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03 January 2013


Ryan Mount

Welp, I go to Main Street anyway. Apparently the government intrusion was onerous enough to shutdown Grass Valley operations. Something doesn't smell right, and I'm not talking about the white drains in the kitchen.

I wish Mr. Cirino would have provided more specifics about his grievances. He sounds like Joe Koyote bitching about Monsanto in another thread around these parts.

George Rebane

RyanM 1004am - I think that the Cirinos provided sufficient background for their decision, and more than they needed about the operations of their private business. The further details are not germain to the overall message that the Left chooses to ignore as it continues to fundamentally transform the country. The details of California's attack on businesses has been covered extensively on RR and countless other outlets.

I do note that the local leftwing is not rushing to report this setback to the community. The next Nevada City's city council meeting should be entertaining, and possibly even informative.

Michael Anderson

Yeah, I'm not buying this either. At least not without more detailed information. After reading the letter, it appears that PPACA is the target, though Mr. Cirino doesn't mention that legislation by name. And there may be other legislative and regulatory factors as well, which again are not spelled out.

We can speculate all we want, and point fingers at our favorite whipping boys, but until we get some answers to some fairly poignant questions, the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned.

Russ Steele


Here is some more insight posted at If You Voted For It - You Own It by Sean in a comment:

"Sean on January 3, 2013 at 9:50 am said:
The food serviced business must be getting ready for some serious changes. Food prices and delivery costs are going up and now, anyone working over 30 hours per week gets health insurance if you pass the magic threshold of 50 workers. If you cover just the indivual worker, that is $2.50 an hour or about $5K per year if that worker is employed for 40 hours per week. A Fast food place will see it’s employee costs rise by 25% but a restaurant, where workers are paid less because of tips, will see costs per worker double. Couple that with less take-home pay for most customers and higher costs the basis necessities and it will be interesting to see if there is contraction in this sector. Alternatively, we might get workers working two part time jobs and food service employees having to juggle two schedules. A third option for workers, particularly single parents, would be to work just one job, 25 hours a week and make up the difference in public assistance. The thresholds and cut-off points for benefits to many low income workers might actually make this the best option for many."

Mario Guanero

meh... Cirino's was way past prime.
I'd say @ half capacity the handful of times we were forced to visit recently due to overcrowding at Lefty', etc.
And it looks like maybe I'm not the only one:

and besides, as with the majority of the ginned-up issues on these pages, deflection is the sure sign and hallmark of a loser.

Ken Jones

George you omitted the part in the letter by Jerry that stated: "I feel both political parties have failed us, however this is not a political statement".
I agree that both parties have failed us, wouldn't you agree?
You have turned this into a political issue George and also ignoring that the GV restaurant remains open. Much more to this story than what we see so far.
Fire Ready Aim.
And do you really want to throw around terms like "butt stupid"? Real gutter ideology.

George Rebane

KenJ 1122am - The Union reported the story, I commented on it. My commentary is correct as it stands (especially given Cirino's published letter). I believe strongly that it is a political issue, and the failure of the Republicans is that they have no message to compete with the Dems when it comes to the state's manufactured and ever growing populations of gimmes. I have made this clear to local and statewide Republicans.


Oh yes, and the Cirinos do know that they live in a community with a heavy dose of progressives in the population.


I remember during the Hillarycare debacle, Mrs. Clinton declared 'I can’t be responsible for every under-capitalized small business in America', and I see the usual suspects brushing off Cirino's now in a similar way.

This is going to be an interesting year.

Ryan Mount

Look. Mr. Cirino says he's studied the legislation. That's *awesome* (said in my SpongeBob Squarepants voice). So I want to hear the assessment from the horse's mouth...chased with a Bloody Mary with a dark back, of course. Just like Joe's assertions elsewhere here.

Isn't not unreasonable to ask for more detail with such a spectacular accusation.

It's one thing for us to carry on here in a blog environment, it's another thing to make similar pronouncements where the rubber meets the road(a real business owner), and then fail to provide any substantive evidence. Mr. Cirino could provide some valuable insight here. If this is indeed true.

I'm saddened either way, however there has to be more than an onerous regulatory/legislative environment effecting the decision. Running a restaurant is hard. A good day is filled with mouthy employees and snotty customers, product going out the back door, purveyors/suppliers showing up during the lunch rush and 18 hour days.

I would urge caution in jumping to any regulatory conclusions. It's far more plausible that the restaurant was struggling due to other reasons.

BTW, Thanks Russ. I appreciate the effort.

Ryan Mount

It's not* unreasonable to ask.

Sorry. Typing to fast.


Ryan, most restaurants and many if not most businesses in general are always struggling for multiple reasons. You bet, don't blame the last straw for breaking the camel's back.

Ryan Mount

Hi Greg-

Here's the real reason: Lefty's is doing well. They're selling more pizza and expanding.


Capitalism sucks for the losers.


You bet, Ryan. Of course, you shouldn't blame the last straw. There just isn't room for Cirino's. If they were only better they wouldn't be closing. The cooks and waitstaff were wanting. The menu wasn't ideal. The prices were too high.

So... the staff is better off scrambling for a job with a better employer?

Ryan Mount

Greg. I just want the details from Mr. Cirino when he makes Jesse Jackson like claims about his enterprise's demise.

I'm a cynical man/boy, so please discount and pardon my doubting Thomas-ness. But I will assume until I hear otherwise (I'm most happy to be wrong in this situation), that this is a maneuver (publicity, and let's face it, the Cirinos are masters at it) even more cynical than I could dream up to cover the tracks of my failure.

But failure, IMHO, failure of this sort is a good thing.

> ... the staff is better off scrambling for a job with a better employer?

Sorry. Almost forgot to answer that.

Neither better nor worse. It's part of the cycle of destructive capitalism. It really sucks though. Been there, done that. It sucks.

Russ Steele

We are going to see more business people like Jerry Cirino who are either able or nearing retirement who will be "going Galt". Business across America will downsizing or reducing their income and expenses, refusing to spend their labor to support a government antagonistic to their future wealth creation.

Businesses will not grow beyond 50 employee, and those that have less than 100 will be seeking ways to downsize. Small companies must learn how to game the rules and regulations established by local, state and federal governments if they want to survive and prosper in today’s economy. Those business that are not skilled at gaming the system will soon go out of business. Jerry Cirino is doing what has to be done to survive -- downsize!

In addition to downsizing there is a growing tend in the US toward the increased use of part time employees, those who work less than 30 hours a week. Part time employment was once associated with the seasonal retail, recreation, and hospitality sectors. Now a new trend is emerging, just in time employment that is based on work flow. Sophisticated software is being used to alert manager when to expand the staff or send someone home.

In California this part time trend is spreading among multiple occupations, including architects, finance managers, attorneys, information technology specialists, vocational counselors, construction, and manufacturing workers. Companies are cutting costs by reducing hours to part time, thus reducing benefits. This was a trend before ObamaCare became a reality. Now with the full implementation of PPACA, the trend toward a part time workforce is accelerating.

We will see more business “going Galt” by down sizing. Others will be using part time employees to reduce cost and stay small. This will slow economic development in the community, the state and the nation.

Ryan Mount

This is not a John Galt moment, IMO. A real John Galt moment would have included a silent and arguably noble disappearance. This is a publicity stunt.

I'm trying to be optimistic here, so perhaps this is an attempt to raise the esteem of his employees as to make their job search easier? Maybe Mr. Cirino is tired of running a restaurant. (I've managed/ran two when I was younger ...and it was difficult on the best days). Maybe he's gonna open up a new restaurant? (I hope so!)

Cynically, I suppose the enterprise is getting the attention they wanted. And on that note, they are frickin' marketing geniuses.

Ken Jones

George I did read the letter in The Union today. Seemed to me Jerry took steps to make his letter apolitical, you not so much. Much assumption on your behalf. Not to mention that Cirinos GV is still open and doing well. And like Ryan pointed out Leftys is doing well and expanding.
So progressives are responsible for Cirinos closing in NC but not responsible for Leftys expansion? Not the most reasonable argument George.

Russ Steele

Well, we will have to see how Lefty's does in it's new location. You will note that a number of business have failed at this location. Even the Stonehouse across the street failed. This is not in the area of town with a lot of people traffic, which is important restaurant attendance. Stay Tuned.


Ryan, what a concept. So, if weeding out weak businesses by unintended side effects of legislation is a good thing, why not start passing laws intended to do nothing but push marginal businesses over the edge?

There's one free market health insurance reform that could have been passed that would have cost the public coffers and businesses like Cirinos nothing and would have started some real move towards less money poured indiscriminately into health care... making employee health benefits taxable, while adjusting the tax tables to make it revenue neutral. The gold plated plans would find employees clamoring for something that didn't cost them so much, and those without employer plans would get an increase in take-home pay and more options for buying their own with dollars worth the same as everyone else's.

The big losers with that are folks in large unions and the big financial houses with gold plated and tax free benefits that are among the last targets of the Obamacare regulations. Expect the penalties for gold plated benefits to be pushed out as those scheduled punitive measures get closer.

Brad Croul

Too bad Lefty's didn't know about Cirino's decision sooner. They might have preferred that space for their restaurant.

I have been eating more often at Cirinos on Main Street recently. I am not sure if it is the menu, the lighting, the ambiance, the (relatively) recent improvements, the Fung Shui, or what; I just seem to prefer the Main St. location to the Broad St. location (and I live within walking distance to the the Broad St. location).

I am not a restaurateur, but I think restaurants in small towns with few restaurant choices would be better attended if they offered more specials and varied their menus from time to time. I think New Moon does this successfully.

I will miss Cirinos though, and look forward to a new, successful business in that location.


I'm looking forward to new, successful businesses in a number of empty Nevada City storefronts.

Good luck to Lefty's in its new location; I've patronized them maybe twice over the years in their current spot and while it was pleasant I didn't think the value was there. Of all the businesses that failed in the new location, my favorite was the short lived Los Amigos location, though Kirby's Creekside was nice enough.

The move strikes me as more of a 'the price is right, let's go for it because our current landlord is not bending in negotiations' than a pure 'expansion'.

Joe Koyote

If one is speaking about small business in general, the demise of small business probably has more to do with the rise of big box and chain stores and corporate friendly trade agreements like NAFTA than it does with progressive attitudes. The larger question should be how to reign in the corporate greed that gobbles up small businesses rather than complain about and blame efforts to force those same employers like Walmart, to provide their employees with a decent standard of living. Having spent New Years eve with several old friends who are small business owners whose incomes ranged from $500k to $10m, I understand the plight of the small business person. It is those people who get hurt the most by income tax increases because, unlike most of the super-wealthy, my friends actually earn their money through actually working rather than through capital gains. It also costs them the most in terms of benefits and other mandates as a percentage of income. The problem is that the mandates were created not with small business in mind. Most small business people I have ever known treat their employees like family and would provide reasonable benefits and compensation anyway. It is the low wage anti-worker greed based Walmart business model that mandates are meant for. I think it was one of the ice cream guys, Ben or Jerry, who, as an experiment, opened a sweatshop in LA that made T-shirts. Starting pay was 12 bucks an hour plus full benefits. This added only one dollar to the retail price of their products. Russ.. we have found some common ground..Leftys is doomed. The only eatery that ever made it in that location was The Jacks in the 1970s and I think they owned the building. All others have lasted a few years at best.

Paul Emery

My good friend Jerry Cirino one told me there's no problem in business that volume can't cure. The general decline of "after dark" business in Nevada City is obvious putting many businesses on notice. Cirino's is the third resturant on that block to close in the last few years.

I have lived in Nevada County for 35 years and remember when Jerry Cirino bought Duffy's Saloon and opened his restaurant so it's a bit sad to see it go dark for whatever reason.

Ryan Mount

Greg> So, if weeding out weak businesses by unintended side effects of legislation is a good thing

I agree with that. Well, No. I agree that onerous legislation that stymies business is a very bad thing. But I'm more convinced after asking around that government intrusion is not the case here with Cirino's.

I've been VERY critical, for example, of recent ADA shakedowns (improper handicap parking spaces, etc.) of small businesses. And I'm also very concerned about the upcoming mandatory medical coverage other small businesses will face. In the end, the Progressive Agenda will end up with that very specific thing they hate: a few Mega Corps left. But I guess that will keep them busy bitching about that. Dumbasses.


D. King

Ryan Mount | 03 January 2013 at 02:36 PM




You bet, Paul and Ryan. It's just a coincidence. Since volume cures all ills, it's the fault of the business for not having the volume.

As far as Cirinos goes, I've eaten there once in the past 12 years after a *really* lousy meal soured me on the place. My favorite in town was Country Rose which was one of the first to go.

Russ Steele


You wrote: "The general decline of "after dark" business in Nevada City is obvious putting many businesses on notice."

Do you have some insight into the reason for the "after dark" slow down? What might be the cause? Are people feeling less safe? Just fewer people in town with money to spend? Slowing economy?

Is Grass Valley having similar "after dark" slow downs?


That which is not seen.
I would like to discuss the "going Galt" concept. The number of producers that have (and will) go on personal strike as a protest against an enourmous government is large (and growing). The difference is that going on strike in a fiat currency world (where central banks just print until kingdom come and you cannot starve the beast) does not have the effect that it did in the 1950's (When Atlas Shrugged was penned).

I went John Galt in 2008 after being FORCED to pay an excessive amount of my earnings in taxes (to a corrupt/immoral/wasteful government). Why work 6 months for a government that I hate?

Rather than disappear I laid off all non-essential staff, stopped marketing and decreased my gross revenue;significantly. Who knows how many people I would employ today (my guess is 8-15 ...today I employ 2, counting me). I know of many producers that have made the same decision. For all I know Mr. Cirino can be added to the list.

The hardest part is that my heart and soul want to produce. A man must live by his values/principals.

Ryan Mount


I'm not sure why some of our Left-leaning brethren wouldn't favor a flat or consumption tax. Wouldn't they rather get 23% than nothing? Or 14%? Even after making reasonable accommodations (credits, pay-outs, etc.) for the underprivileged poor? I know I'm beating a dead horse on this topic.

In my opinion a good chunk of the electorate on the Right and Left and across class boundaries is current experiencing a bout of the Stockholm Syndrome. They've come to love their captors because they're giving them the attention and safety they crave. Not to mention generous tax credits and deductions. ;-)



There are other reasons:

1. Rents are 1/3 - 1/2 less in Grass Valley

2. As businesses keep leaving Nevada City, who will be left? Apparently the county has no problem paying 10K a month to house the Probation Departments offices above Friar Tucks.

3. My elderly friends in Alta Sierra will no longer go to Nevada City in the evenings as they are afraid of the transients.

Paul Emery

I will be interviewing Jerry Cirino tomorrow for airing on KVMR's evening news at 6PM Tune in.

Douglas Keachie

Seems to me that 30 years of two restaurants may lead to aging downsizing, money's be made for good nest egg, and now it is closer to being a hobby, and a passalong to children, who can always reopen in NCity, and probably at a lower rent.

Douglas Keachie

What Nevada City needs is a free, golf cart based jitney, that carts people up and down Broad Street all the way to the Stonehouse, every 10 to 20 minutes, or on call via cell phone. That way all the folks in the B&B's up top would have no qualms about walking or riding all the way down the hill. Make the cell call a mandatory condition, or all the transients would hog the system.

Joe Koyote

A lot of things are at play in the decline of Nevada City night life... an aging population that doesn't go out partying as often or as late. Going out is expensive and many people can no longer afford very many outings per week/month/year. People go to Sizzler because on certain nights they can eat all the salad they want and take the entree home, the rents, the homeless, fear, mediocre overpriced food and drink, so and so forth. All those things that typically plague small towns with tourist dependent economies in hard times. In systems theory the Principle of Multiple-Causation says that any result good or bad is not caused by any one thing or person, but a multiplicity of forces large and small. I have a friend who manages an IT system for a School district of 500,000 people, so a pretty large system. Whenever things go wrong he tells all the people who are complaining that the problem was due to solar flares and to wait ten seconds then reboot their computers. Ninety-nine percent of the time it works.

Paul Emery

Russ Steele | 03 January 2013 at 03:46 PM

That's a very good topic I'll get back to you on but not tonight.


If I'm not mistaken, Jerry owns the building on Broad St., so high rents shouldn't be a problem. I'm guessing he's just tired of the 24/7 life of a restauranteur.

Todd Juvinall

Jerry was one on my bug supporters when I first ran in 1984 for conuty supe. We became friends and have been ever since. He was a success because he is smart and a hardwoking man. I would take his reasons at face value for closing. Unfortunately for America there will be many more sad stories since Obamacare fascists are now loose in the country.

Ryan Mount

So can we say Lefty's *success* is a result of Obamacare as weird as that sounds? (still no details from Mr. Cirino, just vague accusations). The proof, as the saying goes, is in the tasting of the pudding.

Or could the pizza be a little better at Lefty's and it's somewhat yuppie upgrade to the Italian idiom?

Without seeing the books, all of this is just hearsay. Mr. Cirino could have easily said the Mayan Calendar or out space aliens were responsible.

I have no issue with Mr. Cirino closing down, although it's quite sad on a number of levels. The issue is he went public with such fantastic and sensational claims that the government made him do it. It's more cynical than I could ever be.

Michael Anderson

Todd, I believe "co-nutty soup" is on the menu at the Grass Valley restaurant!

* Blend a handful of right-wing supervisors into a heavy cream sauce
* Add coconut milk, Metamucil, mayo, and lemon juice
* Salt and pepper to taste

Cover with tin foil, serve when whacky

Russ Steele


Here is one response to the government made him do it;

"PPACA places additional requirements on companies when employees work more than 30 hours a week. It is more economical to have multiple part timers, than a full time work force. Already, several nationwide companies with major presence in California have announced movement to a greater share of part-time workers, including Darden Restaurants (parent company of Olive Garden and Red Lobster), and CKE Restaurants (parent company of Hardee’s and Carl’s Jr.)."

The government made them switch to a part-time work force to stay economically viable. This makes the employees life much more difficult. Some have to get two jobs to survive.

George Rebane

RyanM 638am - not sure I follow your reasoning(?) about Lefty's since there is nothing in Obamacare that is pro-business. Given the incoming news from across the country, businesses are jumping through some new hoops delivered by Obamacare (and also the late and later resolution of the fiscal cliff issues). With this evidence at hand, I have no reason to doubt Jerry Cirino's interview (in the Union and on KNCO) and his published letter. And more, much more, of the same is coming.

Brad Croul

As the baby boomer proprietors get older, I expect more businesses to close, or be turned over to the next generation. I was talking to one such proprietor recently (I guess he is in his mid 60s) and asked him if he was going to put out a booth in the street for the local street fair. He said no, back in his younger days he used to, but it is just too much hassle anymore to set up all the tables, equipment, and schedule staff. He sounded like he just didn't have the energy anymore. He is not alone. Over time, I would expect less effort being made on the part of aging store owners to improve their buildings, come up with new ideas, products, menu items, etc.
I look forward to the next generation as they take the reigns and breathe new life into our towns. Several new businesses have sprung up in Nevada City. Curly Wolf Espresso, NevaCo, the re-opened Crazy Horse Saloon, The Parlour, the Calla Lilly Crepe Tent, and Kitkitdizzi, (sorry if I left out anyone) are some of the new start-ups in Nevada City run by younger folks. And these business all started within the last 6 months, or so! Still more have started within the last year or two.

Ryan Mount


I have no additional reasoning that I haven't already mentioned. This more than likely has nothing (or very little) to do with the government meddling and more obvious reasons: Lower traffic, new competition, didn't want to be in the grueling restaurant business anymore.

Besides, we have zero proof. None other than hearsay. AND, and this is the BIG AND, there is evidence to support my conclusion: Why is Lefty's succeeding and Cirino's didn't in the SAME environment?

So I was being facetious above with my Obamacare question. I thought my tone was clear, so I beg your pardon.


BTW, I believe businesses under 50 *full-time* people are exempt from health insurance requirement. Certainly a Nevada City restaurant open only for dinner doesn't meet that standard with the exception of a few (<50) employees. I suppose we could include the Grass Valley operation, but are we still at that full time standard? Suppose yes. Then break the businesses up between the kids.

Michael Anderson

Ryan wrote: "Then break the businesses up between the kids."

Yep, exactly. There were plenty of other creative, and legal, ways to get to the "under fifty" number if you really wanted to stay open and the business was successful.

My guess is that--like many others have explicated here--Jerry was tired of running two restaurants and chose to close the one that wasn't doing as well.

But using that closure as a bully pulpit to just bash gov't in general is in poor taste and doesn't really solve any problems. I'd still like to hear Jerry's specific complaints, as well as his suggestions for which gov't rules, regulations, and tax policies need to be fixed in particular, and how, as they relate to his business.

George, I know you have a huge laundry list of complaints about gov't overreach, but I am trying to guide the discussion from a "the sky is falling and we're all screwed" approach to something more specific, which could perhaps be embraced by those who are willing to work in a bipartisan manner in the 113th Congress.

George Rebane

MichaelA 1057am - Guide away Michael, this is the forum for it.

Your correct assessment that it now requires one to become more and more clever to find "other creative, and legal, ways" to do business under this government underlines my point. However, that you are apparently unaware of the massive overreach, which has occurred and is accelerating, is (for me) most remarkable. The only channels which deny or hide such overreach are the compliant lamestream. Everywhere else (blogs, cable, books, magazines, policy institutions, ...) we find reports, studies, analyses, etc of this ongoing travesty. And all the while you progressives are looking around and saying 'What, where? I don't see anything.'

While not claiming to be comprehensive in exposing the perils of the Potomac Octopus, RR has long documented such overreach on everything from California's AB32, through union dominated jurisdictions, public service pension debacles, cities declaring Chapter 9, to early assessments of Obamacare. You can search RR or google these postings; here's an earlier one - http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/07/on-obamacare-lies-from-cato-institute.html


Uttering the word "bipartisan" requires the acceptance of the fact that the USA has a spending problem, not a taxing/revenue problem. Until the left accepts this fact their can be no compromise/bipartisanship.


Today's tax receipts (even before 2013 increases) would have paid for 100% of the Federal Budget just a dozen years ago.

Douglas Keachie

"The government made them switch to a part-time work force to stay economically viable."

However, if said work force is not as cheery and happy as the full time force would be, then it would be counterproductive to make the switch to part time. "Economically viable" is a relative term. I'm sure that most of the employees would have been very happy with Jerry's take-home, no?

To correctly use that term in an absolute sense, you would have to show that running the operation at even minimum wage for the owner would have caused the business to lose money. I'm pretty sure he was miles from there.

Douglas Keachie

But George, the rich keep getting richer, and you just don't get the picture, of the rape of the USA by the 1 percent, do you? It is a country totally out of balance in terms of wealth, not unlike the England the founders fled from, and those at the top are only making jobs overseas, and apparently do not give a damn about what happens here. Republican House defeats aid to Sandy victims? If ever there was a shovel ready bunch of jobs, and the Repubbys are sitting there saying, "it's my bucket and shovel, screw you!"

Oh, they changed their minds: "Congress has approved $9.7 billion in new aid for victims of Hurricane Sandy, with a face-saving quick move by the House taken three days after Speaker John A. Boehner earned scathing criticism from New York and New Jersey Republicans for canceling a late-night vote on the funds.

The bill, which will allow the Federal Emergency Management Agency to pay out claims to those who held federal flood insurance, was approved in the House on a 354 to 67 vote. After the House action, the Senate also adopted by bill in a quick unanimous voice vote, sending it to President Obama."

They damn well better have changed their minds. We just paid $380 for flood insurance this fall, and if word gets out that the gov is going to welsh on those commitments, like they are trying to with social security, then the USA is dead, thanks, Repubbys!

Russ Steele


You are correct the part time approach makes for some unhappy workers. In the real world those that complain are dropped to the bottom of the roster, and those will to work come to the top. At the present time there are enough un-emploied who are willing to work part time so it is not a problem for businesses hunting for employees in service industries, but going up the complexity scale, there are shortage of workers who can weld, operate machine tools, and do engineering calculations. Canada has sent recruiters to California to find employees for their oil and gas fields draining the CA work force, should the lefties decide to allow hydro-fracking, we will be critically short of the necessary workforce.

Douglas Keachie

Steele, the schools have been critically short of the funds to keep shop classes open for the last 60 years, ever since we won WWII. Does that tell you anything?

In 1980, SFUSD had to offer 7 years of seniority in the very first year to get shop teachers at all, to compete with private industry. I know, because I had been working for four years, passed my probabtionary period, and the autoshop guy came on board, with 3 more years than I had.

The next school I went to, I taught video production in what had been a giant metal shop classroom, from which all the tools had been auctioned off. You get the sachools and workers you pay for. So far the 1 % doesn't give a damn. Does it take another WWII?

Joe Koyote

One should hope those dirty lefties NEVER allow hydro-fracking. The San Joaquin Valley, ie. the bread basket of the world, is the next fracking target. Don't the greedy fools in the energy business realize they will screw up the water as they have done elsewhere, and destroy the agriculture industry there? I wouldn't want my tap water to catch on fire. As usual, greed will supplant long term responsible planning.

Michael Anderson

Mikey, I don't know ANYONE who doesn't think the USA has a spending problem. And I know lots of people, left right and center.

Keach, why are you buying flood insurance? I thought you lived on San Juan Ridge (the operative noun being "ridge").

Ryan Mount

Michael A> "I'd still like to hear Jerry's specific complaints, as well as his suggestions for which gov't rules, regulations, and tax policies need to be fixed in particular, and how, as they relate to his business."

That's not an unreasonable request. Paul? You're gonna speak with him tonight.

BTW, the power was out here, so I flipped on KNCO for an update. And I believe I caught the tail end of Mr. Cirino blaming the government for his business decision. Well, I think he said he did blame it, but I sensed equivocation in his language. He said it was a/his business decision AND [NOT because] the government's policies are screwed up.

I'm guessing he's aware of the criticism because this is a change in his rhetoric. The thing is, it's hard to undo the Internet.


Funny MichaelA. I don't know 1 progressive that openly thinks that a spending problem exists (they all blame the rich for 'only' paying 50% of the taxes). And I've not seen 1 democratic politician acknowledge the spending crisis. At best you can get a donkey to pontificate (without action) that future deficits should be less, but that says nothing of the $16+Trillion of existing debt.

How many times do we have to increase the debt limit before the politicians figure out that we are suffering from a spending problem? Never. It will take rising interest rates and pain.

Do they have any idea the hell that will be unleashed if interest rates rose (from near zero today) by 1%, 2% or God help us 3%+? Their inaction answer with a resounding "No."

Joe Koyote

We have a huge spending problem, it's called the military.

Ryan Mount

We have a huge spending problem, it's the other programs that I don't get benefits out of. It's always the other guy's program that's the problem.

On a brighter note, this whole trillion dollar coin thing might actually happen, so we'll finally start monetizing the debt properly. I hope they mint 16 trillion worth of platinum coins. The Dumbasses.


Michael Anderson

Ryan, that would be only 16 coins. Sure hope Uncle Sam doesn't have a hole in his pocket...talk about street change!

Steve Frisch

Funny McD, you must be ignoring the several times here, and at other sites I know your read, that I have said a spending problem exists, and have made specific suggestions about ways we could cut the budget and reduce our federal deficit.

Russ Steele


The Oil and Gas Induetry has been using fracking for over 60 years. They were using when I was in college in the 1950s. I worked in the Wyoming Gas and Oil fields laying over several semester to earn my college money. I was a welders helper and pipe layer and engine mechanic. We used to have to wait for the Haiiburton or Schlumberger logging and fracking trucks to leave before intalling the collection pipes to the well head.

New York studied the fracking problem and this was released yesterday saying no danger of proper procedures were used:

The natural gas drilling process known as fracking would not be a danger to public health in New York state so long as proper safeguards were put into place, according to a health department report that environmentalists fear could help lift a moratorium on the controversial technique.

Governor Andrew Cuomo is weighing the economic benefits of hydraulic fracturing - commonly known as fracking - against the environmental risks from a technology that could unlock a vast domestic energy supply but also one that environmentalists say pollutes groundwater and the air.

Potential hazards could be avoided by implementing precautions the state has identified, according to a February 2012 preliminary assessment from the New York State Department of Health that became widely reported in the media on Thursday.

"Significant adverse impacts on human health are not expected from routine HVHF," or high volume hydraulic fracturing, the document concluded.

The EPA gave their best shot to claim Wyoming fracking was contaminating ground water. But, they failed. The part of the investigation I like was when the EPA lab found fracking chemical in the pure water base line samples. Here is an analysis of the EPA fracking findings:

Six Questions on Pavillion from Energy In Depth

1) Why the huge difference between what EPA found in its monitoring wells and what was detected in private wells from which people actually get their water?

▪ Contrary to what was reported yesterday, the compounds of greatest concern detected by EPA in Pavillion weren’t found in water wells that actually supply residents their water – they were detected by two “monitoring wells” drilled by EPA outside of town.

▪ After several rounds of EPA testing of domestic drinking water wells in town, only one organic compound (bis (2-ethylhexyl) phthalate) was found to exceed state or federal drinking water standards – an additive in plastics and one of the most commonly detected organic compounds in water. According to EPA: “Detections in drinking water wells are generally below established health and safety standards.”

▪ Bruce Hinchey, president of Petroleum Association of Wyoming: “Let me be clear, the EPA’s findings indicate that there is no connection between oil and natural gas operations and impacts to domestic water wells.” (PAW press release, Dec. 8, 2011)

▪ In contrast, EPA found “a wide variety of organic chemicals” in its two monitoring wells, with greater concentrations found in the deeper of the two. The only problem? EPA drilled its monitoring wells into a hydrocarbon-bearing formation. Think it’s possible that could explain the presence of hydrocarbons?

▪ According to governor of Wyoming: “The study released today from EPA was based on data from two test wells drilled in 2010 and tested once that year and once in April, 2011. Those test wells are deeper than drinking wells. The data from the test wells was not available to the rest of the working group until a month ago.” (Gov. Mead press release, issued Dec. 8, 2011)

2) After reviewing the data collected by Region 8, why did EPA administrator Lisa Jackson tell a reporter that, specific to Pavillion, “we have absolutely no indication now that drinking water is at risk”? (video available here)

▪ Of note, Administrator Jackson offered those comments to a reporter from energyNOW! a full week after Region 8 publicly released its final batch of Pavillion data. In that interview, Jackson indicates that she personally analyzed the findings of the report, and was personally involved in conversations and consultations with staff, local officials, environmental groups, the state and the operator.

▪ After reviewing all that information, and conducting all those interviews, if the administrator believed that test results from EPA’s monitoring wells posed a danger to the community, why would she say the opposite of that on television?

▪ And if she believed that the state of Wyoming had failed to do its job, why would she – in that same interview – tell energyNOW! that “you can’t start to talk about a federal role [in regulating fracturing] without acknowledging the very strong state role.” (2:46) A week later, why did she choose to double-down on those comments in an interview with Rachel Maddow, telling the cable host that “states are stepping up and doing a good job”? (9:01, aired Nov. 21, 2011)

3) Did all those chemicals that EPA used to drill its monitoring wells affect the results?

▪ Diethanolamine? Anionic polyacrylamide? Trydymite? Bentonite? Contrary to conventional wisdom, chemicals are needed to drill wells, not just fracture them – even when the purpose of those wells has nothing to do with oil or natural gas development.

▪ In this case, however, EPA’s decision to use “dense soda ash” as part of the process for drilling its monitoring wells could have proved a bad one.

▪ One of the main justifications EPA uses to implicate hydraulic fracturing as a source of potential contamination is the high pH readings it says it found in its monitoring wells. But dense soda ash has a recorded pH (11.5) very similar to the level found in the deep wells, creating the possibility that the high pH recorded by EPA could have been caused by the very chemicals it used to drill its own wells.

▪ According to Tom Doll, supervisor of the Wyoming Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: “More sampling is needed to rule out surface contamination or the process of building these test wells as the source of the concerning results.” (as quoted in governor’s press release, Dec. 8, 2011)

4) Why is the author so confident that fracturing is to blame when most of his actual report focuses on potential issues with casing, cement and legacy pits?

▪ The report singles-out old legacy pits (which the operator had already voluntarily placed in a state remediation program prior to EPA’s investigation) as the most obvious source of potential contamination. These decades-old pits, which are obviously no longer used, have nothing to do with hydraulic fracturing.

▪ From the report (page xi): “Detection of high concentrations of benzene, xylenes, gasoline range organics, diesel range organics, and total purgeable hydrocarbons in ground water samples from shallow monitoring wells near pits indicates that pits are a source of shallow ground water contamination in the area of investigation. Pits were used for disposal of drilling cuttings, flowback, and produced water. There are at least 33 pits in the area of investigation.“

▪ From the report’s concluding paragraph: “[T]his investigation supports recommendations made by the U.S. Department of Energy Panel on … greater emphasis on well construction and integrity requirements and testing. As stated by the panel, implementation of these recommendations would decrease the likelihood of impact to ground water and increase public confidence in the technology.” (p. 39)

5) 2-BE or not 2-BE? That is the question.

▪ EPA indicates that it found tris (2-butoxyethyl) phosphate in a few domestic water wells. What the agency doesn’t mention is that this chemical is a common fire retardant found in plastics and plastic components used in drinking water wells. It’s not 2-BE, which, although also a common material, is sometimes associated with the completions process.

▪ According to EPA, in one of the eight samples collected, a small amount of 2-BE was detected. Interestingly, two other EPA labs that measured for the same exact compound reported not being able to detect it in the duplicate samples they were given.

▪ According to Wyo. governor Mead: “Members of the [Pavillion] working group also have questions about the compound 2-BE, which was found in 1 sample … while other labs tested the exact same water sample and did not find it.” (Mead press release, Dec. 8, 2011)

6) Is EPA getting enough potassium?

▪ Several times in its report, EPA notes that potassium and chloride levels were found to be elevated in its monitoring wells. But just because you have potassium and chloride doesn’t mean you’ve got potassium chloride, a different chemical entirely and one that’s sometimes associated with fracturing solutions. Nowhere in its report does EPA suggest that potassium chloride was detected.

▪ According to several USGS studies of groundwater quality in the area, variable — and in some cases, high — concentrations of potassium and chloride have been detected in Pavillion-area groundwater for more than 20 years. (USGS 1991, 1992)

▪ Interestingly, the potassium levels detected in EPA’s first monitoring well declined by more than 50 percent from October 2010 to April 2011, while the potassium level in EPA’s second monitoring well increased during that same period. Only natural variations in groundwater flow and/or composition could have accounted for this disparity.

As for the fire in the water faucet:

It tunrs out that the fire from the faucet in the Gasland movie was naturally occuring methane and had nothing to do with fracking. The whole movie has been discredited by factual investigations.

Put down your lefty talking points and use your Internet!

Douglas Keachie

MA, invested in Marysville fixer, up here I can dock Noah's Ark in a pinch. We don't have a "spending" problem. We have a "what to do with all these excess American citizens and union busting illegal immigrants problem, now that we've drained very penny of worth of value out of them." The rich would probably find it cheaper to make payoffs to foreign countries to take in the excess, and would, if they only could.

Russ Steele


Joe you are wrong again! Spending on non-defense programs has grown 29 percent. ... Entitlement spending more than doubled over the past 20 years, growing by 110 percent. There are some nice graphic at the URL below, if you are just a visual learner.


Did you note the defense spending is going down and non-defense spending is growing? Put down your liberal talking points and do a little research.

Ryan Mount

Michael>"Ryan, that would be only 16 coins"

I want to preface what I have to say that the truth is stranger than fiction.

Michael, they're literally talking about minting Platinum Trillion (with a T) dollar coins (1 Trillion each) to cut the Republicans off at the debt ceiling pass. My suggestion is that they go all the way monetize the entire 16 Trillion.

The way the monetizers think is that that can sop up all of the inflation and liquidity later on via bonds. This somewhat absurd solution of minting a couple of Trillion Dollar coins is actually being taken seriously. My suggested, as noted on facebook, would be to put Dr. Oz or Snooki's faces on the coin to insure higher value.

I thought it was some kind of theOnion.com parody, but as it turns out, Congress actually passed a law back in the 1990s which authorized this odd printing. And now some law makers are considering it as a hedge against the House Republicans.

Joe Koyote

So what Russ? Who cares what percentages are what, up down or sideways. We spend more on the military than most of the rest of the developed world combined, for what?

Ryan Mount

Joe> "for what?"

Here's what George would say. (I've asked him this on a few occasions, so Mr. Rebane, pardon my presumptuous and my poor paraphrasing):

To keep our lifestyle and liberties in secure. It's a deliberate hegemony whereby we keep the peace and become the world's police force. Having Carrier Battle Groups and a strong nuclear arsenal is a strong deterrent, foreign policy hawks tell us, to would be foreign dick-heads.

I'm guessing we're done talking about whether Mr. Cirino really meant what he's been telling us. I hope Paul asks some tough questions tonight. We'll see.

Douglas Keachie

The modern process of fracking did not come into practice until 1998. Steele's teenhood experiences are not an indication of the safety of the processes, as not enough time has elapsed for good studies of what the modern techniques can do. One issue that concerns me is the focus on the liquids shot underground, and the statements that they cannot penetrate the layers above. They may not be able to penetrate said layers, but gases they may create underground stand a much better chance of percolating through the layers above, and creating nasty compounds in the aquifiers. This issue is unaddressed anywhere that I know of.

Michael Anderson

Ryan, I would like to see Kim Kardashian's rear end on the new trillion dollar platinum coin. Of course, that would require a surface area the size of the East Main St. roundabout, so perhaps this idea is not practical.


Regarding the spending crisis. BREAKING: CBO Admits Error, Now Expects ADDITIONAL $600 Billion In Deficits From Obama Tax Cuts! LOL.


"...widening of the budget deficit will increase interest payments on the federal debt, an impact that is not included in CBO’s cost estimates. The additional debt service will cost about $600 billion. "


I thought Mount would appreciate:
A Modest Proposal To Boost US GDP By $852 Quadrillion: Build The Imperial Death Star


Russ Steele


You wrote "The modern process of fracking did not come into practice until 1998" It was the modern practice of horizontal drilling that was developed in the late 1990s not the fracking process. Fracking has been around for a long time.

Douglas Keachie

Drilling straigh down and lubing may be one thing. Drilling sideways may have far greater potential for damages, and we do not know what we are messing with, as usual. And doing it wholesale under the prime growing region of California and the USA? How stupid and greedy can people get?

Douglas Keachie

Any group that pays to be exempted from the Clean Water Act of 2005 obviously has something to hide from scientific investigations done by independent parties:

"Except for diesel-based additive fracturing fluids, noted by the American Environmental Protection Agency to have a higher proportion of volatile organic compounds and carcinogenic BTEX, use of fracturing fluids in hydraulic fracturing operations was explicitly excluded from regulation under the American Clean Water Act in 2005, a legislative move that has since attracted controversy for being the product of special interests lobbying."

Paul Emery

If you miss tonight's KVMR newscast you can hear a podcast of my interview with Jerry Cirino here.


It's about 15 minutes long.

George Rebane

PaulE 611pm - good interview. I'm not sure what more we found out except his putting a human face/voice on the issue.

Ben Emery

My wife and I listened to the last couple nights and were floored at how bogus the reasoning for closing Cirino's was put out for public consumption by Jerry. I don't know Jerry but have been a consistent patron to the Nevada City location for years. My wife has a degree in Hotel and Restaurant Management from UMass and owned a restaurant for a dozen years. I helped operate/ managed it and became working business partner for the last few years. We had up to 18 employees during the busy seasons.

Here (Paraphrasing) is what Jerry told me at Victorian Christmas when I bought a Bloody Mary Mix from him. I was trying to retire last year from the business and my wife put together this bloody mary mix gig and it has taken off. Last night he said he was making money in the business in Nevada City but was closing the restaurant down. If he was making money then the business was viable. I know he claimed he studied future legislation and it was going to be to hard but once again it is bogus to blame employees. I have managed a number of restaurants in my life and employees are going to be very difficult no matter how good the core group is and that is part of doing business. What my paraphrase was alluding to was it sounded like Jerry took his wanting to retire for an opportunity to push a political ideology or political agenda. My guess is he truly talked himself into what he claimed but from being a person who worked in restaurants or food industry for many many years his claims seem to be a bit overblown and ideologically based.
His reasoning for closing the business could have been lifted straight from the CABPRO or any hard right website.

Douglas Keachie

Excellent audio quality, first tme I've tried a podcast.

Russ Steele


Ben, I did not get the impression that Jerry was blaming the employees, he was pointing to the regulations and the other crap that was being levied by the state on his business, relative to having employees.

If you and the wife are sure this will continue to be viable business location in the future, check with Jerry and he may be willing to lease you and your wife the whole shebang. Let's see how you can make it work and prove Jerry wrong.

I found it interesting that GV was growing and NC seem to be declining due to the business environment in the city. Jerry seems to think that the future was in GV.

Ben Emery

Jerry's conclusion of his researching the next few years of legislation and its implementation was saying having employees is too much work. I didn't realize Obamacare and the unmentioned federal/ state laws didn't apply in Grass Valley? The housing crisis has nothing to do with a 1% tax on the lumber/ timber industry. It has to do with the thieves that call themselves bankers being predators on the public without any real accountability by the public because our tool of accountability is owned by the banks. Only a few banks have more assets than half of the GDP of the US, $7.5 trillion. The same banks hold over 50% of mortgages and 66% of credit cards. Again what he said at the Victorian Christmas was he was either retired or trying to retire. That tells me Jerry wasn't going to continue running the restaurant(s) no matter what was happening in the next few years and this statement was more a political statement than an explanation of why the Cirino's restaurant was closing.

My wife and I were thinking about a creamery a few years back but decided against it. We were both self employed and doing well so we decided against it.


Me too. I'm self-employed. Having employees is too much hassle. That's what I hear from those who do.

Brad Croul

While listening to Jerry Cirino's anti-government rant, a couple of things came out that sounded like bonafide reasons for closing. Mr. Cirino said that the Grass Valley restaurant is a higher volume, larger capacity restaurant and growing at 12% a year. Also, he prefers what he described as a better business climate in GV that it is more conducive to his long term business plans. The bottom line for him was not government regulation, but the fact that the Nevada City location did not have the volume, and if he continued to stay open, he would deplete his savings account as the income would not keep up with the overhead associated with that older restaurant.

I don't know why Mr. Cirino did not feel he could have just said, "Because this restaurant is not making enough money to support itself, we are going to have to close this location".

Not sure what the lumber tax and transfat legislation has to do with Cirino's closing.

The lumber tax is not that big a deal according to builders,

But California home builders don't share the retailers' concerns about the small hike in lumber prices.

"Mike Winn, president of the California Building Industry Assn., predicted that the tax will add only about $115 to the cost of a typical 2,000-square-foot new home. His 3,200-member organization did not oppose the governor's legislation.

The new measure, to take effect Jan. 1, shifts the cost of forest land regulation from timber companies to consumers. Supporters, including the California Forestry Assn., said it broadens financial support for the program and allows California forest products companies to better compete with out-of-state timber firms.

The bill also includes a controversial provision that put legal limits on the ability of government agencies to sue landowners, timber operators and others whose negligence might have caused forest fires.

"This legislation enacts serious bipartisan reform to even the playing field to protect California's timber industry jobs," Brown said in a Sept. 11 signing statement."


Also, plenty of cakes had been baked before transfats were developed, and Crisco has not contained transfats since 1997.

Russ Steele

USA Today: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013.

Many businesses plan to bring on more part-time workers next year, trim the hours of full-time employees or curtail hiring because of the new health care law, human resource firms say.

Their actions could further dampen job growth, which already is threatened by possible federal budget cutbacks resulting from the tax increases and spending cuts known as the fiscal cliff.
"It will have a negative impact on job creation" in 2013, says Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody's Analytics.

Under the Affordable Care Act, businesses that employ at least 50 full-time workers — or the equivalent, including part-time workers — must offer health insurance to staffers who work at least 30 hours a week. Employers that don't provide coverage must pay a $2,000-per-worker penalty, excluding the first 30 employees.

The so-called employer mandate to offer health coverage doesn't take effect until Jan. 1, 2014. But to determine whether employees work enough hours on average to receive benefits, employers must track their schedules for three to 12 months prior to 2014 — meaning many are restructuring payrolls now or will do so early next year.

Steve Frisch

Think of all the employment that bringing 59.1 million uninsured Americans into the system will create. It is Schumpeter's gale my friends.

George Rebane

Good input Russ (315pm); here's more stuff from Cato on Obamacare's impact on small businesses.

And knowing that none of this will impact our progressive friends who are convinced that Jerry Cirino was just bullshitting us, here is more on the recalcitrance of the Left in seeing problems with Obamacare, and why its critics have no reason to give up.

George Rebane

SteveF 425pm - unfortunately none of that kind of work will contribute to creating wealth, but only increase the rate at which our national debt grows (see the unsustainable EU nationalized healthcare costs). If it did create wealth, then we will have discovered the economic equivalent of perpetual motion. (See also Bastiat's broken window homily.) But this kind of nostrums are the progressives' siren song - they will not be dissuaded from pushing the nation into such wonderful stratagems, and then require more government, taxing, and spending when it hits the mud. Seat belts and helmets are advised for passengers on this train to glory.

Paul Emery

So George, is there wealth created when people go bankrupt paying medical bills? Is wealth created when peopls are prevented from going into private business because they can't buy at any reasonable price health insurance that covers preexisting conditions? Is wealth created when easily treatable medical problems are neglected and become more serious because people cannot afford to go to the doctor? Is wealth created when preventable medicine is unavailable in situations like my friend who had to have two heart attacks and the second was preventable but not possible because it was not the direct cause of his emergency, Is wealth created when we take Romney's advise and use the emergency room as our family doctor?

George Rebane

PaulE 825pm - That's a whole platoon of straw men you've set marching. What's your intention for them? You sound once more as if Obamacare was the only possible response to our healthcare problems. And it's not possible that Obamacare has made the situation worse.

Paul Emery

My "straw men marching" as you put it is a snapshot of our current health care "system." I am just inquiring as to whether that system is , in your mind, wealth creating.

George Rebane

PaulE 905pm - We are told that it makes up over 16% of our GDP. Does all of it come from private sector; absolutely not (think of Medicare, Medicaid, prescription subsidies, etc). And Obamacare will make that worse. But you tend to mix economics with people 'dying in the street'. No one has yet to come up with a sustainable program to prevent all indigent deaths that require transfer payments. Have we circled this barn before?

Douglas Keachie

I'll support the businesses that are run well enough to attract the best employees who will seek out full time work with health care that is adequate. Let the businesses die that can't compete, and let them be replaced by those with better thought out business plans.

Turnabout's fair play, no?

You'd fire the employee that couldn't solve the problem, right?

Steve Frisch

Doug, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. I don't know Jerry Cirino, or his business, but government regulation that he has to deal with is no different than government regulation that any other restaurant owner has to deal with. The entire rational rings hollow to me. This is creative destruction pure and simple. It is the sort of capitalism George and Russ usually applaud.

George Rebane

DouglasK 1203am - That's the spirit Doug; that'll learn 'em durn 'em. No one should have a right to work at a job that doesn't provide adequate healthcare, let 'em draw unemployment instead.


Only the liberal mind can believe that more regulations are good for business

Only the liberal mind can believe that more taxes are good for business

Only the liberal mind can discount the countless business owners (myself included) that openly cite regulations/taxes as impediments to job creation, wealth and society improving production.

Only the liberal mind can feel like only more laws can save a tiny minority of possible health care related BK's by making everyone weaker and closer to BK.

Only the liberal mind can ignore the fact that 'Crony capitalism' requires regulations/taxes(read big government) to exist/thrive.

The equation for health and prosperity is simple but it requires the individual to hold power over the mob. Free the markets and you will free the people.


Anyone following The Free State Project (NH)?


From democratic (liberal)state Rep. Cynthia Chase, D-Keene

Free Staters Unwelcome Here
In the opinion of this Democrat, Free Staters are the single biggest threat the state is facing today. There is, legally, nothing we can do to prevent them from moving here to take over the state... What we can do is to make the environment here so unwelcoming that some will choose not to come, and some may actually leave. One way is to pass measures that will restrict the "freedoms" that they think they will find here."

Russ Steele


I just finished reading KinderGarden Of Eden: How the Modern Liberal Thinks by Evan Sayet and you are spot on. The mindless foot soldiers of the left keep marching on unable to accept the facts, while they continue to twist reality to fit their view of the universe.
At some point there will have to be a reality check, but I am not expecting it during my life time.

Steve Frisch

I am all for you guys tuning out, turning off and dropping out. Although I suspect Oklahoma is a more likely destination that New Hampshire!

Douglas Keachie

We tried unbridled capitalism back in the 1880's. It didn't work so well, except for Carnegie, Rockefeller, and Vanderbilt, and a couple of guys playing with choo-choos and the California legislature. Wasn't that a time?!?

Ben Emery

Here are some facts that are very well researched from actual physicians and health care workers about implementing a single payer program. A federal program would have done the same thing the California SB 810 would have done, reduced the cost of the government of overall spending on health care. Hopefully Senator Leno reintroduces the bill this session and the Democrats don't sabotage it like last time. We know all Republicans won't vote against profits for private industry because the party has become almost exclusively corporatist.

Facts about National Health Insurance (NHI) You Might Not Know

The health care delivery system remains private. As opposed to a national health service, where the government employs doctors, in a national health insurance system, the government is billed, but doctors remain in private

A national health insurance program could save approximately $150 billion on paperwork alone. Because of the administrative complexities in our current system, over 25% of every health care dollar goes to marketing, billing,
utilization review, and other forms of waste. A single-payer system could reduce administrative costs greatly.

Most businesses would save money. Because a single-payer system is more efficient than our current system, health care costs are less, and therefore, businesses save money. In Canada, the three major auto manufacturers (Ford, GM, and Daimler-Chrysler) have all publicly endorsed Canada’s single-payer health system from a business and financial standpoint. In the United States, Ford pays more for its workers health insurance than it does for the steel to make its cars.

Under NHI, your insurance doesn’t depend on your job. Whether you’re a student, professor, or working part-time raising children, you’re provided with care. Not only does this lead to a healthier population, but it’s also beneficial from an economic standpoint: workers are less-tied to their
employers, and those that dislike their current positions can find new work
(where they would be happier and most likely more productive and efficient).

Myths about National Health Insurance (NHI)

The government would dictate how physicians practice medicine.
In countries with a national health insurance system, physicians are rarely questioned about their medical practices (and usually only in cases of expected fraud). Compare it to today’s system, where doctors routinely have to ask an insurance company permission to perform procedures, prescribe certain medications, or run certain tests to help their patients.

George Rebane

BenE 148pm - how can we get some of this good information into the hands of the EU governments, our own CBO, the thousands of healthcare workers who are planning early retirements/exits from the industry, and the uncountable young people who are saying that they will take a pass on going into healthcare (save becoming a govt employee enforcing Obamacare)?

Oh, and we shouldn't forget to inform the non-Keynesian economists and institutions like Cato about the myths they have been promulgating.

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