« The real jobs problem – shhh! (edited) | Main | On the economy, both sides are spot on »

23 September 2012


Steven Frisch

Ryan, please note, I did not start this thread, nor base my case, on the idea of providing people with housing. I based my case on what I believe to be the fact that there is no mechanism for the type of benign discrimination that George describes. How do you tell the difference between someone who benignly discriminates based on "we just like your culture" and someone who criminally discriminates based on "you're a black, a Jew, a homosexual or a liberal?"


A first grader can point out the unfairness of a progressive tax system. By definition it is not fair, it is discriminatory.

A system where everyone benefits and only 50% pay the bill is not fair. A flat or fair tax whereby every citizen pays the same % of income would be fair.

The changes (up/down) in earnings for various classes is of no significance to property rights. What you are saying is that the private property of the wealthy has less rights/protection than the private property of another class.


Is this fair?

Teacher announces:
All students who earned A's and B's will be downgraded to having C's. All students who have earned d's and f's will be upgraded to having C's.

Can you predict the performance next semester?

Steven Frisch

McD--not a lot of time right now, but the converse is that federal income tax is not the only tax burden and a more accurate comparison would be the relative proportion of the total tax burden as a % of income each strata pays.

Ryan Mount


I can't speak for George, but I certainly don't always agree with him. I do find him to be a very agreeable person, even for a beer drinker. (can't trust the beer drinkers, generally)

So anyhow, I'm not suggesting that you advocating the housing equivalent of the free school lunch program. I was merely agreeing with you, however I wanted to contain the discussion to the Progressive Tax System, which I think is a form of institutional (governmental) discrimination promoted by fallacious argument.

Ultimately, I want Romney to pay 23% tax, which is interestingly what Joe Biden pays, on everything he buys: combs, hair gel, temple garments, cars, and planet tickets. And I don't want him, or anyone, forced to legally hide funds using loopholes that we voted for. It's morally dishonest. And it (our Progressive Tax system) is overbearing and titled unfairly against the middle class. The wealthy, as we see with Romney, bury their monies offshore and in trust funds. And when the government comes a-knocking, they have plenty of time to shift it elsewhere, legally.


Ryan Mount

Why are Steven and I, but not Mikey, in BOLD? Weird. [insert snarky comments.]


I believe that every law should be fair (not bought by a class or lobbyist).

It does appear that you concede that the progressive tax system is not fair since you are now asking for concessions to include "total tax burden."


Answer: No, No
Q: Is what we have working and fixable.

Posted by: Ryan Mount | 28 September 2012 at 10:36 AM

Steven Frisch

That is not a concession McD, it has been a core part of my tax argument in this and previous threads from the beginning.

George Rebane

Administrivia - the bold is (was) there because SteveF's 1136am had the correct start code for 'bold', but not the correct end code. Therefore, TypePad decided that all comments from thereon continued to be in bold - they apparently assemble a single growing text file for all comments that they strap on to the end of a post. To end an italic or bold, you have to put the same 'i' or 'b' character after the forward slash. I fixed the offending 1136am which corrected the subsequent comments.

George Rebane

Re progressive taxes - We await SteveF's contribution on this to really get into it. However, what also needs to be done first, else this debate will go around forever (as it has in governments), is that we need to generate a mutually accepted utility function for taxation. If we don't agree on the utility, all subsequent arguments go past each other since each participant is advancing ideas that maximize his idea of good.

And as we (should) know, 'good' is not an absolute, but understood only in terms of a utility (in culturally cohesive communities, such a utility is implicit and seldom stated explicitly).

To arrive at such a utility for a 'good community' I offered a series of premises to get the ball rolling. But everyone rushed beyond that and instantly started presenting their own attributes of a 'good community' which then evolved through the Bastiat Triangle to property, liberty, and now, taxes, a very specific case of property (namely affecting its accumulation).

But hey, I'm just an old systems engineer with funny ideas on how to re/solve complex problems, and I'll go with you all the best I can.

Steven Frisch

Thanks George....I apologize. I promise to learn how to use html. 8[0

billy T

Gentlemen and fellow scumbags: I live by a code. My code, perhaps not yours. If a man WILL NOT work, he shall NOT eat. "Will Not" is the operative word as opposed to cannot. Hunger and poverty are great motivators indeed. Did some of my best changes when my back was against the wall and slim options left.

Don't think housing was even in the mix as a right back in the founding days. Food and clothing we lack not. But housing? Not even the Bible mentions housing as one of the things God takes care of for his children. My Mother used to say "the children of the righteous will never beg bread".

Getting off my soap box, property rights shall not be torn asunder without just compensation. The libbies worry themselves sick over the privacy of the womb, but back off over private property rights. My land, it ain't yours. Want some land to leave pristine and untouched by human footprints? Then buy some for yourself.

I like open space. Nice idea. The blueprint for the libbie communities has already been written by the Sierra Club. Dense clusters of people surrounded by open space. Everybody should move into the bee hive and live without wasting gasoline.

I would go along with that except for one small teeny weenie unfortunate event that happened to me. I was invited to attend a Sierra Club rah rah lecture and social. It was at a nice progressive couple's 20 acre spread out of town. They talked about planned communities and the honey comb place to stick human beings. It seemed so good and the moral thing to do.

I dropped the lead balloon on the euphoric festivities when I asked loudly "Does that mean you are going to sell this place and move into town with your one parking spot?"

Funny, I was removed from their mailing list. Some are good at telling others how they should live. Do as I say, not as I do.

George Rebane

billyT 904pm - A story worth hearing again, since it has happened many times in many places. Thank you Mr Tozer.


Ohhh! Halloween is coming, let's scare everybody with the "FISCAL CLIFF!" Good opportunity to drive the market down, make for lots of bargains in the markets as the little guys flee, and then when Obama DOES get elected, BINGO, up it all goes, including the hiring, except for a few holdouts who have gotten lazy and really didn't want to play anymore, and have gotten used to golf 3 afternoons a week. Hi Mikey!

George Rebane

TomK 1104am - Sounds as if you've cracked the code on the upcoming markets, and therefore have the ability to make a killing. Unless, of course, all that was blather.

The comments to this entry are closed.