIS) * California Geological Survey * California Government Claims and Victim Compensation Board * California Governors Committee for Employment of Disabled Persons * California Governors Mentoring Partnership * California Governors Office of Emergency Services * California Governors Office of Homeland Security * California Governors Office of Planning and Research * California Governors Office * California Grant and Enterprise Zone Programs HCD Loan * California Health and Human Services Agency * California Health and Safety Agency * California Healthy Families Program * California Hearing Aid Dispensers Bureau * California High-Speed Rail Authority * California Highway Patrol (CHP) * California History and Culture Agency * California Horse Racing Board * California Housing Finance Agency * California Indoor Air Quality Program * California Industrial Development Financing Advisory Commission * California Industrial Welfare Commission * California InFoPeople * California Information Center for the Environment * California Infrastructure and Economic Development Bank (I-Bank) * California Inspection Services * California Institute for County Government * California Institute for Education Reform * California Integrated Waste Management Board * California Interagency Ecological Program * California Job Service * California Junta Estatal de Personal * California Labor and Employment Agency * California Labor and Workforce Development Agency * California Labor Market Information Division * California Land Use Planning Information Network (LUPIN) * California Lands Commission * California Landscape Architects Technical Committee * California Latino Legislative Caucus * California Law Enforcement Branch * California Law Enforcement General Library * California Law Revision Commission * California Legislative Analyst's Office * California Legislative Black Caucus * California Legislative Counsel * California Legislative Division * California Legislative Information * California Legislative Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT) Caucus * California Legislature Internet Caucus * California Library De velopment Services * California License and Revenue Branch * California Major Risk Medical Insurance Program * California Managed Risk Medical Insurance Board * California Maritime Academy * California Marketing Services * California Measurement Standards * California Medical Assistance Commission * California Medical Care Services * California Military Department * California Mining and Geology Board * California Museum for History, Women, and the Arts * California Museum Resource Center * California National Guard * California Native American Heritage Commission * California Natural Community Conservation Planning Program * California New Motor Vehicle Board * California Nursing Home Administrator Program * California Occupational Safety and Health Appeals Board * California Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board * California Ocean Resources Management Program * California Office of Administrative Hearings * California Office of Administrative Law * California Office of AIDS * California Office of Binational Border Health * California Office of Child Abuse Prevention * California Office of Deaf Access * California Office of Emergency Services (OES) * California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment * California Office of Fiscal Services * California Office of Fleet Administration * California Office of Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) Implementation (CalOHI) * California Office of Historic Preservation * California Office of Homeland Security * California Office of Human Resources * California Office of Legal Services * California Office of Legislation * California Office of Lieutenant Governor * California Office of Military and Aerospace Support * California Office of Mine Reclamation * California Office of Natural Resource Education * California Office of Privacy Protection * California Office of Public School Construction * California Office of Real Estate Appraisers * California Office of Risk and Insurance Management * California Office of Services to the Blind * California Office of Spill Prevention and Response * California Office of State Publishing (OSP) * California Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development * California Office of Systems Integration * California Office of the Inspector General * California Office of the Ombudsman * California Office of the Patient Advocate * California Office of the President * California Office of the Secretary for Education * California Office of the State Fire Marshal * California Office of the State Public Defender * California Office of Traffic Safety * California Office of Vital Records * California Online Directory * California Operations Control Office * California Opinion Unit * California Outreach and Technical Assistance Network (OTAN) * California Park and Recreation Commission * California Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) * California Performance Review (CPR) * California Permit Information for Business (CalGOLD) * California Physical Therapy Board * California Physician Assistant Committee * California Plant Health and Pest Prevention Services * California Policy and Evaluation Division * California Political Reform Division * California Pollution Control Financing Authority * California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo * California Postsecondary Education Commission * California Prevention Services * California Primary Care and Family Health * California Prison Industry Authority * California Procurement Division * California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS) * California Public Employment Relations Board (PERB) * California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) * California Real Estate Services Division * California Refugee Programs Branch * California Regional Water Quality Control Boards * California Registered Veterinary Technician Committee * California Registrar of Charitable Trusts * California Republican Caucus * California Research and Development Division * California Research Bureau * California Resources Agency * California Respiratory Care Board * California Rivers Assessment * California Rural Health Policy Council * California Safe Schools * California San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission * California San Gabriel and Lower Los Angeles Rivers and Mountains Conservancy * California San Joaquin River Conservancy * California School to Career * California Science Center * California Scripps Institution of Oceanography * California Secretary of State Business Portal * California Secretary of State * California Seismic Safety Commission * California Self Insurance Plans (SIP) * California Senate Office of Research * California Small Business and Disabled Veteran Business Enterprise Certification Program * California Small Business Development Center Program * California Smart Growth Caucus * California Smog Check Information Center * California Spatial Information Library * California Special Education Division * California Speech-Language Pathology and Audiology Board * California Standardized Testing and Reporting (STAR) * California Standards and Assessment Division * California State Administrative Manual (SAM) * California State Allocation Board * California State and Consumer Services Agency * California State Architect * California State Archives * California State Assembly * California State Association of Counties (CSAC) * California State Board of Education * California State Board of Food and Agriculture *California Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO) * California State Children's Trust Fund * California State Compensation Insurance Fund * California State Contracts Register Program * California State Contracts Register * California State Controller * California State Council on Developmental Disabilities (SCDD) * California State Disability Insurance (SDI) * California State Fair (Cal Expo) * California State Jobs Employment Information * California State Lands Commission * California State Legislative Portal * California State Legislature * California State Library Catalog * California State Library Services Bureau * California State Library * California State Lottery * California State Mediation and Conciliation Service * California State Mining and Geology Board * California State Park and Recreation Commission * California State Parks * California State Personnel Board * California State Polytechnic University, Pomona * California State Railroad Museum * California State Science Fair * California State Senate * California State Summer School for Mathematics and Science (COSMOS) * California State Summer School for the Arts * California State Superintendent of Public Instruction * California State Teachers Retirement System (CalSTRS) * California State Treasurer * California State University Center for Distributed Learning * California State University, Bakersfield * California State University, Channel Islands * California State University, Chico * California State University, Dominguez Hills * California State University, East Bay * California State University, Fresno * California State University, Fullerton * California State University, Long Beach * California State University, Los Angeles * California State University, Monterey Bay * California State University, Northridge * California State University, Sacramento * California State University, San Bernardino * California State University, San Marcos * California State University, Stanislaus * California State University (CSU) * California State Water Project Analysis Office * California State Water Project * California State Water Resources Control Board * California Structural Pest Control Board * California Student Aid Commission * California Superintendent of Public Instruction * California Superior Courts * California Tahoe Conservancy * California Task Force on Culturally and Linguistically Competent Physicians and Dentists * California Tax Information Center * California Technology and Administration Branch Finance * California Telecommunications Division * California Telephone Medical Advice Services (TAMS) * California Transportation Commission * California Travel and Transportation Agency * California Unclaimed Property Program * California Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board * California Unemployment Insurance Program * California Uniform Construction Cost Accounting Commission * California Veterans Board * California Veterans Memorial * California Veterinary Medical Board and Registered Veterinary Technician Examining Committee * California Veterinary Medical Board * California Victim Compensation and Government Claims Board * California Volunteers * California Voter Registration * California Water Commission * California Water Environment Association (COWPEA) * California Water Resources Control Board * California Welfare to Work Division * California Wetlands Information System * California Wildlife and Habitat Data Analysis Branch * California Wildlife Conservation Board * California Wildlife Programs Branch * California Work Opportunity and Responsibility to Kids (CalWORKs) * California Workers Compensation Appeals Board * California Workforce and Labor Development Agency * California Workforce Investment Board * California Youth Authority (CYA) * Central Valley Flood Protection Board * Center for California Studies * Colorado River Board of California * Counting California * Dental Board of California * Health Insurance Plan of California (PacAdvantage) * Humboldt State University * Jobs with the State of California * Judicial Council of California * Learn California * Library of California * Lieutenant Governors Commission for One California * Little Hoover Commission (on California State Government Organization and Economy) * Medical Board of California * Medi-Cal * Osteopathic Medical Board of California * Physical Therapy Board of California * Regents of the University of California * San Diego State University * San Francisco State University * San Jose State University * Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy * State Bar of California * Supreme Court of California * Teach California * University of California * University of California, Berkeley * University of California, Davis * University of California, Hastings College of the Law * University of California, Irvine * University of California, Los Angeles * University of California, Merced * University of California, Riverside * University of California, San Diego * University of California, San Francisco * University of California, Santa Barbara * University of California, Santa Cruz * Veterans Home of California

[Earl Crabb]

Nice video, Mikey, and Brad's list (which I believe has been published on RR before) is the prime example of government excess. However, there was one catagory missing from the video, that being theocracy. There are many among the evangelical community who would impose their idea of morality on the rest of us. And more than a few Republicans who would use government as a hammer to keep us in a state of perpetual war and fear of enemies, some real and others created to keep "order". I don't trust either party to protect freedom as far as I can throw them.

[George Rebane]

EarlC 433pm - Theocracy is type of oligarchy which the video covered thoroughly. That oligarchies imposes their own types of 'morality' is a separate (independent) matter. There was a no more de juris moral governance in the world than that of the USSR (communists have always been the most moral of all people, and their entire legal system contains strictures on behavior that would come naturally to the moral communist man). Their de facto morality was something different.

Your understanding of the modern evangelical community is somewhat dated (by about a century or so). The evangelicals today are evaporating themselves to extinction through almost humorous attempts to be more politically correct than thou.

I'm not aware of the mode of conduct you ascribe to the "Republicans who would use government as a hammer to keep us in a state of perpetual war and fear of enemies, some real and others created to keep "order"." That has been the demonstrated modus operandi of collectivist (socialist/communist) governments because they need that to rationalize why their populations are in perpetual misery.

But I am aware that American socialists very much point their fingers at Republicans as being the nation's fascists (see the Wallace piece above). Who knows, maybe a few are, but almost every modern war the US entered was done under and at the behest of a Democratic administration.

[Earl Crabb]

Where were you when the Bush/Cheney neo-cons decided to invade Iraq? I know where I was, at the Rood Center watching a mob of angry Republicans screaming at the "cowards" who love Saddam Hussein.(Who were actually just asking to think the thing through.)And even though it was a Democrat (Gary Hart, I believe) who envisioned the Patriot Act, it was Bush and co. that pushed it into law. If you really believe your chosen party is so innocent, then you are as deluded as the socialists you revile.

[Russ Steele]

Earl05:29

Help me out what did the Patriot Act have to do with religion.

[George Rebane]

EarlC 529pm - more careful reading please. Never claimed "innocence" for the Republicans, and was careful to use almost as in "... almost every modern war the US entered was done under and at the behest of a Democratic administration." (And here we're talking about real wars where thousands of men died in a week and sometimes in a day, not over a ten year period.) Only protested your "more than a few Republicans" broad brush in painting that party as the nation's war mongers. Historical evidence doesn't support that.

[Account Deleted]

As much as I like the Crabby, he does have a problem with the specter of evangelicals coming in the night to send him off to a theological re-training center. That and his oft stated fear of righteous minded sin-sniffers from the Tea Party. I have asked on different occasions for particulars, but these seem to be ethereal hob goblins that haunt him and he can only imagine them in his dreams and on this blog. I'm trying to figure what sort of bad govt we would have if only we would stick to the Constitution, but it seems that this path is seen as the gateway to all sorts of evil by the left. As it is the left is imposing it's own morality on us daily and we are paying (literally) for it dearly.

[Earl Crabb]

I guess I'll have to spend a few days digging up links to satisfy your curiosity, Scott. The reason I don't is because it's all over the news. Just look at states where Republican legislatures have gerrymandered themselves into safe majorities. Oliver sudden you have all kinds of new laws questioning evolution, women's rights, homosexuality. To my idiotic way of thinking, this is not freedom, but just oppression aimed at a different target.

[Gregory]

Iraq was invaded by Bush I, who then turned over the Baathist supervision to the UN.

Then the infamous Oil for Food (or was it oil for palaces?) debacle made it clear that Iraq had bought off key Security Council votes with billion$ of oil vouchers. Bigger than Enron. They were also paying big bucks to Palestinians willing to blow themselves up as long as they turned lots of Israeli schoolkids into red goo in the process. Did you recall the perpetrator of the Achille Lauro hijacking was later captured and released by Italy... because he was traveling on an Iraqi diplomatic passport?

The first mistake was Bush I getting us involved in Iraq. The second mistake was not finishing the job and then getting out circa 1990.

There was lots of idiocy from both sides when Bush/Cheney went in to finish the job. One lefty friend of mine was convinced Bush only wanted to depose Saddam because he was bringing universal healthcare and women's rights into Iraq. What a great leader.

[Ben Emery]

George,
You are right that it has been traditionally the democratic party that has entangled the US in military actions in the 20th century. Wilson, FDR, Truman, Johnson, and then the shift happened. The shift was the republican party with Nixon abandoned their non intervention platform and policies. Since 1981 the illegal actions belong to all administrations Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton, W Bush, and now Obama have all used our military in acts of war with out the legal(US) declaration from congress.

[Gregory]

Ben forgets Kennedy & Viet Nam.

[Ben Emery]

Greg,
If we are being honest I believe it was Truman administration that started MAAG and Eisenhower continued it as the French were ending their occupation (1955). The first American casualties in Vietnam were in 1959. JFK continued the policy and was building up our presence in Vietnam but it wasn't until the lie of Gulf of Tonkin that set up the stage for the fledged illegal immoral military action. What right does a sovereign nation have to occupy and colonize another sovereign nation?

Don't you find all of this a bit disturbing that the western world has been on the wrong side of tyranny for centuries?

[George Rebane]

BenE 910am - Eisenhower's continuation of MAAG??! "... first American casualties in Vietnam were in 1959."??! These are the devastating repartees of the 'all warmongers are Republicans because they need war to control the people' faction? So noted.

[A Facebook User]

George,
As you know Obama signed the biggest defense budget in US history. As we get further and further down the road of blind nationalism/ exceptionalism to justify the expansion of the American military empire through unnecessary interventions it becomes a form of control over the people. The problem is partisanship overrides objectivity and we have a tendency to contort our principles to defend policies. The problem arises from neither party leadership wants to nip their bread n butter military industrial complex contracts for their districts so we are in a perpetual growth cycle. A politician that proposes or votes for bills that will kill jobs will be a one term representative. We have spent $1.3 trillion on two occupations of sovereign nations since 2001 without a tax to pay for it and that cost is projected to be well over $3 trillion before all is said and done. Our resources are taken from domestic use and used elsewhere. We are now being told that domestic infrastructure and social safety net spending needs to be cut due to the lack of money. It is the same recipe that most empires succumb too. It has been a strategy of control used for centuries. Very rarely do we see the upper class serve in the ranks of the infantry/in the line of fire or see their subsides/ tax loopholes end to pay for war.

MAAG stands for Military Assistance and Advisory Group. I couldn't remember the name of the paper that first brought this to my attention but I pulled up this link and skimmed over it. It seems to reinforce what I remember from my original source. Actually my dad might be a military product of this program. He was in special forces during Korea.
https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/MAAG2.html

First American casualties in Vietnam 1959

http://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=AssignmentExt&ID=469169

"Bright blue skies above the National Mall today belied the solemnity of the ceremony commemorating the first two American combat casualties of the Vietnam War.
"On this date 50 years ago, two men lost their lives in a country that most of us here in the United States had never heard of at the time," said Jan C. Scruggs, founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund. "The deaths of U.S. Army military advisors Major Dale Buis and Master Sergeant Chester Ovnand marked the beginning of a lengthy war, which became a very divisive event for our society."

[Gregory]

Kennedy and LBJ, with McNamara being the common agent, were the architects of the Viet Nam debacle. Democrats all. The Gulf of Tonkin fraud was Democratic as well.

The two Americans killed in Viet Nam in '59 were not combat troops.

[George Rebane]

FacebookUser 1139am - Thank you for the explanations about what surprised me in my 910am. I know full well what MAAG and the incidence of first casualties in Vietnam were; it's their use by BenE that was more than remarkable.

BTW, on RR you are viewed as a sackhead (q.v.) for not revealing your true identity. This blog is not a forum for sackheads.

[Gregory]

"What right does a sovereign nation have to occupy and colonize another sovereign nation?"

One, while France was a colonial power in the region, we were not. We were there by treaty, SEATO, of which South Viet Nam was a signatory. North Viet Nam, a client state of the USSR, really was attacking and undermining the South.

SEATO was a cold war nuclear umbrella that bound the US to treat attacks on members as an attack on the US, only nuking Hanoi was not an option. So we had McNamara's war to prove to the USSR they couldn't get away with it, while we wouldn't use so much force as to provoke overt acts by the Soviets.

A few carriers anchored outside of Hanoi could have pounded the North into submission with impunity, as long as the Soviets stayed away. But it was thought the Soviets would respond in kind and then we'd have that hot war instead. So many my generation were just thrown into the meat grinder.

Sorry, Ben. That was Kennedy and LBJ. Nixon was just continuing their policy, and eventually wound it down.

"Burma, Thailand, India, Japan, the Philippines and obviously Laos and Cambodia are among those whose security would be threatened if the Red Tide of Communism overflowed into Vietnam." SENATOR John F. Kennedy, 1956

[Gregory]

George, if you follow the links in the upper right corner of "A Facebook User"'s linked profile,
http://profile.typepad.com/d101160081210447627

it's clear A Facebook User is Ben Emery.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 1206pm - If so, why do you think BenE is playing such games?

[Gregory]

It was so poorly hidden I assumed he wasn't expecting anonymity.

[THEMIKEYMCD]

Would be interesting to see "a facebook user" thoughts on Ron Paul; especially RP's economic beliefs. [Ron Paul appears to agree with "a facebook user" on militarism 'issues.']

I would expect "a facebook user" to believe that (one of) the only virtuous purposes of the military is to support the treasury department... the taxation of the rich :).

[Douglas Keachie]

Of course the military industrial complex had nothing to do with the Vietnam War, After all, they never made a dime off of it...hehe..hawwhaw.hohoho..chi minh...my God how the money rolls in!

[Douglas Keachie]

How many agencies?

Now open the phone book, and see, just locally, how many people they are serving. I'm guessing two to three hundred agencies for 30,000,000 to 40,000,000 people. What is needed is a simple guide as to which agencies serve what needs, for how many people, and which people, at what dollar amounts. Ought to be on the opening page of www.ca.gov as the first link. The second link can be who is paying for it, broken down by zip code and , if you like, claimed ethnicity.

[A Facebook User]

Hey Guys,
Facebook user is Ben Emery and I signed in through facebook. Out of my control I seem to be logged in and out at RR. When trying to go through typepad it would not allow me to post a comment so I logged in through facebook. Why would you think I am trying to hide who I am? It was obvious to me that I was answering George's questions. I assumed logging in through facebook would use my name. You can put your Nancy Drew sleuthing skills back in their bag for the time being.

Greg,
You're right the Republican Party has never done anything wrong, it was foolish of me to think you could have an honest conversation about an issue. I guess Jan C. Scruggs, founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund has it wrong. Next you will tell me McKinley wasn't a republican either and also the Spanish attacked the USS Maine.

[A Facebook User]

Mickey,
I do agree with Ron Paul on the Federal Reserve, Patriot/ FISA Acts, NDAA, Real ID, cannabis, and much of his policies regarding the use of our military. Our military has been used to secure resources for private industry for over a century. This is not why men and women join the military. As a true believer of free markets I would expect you to consider military intervention/ force/ intimidation a form of distortion of the market? Also the further away from the United States our military is used to secure our so-called "interests" the more expensive it becomes to maintain. This leads to more and more money/ investment leaving the country, which leads to less and less for domestic uses. As I said earlier this has led to the fall of many empires and we are the downward spiral becoming irrelevant due to our unwillingness to change as a nation. I contribute this to the corporatist/ fascist faction controlling our government over the last 30 years. Preserving the status quo is also a very conservative quality. I find it interesting how you cannot find correlation between the Reagan Revolution and our exploding debt, crippled manufacturing, crumbling infrastructure, out of control cost increases for health insurance and higher education, increased inequality, and just plain decline as a nation. But that is what partisan goggles does to a person I guess.

Last point on American "interests". Our misguided unjust short term gains led directly to our worst international diplomatic problems. Here are a few people that were in our best interests for a short period of time.

Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi
Saddam Hussein
Osama bin Laden
Manuel Noriega

Ben Emery

[George Rebane]

BenE 915am - "... preserving the status quo is also a very conservative quality." That, of course, is a matter of great debate. We recall that it was the classical liberals who sought to overthrow the established autocracies and change the centuries old status quo. It is the collectivists of all stripes who want the state to grow again into the autocracies of yore, and have shown in the last century of what kind of human misery they are capable of inflicting.

[Gregory]

"You're right the Republican Party has never done anything wrong"

How you tortured that out of anything I've ever written, I've not a clue, and if it were true, I'd have been a Republican at some point of my life.

Ben, get a grip.

[Gregory]

"Yes, I think most regular right wingers who comment on Ruminations are fascists and corporatists."

Ben Emery, your ignorance is astounding. You've obviously never met a fascist, nor learned enough to understand what one is.

Your vision of Republicans being the root of all evil in the US is due to your rose colored glasses blinding you to the role that JFK (who you conveniently left out of your list) and LBJ (not to mention FDR) in 20th century wars, and even with the Obama administration we have the incredible belief that they don't even need Congress' approval to bomb another country as long as the UN approves, but, if I recall correctly, the Republicans in the House and Senate didn't approve.

WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam. Democrats were Presidents and led us into them. Not entirely without good reason, but a different end to WWI and an avoidance of the Treaty of Versailles may well have avoided Hitler and WWII, Korea and Indochina.

Then there was Clinton bombing civilians in Serbia. About the only 20th century Democratic President who wasn't a warmonger was Carter, who was also perhaps the least effective chief executive of the past 100 years. Maybe longer.

You claim to want an honest discussion, but I don't think you have the knowledge or temperment to recognize one when you see it.

[George Rebane]

Agree with Gregory's 417pm; and I would add for the 'independent' reader that looking at the continuing confusion (ignorance?) of the progressives about the fascist ideology and form of governance is beyond astounding. Confusing fascism with classical liberalism is the folly of historical ignoramuses, or perfidious people who hope their audience is so encumbered. No fascist has ever been the student of Bastiat, von Mises, von Hayek, or Friedman.

[billy T]

Well, world wide socialism with the greenies in charge might be fascism or it could be just a power grab disguised as plain ole socialism. The liberal ignoramuses never sleep until we are all socialists. Its a matter of fairness. www.foxnews.com/world/2012/04/20/tab-for-uns-rio-summit-trillions-per-year-in-taxes-transfers-and-price-hikes/?test=latestnews

[Michael Anderson]

George Rebane, 6:33 pm, 4/20/12: "No fascist has ever been the student of Bastiat, von Mises, von Hayek, or Friedman."

Of course, this is completely unprovable since you have not interviewed every fascist since Bastiat, von Mises, von Hayek, and Friedman came into prominence. But I digress.

Is not one prominent aspect of fascism the merging of corporate and state interests, such that individual liberty is suppressed? And cannot the argument be made, at least in a very general fashion, that some of the idiosyncrasies of our ancient Republic have allowed state and corporate bodies to meld in an unholy and undemocratic manner?

[Gregory]

MA, I think George was thinking in a sense that is more "disciple" than "student", just attending classes or reading the books.

I sure would prefer the Democrats to return to their more libertarian roots; the two major parties are both Federalist at heart and we need at least one effective Anti-Federalist party as a balance.

We need the Whigs back :) Maybe the Libertarian Party can go through a rebranding...

State and Corporate bodies melding? Like McNamara going from CEO of FoMoCo to Sec'y of Defense under Kennedy and LBJ? Or former Gov. Corzine continuing to bundle money for Obama despite having presided over the destruction of billion$ at his MF Global kleptocracy?

[Michael Anderson]

Gregory wrote: "...the two major parties are both Federalist at heart and we need at least one effective Anti-Federalist party as a balance."

I agree completely.

And you will not be able to drag me onto the front lines of defending the Democratic Party against their war-mongering ways, because I also agree completely with your timeline and attributions regarding modern-day Democrats being a lot more responsible for 20th century wars than Republicans. Of course, now we are into the 21st century and GWB has set the new "war standard," but I have no doubt that the Democratic Party will be working hard to catch up, if they can
manage to maintain any branches of the federal government whatsoever during this continuing agonizing economic crisis.

And yes, let's form a new Whig Party, but this time w/o the divisiveness. Let bygones be bygones.

[A Facebook User]

Greg,
You seem a bit defensive of your unwillingness to look at history honesty. And it was easy to my conclusion about you.

I listed every major military action during 20th century by democratic administrations but that wasn't good enough for you. Then I educated you on Eisenhower and first casualties of Vietnam but I was wrong as is the founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund according to you because it implicated Eisenhower. I wrote about the lie Gulf of Tonkin and you ignored it.

Reagan ignored congress and ran an illegal arms trade with sworn enemy to fund an illegal war along with setting up the drug trade with central/ south America. You probably have no problem with it. Bush I turned on his friend Saddam and then Clinton continued punishing the people of Iraq. This same group of war mongers of the Reagan years filled the Bush II administration and were the key advisers in our illegal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

For the record Germany, Italy, and Japan declared war on the United States

[Gregory]

"Reagan ignored congress and ran an illegal arms trade with sworn enemy to fund an illegal war along with setting up the drug trade with central/ south America."

Reagan ran it? And here me and the rest of the country thought it was that Ollie North guy! The Congress gave North immunity so he could testify without invoking the 5th, and North disappointed mightily. The funniest thing about that hearing was that North, despite being a criminal having been given a free pass, came off as being so much more honorable than his Congressional inquisitors.

You are a keeper of odd knowledge, aren't you?

Sorry to burst your balloon, but I never voted for Reagan.

[Gregory]

"You seem a bit defensive of your unwillingness to look at history honesty[sic]. And it was easy [sic] to my conclusion about you."

Ben... I now understand what honesty means to you... coming to the same conclusion as you have. Anyone who is honest would believe as Ben Emery does.

Amazing.

[Gregory]

MA, maybe folks like Ben can help pull the regressive "progresssives" into the Greens, and the Democratic Party can eventually return to their 19th century Jeffersonian anti-Federalist roots.

Maybe not.

[A Facebook User]

Greg,
No, honesty means seeing the world with the goggles off. So Reagan had nothing to do with Iran Contra in your opinion? Amazing

You don't believe that the Vietnam occupation was started in the 50's but only with Kennedy and Johnson? Eisenhower having "Military Advisers" who were killed doesn't count? You also believe that Nixon did nothing but try to end it. That is being partisan dishonest. Nixon/ Kissinger threw a monkey wrench in the Paris peace talks and Nixon went into Cambodia among many other horrific things.

WAKE UP and smell the Military Industrial Complex, it owns both major political parties.

[Gregory]

"So Reagan had nothing to do with Iran Contra in your opinion? Amazing."

You claimed Reagan "ran an illegal arms trade with sworn enemy to fund an illegal war along with setting up the drug trade with central/ south America." That was not the case.

I realize this has reached mythic truthful status in some quarters, but the Democratic House and Senate that Reagan was saddled with did their best to get evidence for this and came up very short; in the end, all they had was Col. Oliver North, who was a loose cannon the Congress gave immunity to, and he apparently told the truth so the immunity held with criminal convictions overturned thanks to the Congressional testimony. Where did Ben Emery get his facts? The same orifice as is usual?

[Gregory]

"You don't believe that the Vietnam occupation was started in the 50's but only with Kennedy and Johnson? Eisenhower having "Military Advisers" who were killed doesn't count? You also believe that Nixon did nothing but try to end it. That is being partisan dishonest. Nixon/ Kissinger threw a monkey wrench in the Paris peace talks and Nixon went into Cambodia among many other horrific things."

Ben, your reading comprehension and understanding is so low and your hate so high it really makes it hard to engage you. Like Keachie, you can erect straw men with bizarre leaps of illogic faster than anyone can tear them down.

Partisan? I voted for McGovern.