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05 June 2012


Ryan Mount

My Dad used to tell me, "you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."

I want to be sensitive to discrimination of this kind. Discrimination based on any arbitrary category really is stupid, but it's also illegal. However as the CATO article you've attached points out, wage inequality is not a simple proposition. It sometimes does involve discrimination, but it also involves choice, like leaving the workforce for child rearing. And with today's rapid evolution of the workplace, being out just a couple of years (for anyone) can damage one's earning potential.

Us GenXers don't really appreciate comments from a Boomer like Senator Reid. This constant fighting and demonization of your opposition is quite fatiguing. Us GenXers are free agents and have a different perspective of things: often we work from home (those that can) and take an active role in things like changing poopy diapers. So I would be quite interested in seeing these 70% numbers 10 years from now when we reach our full earning potential. But then again, in the past 12 years, I've worked for 3 Women CEOs including my current job. All of whom where/are amazing. So there you go.

Some people need to build a fire just so they can scream "fire!" and then so s/he can put it out.

billy T

Mr. Mount, I agree with your father. And the squeaky wheel does indeed get the grease. I have heard many a person who have said "I am worth more than that!", (income) and seek employment elsewhere. That may be true, but I kinda of lean to the theory that I may be worth more than that, but I am worth what I am paid, be it 6 bucks an hour or 66 bucks an hour. My worth has little to do with it in a sense. My pay is directly proportionate to the worth my employer places on me or the position, be it raking leaves or rubbing elbows with the rich and famous. Yes, there is some discrimination in the workplace no doubt. Human nature insures that. Equal pay for equal work sounds dandy, but other factors come in to play. Suppose two employees (0ne female, one male hired on the same date) receive a 3% cost of living raise every year and have the same job. The much brighter and capable woman than her male counterpart makes less today than her male counterpart. Why? Because the female co-worker left to raise a child for 4 years or so and missed out on the cost of living increases and some merit based raises when she returned to the workplace. Not always the case and not the sole reason, but a small factor in a complex situation. But more to the topic at hand, I was reading the Union's Town Talk comments late last night. I noticed the Scott Walker recall issue came up and one poster commented "Wisconsin? No, Wisconsin is a terrible place that is anti-women and the Republicans keep voting for anti-women, anti equal pay bills". My paraphrase. Say what? Wisconsin is solid Democrat blue state where Obama creamed the Republicans by about 17 points in 2008 and the birthplace of many social initiatives like its neighbor Minnesota. In fact it has been 28 years since a Republican carried WI in a presidential election. Where do they come with this anti women stuff? Ah yes, Dr. Rebane pointed out that this comes out like clockwork and he is 100% correct. Sure as day follows night. Back to Mr. Mount's observation: A plumber was doing a job on a big fancy house. The plumber worked about 10 minutes and submitted a bill of $75.00 to the lady of the house. The incredulous woman fumed "I am a corporate lawyer making $350.00/hr and you work here ten minutes and charge me 75 dollars. That is more than I make!" The plumber replied, "Ya, when I was a corporate lawyer I only 350 dollars an hour as well"

A Facebook User

Your tired logic has come and gone. Women get paid $0.70 to a man's $1.00 for same work and same qualifications. I agree with Ryan M. about the generation gap on this issue.

There are huge numbers of Lilly Ledbetter's but they don't realize it and then there are women who do realize it but are terrified to rock the boat in fear of losing their jobs and means to support their families.


Martha Burk: When did you go to work for Goodyear?

Lilly Ledbetter: I was hired in 1979. There were 5 of us in the group, 2 female.

How did you find out after 19 years that you were making less than the men doing the same job and in some cases with less seniority?

An anonymous note — a little piece of paper with my salary and 3 male co-workers. I knew it was correct, because my numbers were there to the penny. The first thing that hit me was devastation, humiliation. Then I thought about how many hours of overtime I had worked and not been compensated for what I was legally entitled to, and how hard it had been on my family struggling to pay the mortgage, education, doctor bills. We had done without quite a bit. And this was not right. I didn’t know how I could through my 12 hour shift.

billy T

Getting up to speed, more women currently obtain college diplomas than men. The recession has hurt more men than women (ages 25-45) and manufacturing jobs have been declining for years. The housing bubble has put the hurts big time on the male dominated construction trades. At my place of employment, my male co-worker makes more than I and less than his wife who works as a ER nurse. So, who are the dummies?? Women are smart enough to make their presence and dominance known in the health care field (as well as recent forays into chemistry and micro biology fields) with good pay and benefits and sectors that are growing and growing. So, who's the dummies? My friend's wife working in a nice hospital or us boyz out there on a extremely windy snowy day freezing our toes off and sweating like a stuffed pig in August? Just listened to a speech by Xerox's Top Dog yesterday. She was raised a black kid from the bad part of town. Her mother never made more than 4k a year. Yet her mother scrubbed floors literally and put her through private schools for all her k-12 education. You might say the CEO had three strikes against her. Extreme poverty, black, and female. At least that would be the script some would write for her. I would say she overcame huge challenges and embraced opportunities and forged ahead. Opportunities verses Entitlement. Challenges vs Barriers. Things are changing daily. Any man who has even the smallest crumb of wisdom knows Ma holds our society together. And when Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. The future looks bright for women and not so bright for blue collar males. As William F. Buckley once quipped during a debate on the influence of the 60's Women's Movement "I do not recall one woman voting for the 19th Amendment."

Ryan Mount

Most large companies have normalized pay schedules (called "bands" at most places) for their employees. And then those schedules have very specific criteria for performance evaluations and hiring practices.

As a hiring manager, and an admitted GenXer, I am more concerned with a candidate's understanding PCI DSS regulations and standards, for example, than a person's gender or race or whatever. I would be a complete idiot and damage both my company and my shareholder value if I engaged in such discriminatory practices. And I'm just talking about lost productivity not the exposure to Civil Rights lawsuits.

So arbitrary discrimination isn't just illegal, it's really stupid. I really can't underscore the word "stupid" enough. However there are justified forms of discrimination, although we don't call it that. Should a paraplegic be allowed to fight fires?

Brad Croul

View from a conservative?



Honest leadership?
Philadelphia Federation of Teachers Union... tax dollars hardly at work.
Some 'interesting' school employees who are covered by PFT’s teachers’ contract:

3 farmers
6 alarms systems dispatch operators
1 architectural designer
3 asbestos abatement foremen
1 cable network producer
2 climate support assistants
49 community relation liaisons
1 contract clerk
1 electrical drafter
1 environmental services clerk
2 fire safety specialists
1 industrial nurse
1 lead workers’ compensation clerk
1 lifeguard
2 motivation coordinators
1 pest control foreman
3 records center clerks, 1 supervisor
2 retirement clerks, 1 technician
3 serious incident desk recorders, 1 stat analyst
1 tort claims representative
5 transportation mechanic foremen


Ryan Mount

3 farmers? What the...

And, what's an industrial nurse? Do they take the rectal temperature of a furnace?

This is list of employees is disturbing. Anyone willing to justify (apologize) how these operations and support staff are necessary for a public school system that is starving for funds?

billy T

Mr Mount, the public education enemy #1 is the lady that ran the DC schools for a brief stint before she got the ax. DC had an administrative budget of 1 billion smackers. Not school and teacher budget, the overseers budget. The lady went in and cut staff and found out the administration of the DC schools ran more efficiently on a 380 million dollar budget. She fired school principles that were no up to the task, including her own daughter's principle. She fired poor performing teachers and replaced them with teachers that could innovate and perform. Test scores went up, drop out rate decreased. She was shown the door. Heard she is living in the Sacramento area, much to the chagrin of some local posters.

billy T

Dr. Rebane, interesting article. The only part that pricked my curiosity was the picture you choose at the top of your post. Where you saying something about Nancy when writing about The Liberal Mind-Women are Dumb? Is that Maxine Waters in the background?

Douglas Keachie

For those clue souls out there, the unions often serve to set up contracts with different terms and conditions for different classes of employees, and this is just a dumb claim, made convenient by the fact that they are all negotiated by one union. Whoopi fluffernutter dew, get your poorly trained pocket pooch off my lawn.

billy T

Wonder what is the pay scale for male and females in charter schools? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/06/us-usa-campaign-primaries-educationrefor-idUSBRE8550XM20120606

Douglas Keachie

If you type in "test scores" here:


you get nothing.

If you do so here:


You get a lot. In fact, if you go to each school site and look at the SARC, you get great details. As an example from the School for the Arts we find:

"Achievement (Assessment Results)
Growth (Assessment Results)
Behavioral Indicators (e.g. suspension, expulsion, grades, and attendance data)
Climate Indicators (Satisfaction Surveys)
b. Achievement Gap Analysis
Overall, our CST results saw a dip from 2009 - 2010, including drop in our API. The largest drop we saw was in
math, with low scores in advanced algebra across all grade levels, with mean CST scores of 279.9 (3% profiecient),
273.8 (6% proficient) and 267.2 (9% proficient) in 9th 10th and 11th grade, respectively. However, we did see
excellent scores in higher level math (HS Summative), with a mean CST score of 363.2 (77% proficient). In ELA,
the outlook is more positive as mean CST scores were 350.6 (51% proficient), 340.7 (43% proficient) and 338.6
(45% proficient) in 9th, 10th and 11th grade, respectively. Encouraging also is the fact that a high number of
students (84%, 71% and 74% of our 9th, 10th, and 11th graders respectively) were Basic or above, which shows
that if we develop focus on those students in the basic level in ELA, we have a chance to move those students into
the proficient range. Similar to ELA, in our Science department, we have may students in the basic or above range
(53% in 9th grade Physics, 67% in 10th grade Biology, 54% in 11th grade Chemistry and 75% in 12th grade
Physics). We saw the most success on the CST Biology test with 43% of our students proficient or advanced. The
same goes for our Social Sciences tests with 59% of our 10th graders taking Modern World basic or above and
65% of our 11th grade U.S History students being basic or above. We continue to have positive results on the
CAHSEE, with 66% of our students passing both sections in the 10th grade, and 92% passing by the 12th grade."


I can find NO primary evidence that Rhee did anything good, other than perhaps encourage cheating, by teachers, anxious to save their jobs.

George Rebane

billyT 1055am - my best guess is that Nancy is smart, and Maxine is just plain ignorant (and maybe stupid to boot). The point here is how liberals assess the intellectual capacity and decision making capabilities of the fair sex.

Douglas Keachie

The charter school movement is alive and well, and is a very neat end run by the upper middle class to go back to schools where everyone is above average, and tracking can be customized to the students. This works really nicely for the upscale communities, which can then afford to enrich the curriculum, just for their kids. Translating the same model down into the ghetto just doesn't work, because there is no cash and available parents to make it go. Enlisting the homeschoolers who want to cram their version of God down their kid's throats as allies is rather hypocritical, but it is happening. Placing a school up a toney LA canyon, miles from public transit and providing no public school buses, works really well to keep out the riffraff. "Yo, mama, you can send your kid there, IF you can figure out how to do the time and money necessary for the daily to and fro. All the other moms/dads are chaperoning to Camp YondaWonda, too bad you can't afford to come."

Would I send my kid to a local charter school? You betcha, survival of the fittest, too few dollars as teachers to send kid to a real high end private school, and know kid would be more comfortable with friends from the neighborhood.. Would I kid myself about what a noble thing I was doing? I think not.

billy T

Mr. Keachie, glad to keep you busy this morning. I sent one kid to Forest Charter in Nevada City (A small town on a West Coast State). One kid loved NU and one hated it. I told them both to give NU a try and get involved. But one of my dear precious baby girls also got claustrophobia in crowded hallways and was lost in a crowd. She pleaded with me to pull her out. I finally did after her grades suddenly droped to the gutter. At Forest in smaller classes and one on one with the teachers, she shined, loved going to school and it was her niche. Nothing to do with public schools in the least, but rather, more of her personality and environment needed for learning. Raise two kids the same age the same way and one like NU and the other hated it. Go figure. Did not cost me a dime either way, except Forest gave us funds to purchase books on subjects not available or more advanced. Well, Keach, I got to lay down and ice my knee again. Had surgery yesterday so I can't kick you around today, LOL. And, yes, I type this drug free as I am yet to take a pain pill. Its my stubborn "stick it to the man" streak or just plain stupidity.

Douglas Keachie

Sorry about your knee,I have to be extra careful these days to keep from hyper-extending mine. NU is good practice for schools like Berkeley, where school class sizes can even go over 1,000, and you never meet the professor, just the TA's (teaching assistants, underpaid graduate students).

billy T

Tanks Doug, tanks a rocket. In news about dumb women, imagine Maxine Waters as the top Democrat on the House Finance Committee when Barney retires. Waters/Dodd Bills or would that be Dodd/Waters Bills? Well, we will just have to live with it....or ...will we? http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/231241-waters-case-will-proceed

Douglas Keachie

The brightest boys on the planet brought us into the current Fiscal Crisis, and most of the grunt work in Congress is done by the staffs anyways.

Here's a problem that stumped fellow poll workers until I steeped in.

Remaining unused ballots are numbered for:

Dems 7501 -7550
Repubs 6482 - 6499
Libs 8264 -8299

Can you figure out the total number of unused ballots, of the three listed? Answer this afternoon, no spoiling this, Gregomeister, but you can add it to your list of flip tricks to satisfy your inner needs.

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