How to Protect School Children in Schools (updated 14jan13)

George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown shootings have raised two distinct issues in the public mind – 1) how to protect kids in school against rogue shooters, and 2) how to quickly politicize public passions and focus them on the progressives' long term program to disarm America.  My 17dec12 post ‘Fire! Ready, Aim – Panic-driven Public Policy’ invited discussion of WHEN and HOW we should proceed to find solutions to protecting kids in school, and admonished the rush to agenda driven ‘solutions’ before we knew the results of the massive investigation now underway in Newtown.

Few commenters cared to wait, and all wanted a rush to judgment which it appeared that each was also enthusiastic to lead.  The predictable divisions emerged instantly and almost all the ‘solutions’ offered contained no substantive reasoning to buttress them.  It was again sloganeering time, and all the old ones were hauled out, dusted off, and shouted across the ideological barricades.

No one even offered an objective (or utility function) that would at least frame a reasonable discussion.  To the simpletons it was simple, don’t we want to save school kids’ lives?  What in hell is complicated about that?!  And since guns were used for the killings, make it impossible for everyone including killers to get guns.  And what in hell is complicated about that?!

More reasoned voices counseled us to make haste slowly , and at least wait until we find out what led to the Newtown massacre.  (Taleb’s ‘procrastination promotes antifragility’ which I’ll cover soon, cf Antifragile - Things that gain from disorder)  But louder voices – led by our President and New York’s Bloomberg – advised proceeding in the heat of public passions lest they cool and let another crisis go to waste.

Enter the NRA, after letting some of the dust settle, to propose the installment of armed security personnel at all schools.  My own contribution was to achieve that security through arming of selected existing school staff, and augment through use of volunteer CCW permit holders from the community.  Such solutions brought out nationwide howls from the country’s leftwing that were appropriately amplified by the lamestream.

In spite of today’s ‘Fire!, Ready, Aim’ approach, we hear of more concerned heads taking appropriate actions to provide for the health and safety of their community’s school children.  Marlboro Township in New Jersey has adopted the NRA approach and will station armed security in their schools.   Also it turns out that other school districts in saner states already have armed school staff (teachers and administrators) on duty in their schools.  Here’s an AP report on a Texas town that is concerned beyond national demagoguery about their kids’ safety.  Things could be looking up, if we let them.

So, the purpose of this post is to dedicate a forum in its comment stream for discussing solutions to halt/reduce the incidence of school shootings, or more comprehensively, to school killings.  And for those discussants whose intellect and temperament allows, I offer a simple objective or utility function – minimize the expected rate of K-12 kids being killed while attending school.  Considering the last twelve years, that death rate is somewhere around 130/12 or 10.8 kids per year (data here).

A taxonomy of solution categories may be structured as follows –

1.    Increase National Gun Control/Confiscation
2.    Provide additional armed security at/on school facilities
2.1.    NRA approach – hired armed guards in schools
2.2.    Israeli approach – armed school staffers
2.3.    Rebane approach – volunteer CCW permit holders and Israeli approach
3.    Revise mental disorder laws to allow early interdiction of potential rogue shooters
4.    Various combinations of above categories
5.    Don’t address the problem and just vilify other solutions and the people who present or support them.  (This is really not a ‘solution category’ but an inevitable ‘response category’.)

[29dec12 update]  Physician and lawyer Dr Robert Bernat writes in today's WSJ a sober piece titled 'A Reluctant Vote in Favor of Armed School Guards'  wherein he observes that "Only one of the proposed responses to the Sandy Hook attack promises to have an immediate, positive effect."  Worth a read, especially by our liberal readers.

[14jan13 update]  As the White House now becomes the architect of the insanely ineffective gun control proposals being aired by the Left, here's some sanity from, of all places, Cal Fire News entitled 'How many kids have been killed by school fire?'

Comments

[Douglas Keachie]

1. Fence, with motion detection cameras for spaces where no one should be. If someone is there during times when no one should be there, flashing red light on monitors ringing the main office next to appropriate monitor.

2. Airlock style gating at entrance, by which I mean a closed off area, walled and roofed and well lite, where incoming students and visitors can be checked with metal detectors, when necessary.

3. Cash rewards for student who identifies anyone who does not have a guest pass on. given at outer entrance to airlock, as legal parents and substitute (Guest) teachers arrive. Aware students are your first line of defense. Guest pass changes color from day to day, and could have electronics flashing today's safe code.

4. Could have weapons securely locked up at night, (think bank vault) and only available during the day by biometric locks, and only when the principal or other authorized person presses a wireless key that unlocks those locks.

5. Optional archery equipment for those not wishing to use firearms.

6. Full insurance policies for all those who choose to defend, for both injury and death. Or maybe, just for all staff, regardless, unsafe work environment, etc.

7. Bullet proof vests for the same folks.

8. School paid access to practice range.

9. School paid gym membership, keep these folks in top condition, likewise free vision plan for updating glasses, contacts.

10. And of course yearly checkup on all gun registrations, nationwide, as seen here: http://farstars.blogspot.com

11. Foolproof PA system with warning codes, and emergency lighting signal indicators, in the shape of the school layout, such that affected area(s) would go to flashing red.

12. Doors on classrooms with locks and substance that will withstand being shot without opening. Not sure what to do about the window sides.

[Douglas Keachie]

On #1, monitors would be up high in ceiling, plus a master larger monitor that goes to motion area screen, probably mounted lower.

[George Rebane]

DougK 345pm - Good kick-off Doug and I like that you've structured and modularized it. Since cost will be a factor, in what order would you start implementing your system - i.e. order the numbers from highest to lowest priority.

[Douglas Keachie]

10, 3, 1, 2, 11, 12, 5, 7, 4, (huge expense) 9, 8, 6, (if only one attack per year, with 137,000, this should be cheap, even at 4 million per dead employee)

13. fund to pay for civil suits by families of students, injured or killed (this would be much more expensive)

[Douglas Keachie]

137,000 schools, nationwide, public and private, k through 12.

[Gregory]

I've an even cheaper and simpler one:
1) Let school staffers who have a CCW carry on school grounds.
2) Let parents who happen to have a CCW carry when they are on school grounds.
3) Let anyone with a CCW and a valid reason to be on the campus, carry.
4) In other words, treat schools like everywhere else, which is what the law was before the pretend gun free zone was dreamed up.

There's a reason homeowners have a better record not shooting innocents than the police do... they know who belongs and who doesn't. The idea that volunteers with CCW's should cycle in and out gives me the willies, as does the idea of an armed guard who doesn't have an educational function.

[Russ Steele]

Don’t mess with Marlboro Township. “We’ve made a collective decision as a town that we need armed security in each of our schools”

[Douglas Keachie]

How many CCW folks would be out at Grizzly Hill? How likely would our local sheriff be inclined to issue a CCW to a teacher who requested it for the purposes you've indicated? How about a, heh heh, substitute teacher? My proposal gives day in and day out protection, and reduces the odds of night time and weekend break-ins, as long as the cameras send live to the internet.

Your plan has the fatal flaw I've mentioned several times already. The lone teacher, on the far side of campus, gets jumped, for purposes of getting a free gun. You can teach and monitor your charges, or you can watch for ambush. You can't do both at the same time.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 614pm - not sure why a volunteer and trained CCW permit holder on regular rotating duty in his neighborhood school would give you "the willies", but arbitrary CCW people walking in and out of schools leave you at peace.

[Account Deleted]

George - you're asking the wrong question for the lefties here. We've already established that the childrens' safety is not very high on their list. Their question is only - "how can we disarm the private citizen?" And the one lefty posting on this topic is backtracking pretty quickly due perceived dollar cost and petty concerns about avian porcines. We have armed guards at malls, court houses, state houses, airline terminals, legislative houses, schools attended by the sons and daughters of left wing elites, etc. When it comes to our children in public schools, you may as well erect a bill board with a big arrow pointing to the classrooms saying "defenceless and helpless - come and get 'em". We can tear down that billboard without spending a dime. If the left doesn't like guns in schools, why do they call for them as soon as something goes wrong? Once of prevention > pound of cure.

[George Rebane]

ScottO 747pm - I'm doing my best to foster this discussion and get people to focus on a specific problem. And we'll see how many of our progressive brethren - also cistern ;-) - step up to the plate with ideas. While personally more in tune with Greg's 614pm, I'm also heartened by DougK's 343pm and 415pm.

[George Rebane]

Rearview mirror - I've updated '2013, the year of the Progressive Pandemic' with a link to a fascinating interview with George Gilder. H/T to Russ Steele who pointed me to the interview.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/12/2013-the-year-of-the-progressive-pandemic.html

[videodrone]

um, I was a student in rural NorCal when the Zodiac was threatening to kidnap a school bus, we had parents literally riding shotgun on the school buses (and this was at an age where I would leave the house with a .22 and leave it at the end of the ranch road and pick it up when dropped off in the afternoon) there was even a shooting range under the High School stage - don't recall any rampage killings then...

[Gregory]

"not sure why a volunteer and trained CCW permit holder on regular rotating duty in his neighborhood school would give you "the willies", but arbitrary CCW people walking in and out of schools leave you at peace."

One is taking on a role of providing security among people they have no usual contact with as something of an ersatz policeman, and the other is going about their business and just happen to be carrying concealed.

[videodrone]

Gregory

as a parent and long time CCW holder I rather resent the implication that as a concerned parent I would somehow endanger others children?

[Gregory]

Video, you somehow have it backwards. I've nothing against you volunteering for something useful at the school while carrying concealed, assuming the school knows about it. If what you want to do is play Policeman, I'd rather you didn't.

[videodrone]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post Gregory - I have absolutely no desire to play "cop" only that us "back woods folks" will do what we deem necessary as we see it (operative assumption that it better to beg forgiveness than ask permission)

[Douglas Keachie]

Videodrone appears to be confusing two separate entities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Chowchilla_kidnapping

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

and then there was one that happened three blocks from me. Shortly thereafter I left my more or less native Berkeley and headed for Marin County.

It was uncertain at the time if the murder of the guy on Berryman Street was Symbionese Army, Black Panthers, or Zodiac. I am unable to find a record at this time, as of course the Patti Hearst thing went down around that time. Need to check the archives of the Berkeley Gazette, which I used to deliver.

[George Rebane]

Video 958pm - share your experiences in the golden age as recounted here many times. But I don't think we can do a cultural reverse to those days - our values have been destroyed in the public forum.

Also, I share your 1007pm sentiment. My suggestion has nothing to do with "playing policeman", but its perception by some as trained volunteers being incompetent in that task may require better communication on my part. The trained volunteer would definitely not be one that was "providing security among people (with whom) they have no usual contact." They would quickly become known by the staff and students in the course of their duty. And given the nature of their required response, there would be less of an "ersatz" component to them than to volunteer firemen who protect many communities in the land.

In any case, save the predictable progressives, I wonder how many others share that fear.

[Douglas Keachie]

I think everyone responding here should watch this video about how people react in crisis situations when they have a gun. http://www.upworthy.com/the-nra-thinks-more-guns-are-the-answer-bless-their-hearts-then-watch-this?c=bl3

[Gregory]

"A trained volunteer" to do a security officer or policeman's job, only for free. And because no one sane would do that 40 hours a week, we'll have them come in a couple times a month and, besides being a gun carrier, they'll have little to do.

Sorry, but I think in the end you'll have more problems than you solve.

[L]

Keach,the topic is how to prevent school killings, not burglars. The Israelis, as they often do, had taken a need-driven common sense approach. Have staff, plural), properly trained, carry concealed. Don't flag the Vp who's carrying- jeez! Uncertainty is the key...

The Israelis have a huge edge here, as I brought up to no attention the other night; virtually every sane citizen in that land has military training, so qualified teachers aren't hard to find.
Once again, we'd do well to require national service from every young person after high school, minimum of one year- basic, advanced individual training, and 6 months of active military service, followed by a reserve system like the Israeli or the Swiss. Problem solved. This would also let us identify the problem children early in the process; they'd be the ones rejected for military service and steered into alternate service, or institutionalized at an appropriate point in their "development."

We had something like that, back in the day, and while many (myself included) didn't much like it, it worked wonders with kids who didn't like to get up in the morning. L

[Gregory]

"The Israelis, as they often do, had taken a need-driven common sense approach. Have staff, plural), properly trained, carry concealed. Don't flag the Vp who's carrying- jeez! Uncertainty is the key..."

And have a sense of scale; the chances of *anyone* being in a position of drawing their weapon is on par with being hit by lightning.

Let me talk about this in the context of air transport pilots carrying guns as opposed to Federal air marshals on scheduled air carriers. The ATP is more stable, smarter and more knowledgeable than the average FBI type, and, if they wanted, they could already kill or incapacitate everyone during most phases of flight. So why were so many opposed to them having a gun?

I recall an airline captain, irritated when a Homeland Insecurity guard confiscated his fingernail clippers, objected saying, 'If I wanted to kill everyone on the plane I could do it without the clippers', and was wrestled to the ground and handcuffs for his trouble. I'd much rather have guys like that captain with a gun than those guards. Reality, what a concept.

[Douglas Keachie]

What Greg and "L" are missing is that my system is flexible enough to allow any staff person to become a defender, assuming the principal/superintendent gives the OK. The approval level may vary from district to district. Once approval is given, any one or just select secure day time boxes will open to their touch. The secure daytime boxes can contain any of several weapons, and are standardized, with secure attachments to the building structure, such that their locations can vary day to day, if so desired, thus giving that uncertainty factor that I would agree with Greg is valuable. The boxes are placed in the morning before students arrive, and removed for bank vault style storage at night. The boxes would be tamper resistant, and would send out a wireless alarm on local loud bell alarm if tampered with. Basically you could have a custodian move these in and out of place, without being able to get at the weapons. RFID at every exit point from the school and major alerts for any exit attempts.

That brings me to a new priority #1.

#1. Wireless Panic Buttons, also using BioID technology, and only to be used in yellow mode if an intruder is detected, and full red mode if intruder is attacking. These would be installed and combined with the mapped warning indicators originally listed as #11, but upgraded to flash either yellow or red for affected area. I place these ahead of #13, because #13 going to be a batch to get through, and will take a long time to have a real effect. I want those kids safe now, and this is the best way to make it go.

BTW, on the archery equipment, two types, regular bow and arrow would require minimal storage protection, could be left in minimally secured classroom storage area overnight. Second type would be crossbow, requires more storage security, could be left in classroom over night. And lastly, in the Hail Mary category, would be airguns, pellet and paint, with special paint balls with really nasty smelling stuff, and bright distinctive color. Even if a teacher died shooting one of these, the perp would now be plainly marked for all the world to see. If many in the school are armed, the incoming cops need a good hint.

On that note, let's add one more Keachie innovation. Upon getting a Red wireless Panic Signal, an autofilling brightly colored helium balloon would autolaunch above the affected zone, such that incoming LE could go directly to the area initially affected. The more of these the merrier, for precise locating the perp(s) in a hurry. My guess would be they could be mass produced for under $500 a pop (no pun intended) installed.

I release the balloon concept into the public domain, for the children.

[Douglas Keachie]

Oooops, mistakenly referenced #13 above, and should have referenced #10

" I place these ahead of #13, because #13 going to be a batch to get through, and will take a long time to have a real effect. I want those kids safe now, and this is the best way to make it go. "

SHOULD READ:

" I place these ahead of #10, because #10 going to be a batch to get through, and will take a long time to have a real effect. I want those kids safe now, and this is the best (cheapest and can be done quickly) way to make it go."

PS You would want to make the triggering mechanisms as hackerproof as possible.

[MikeL]

I agree with Jesus, the school personnel should be taught how to effectively use bow and arrows to take down a mentally unstable POS who is killing the children. Maybe they could also be taught how to use throwing stars, spears or perhaps a blow gun. I can just see it now, teachers arming themselves with a carbon fiber compound bow hanging from their side and a quiver of arrows slung over their shoulder.

[TheMikeyMcD]

My gut says that even attempting to prevent pure evil is futile. But, I understand our need to try.

I would go on an offensive. I would start a good 'ol fashioned propoganda campaign celebrating the brave men and women who have protected Americans in the past from crazy gunmen. I would focus attention on the cities/school districts that allow folks to protect themselves.

At least imply that a crazy would be met with force. The concept of a gun free zone is idiotic and inviting.

I will be PC and ignore Holleywood's hypocricy.

[TheMikeyMcD]

FTW

Ron Paul: "We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws"

[TheMikeyMcD]

Sorry I forgot the link:

http://paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2037:government-security-is-just-another-kind-of-violence&catid=64:2012-texas-straight-talk&Itemid=69

Ron Paul will be sorely missed.

[Steve Frisch]

I agree, lets spend all of our time protecting the less than 1000 people who died of mass shootings since 1982 and screw the 660,000 who joined them in death by gun.

[Paul Emery]

So I guess we should also have armed police as well in advance of fire crews. Where does it stop? .

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20121224/NEWS01/312240026/2-firefighters-killed-2-wounded-Webster-blaze

[Todd Juvinall]

I watched a bit of "Slay the Nation" on Sunday and Bob Scheiffer had the NRA President on. If anyone had any doubts about the liberal lamestream bias it was on full display. BS tried time after time to get the NRA fellow to concede to his liberal bias about guns. The NRA guy totally destroyed BS and his position. It was so great to see a articulate man, someone who would not back down to the BS and he was convincing. The point the NRA fellow would not concede was increased regulation of guns (his position was children's safety from nut cases). BS used the "drivers license" argument and the NRA guy totally destoyed it. It was a joy to see and hear a person chuck the liberal argument into the trash. Lovely!

[Account Deleted]

It stops when society stops churning out murderers. The NRA used to be in the schools teaching gun safety, but they were kicked out - now we have idiot teenagers shooting their friends by "accident". It's the guns fault, don't you know. You lefties want a progressive society and we're getting it. There is no perfect. But, as has already been pointed out, back in the 50's (my frame of reference as a child) almost no black or white kids would dream of walking around with a gun shooting others that looked at them funny. I know what went on in my neighborhood and many blacks my age or older can testify what went on even in ghettos. Society and families just wouldn't tolerate it. A friend of mine came home one day from work and found a rifle behind the couch. His son told him he was stashing it for a friend who was on probation. Needless to say, that rifle went to the police station ASAP. Way too many young boys today just don't have fathers or anyone at home to corral them and bring them to heel. The cops know who the gang bangers are but can't do anything until the shooting has already started. Little kids get shot because the mother's boyfriend was "baby-sitting" at 2 in the morning doing drug deals. There are many factors of course, but we can stop a lot of it. Banning this or that gun won't even begin to stop it. That has already been sadly proven. This nonsense about banning AR15s is just pathetic. That won't even put a dent in the problem.

[MikeL]

Steve I am not sure what kinda of sick thing you are into but leave me out of screwing dead people. The 660k people who died from gun violence pales in comparison to the number of dead due to vacuum in the birth canal. This is in no way meant to lessen the tragic deaths of those by flying lead poisoning but rather to make a moral or immoral equivalent depending on your way of thinking.

Below is a little blurb making the rounds on the email express regarding gun control....

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY FOR YOU GUYS. Lets "SHARE" this and try to educate the uneducated.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million 'dissidents', unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
G...ermany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

[Steve Frisch]

And at movie theaters, malls, workplaces, day care centers, churches, everywhere more than 3-4 people congregate...dinner parties, bar mitzvahs, sweet sixteen parties, the entire nation can be an armed camp......we have 300 million guns in the US and we have 30,000 dead a year. If more guns equalled more safety we would be one of the safest nations on earth.

[Steve Frisch]

Hey Mike L. seems to me you are the one making references to necrophilia. You may want to see someone about that. But that's OK, you plan to save 1000 while 600,000 die...

[Gregory]

Now it's 660,000 who've met "death by gun". A phony statistic inflated by suicide.

I've had two friends (or at least friedly acquaintences) commit suicide in the last couple of years. Brian was an upcoming 3 time loser in the North San Juan drug trade, probably facing life in prison with the latest. A friend in law enforcement suggested he 'retire' to Costa Rica, but he instead decided to hang himself from a tree. Another friend, Shelley, found him, and within a year, never the most stable, she decided to jump off the highway 49 Yuba River bridge in the darkness after a couple of unsuccessful suicide attempts... the last one worked. Neither of them could legally buy a firearm, but if they could I suspect they might have given that a try and become a statistic Frisch could use.

In short, it's a big lie to include suicides by gun when discussing gun laws. The Japanese commit more suicide than we commit murder and suicide combined, and they ain't got no guns [permit me a moment of Frischian fake folksiness] to speak of.

[Douglas Keachie]

Well George, it's going about as you predicted. I suspect that Gregory has never been to Golden Gate Park's archery range, where you can watch archers with modern equipment stack arrows into 6 inch circles from 200 yards out, for Sunday afternoon recreation. It's quite impressive, at 200 yards you may have a hard time seeing the archer. Given nothing or a compound bow, which do you prefer? The cross bow, of course, allows for much less in the way of body exposure. And of course even a tire iron would be of some help. But mainly, with the country now on high alert, and discussing and in some cases acting on all these possibilities, unless an psycho is indeed ready to die, he'll probably think twice about going after schools. We certainly haven't seen any airliners hit building of late.

[Douglas Keachie]

When comparing ourselves to other countries and their gun policies, many seem to make the mistake of assuming cause and effect being strictly a function of gun laws. This leaves out all the other variables such as standard of living, education of populace, diversity of populace, general welfare and health, current economic situation, etc. We are not Switzerland, or Israel, and never will be. We are squabble infested Team USA.

[Todd Juvinall]

I have just read the Frisch comments on the purple blog about this issue. He is truly a moron. How anyone would have him in charge of anything is truly amazing.

[Douglas Keachie]

As I just said, we are Team USA, and our culture will never be Japan's where the population density is something many of us simply could not cope with. The neat thing about guns is that it is hard to screw up suicide, especially if you pick the Hemmingway route. Given that most people checking out seem to try other methods in hopes of being saved, given how easy it is to get a gun, unless you're broke, I'd say having one may make it much easier to succeed, when you really would like to fail. Besides, momma nature's going to get you soon enough, if a drunk driver doesn't.

If suicides are not to be counted, then I would have to count on Greg being in favor of the last doctor you'll ever need, as in DooWahWah's Dr. Kvorkian. DooWahWah is a musical group, with very clever lyrics.

[Michael R. Kesti]

Re: SteveF - 9:31 Of those 30,000 deaths each year more than half are suicides. What cannot be known and therefore cannot appear in statistics is the number of crimes that are prevented by guns that are not fired or, in many cases, even brandished.

[videodrone]

Douglas 1057,

not confusing the two, I was about to be discharged from the US Navy when the two loonies buried the school bus in Chowchilla and if you even read the wacky-wiki on the Zodiac you would see the following;

:Stine letter and bus threat

On October 14, 1969, the Chronicle received another letter from the Zodiac, this time containing a swatch of Paul Stine's shirt tail as proof he was the killer; it also included a threat about killing schoolchildren on a school bus. To do this, Zodiac wrote, "just shoot out the front tire & then pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out."

[Paul Emery]

Here is a pretty good itemization (reprint) of gun violence during a week in America. It's only the tip of the iceberg. My view is that guns are a safety hazard that current laws and lack of enforcement of existing laws allow to be placed in the hands of incompetent and dangerous people. Any argument about that?

This week

3 Shot And Killed In Mich... 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies... Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself... Man Shoots, Kills Own Son... Cops Shoot Teen Dead... Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot... 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings... 2 Murdered In Philly... 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead... Shooter Killed... 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot... Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend... Man Shot To Death... Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot... Man Shot Dead In Street... Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death... Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting... Man Shoots, Kills Intruder... 1 Killed In Coney Island... Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds... Cops Investigate Gun Death... Shooting Victim's Body Found On Bike Trail... Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead... Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest... Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup... Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death... Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead... Man Fatally Shot Near Home... Parolee Dies In Shooting... 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting... Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex... Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander... Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Woman Shot Dead By Intruder... 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack... Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot... Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend... 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead... 2 Die In Attempted Robbery... Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley... Man Shot To Death In Bodega... 2 Shot Dead In Burned House... Man Shot During Break-In... Man Fatally Shot... 20-Year-Old Gunned Down... Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit... 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting... Cops ID Shooting Victim... 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead... Shot Man's Body Found In Vacant House.... Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home... Shooting Victim Was 'Trying To Turn Life Around'... Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street.... Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies... 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting... Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife... Man Shot Dead Outside Home... 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings... Cops Investigate Shooting Death... Man Shot Dead In Ohio... Teen Shot To Death... Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times... Man Charged Over Son's Shooting Death... Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead... 1 Dies In Shooting... Man Charged Over Gun Killing... 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation... Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting... Motel Owner Shot And Killed... Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead... Suspect Arrested Over Deputy's Shooting Death... Police Probe Fatal Shooting... Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths... Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber... Man Killed In Home Invasion.... Nightclub Shooting Kills 1... Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting... Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife... Body Found In Vacant House... Teen Fatally Shot....... On and ON
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

[Douglas Keachie]

Douglas Keachie

I'll bet dogs have prevented more would-be crimers than guns, at least in rural areas. At least they have moved the crimes onto dogless neighbors. Perhaps schools should have Official Dogs to greet folks. And we need to make sure they do not come apart under gravitational stress (obsure Sci-fi reference)

VD, I did not and do not follow Zodiac that closely, so you are correct. I do so hope Zodiac is dead.

[Steve Frisch]

WTF, you telling me death by suicide does not count toward gun deaths? Well boys, that's how everyone else, including the NRA counts them. OK,,, who gives a sh*#, then its 300,000 since 1982.....I am sure that makes it easier for you!

[Steve Frisch]

By the way, mental health professionals are taught to ask two questions when someone talks about suicidal tendencies. The first is, "do you actually intend to kill yourself"; the second is, "do you have the means". By means they mean an appropriate amount of stockpiled prescription drugs or a gun.

Now Gregie may have anecdotal evidence of friends who have committed suicide by other means, but the reality is guns are quick, easy and almost foolproof, so they are a method of most likely choice. The truth is when faced with hanging themselves, jumping off a bridge, stepping in front of a train, slashing their wrists in a warm lavender scented tub, or eating poison most people chicken out . There is kind of a hierarchy in suicide, and guns are the top of the heap.

If Greg actually talked to mental health professionals, which I would highly recommend for a variety of reasons, he would probably know this. And Greg, I did not lie because I have consistently said, "gun deaths", not "murders".

[videodrone]

Douglas 1134AM

wow an EFR fan? few and far between these days!

[Gregory]

There's no correlation between suicide rates and gun availability by country; in fact, I recall both suicide rates and homicide rates being lower for Japanese immigrating to the USA, and while drawing too many inferences isn't statistically appropriate, it does point in the opposite direction of what the Frischies of the world are trying to claim. If guns were the problem, you'd expect both to go up for a population moving from a gun free society to one where it's quite easy (and, many would say, rightfully so) for a law abiding resident to obtain a firearm.

In short, people, even if a gun isn't available, someone who wants to off themselves will find a way. My friends would be just as dead had they used a gun and all those gun suicides would just be moved to a different column of the uniform crime statistics.

[Russ Steele]

New York Newspaper Publishes an interactive map with the Names and Address of Gun Permit Holders, providing the thieves a list of address that they should not attempt to rob, thus identifying the undefended homes in New York that are now safe to rob. They also gave the addresses of abused women who have defensive weapons and are in hiding from the abusers. How many women and their may have to spend Christmas in a motel hiding.

More HERE: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/12/24/Lohud-New-York-gun-permits

I wonder how many teachers are on the list?

[videodrone]

Russ,

Our local excuse for a newspaper has published a list of county issued CCW permit holders in the past and acknowledging that they can do so again is part of the permitting and renewal process.

[Gregory]

"By means they mean an appropriate amount of stockpiled prescription drugs or a gun."

Cars are also thought to be a major suicide choice, especially among men. A bonus is that unless a suicide note is found even a single car accident will be considered an accident.

If you think your loved ones would be less dead from a hanging than a bullet, by all means, keep adding gun suicides in the numbers you're using to sell gun bans. Your delusions are yours to keep.

[Gregory]

The news today, something for everyone:

"Two volunteer firefighters were killed and two others seriously injured when they were ambushed with gunfire while responding to a house and car fire in western New York -- what police now believe was a Christmas Eve trap set up by a shooter who had once served time for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer"

How does anyone who kills their grandma with a hammer get out of prison in anything other than a pine box?

[Douglas Keachie]

Greg, the topic is protecting school kids, and you've gone off the tracks, chasing the daisies of suicide.

Greg, it takes stuffing prisons with MJ dealers and smokers until they burst. Score another one for the war on drugs.

Say everybody, are you all missing something?

Most schools have internet which goes through a filter. It would not be too hard to intercept the packer stream and force a map on screen throughout the school during emergencies. There's a software patent and market here somewhere, with 137,000 separate schools nationwide. I thought our SillyPinecone Valley was looking for work?

Some local districts are issuing IPad to students on a daily check out checkin basis. The kids would be able to instantly see where the action is and run the other way.

Or, make the emergency displays and use tradtional hardware LED solutions.

BTW, the teachers wireless biometric device could transmit one of four possibilities: blue for recalcitrant student, yellow for student(s) fighting/teacher endangered, orange for stranger on campus, and red for stranger doing bad stuff on campus.

The development of the transmitter seems like something that could be done here. Hardwired maps in LED's could be done here. You make it and I could sell it, Let's do this for the local economy.

[JimS]

So, if an unauthorized "sheepdog" stops a killer in a "gun free zone" with a firearm, what should be the 'dog's legal consequences?

If the 'dog waited 'til one innocent was harmed, would that have any weight?

Should the 'dog be punished for a victimless crime if they stopped a crime against innocent victims?

Is it impudent even to suggest that there are citizen watchmen?

[Gregory]

Keach, suicide was brought in by Frisch's meaningless statistics, and no, your latest hallucinations regarding the use of the internet and ipads to direct stampedes out of the school isn't anything that anyone "missed". I see not a single practical idea in your 6:41.

JimS, I think in practice a good Samaritan who illegally saved lives would be let go even by a rabid anti gun DA because it would be near impossible to find 12 jurors who would all vote guilty.

Happy Christmas to all and to all a good night.

[Douglas Keachie]

Thanks Greg, as your rejection means the ideas are winners.

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen - Jo Ann and I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a healthy and prosperous 2013. Thank you for gracing these pages with your thoughts.

[Douglas Keachie]

Thank-you for providing the space, Merry Christmas and other great holidays to all, as we once again swing away from the galactic center, on our happy Tilt-a-Whirl....

[L]

Merry Christmas to all who participate here and thanks George for providing the opportunity. God bless.

Still,I'm beginning to worry about one of the participants. We now have the bizarre situation of Keach's numerous "sock puppets" responding to each other's posts... and yeah, tho JoeK is apparently gone, a couple of new ones, above, are easily detectable. Maybe we should be concerned. L

[Gregory]

I have rethought Keachie's idea to have an internet system to signal kids in school where to run for their very lives, and do think it has a limited application where elderly half-deaf, half-blind substitute teachers with ADD are employed. Everywhere else we should allow the adults legally in charge to protect the kids the way we'd expect any able bodied responsible and sane adult to do without a second thought.

Given the extremely limited number of potential sales, I doubt anyone would build it.

[Paul Emery]

My view is that guns are a safety hazard that current laws and lack of enforcement of existing laws allow to be placed in the hands of incompetent and dangerous people. Any argument about that?

[Gregory]

Revisiting the suicide stats, here's an interesting one:

"Four out of five people who commit suicide have attempted to kill themselves at least once previously."
Joiner, Thomas. 2005. Why People Die by Suicide. Cambridge,
MA: Harvard University Press.

Practice makes perfect. Everyone not in protective custody "has the means" to commit suicide, it just takes some who are fixated on it longer to discover what works for them.

That stat also reminds me of a domestic violence factoid... something like 90% of all domestic shootings have had the police called over a disturbance at least once, and half have had the cops called five times or more.

To help Steven Frisch out of his concern for my well being, one of my closest friends, a mental health professional (an MSW/LCSW) trusted me flying their three closest relatives, also friends, up to northeast California from Grass Valley, a lovely flight up to Susanville. Not to mention the mental health screening inherent in the FAA medical certification. My only series of MFT visits (when my first wife was dying) ended with the therapist telling me I was "normal", only depressed because I had something major to be depressed about, to keep up my ties to the community and, if anything, spend more time outside the family to make sure I was anchored once my wife died.

I didn't want to end up like a fellow of the time who blew his brains out while visiting his wife's grave and I dodged that bullet.

Now, Steve, reading your latest blog posts makes be think you'll really be at risk if the phony "assault weapons ban" doesn't get passed and when climate change alarmism collapses. Get some help.

[Gregory]

Paul, yes, you have an argument over that. The safety hazards are the incompetent and/or dangerous people you mention in passing. They also wield other useful things like automobiles and power tools.

A #2 Philips head screwdriver is also just a tool, but aviation mechanics like to say the most dangerous thing in aviation is an owner wielding one.

[George Rebane]

PualE 347pm - Yes they are a danger, like many other things that contribute to our quality of life. But the aggregate risk to the nation is miniscule when compared to the risk were guns to be consfiscated (or effectively so through the agenda driven gun control ratchets). It is the disagreements about this and statements like this that terminally divide us.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory, George

Are you in favor of a type of competency and ability testing for owning a firearm that is required for driving and owning an automobile? Also a similar liability requirement such as auto insurance?

[Gregory]

Paul, what part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" are you not clear on?

Should we have literacy tests or current knowledge exams for voting or for free exercise of speech? Why should that be different?

You can own all the automobiles you want without insurance or licensing, if you keep them on private land. In fact, you can own an airplane and fly it without a pilots certificate as long as you stay over private land (that you own or have permission to fly over) and within G airspace, generally within 700' of the ground, sometimes higher.

We already have limited licenses for carrying firearms publicly. The CCW requires significant training and demonstrated proficiency. Hunting licenses also require such. But what constitutional authority does Paul cite to require a mother (or big brother) may I? for basic ownership, given the now settled law of the 2nd referring to an individual right?

[George Rebane]

PaulE 746pm - I took your question in the sense of the subject of this post, and not implicating your interpretation of the Constitution. Having said that, I support the points made by Greg (859pm), and would even double down on tougher requirements for exercising the voting franchise that should be set by each state. Ignorant and stupid voters do much more damage to the nation than does the occasional deranged shooter (who can be averted by easier and less impactive means than curtailing the 2nd Amendment).

In sum, today's laws are already sufficient (and in some cases excessive) to maintain the cost-benefit of broad-based gun ownership at a tolerable level. First enforce what we already have on the books.

[Paul Emery]

Calm down gentlemen I was only asking a question not expressing my own view.

I also have a problem with ignorant voters especially those who use religious mythology as a substitute for science. For example should someone who actually believe the world was created in seven 24 hour days be allowed to vote?

[Gregory]

Paul, ask questions that seem to mesh with your own view and they will be taken as such.

Should people who have never taken a real science course in their life be allowed to vote?

Should someone who doesn't know a modern gas operated carbine from a matchlock be allowed to lobby to ban the former?

I have problems with ignorant voters of all persuasions, but I don't see how any adult citizen who can manage to blunder into a polling place at the appointed time and fill out a ballot can be kept from voting. Rather than a "get out the vote" campaign, I'd like to see a "stay home and shut up" campaign for those who can't be bothered to look behind the sloganeering.

[Michael Anderson]

Nice parry, Paul. I give you the point.

[Steve Frisch]

Gosh Gregory, the thought never crossed my mind that you might blow your brains out...I was thinking that megalomania might be a more accurate diagnosis than depression.

I think Paul is on to the long term solution here: Yes, you have a right to keep and bear arms, on your own property; as soon as you take those arms into the public realm they may be regulated until the cows come home.

I give Paul the point as well.

[Todd Juvinall]

Apparently MA and SF did not read PaulE's comment very carefully. He said it was not his opinion but simply a question. What a couple of dumbkoffs.

[George Rebane]

With apologies, I missed the contention of PaulE's 746pm, and intended none in my 938pm reply. Pray, for what is Paul being awarded all the points?

[Ken Jones]

Todd you really have no firm ground calling any one a "dumbkoof(s)", when you probably meant dumbkopf. But I wouldn't expect a scintilla of common sense from you Todd. Talk about Fire Aim Ready logic!

[George Rebane]

... just for reference, the Germans spell it 'dummkopf' ;-)

[Michael Anderson]

Todd, try to keep up. I know it's hard, what with Humpty Dumpty still being closed, and no waffles available except for those gummy ones over at Perko's. Paul was making a point by asking a question: "For example, should someone who actually believes the world was created in seven 24-hour days be allowed to vote?"

George has repeatedly claimed that stupid people shouldn't be able to vote. Paul is helping to define the test for those stupid people. His question remains unanswered, despite Todd's clumsy ad hominem.

[George Rebane]

Re MichaelA's 931am - PaulE's 1021pm question is bit a snarky and invites answers like 'Yes, let them vote as long as all those still get to vote who believe their transfer payments come from some mysterious presidential "stash".

Actually, the question of what are the qualifications for voting is a more serious one, and deserves a topic of its own. In the past, when we have tried to discuss this issue, the progressives have gone off the rails with all kinds of sloganeering like 'racism' and 'discrimination'. We already have discriminatory laws that prohibit certain people from voting, are they they necessary, are they sufficient? If not, what else is needed?

And yes, I do believe that there should be some minimal intellectual requirements to be met before a person can vote, else, as today, they become ballot stuffers for the clever, perfidious, and rich.

[Gregory]

Mandersonation ran out of points to give a long time ago.

Frisch, what part of 'the right of the people to own and carry guns shall not be infringed' do you not get? No, they won't be "regulated until the cows come home"; the cows came home a long time ago, and the SCOTUS is slowly sending them back out.

George, the qualification to vote is being an adult citizen whose criminality has not stripped them of the right to vote. I'm afraid you'll have to hope the most stupid will manage to invalidate their ballots with double votes or, for the mail in crowd, forgetting to sign it. Or just stay home because it won't do no good to vote anyway.

Paul, the science idiots the last time around were the ones who thought Hurricane Sandy was man made. But it's a fashionable idiocy.

[Gregory]

"The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most of the great men of history." -Bertrand Russell

Frisch accuses me of megalomania, which is truly bizarre, having never been a seeker of power. Always wanting to build things, not to command others to do so. I think Frischie is projecting, as most executive chefs are out of the closet megalomaniacs to begin with, and RR's resident six figure non-profit CEQ is doing his best to climb the power ladder.

[Ken Jones]

Correct George it is dummkopf. I took Spanish.

[Michael Anderson]

"Mandersonation ran out of points to give a long time ago."

Luckily for humanity, GG is not the arbiter of who gets to award points and who doesn't.

[Paul Emery]

Here's a question to consider.

Should a person who literally believes that someone named Noah packed up matched couples of all the animals in the world into his self made boat to save them from extinction after the great flood that covered the entire world be allowed to vote? Do they pass the IQ-Education threshold that George suggests is necessary ?

[Todd Juvinall]

Wow, I make a cogent point about the resident dumbkopf lefty posters and they go out and recruit another one. Ken Jones, you have a liberals common sense. That is, none. The rest are just to funny. Anyone traveling to Burning Man cannot and is not taken seriously anyway. (I bet Ken Jones goes too, wink wink)

PaulE. Your questions are formed as the pollsters form them. They have a predisposition on the answer so the question is formatted to accommodate that bias. They are called "push-pull" questions. Ken Jones knows about them because he is a leftwing t propagandist.

Now we have a push=pull from PaulE who is a nonbeliever in Jesus as the Savior, asking the question should someone who believes in Noah and the flood be qualified to vote. Well, hell yes. Lincoln, Washington Mother Teresa and may millions of people with a lot more smarts than PaulE have existed and voted wherever they lived. I would suggest PaulE's question should be asked of the old communists who lived through the USSR days where a candidate got 99% of the vote and those commies, dudes and dudettes (that was for4 MA) , were the smartest folks around. Go Paul!

[Paul Emery]

Todd

I only brought that up after some kind of IQ-Intelligence criteria was suggested by contributors. By the way, you know nothing of my religious beliefs so I'd appreciate you treading lightly on that road lest you arouse my anger and appropriate response. I never once expressed any kind of generalization of your religious beliefs.

I think it's entirely relevant to ask the question, if voter competence is under review, whether voters living under the influence of archaic Christian mythology that they wish to impose on others through their voting preference, should be allowed to vote.

[Gregory]

Paul, should welfare recipients be allowed to vote? Public employees?

Everyone believes in one myth or another, and it's poorly correlated with IQ. While some creation myths are particularly silly, I don't know any such belief that poisons the body politic more than the manna from heaven that welfare slaves and too many public employees believe in.

[Gregory]

Mandersonation, you're the one posing as the one sitting in judgment. Di we need to dig out your self portrait once again?

[Russ Steele]

Here are some thoughts on Gun Control that many, but not all, will enjoy: http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/penn-and-teller-on-gun-control/

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE, sorry I thought you told us a few times you were not a Christian. I apologize if that is not the case.

Regarding wrath. That is too funny.

Fascinating though PaulE that you used Noah. Why didn't you pick Buddhists who believe in reincarnation? That seems to be a bit nutty (or animists from Africa). So when a person picks a particular religion as you did, Christianity, then implies the people believing some part of it are nuts (disallowing their vote), that should not give us a clue to the reasons it was asked? PaulE, we are not the dumbkopfs that the Ken Jones, ichaelA types are.

[Ken Jones]

Todd you seem to enjoy making a complete fool of yourself. Continue to enjoy your day and the days that follow.

[Paul Emery]

You missed out on my joust Todd, that being that if we apply any kind of intellegence-rationality criteria to voting then how do we deal with religious views that deal with mythical definations of reality and history. You're correct Todd, let's include all religions in this expulsion.

While we're on the subject how is belief in reincarnation any different fundamentally from Guy in the Sky Christianity that has a judgement process that sends you either to heaven or hell based on some kind of merit system? It's all faith based so why

[Todd Juvinall]

Sorry PaulE, as usual you misread my post. I am not excluding anyone from any religion as you seem to imply. You never answered my point about Lincoln etal, being Christians. So never mind, play your head games with Ken Jones, he needs your help.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

I am not suggesting that anyone not be allowed to vote because of religious fantasies. I was just questioning how that criteria fits in with Georges desire to apply some kind of test to screen voters. Obviously if history was part of the test anyone who believes that the world was created in seven working days would have a hard time relating to thousands of years of scientific observation. Also Noah's Ark seems to be missing from serious history journals.

[Gregory]

Paul, I'd say 98% of the people have a hard time relating to thousands of years of scientific observation. It's just that the idiot right and the idiot left have different blind spots.

The idiot left's blind spots are resulting in the burning of food instead of feeding the hungry, and pretending that pouring billion$ into 'renewable energy' generation that is a factor of 6 more expensive than conventional sources somehow results in more affordable energy.

At least the idiot fundamentalist rightwing doesn't try to screw me over. They just don't want to pay for your daughter's elective abortion; the way around that is to pay for it yourself.

[Russ Steele]

Gallop:

Fifty-four percent of Americans have a favorable opinion of the National Rifle Association; 38% view it unfavorably. Views of the NRA have fluctuated over time -- from a low of 42% favorable in 1995 to a high of 60% in 2005.

DiFi's Gun Control bill is going to die a slow death as many Senators, especially those Dems up for re-election in 2014, are going to make sure it never comes up for a floor vote.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 342pm - I do agree that your questions that tongue-in-cheek ridicule fundamentalist Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have very little to do with voting qualifications, save your tacit assumption that all who so believe will seek to impose it on non-believers through some extra-legal device. There has been no evidence of that in US history.

However, there is ample evidence that those who do hold fundamentalist beliefs have done a marvelous job voting over the last 200+ years to bring the Republic to its current state. And there is also ample evidence that those 'president's stash voters' who hew to the collectivist line have here and elsewhere in the world brought upon all a heavy burden of autocratic governance.

So I think if we decide to make progress on some minimum voter requirements besides those already imposed, then your questions regarding creationism, Noah's ark, and (maybe next) the feeding of the 5,000 will contribute very little here save drawing a chortle or two from our secular humanist readers. But that's only my assessment.

[George Rebane]

By popular demand voter qualifications has become of interest to most of you. It is an important discussion that should be revisited from time to time in a democratic republic such as ours. Please continue your comments under 'Who Should (not) Vote'
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/12/how-to-protect-school-children-in-schools.html

[Paul Emery]

Gregory 27 December 2012 at 04:26 PM

"At least the idiot fundamentalist rightwing doesn't try to screw me over. They just don't want to pay for your daughter's elective abortion; the way around that is to pay for it yourself."

Oh if it were only that simple. It's obvious that the real goal of the Christian right wing is to criminalize abortion not just to eliminate subsidized funding. Here's the Repub platform on abortion which applies at the moment of cnception and would ban even day after contraceptives.

"Faithful to the 'self-evident' truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed," the GOP platform states, according to CNN. "We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children."

[Douglas Keachie]

By cracky you are all making such great progress towards protecting all the little kiddies. So say and Jesus Betterman, AKA, the desktop and the laptop, and the only two clock puppets out here, unless I have a multiple personality disorder of which I am unaware.