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17 December 2012

Comments

Ryan Mount

Russ-

Non-white, non-suburban kids, as do Pakistani and Yemeni children don't make for sensational copy. (There are some on the Left who have noticed this. Ben Emery has been rather vocal about this obvious hypocrisy.) Our mainstream media is more of a propaganda and ad revenue machine, ain't it? Just like with other recent tragedies, the airwaves and internets were flooded with things like insurance ads. Talk about not letting a tragedy go to waste.

Scott-

Excellent point regarding the human refuse who hijacked the 9/11 planes.

Doug-

You have more guns than me, but I betcha I have more gin. A friend of mine observed that most of these massacres, at least the ones that garner our attention, are in relatively privileged environments. She asked me a poignant rhetorical question: "why aren't there mass shootings in inner city schools?"

Ryan Mount

I think the NRA's "put a cop in every school" is untenable mostly for the exact same reason banning weapons is a non-starter: it's not going to have any effect on school safety.

Doug's right on this one, but in defense of the NRA, they mean well. A cop on campus is probably not going to be effective. But then again, we have to remember that these attacks are very rare. On any given day, our children are exponentially more at risk in the car ride home, than from a school shooting.

Douglas Keachie

"She asked me a poignant rhetorical question: "why aren't there mass shootings in inner city schools?""

Because nobody messes with mama's guns in the ghetto.

Russ Steele

Quotes of the day:

"Institutions, e.g., banks, museums, jewelry stores, courthouses, Congress, the White House, put armed guards wherever there are valuables to protect. So I guess that's why we don't have them at schools . . . nothing valuable there, right?'

DiploMad 2.0

Ryan Mount

Russ, how many cops will we need per school?! It's certainly more than one.

I think in spirit this a good idea. But in practice? Probably not practical.

Douglas Keachie

BTW, if you hire and train 134,000 people, what are the odds you won't let one sneak through, or tat one may become so upset with the kids at his school that he....?

Gregory

Here's an interview with a School District superintendent who implemented staff CCW at their schools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y4Pz64PCNE&feature=player_embedded#!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrold_Independent_School_District

A tiny, one building K-12 district 30 minutes from Nowhere, Texas.

There is no "What's with all the sexism about men and guns in the classroom?". What's with the sexism of a *public* school whose staff is 98% female?


In general, women don't do well when men or boys get into violent spaces, so you want men around to handle those; a couple men standing up to a boy works particularly well.

Douglas Keachie

I note that George seems fond of the Israeli model, with the female teacher carrying a weapon. Could it be that they only face external threats because internally they have universal health care? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Israel

Gregory

Keach, what's with the sexism of a *public* school whose staff is 98% female?

Douglas Keachie

Well Greg, you passed on the job. Texas guy also noted the need for a secure campus, and airlock type admitting exiting zones. Now, assuming I had a CCW, and I shot regularly, say sixty rounds per week, paid for by the taxpayers, would you want me at a school with a weapon? Considering the number of teachers sex scandals, I'd be concerned about a teacher taking out other staff, or even kids. 3.4 million and there are bound to be a few rotten apples in the barrel.

George Rebane

DougK - With all due respect, I think you've gone off the rails on this discussion. Having secured, fast access firearms available in schools, and/or volunteer security personnel would be extremely cost effective. And all that "sexism" crap, and worrying about teachers shooting each other is a smoke screen that doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't look like you have a good feel for guns, and the effects of their known legal presence in an open society. Recommend reading Lott's research as has been cited here previously.

Russ Steele

An Opinion on Gun Control

This is a long post, over 10,000 words, that should be read by everyone. It is well worth your time, including you liberals that want to ban "assault rifles". It answers many of your questions while challenging some of your assumptions. Bottom line conclusion:

Gun Free Zones are hunting preserves for innocent people. Period.

Gregory

Keach, what's with the sexism of a *public* school whose staff is 98% female?

Russ, interesting piece.

Gregory

"I'd be concerned about a teacher taking out other staff, or even kids."

If a teacher wants to commit murder, they'd not be stopped just because it was illegal to have the gun. In fact, that's the essence of the folly of the pretend gun free zones.

The people I know who own guns, or have CCW's, is that they are very sober in their display and use. More willing than most to back down to diffuse the situation because they really don't want to kill the bastard that's being a prick, which is what an escalation would lead to, not a fistfight.

Steve Frisch

Sure looks like these women did pretty well standing up to a boy with a Bushmaster Greg. They slowed him down, laid down their lives to save their kids, and in at least 3 cases died shielding the children in their charge. The excuse that the school was 98% female staffed seems like just another example of diverting from the real issues. I know few men who would give so
selflessly lay down their own lives. It also exposes the misogyny that is at the core of so many ideas and attitudes here.

Ken Jones

And this is for Ken Jones, the only mental health professional that seems to be hanging out here...

Well Gregory I really do not understand what you are implying. But I would differ with your insinuation that the Sandy Hook shooter went to the school because it was 98% female staffing. You are assigning rational thinking to a mentally ill individual and I don't believe we can assume Adam Lanza had many if even a single rational thought that day.

Douglas Keachie

Here's yet another angle on alerting the rest of the school to take whatever self defense actions they can: The shooter was not let into the school, he forced his way in reports Fox News Live on Saturday. The principal ran up to him and tried to stop him and he shot her dead. The first victims were in the school office and someone flipped the switch of the school's PA system before they died in the office. This broadcasted the horrifying sounds of gunshots and screams throughout the school. As horrific as this was to hear, it gave the teachers a few precious minutes to get their classes to safety. The PA system being turned on could have very well saved many lives.

Douglas Keachie

I notice that George's diversionary thread has saved the regulars from having to defend the head of the NRA.

PoliceStateviaNRA

Paul Emery

This week


3 Shot And Killed In Mich... 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies... Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself... Man Shoots, Kills Own Son... Cops Shoot Teen Dead... Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot... 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings... 2 Murdered In Philly... 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead... Shooter Killed... 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot... Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend... Man Shot To Death... Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot... Man Shot Dead In Street... Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death... Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting... Man Shoots, Kills Intruder... 1 Killed In Coney Island... Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds... Cops Investigate Gun Death... Shooting Victim's Body Found On Bike Trail... Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead... Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest... Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup... Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death... Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead... Man Fatally Shot Near Home... Parolee Dies In Shooting... 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting... Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex... Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander... Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Woman Shot Dead By Intruder... 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack... Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot... Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend... 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead... 2 Die In Attempted Robbery... Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley... Man Shot To Death In Bodega... 2 Shot Dead In Burned House... Man Shot During Break-In... Man Fatally Shot... 20-Year-Old Gunned Down... Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit... 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting... Cops ID Shooting Victim... 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead... Shot Man's Body Found In Vacant House.... Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home... Shooting Victim Was 'Trying To Turn Life Around'... Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street.... Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies... 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting... Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife... Man Shot Dead Outside Home... 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings... Cops Investigate Shooting Death... Man Shot Dead In Ohio... Teen Shot To Death... Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times... Man Charged Over Son's Shooting Death... Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead... 1 Dies In Shooting... Man Charged Over Gun Killing... 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation... Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting... Motel Owner Shot And Killed... Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead... Suspect Arrested Over Deputy's Shooting Death... Police Probe Fatal Shooting... Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths... Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber... Man Killed In Home Invasion.... Nightclub Shooting Kills 1... Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting... Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife... Body Found In Vacant House... Teen Fatally Shot...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/


Comments (33,509) | Shares (10229) | Connecticut

George Rebane

DougK 313pm - Please identify the thread and from what was it a diversion.

PaulE 442pm - there is a point in there somewhere; help us out.

Douglas Keacie

This is the diversion thread: http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/12/2013-the-year-of-the-progressive-pandemic.html

It is a diversion from the topic the rest of the nation is deeply concerning itself with at this point in time. You need to start a new "Gun Control or Not?" thread, as it is awkward bringing up this one, going to bottom, hitting newer, going to bottom, hitting newer, and going to bottom again. yes I do use the end key to expedite things.

Paul's point is obvious, lots of guns, not enough control, 11,000 plus murders per year. Please list the numbers for perps shot in self defense for the year, anyone from the right. You are so fond of those anecdotes.

Douglas Keacie

For those that think a gun is just a tool:

"I have a buddy who is a mechanic and a gun nut. The other night I went into his garage and took all of his wrenches. The next day I took my car in and asked if he could take a look at it. He told me he couldn't really do anything because someone took all his wrenches. I said that's ridiculous, wrenches don't fix cars; people do." ~ From Praggie, Charles Michael.

Paul Emery

What do you think it means George?

George Rebane

DouglasK 739pm - A post on RR is not a "thread", nor is it a diversion from anything. It is what I want to comment on. Your choices on the matter are clear. I have also made my point clear on the psychology and knowledge of people like you on responding to the Newtown massacre. Your 825pm is just the latest corroboration of your ability to contribute to this discussion.

PaulE 912pm - since you refuse to reference any comment in the multiple threads in this comment stream, I have no clue as to what your "it" refers.

Michael Anderson

Ryan wrote: "I think the NRA's 'put a cop in every school' is untenable mostly for the exact same reason banning weapons is a non-starter...Doug's right on this one, but in defense of the NRA, they mean well."

How do they mean well? The NRA is a shill for weapon manufacturers. The only thing they care about is moving product. I can't blame them for that since moving product is Job #1. But they don't "mean" anything other than a love of profit when selling guns.

That's fine, the NRA helps the weapons industry in a quid pro quo relationship, and I have no problem with this symbiosis. But the NRA has no higher calling, or "meaning."

At least that's my read on the subject.

Douglas Keacie

Where I did an internship, during the summer of 1997,

Balboa High School, San Francisco, California

Wednesday, January 3, 2001

Around 9:30 a.m., in a third floor classroom, a 15-year-old male student was shot in the hip by a 16-year-old 10th grader in his Spanish class. The shooter was showing off the .38-caliber semiautomatic pistol when it went off. Police took the stand of this being an accidental shooting. Balboa High School is plagued with low test scores and a high faculty turnover rate, however, it is considered one of the most secure schools in San Francisco. It has 7 full-time security guards and an imposing fence surrounding the school. It does not use metal detectors, nor do the guards search student backpacks. Neither the shooter's nor the victim's name was released.

You can find more at the Columbine-angels website.

George Rebane

re MichaelA's 1114pm - 'the xx is a shill for the yy' is the kind of response expected and always given by those who cannot contribute to the issue because of a lack of knowledge, pushing a counter agenda, or out of ideas.

Administrivia - later today I will post a piece dedicated to the proposal of armed staff in schools, nationally proposed by the NRA and already implemented by the Marlboro Township in New Jersey. There I hope we can dissect the pros and cons with more contribution than was forthcoming here from MichaelA who will have another chance to say something cogent.

Michael Anderson

George, I have plenty of knowledge about the NRA and I don't have an agenda. They take money from the gun industry, the NRA is a gun industry lobby, and their job is to promote gun sales. I understand that they like to talk a lot about the 2nd Amendment, but I think it's just frosting on their "you have to close!" [Glen Garry Glen Ross] message.

Gun sales. That's all this is about. And the light arms manufacturers are just another sector of the American Military Industrial Complex. This country manufactures a shitload of all kinds of hardware used to kill people. It's one of our largest and most profitable industries. Why beat around the bush? It's not like it's something that can be hidden, it's right there in the GDP.

Gregory

"Well Gregory I really do not understand what you are implying. But I would differ with your insinuation that the Sandy Hook shooter went to the school because it was 98% female staffing. You are assigning rational thinking to a mentally ill individual and I don't believe we can assume Adam Lanza had many if even a single rational thought that day." Ken Jones

Ken, it wasn't an "insinuation". The shooter killed his mom, who volunteered at his old elementary school. Then he went to that elementary school and killed six female staffers (of 50) and a bunch of kids that, reportedly, he was distraught that his mom loved more than she loved him.

This *is* about irrational thinking. Do you think the professional staff being 98% female might have had something to do with it being chosen as a target? Take your time.

Gregory

"However, I believe that the amount of high caliber guns in circulation make such a goal unattainable." -Mikey

Mikey, the shooter used a .22 caliber centerfire rifle, about the smallestcaliber you can get (there are some .17 caliber rounds but they are oddballs) to kill most of his victims, and he used four .22LR rounds, one of the lowest power rounds available, to kill his mom. But, point blank to her head when sleeping, one would have sufficed.

Brad Croul

NRA training video?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/iDnEkFSMRik?rel=0&vq=medium&autoplay=1

Douglas Keachie

I doubt it would have made any difference, the ratio of males and females, as you need to look at Virginia Tech and Columbine as well. Aren't you "jumping the gun" in your psychoanalysis of the shooter? Seems like you are very fast out of the starting gate to have his mental history and current condition at the time of the shootings all figured out, no? And what did you say your degrees were in? Physics is close to psychology in spelling, but that's about it. Usng your standards, you just DSQ'd.

Douglas Keachie

As of now, we can't even get an accurate list of the weapons used and to what degrees they were used. The assault rifle in the trunk may have been a fourth gun, a Russian semi auto shotgun. Compare that info with what we now know about Columbine, who shot what, where, when, and how much stuff they were carrying, bombs, knives etc., the fact that the shotguns were sawed off, etc. We still really don't "know" if they were concerned about the staffing ratios...unless Greg can show some evidence everyone else has overlooked. Check columbine-angels for details.

Gregory

"They take money from the gun industry, the NRA is a gun industry lobby, and their job is to promote gun sales."

MA, they also get given large sums by the people who want to buy guns, and all the equipment. They've historically been the premiere competitive shooting sports governing body in the USA and conduct most of the shooting safety programs.

Until the '60's they were apolitical, but "Die Mode" done "streng geteilt" that arrangement.

The NRA has historically done a rather good job keeping all of their stakeholders happy. Manufacturers are just one in that group. They were too Republican to keep me for a member, but it may be time to rejoin, the wolves are circling and they are the only game in town.

George Rebane

MichaelA 1016am - the NRA does a lot more for firearms education (especially with youth), safety, civilian marksmanship programs, and preservation of 2nd Amendment rights than just run gun ads in their publications. These activities that provide value, for some reason, are never mentioned by you progressives. If it's not an agenda, then it's a peculiarly selective memory.

And extending your logic of discounting the arguments per se of any concern or institution that takes money from some other special interest groups, we would do away with public debate because the organizational debaters are ALL funded by someone and/or promoting some point of interest. It is a partisan and naive approach. You have not given one cogent argument as to why publicized guns available to school staff would not reduce the likelihood of school shootings AND minimize the number shot once the shooting began. Nevertheless, you have well represented the leftwing's response to the entire post-Newtown debate.

Douglas Keachie

I spent about ten minutes last night trying to track down just what weapons Lanza used. Apparently Greg tried and succeeded. How about a hint for the link to authoritative data on this topic? Based on what you've written, he went to the school with an 18 round 22 long rifle and had time to reload it several times?

Douglas Keachie

Columbine details here: http://acolumbinesite.com/weapon.html

Gregory

"Based on what you've written, he went to the school with an 18 round 22 long rifle and had time to reload it several times?"

Yet another sad tale of Keachie attention deficit disorder.

Douglas Keachie

The NRA ran a cover on their magazine this summer that listed their membership card as the best weapon to defeat the re-election of President Obama. Is that the gun safety education you speak of, George?

Douglas Keachie

Greg's data is unsourced, most likely red herring and =(FALSE)

Gregory

Looks like wikipedia editors read the same things I did
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting#Investigation

Keachie Attention Deficit Disorder again causes him to miss his mark.

Douglas Keachie

"However, I believe that the amount of high caliber guns in circulation make such a goal unattainable." -Mikey

Mikey, the shooter used a .22 caliber centerfire rifle, about the smallestcaliber you can get (there are some .17 caliber rounds but they are oddballs) to kill most of his victims, and he used four .22LR rounds, one of the lowest power rounds available, to kill his mom. But, point blank to her head when sleeping, one would have sufficed.

So said Greg at: Gregory | 23 December 2012 at 12:08 PM

But there is no reference by Mikey anywhere in all three pages of the comments to this post that have Mikey saying this. Looks like a setup by Greg to indicate that an itty bitty .22 long rifle (in the traditional sense, without the Uzi style handgrip and rapid fire capabilities, could do this kind of damage, which =(false). It takes a gun where the time between shots is next to nothing. Most early compact digital camera took a couple of seconds between shots to cycle, and even sometimes a second or two between when you pressed the shutter and when it fired. It takes an AR-15 Butchermaster to give the rapid flow of ammo out the barrel, that enabled this kid to dispatch so many so rapidly. You can buy a .22 long rifle used for around $100. An AR-15 Butchermeister takes $1500.
"

Douglas Keachie

Without hardly looking, one can easily see that the .223, despite the small bore size, is obviously in a different class than a 22LR.

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When you use the word "Tactical" that would infer a human threat.

Quote:
A .22lr and .22 Magnum are not tactical rounds, so it isn't fair to compare them with a .223

The best round for 150 yards would be a .223, the other two rounds could reach that far but I wouldn't call that practical or humane for larger animales.

Thta pretty much sums it up. I agree with whats been said and have guns in all three chamberings. Neither of them is really all that quiet, but the 22 long rifle would be the less noisy of the three. In an urban setting the 22 LR would most likely draw the least amount of attention as the buildings would muffle the sound a bit and the back ground noise would sorta cover the "crack" of the muzzle blast. Out in the country the sound can carry a good ways on a windless night. The 223 is considerably louder than either of the 2 rim fire rounds and is too loud to pass as a fire cracker from a wayward teen playing around"

Ken Jones

Gregory I don't think Adam Lanza cared less if the staff was female or male. Trying to guess what Lanza was thinking is an exercise in futility at this point. Maybe more of his thoughts or actions will arise later. What we do know was he was one sick individual. Assuming Lanza went to the school to kill because of the vast majority of staff being female is no more than an assumption.

Gregory

Keach, the only issue I was writing about was the caliber, which has little to do with the momentum or kinetic energy of the round.

As far as I can tell, all the rounds fired were .22.

Douglas Keachie

And Greg, for the average American, who doesn't own a gun, what do you think of, paraphasing, "it was just a .22," might mean to them? Only 80 million Americans own guns, and some of us own more than one, thus accounting for 300 million out there. One of my brother's in law collects, and owns about 500. Why do you suppose the .223 are center fire rather than rim fire? Could it have to do with very carefully and evenly energizing a much larger change? You're the physicist, please illuminate us all on the dynamics of the .22 round vs the .223 round, including the factors you mentioned. Under what conditions does the round tumble, greater increasing the effective damaging cross section of the round?

George Rebane

re Gregory 558pm - I'm amazed that all the fired rounds were ".22" which is the designation for the classic low velocity rimfire cartridge. While sufficient to kill, especially at close range, it should not be confused with the 223 high velocity centerfire round with a heavier bullet and much higher momentum and KE even though it is only 0.003" greater in diameter. I'm most amazed that someone would call a 22 firing semi-auto an 'assault rifle' - I've never heard of that before. Perhaps the lamestream remains as confused as ever when they start talking about firearms.

A 69gr 223 has a muzzle velocity of about 3,200fps, delivering 1568ft-lbs of energy. A solid 22LR bullet weighs about 40gr and exits muzzle at about 1080fps with about 104ft-lbs energy. And then there's the 22 mag rounds of different varieties, but as seen from the specs, the two rounds (centerfire and rimfire) and the weapons that fire them should not be confused, and most certainly not considered in any way equivalent.

Gregory

Keach, Mikey misused the term caliber. I'm not responsible for your loose neural ends flopping about making my words into something else entirely.

It remains that the 5.56 NATO rounds that were used at the school are less destructive than virtually all hunting ammunition. They are meant to wound, not destroy, but if what you're hunting is little kids that makes little difference at point blank range.

Gregory

"And Greg, for the average American, who doesn't own a gun"

Average Americans do own guns.

Gregory

" I'm most amazed that someone would call a 22 firing semi-auto an 'assault rifle' - I've never heard of that before. Perhaps the lamestream remains as confused as ever when they start talking about firearms".

George, centerfire or rimfire, .22 caliber is .22 caliber. Simply put, the bore diameter. Remington .223 or 5.56 NATO, or .22LR, are certainly all different rounds with varying muzzle velocities, momentum and energies, depending on bullet weights and powder charges. However, they are all .22 caliber.

The confusion between "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" was intentional, the latter being an invention of a Handgun Control, Inc (later Brady Center) staffer who wanted something to make semiauto versions of the M16 and AK47 scarier and easier to sell bans on. Virtually all of the "assault weapons" news stories the first time around showed machine guns firing at 600 rounds a minute rate.

I'd be surprised if the usual suspects here were aware that M16's and AK47's have never been sold to civilians in California. They were banned before they were even invented.

Douglas Keachie

Well Greg, I guess Adam Lanza has made it clear to the American public that there is a big difference between his .22 bore firing .223 rounds and the real bad boys with illegally obtained M16's and AK47's with much more dangerous firepower.

Gregory

"all the fired rounds were ".22" which is the designation for the classic low velocity rimfire cartridge"

No, you're confusing .22, which is merely a caliber, with .22 Long Rifle. There's also .22 Short (I've a High Standard .22 rimfire target pistol with both Short and Long Rifle barrels) and .22 Magnum, but as far as I know there isn't any cartridge named ".22".

BTW, using the heavy .22 Short barrel in the heavy High Standard frame is one way to make groups smaller, if you're strong and been practicing... not much recoil, but one does get tired holding that one-handed.

Gregory

I gather you are a learn by experiencing rather than a learn by reading kind of guy. Come on over, Keach, I'll be be happy to show you the difference between .22LR, .223 Remington and 30-06 wound channels.

It's important for any modern educator to match the lesson to the learning style, isn't it?

Douglas Keachie

Well Greg, let check you math abilities:

Population

313,847,465 (July 2011 est.)
Age structure

0-14 years: 20.1% (male 32,107,900/female 30,781,823)
15-64 years: 66.8% (male 104,411,352/female 104,808,064)
65 years and over: 13.1% (male 17,745,363/female 23,377,542) (2011 est.)
Median age

total: 36.9 years
male: 35.6 years
female: 38.2 years (2011 est.)
Population growth rate

0.899% (2011 est.)
Birth rate

13.68 births/1,000 population (2011 est.)
Death rate

8.39 deaths/1,000 population (July 2011 est.)

Roughly 314 million, minus the 64 million below 15, minus say another 15 million to get us to 314-79 = 235 or so Americans who can own a gun and 80 million gun owners, I don't think the average American owns a gun. Maybe you meant, the average American household, where with 80 million gun owners, you might make the case.

I'd prefer neutral ground for your demos....and right now my right shoulder is on bed rest, dislocated it last month. Gee, maybe I should just get a floor mounted cannon.

George Rebane

Gregory 659pm - my little 628pm dissertation on the specs of the 22LR and 223 was supposed to highlight the major difference between the two rounds, and not give a comprehensive catalog of all the types of 22 rounds that are and have been available. I still see people confusing the two, and am still not sure what the official verdict was on the long gun used in Newtown.

And I am confusing nothing with respect to these ammunitions. I grew up firing all types of 22 rounds and have taught countless kids and adults gun safety, gun functioning, and how to shoot both target and tacfire. As a combat arms officer I have more than a little experience with the military arms, and have run very large firing ranges on active duty and since then. And as an artilleryman and physicist, I am more than a little amused at all the different attempts to understand projectile ballistics. Today I am and have been for years a regular rifle/pistol range officer at the Sportsmens Club, and will enjoy having RR readers shoot on Sunday afternoons when we open the range to the public.

I took and quoted ".22" because it was used here before. And no, your grouping all the cartridges that are near 0.22" in diameter as being equivalent in any sense is what is confusing (even the 5.56mm is not a true Remington 223, but they will fire interchangeably), especially to people not familiar with firearms and ammunition.

Today as an active lifetime shooter, NRA and CRPA member, and owner of numerous firearms, I am what the progressives like to deride as a 'gun nut'.

Gregory

George, the .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO are not generally interchangeable; there are subtle differences. There are chambers made to accommodate both, and there are chambers that will only function with one or the other.

You did use 22 as a generic term for .22 Long Rifle, and while that is a common shorthand, it wasn't correct. And it is also true that in many, if not most, states, it's illegal to hunt deer with 22 centerfire ammunition because it's considered to be inappropriately underpowered for a humane kill.

However, if you wanted to hunt kids huddled in a classroom, just about any 22 rimfire round will do at point blank range. The scary thing isn't the ammunition, the scary thing is the monster intending to kill kids.

Steve Frisch

Hmmmm....seems to me I have been pretty consistently been mentioning the gun deaths in Chicago here and on other blogs (which people clearly read since they respond here).

Gregory

Steve, how wonderful for you.

Steve Frisch

Just responding to George's lament in his update Gregie...don't drink in the dark buddy:)

Douglas Keachie

"the scary thing is the monster intending to kill kids."

~ Gregory | 23 December 2012 at 08:44 PM~

Scarier yet, the ease with which they can get their hands on guns and ammo.

Gregory

Ease? What, like when the Connecticut shooter was turned away from a gun shop a few days earlier?

Face it Keach, a wealthy woman without a criminal record will always be able to get a gun legally. And her experience is sure to wake up everyone with a disturbed child of any age.

George Rebane

On the inter-operability of 223 and 5.56 rounds.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/#more-115

Michael Anderson

Thought everyone here might enjoy this article. Enjoy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/nra-board-members-have-fi_b_811090.html

Michael Anderson

Two more enjoyable links:

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000082

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564890_4193937207486_929126400_n.jpg


Gregory

Wow, only 3 of ~70 board members of the NRA are in the business of making or selling high capacity magazines? That's earth shattering? You'd have thought they all were.

And... they spend more money on Republican candidates than Dems? By about 3:1? That's all?

That would seem to make the NRA much more bipartisan than, say, MSNBC, a "news" organization.

And the violent death by gun stats are, once again, mixing homicide (justified or not) with suicide, and implying the murders wouldn't occur without guns, the suicides wouldn't occur without guns, and the folks defending themselves would have managed to do so without guns.

I think Utah's murder rate is lower than Canada's despite a massive number of guns, and even frosh at UU can carry concealed if they want to and are licensed. How does that work out?

Gregory

BTW George, it's a shame they didn't include a bolt action varmint rifle in .223, it's my understanding their chambering is the least friendly to 5.56 NATO, and there's at least one Mini-14 that is meant to be more accurate, with a .223 specific chambering not friendly to the NATO rounds.

George Rebane

Here's a little heard news story about the utility of having a legal gun available when needed. The stories about guns stopping or limiting violence don't get much press, apparently because it will send the 'wrong message'.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.asp

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