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12 August 2012

Comments

Paul Emery

Just a reminder the only Republican to balance the budget in the last 50 years was Eisenhower in 1958. Johnson and Clinton did it several times.

billy T

TomK, how you doing buddy? I think high paid CEOs are like actors. We pay their exorbitant compensation at the box office or when we rent a DVD. Thanks goodness the unions representing the under paid indentured servant struggling under the fat cats thumbs have spoken up. Power to the people! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-17/new-york-times-ceo-gets-1-million-salary-signing-bonus.html

Russ Steele

Paul@06:17PM

Paul why do you make such statements that can be fact checked on the Internet. Craig Steiner has done the research:

Time and time again, anyone reading the mainstream news or reading articles on the Internet will read the claim that President Clinton not only balanced the budget, but had a surplus. This is then used as an argument to further highlight the fiscal irresponsibility of the federal government under the Bush administration.

The claim is generally made that Clinton had a surplus of $69 billion in FY1998, $123 billion in FY1999 and $230 billion in FY2000 . In that same link, Clinton claimed that the national debt had been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years, presumably FY1998, FY1999, and FY2000--though, interestingly, $360 billion is not the sum of the alleged surpluses of the three years in question ($69B + $123B + $230B = $422B, not $360B).

While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it's curious to see Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets:

Fiscal
Year Year
Ending National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion


As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.

Keep in mind that President Bush took office in January 2001 and his first budget took effect October 1, 2001 for the year ending September 30, 2002 (FY2002). So the $133.29 billion deficit in the year ending September 2001 was Clinton's. Granted, Bush supported a tax refund where taxpayers received checks in 2001. However, the total amount refunded to taxpayers was only $38 billion . So even if we assume that $38 billion of the FY2001 deficit was due to Bush's tax refunds which were not part of Clinton's last budget, that still means that Clinton's last budget produced a deficit of 133.29 - 38 = $95.29 billion.

Clinton clearly did not achieve a surplus and he didn't leave President Bush with a surplus.

Now let's see your research to refute the myth of the Clinton Surplus.

billy T

Mr. Steele, "that still means that Clinton's last budget produced a deficit of 133.29 - 38 = $95.29 billion." Hey, its only money. 95.29 billion is just a rounding error in the Obama budget. If Obama could ever come close to a half trillion budget deficit, it would be time to pop the champagne corks.

TomKenworth

"mK 241pm - there is no "fluid dynamic" here. The customers of ALL corporations ALWAYS pay ALL the corporations' taxes. To think otherwise is to evince some fluid on the brain."

You obviously missed my point. When what would have been a customers sees a price they feel is too high, they become a non customer. The prices set by a corporation are not just fixed, and include the taxes to be paid on profits. Those prices go up and down, trying to hit a balance between the amount of sales volume and pricing that brings in the maximum return. In a literal sense you are correct, but the prices set and the amount of taxes paid are subject to your famous invisible hand of the market.

Do you suppose Romney picked Ryan the same way some hypothesize Obama picked Biden, as life insurance?

billy T

TomKenworth: you made a great point there. That is why Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer in America. If I can get a soap dish at Wal-Mart or one in Nevada City and I think the one in Nevada City is too high.....if AirVietman can fly me to Denver cheaper than AirBolivia, I let my wallet do the talking and my keyboard do the walking.

George Rebane

TomK 959pm - It doesn't matter if a customer becomes a "non customer" for a certain corporation. From whatever corporation he winds up buying from, he pays their taxes.

Re Biden - I don't think that Obama needed a Biden with his constituents. He could have picked a 2x4 with a face painted on it, and they would still have elected him. Come to think of it, he did pick a 2x4 with a face painted on it, but that one also had a mouth.

Paul Emery

This chart makes it pretty clear. One of Bush's campaign pledges was to return money to the people because there was a surplus-you must recall the famous "It's your money" campaign speech by the schrub himself.
http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/spending_chart_1997_2017USb_G0f

Craig Steiner is hardly a credible source Russ.

By the way, I didn't hear you speak out about this during the primary when Newt was bragging about balancing the budget while speaker of the house? In fact no one challenged him from either side.

TomKenworth

George, I am becoming a non customer for both Directv and Dish Network as I explore DigitalPath at 6 megabytes down. My ATT DSL is not good enough for live streaming of Fox 40 news, just tried it. Now to try out over the air antenna with booster, and possibly putting up a 70 foot tall tower which I acquired a couple of years back for free and a lot of back breaking labor. We will be doing the same for some food items, and some of our propane, as solar aqua comes on line.

Gregory

“today I’m pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office. This will not be easy. It will require us to make difficult decisions and face challenges we’ve long neglected. But I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay — and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control.”

President Obama, Feb 23, 2009

billy T

Dems dancing in the street? Just one short week ago they were creaming on themselves. They were going to unleash their shock and awe. I was excited that we were finally going to have a discussion on the budget, the debt, and entitlement reform. But, noooooooooooo! Ole Joe came along and opened his mouth. The Dems got distracted and have even pulled ole Joe from the stage. Now we are back to "stuck on Bush". Thought Forward was the Dem campaign slogan. I must confess I was enjoying the carpet bombing of Ryan before Joe came back from vacation. I especially liked the ad of Ryan pushing Nancy Pelosi off the cliff.

TomKenworth

Unforeseeable Consequences:


The Tea Party elected the Do Nothing Congress in 2010 with one objective:

~To Get Obama Out of the White House.~

And the devil be damned if it totally screwed up the economy to do so. Nice self fulfilling prophecy , fellas, the Chinese and Indians cheered you on, to get three more years in which to grow stronger.

Greg turns off at The Willo, so he misses the sign a short distance further on the left, "Obama Must Go."

TomKenworth

This guy does a much mmore thorough job than I have time for. A very nice summary of Republican Tea Party Talking points can be found here:

http://rmadisonj.blogspot.com/2012/08/get-life.html?showComment=1345303328338#c1042895148837266240

billy T

"fellas, the Chinese and Indians cheered you on" Tom, I must be in a time warp in my Kenworth hauling logs. I loved playing Cowboys and Indians. Now its Chinese and Injuns? My company has service centers around the globe. Live in little ole Rough and Ready? You pick up the phone and get The East Coast in the morning or Canada. Later in the day you get Mexico. Special problems you get the Philipines. Most people think they are getting India, but it is just Monterry or the Phillipines usually, sometimes other remote places. I can testify that those Philippinos are sharp as a tack. They have no sense of humor and struggle with words that have a F in them and tell you their name is Andrew or Sam when it is really Andwujuwasmtixjournia or the like. But, they are better than the Americans we hire and can troubleshoot and SOLVE like there is no tommorrow. They solve problems which is the bottom line. One time I called and got a bad apple. I told him to quit asking all these unneccasry questions, shut the f@#k up, take the cotton out of his ears, and do this and that for me. He asked for my employee number and then wanted to speak to my supervisor/manager/big wig. I replied you are speaking to the supervisor/manager/big wig and do as I tell ya or patch me through to your supervisor you dumb shit. He was the only one that was not polite. Guess he was having a bad day.. Them lady problem solvers are the best, even through they have no sense of humor and struggle saying Franklil or Felix.

TomKenworth

BillyT, I think you blended together two separate trains of thought, makes an interesting mix, but what's your point, as George is so fond of saying, right after a person has made their point.

TomKenworth

Why shouldn't we be Happy Dancing?

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/11/677861/romney-ryan-buget/?mobile=nc

AlwaysRight of the old The Union days must be spinning in his grave.

billy T

Sorry Tom. I am at work today. Kinda hard to keep this Peterbuilt on this wet dirt narrow steep road and post at the same time. I was referring to the call centers or China or India or taxes or pushing Nancy over the cliff in her wheelchair or Joe Foot in Mouth Biden or Mediscare or DigitalPath (how can anyone live with just 6 mgs down?), or Direct TV or consumer choice or Big Wig compensation or Clinton's budget or .....hey , its all Bush's fault and that ties in to every subject. Weren't we talking about dancing and doing the KVMR jig or Syria, or was that a different thread?? Ah, never mind. I never had one and I never will. Everything has changed since I have gone buy sexual. Hate buying it, which fits in with consumer choice and customer loyality I suppose.

Paul Emery

There is no doubt that this election is essentially over. The addition of Paul "every sperm is sacred" Ryan to the lineup eliminates all but the hard core bible thumpers to the party. Amazing how such a vulnerable and ineffective President can be re-elected due to the lack of a reasonable option. It's like the Repubs have a secret meeting to fin a way they to surely lose. The Dems are polishing up their heavy artillery ant the Repubs will have no counter.

Paul Emery

Oh yes, documentation

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr212

This same idea was soundly rejected by the voters in Mississippi

"The so-called "personhood" initiative was rejected by more than 55 percent of voters, falling far short of the threshold needed for it to be enacted. If it had passed, it was virtually assured of drawing legal challenges because it conflicts with the Supreme Court's 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that established a legal right to abortion. Supporters of the initiative wanted to provoke a lawsuit to challenge the landmark ruling.

The measure divided the medical and religious communities and caused some of the most ardent abortion opponents, including Republican Gov. Haley Barbour, to waver with their support....."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/08/mississippi-personhood-amendment_n_1082546.html

Todd Juvinall

Romney/Ryan by seven. Live it love it watch it.

TomKenworth

BillyT 10:33 what are you burning i the Peterbuilt? ATT DSL has now crawled to a slow 650kbit/second, despite advertised up to 3 megs. They are planning everybody into the U-Verse Gulag, and I suppose we'll all get a slight uptick at the time of the changeover. Youtube used to work just fine, not any more.

TomKenworth

This is my favorite speed test. Never used to have a single hesitation, now it is crapola: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9b3ZZywQvg

TomKenworth

"Romney/Ryan by seven. Live it love it watch it"

That's funny, reminds me of AlwaysRight still pulling for McCain on the afternoon of election day.

Paul Emery

Yeah Tom

Todd lives in Happy Republican World and it will make him feel good to believe that up to election time. Then he will blame the press or the uneducated masses when Obama easily wins. Everybody is entitled to the pursuit of happiness so I have no problem with that.

What the Dems, with Republican support, have succeeded in doing is pushing the Repubbys far to the right leaving the middle to Obama. Americans don't support rapid change which is actually a conservative trait (resisting change). This will be an easy win once the campaigns settle into their message.

billy T

Paul, Repubs leaving the middle open for Obama? What planet do you live in? The middle has never been lib terrority. Just cause libbies make up 20% of the voting population decade after decade does not mean the middle is open in this race. Yes, Romney could pull a Joe Biden and sink his own ship. One never knows. The more high school drop outs our education system pumps out, the better Obama's chances look. I think it will be Romney by 4, but maybe Obama wins electral college taking the two coasts with most of the map and states and counties of America going red.

Gregory

"There is no doubt that this election is essentially over." - Paul Emery

Dick Morris doesn't seem to agree with you
http://www.dickmorris.com/dont-believe-poll-propaganda/#more-9417

Paul, I think just because Romney has been trending up and Obama down, with both Gallup and Rasmussen now showing Romney ahead by a few percent, there's no reason to give up just yet.

billy T

Tom. I once had 12 megs down and was fine. Now I got 25 megs down and about 8 up and it is fine as well. The problem is I am moving out of town aways and will have to go back to 12 or whatever I can find. No way will I accept U-Verse. I would rather be on dial up or go straight national wi-fi. Company pays for all my internet at home and gives me laptops w/verizon (works ok) and cells phone and I-phones and all these pad things that look like small cutting boards. I let the kids play with them. All free cause they call it "training" (so I don't get taxed on the value) and think they need to find me in case the world blows up.Yeah, I like I am really that important in the larger scheme of things. Hate to lose a good hard line. Yahoo speed test was good back when nobody used it. Now it is gummed up. Most speed test nowadays are full of adware and tell you there is something wrong with your pc and try to sell you something, when in fact it is piss poor U-Verse or local suckie wi-fi connections. Speedtest.net does a fairly good trace route without the ads. But, it is starting to gum up at times. I like Bandwith.com (not.net!!!) but think it got bought out by somebody cause I can't find it. No ads and a true speed test. I will check out that new digitalpath as I have heard it is pretty good from the first 2 folks I asked. I suppose I could live with 10mgs down since I ain't a gamer or stream tv much. It is not that I am spoiled or cheap, it is just that I have a moral obligation to be a good steward of my money...er...other peole's money..lol

billy T

Tom, they are sending up somer young techie to show me how to use these new gadgets. They we telling me about cloud and apps and all this crap. I told them I can't do this over the phone. Wonder how much this will cost them to send some the young buck up from San Fransico to teach this old dog some new tricks. The guys here played with the new toys of mine and creamed their jeans when the found out I get unlimited apps for free. Guess that is a good thing, I dunno. I don't give a hoot about GPS or that stuff. I just want all my contacts switched over without putting them in my hand on those tiny touch screens. What ever happened to good old keyboards? Oh, off topic, but the new company web filtering has blocked me from the FUE's site. Says it does not meet filtering standards of security or the like, lol. No biggie. Speaking of speed tests (ok, I am the only one speaking of speed tests), try this one if you want to get down boogie woogie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlN9gNUEC2c

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, for a fellow who is nonaligned you sure seem to want the O reelected.

Paul Emery

Todd

I think you are aware of my Presidential preferences. Most of all I enjoy the sport of the elections. The Democratic and Republican parties primary purpose is to serve as collection agencies for special interests so in the big picture it doesn't make a lot of difference. The Repubs stand on a woman's right to chose completely disqualifies them from any consideration. I was once a Barry Goldwater conservative. Here's what he says about the issue.

“Today’s so-called ‘conservatives’ don’t even know what the word means. They think I’ve turned liberal because I believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That’s a decision that’s up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right. It’s not a conservative issue at all.”

George Rebane

'Abortion rights' constantly confuse people who cannot separate the legality of aborting a fetus from the payment for the procedure. The liberals' disconnect is always that if you don't support the government's paying for something, then you are against that something, be it the 'right-to-choose' or 'censorship' or ... . And so we are a nation of two minds. Conservatives' position is to keep the government completely out of the process - don't pick my pocket for all the bad decisions of others, I already have to pay for enough of them.

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