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11 January 2013



If there were any question about what level of freedom our President believes we should have, with respect to our ability to defend ourselves, I believe his record as an Illinois legislator makes it clear. President Obama does not believe we as citizens should possess firearms, even for hunting or self defense. His latest effort to restrict access to firearms has nothing to do with scary looking guns the left has labeled assault weapons. The President and his leftist cadre simply believe that the actions of a monster have presented an opportunity to take a step toward their goal of completely disarming the public. They're probably right. The Obama electoral victory of 2012 made it abundantly clear that this nation has lost its once voracious appetite for freedom. The debate is no longer one about constitutional rights, we have none; it is a policy discussion about how best to keep society safe. And as with most policy discussions with this President, facts don’t matter. He has an agenda, and there is nobody to stop him from implementing it. What are the chances the Congress won't give the President everything he wants on gun control and we'll hear apologies from Speaker Boehner and Mitch McConnell along the lines of, "It was the best deal Republicans could get." With or without Congress, the President has vowed to act. And if a clearly unconstitutional law, order, or mandate were to make it to the Supreme Court, count on Chief Justice Roberts to bless it by calling it a tax or use some other contortion to abdicate his responsibility. http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2013/01/11/obama-opposed-gun-ban-exception-defend-home/

Steve Enos

So I'm a "lib" AND I support the 2nd Amendment. I live in California where gun control has been real active and has a long list of rules that are some of the most restrictive in the Country.

So now we have Hollywood celebrities screaming for more gun control and complaining about violence and they demand "A Plan". But the fact is THEY promote violance and THEY make a lot of money off it. They demand one thing while they do another.

Watch these to videos. The first is a bit "adult" and compares what THEY say vs. what THEY do in a side-by-side video.

The second video is about the Hollywood celeb's and their expensive, highly trained and well armed body guards and personal security forces they have. Mean time the average person is left to defend for themselves as we sure don't have our own armed, trained, for hire security force to do it.

Here's video one:


Here's video two:



Steve Enos, thanks especially for the second link, the kid's OK.

No need to ban private security... just forbid its deductibility on federal or state returns for either individuals or companies.

On the basic subject, can anyone tell me why the police "need" more than 10 round magazines, and how that's different than an individual's "need"?


Interesting question about the needs of law enforcement, Greg. If law enforcement authority comes from the people, how can the people not have every right to the same tools of self defense available to their servants?


you need as much as you need - if there are 2 or three "bad guys" it might take 12 to 15 rounds expended to neutralize the situation - or witness the bank robbery in SoCal several years ago when the 2 perps were not only well armed but armored as well.

what is not discussed is the number of times guns have prevented a crime that never even gets reported

Paul Emery


So who would this armed citizenry be shooting at if they had to confront a " government turned rogue?"

the National Guard, Highway Patrol, Nevada City Police, Game Wardens, the Marines, Air Force and Army,
some hidden secret police, the secret commie armies training in the Sierras, eco warriers ? Can you give more details about who this might be? It seems like our citizens and neighbors to me.

George Rebane

PaulE 645pm - IMHO, that is a snarky little comment, else you are a naif (which I don't believe). An armed citizenry today needs no more training or detailed directions about whom to oppose when the time comes than did our forebears in 1775.


Paul, how many LE do you think would attempt to confiscate firearms in rural areas?

Ryan Mount

Michael the other day posted a link to the "Australian solution." There solution was a massive buy back of certain classes of weapons in 1996/97 following a horrific Tasmanian massacre, and another one in 2003 following another one.

There have been several studies regarding the efficacy of these new laws with mixed results. The one that caught my eye was the one that had some scientific structural analysis while the others had sociological generalizations. (still interesting, but no hard data._

First start here:


And note that the vast majority of massacres were against UNARMED indigenous peoples. (think I'm bullshitting? read this:

Then go here:


Which discusses a pivotal event in Australian gun policy in 1996 (white people got shot).

Then finally read this:


Which comes to the sobering conclusion that seizing weapons doesn't really stop people from shooting up other people.

Ryan Mount

My apologies. The last link is a horrific URL and indeed broken. (ironic since it's the the most important).

Try this for the sober report I refer to:



Rogue is rogue, Paul. When Condi Rice was a little girl, her dad and the other men in the neighborhood sat quietly in their homes with their guns while nightriders, with the tacit approval and, most expect, including members of the local constabulary, went looking for Negroes to harass. Few shots had to be fired, cowards looking for trouble look for soft targets.

You miss the basic point; as long as the people retain the right to keep and bear arms, there probably won't be any rogue action by any governmental agency. The Swiss haven't had many problems in the last several centuries and even during WWII, the Japanese military were aware if they tried an invasion they'd potentially be facing a rifle from behind every blade of grass.


one major difference between American Citizens and most other inhabitants of the 3rd rock from Sol

we are not subjects

Douglas Keachie

The divide as illustrated on my Facebook stream:

GunsAgainJan2013 copy

Note that my solution does not depend on outlaws obeying the laws.


It uses the potential loss of cash by legitimate gun owners, if they get sloppy or deliberately allow their guns to fall into the wrong hands. I guess youknowwho will never do an honest comparison between the quantity and quality of gun powder in a .223 vs the quantity and quality of gunpowder in a .22LR. It took George to get the job done right.

Michael Anderson

Re.: "...how can the people not have every right to the same tools of self defense available to their servants?"

Horse. Left. Barn.

Sound wave weapons. Weaponized drones. Space-based lasers. Various "soft" crowd pleasers. Chemicals and other irritants. Robots, both air and ground-based.

Sorry guys, you and your buddies with some AR-15s and M-1 Garands aren't going to be able to do much. OK sure, you might get the local constabulary to back you, and maybe even a local Army base or 3, but if Washington D.C. were to ever feel truly threatened, you would be toast, up to and including the use of whatever weapon of mass destruction works best.

It's time to rethink the strategy, folks.

Michael Anderson

Greg, the kid video is silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqQ5ij3UYb0).

Yes, the celebrities have security guards. That's because the American culture of gun violence makes them targets. They don't want to be targets anymore, and they see moderate gun rules and regulations as a way to not only keep them from being killed by a gun wacko, but maybe even a coupla classrooms full of kids.

Frankly, it's not worth debating on this blog. You guys are not getting the whole marketing thing, you are fundamentally NOT UNDERSTANDING how the messaging is working.

You are LOSING in the marketplace of ideas. Not because your ideas are bad, but because your delivery is so ONEROUS.

But do carry on. This will be fun to watch.

Michael Anderson

BTW George, I would like to enter my interpretation of "gun wacko" into your RR glossary: "Someone who should not have access to guns, who is mentally unstable and for whom the family has tried with no success to deal with that mental illness, and who for some reason or other is able to gain access to guns and kills multiple persons."


Michael A, ask Bashar Assad how easy it is to stamp out unrest with an armed civilian population opposed to being stomped. And I'm not as confident as you (having been there) the US armed forces would show the same loyalty as the Syrian. If everyday gun crime were the target, they'd be after hand guns, not assault weapons, no? L

Russ Steele


Here is an example of losing control of the message: http://senatorfeinstein.com

More to come. The messaging war has just begun. Stay Tuned!

George Rebane

On 'The Great Divide ...' piece I posted the following comment re gun control. It is the argument that the Left never wants to address about the purpose and function of par force.

MichaelA 1029am - Right on schedule. That argument against the 2nd Amend and the continued viability of the Constitution is a classical liberal shibboleth. It assumes that any rebellion will be a stasist standoff between a permanently underarmed populace and a permanently superior state sponsored military, with its foregone outcome. This is a gross error that has been disproved an uncounted number of times, and as recently as by the Arab spring uprisings and the current civil war in Syria. And please reread my par force paper so we don't have to go around this 'hydrogen bomb in the basement' nonsense again.

A rogue government will immediately seek to brand armed citizen resistance against it as fomented by foreign terrorists or a sedition by a minority (the latter is technically correct). Any successful resistance must stay alive long enough to get its message out to the nation, and to the armed forces. Anyone who has been in the US military knows how that institution will respond when asked to engage underarmed citizens willing to lay down their lives for liberty.

As history has shown, it is all in how well any resistance can go through its fragile birth and make its cause known. That is why tyrants and pre-rogue governments want a disarmed populace so that massive arrests can take place quickly and quietly. It was ever thus.

Posted by: George Rebane | 09 January 2013 at 11:12 AM

Account Deleted

I can't speak for the entire military, but I know 5 young folk who are in or just out of the military. Most have multiple tours in the middle east. If they were ordered by Obama to fire at Americans citizens I know every one of them would turn and shoot the one that gave the order.

Russ Steele

Oh my, more problems for the messaging:

A PALPABLE LACK OF ENTHUSIASM: Dem Senator Mark Begich: I’m “not interested” in a new assault-weapons ban. “Other red-state Democrats up for reelection: Mary Landrieu, Max Baucus, Tim Johnson, Kay Hagan, and Mark Pryor. Landrieu and Baucus voted no when the last AWB came up for renewal in 2004, and although Pryor voted yes, Arkansas wasn’t quite as red then as it is now. There’s no chance Reid will get to 60 in the Senate for a new ban; there’s a very slim chance that he won’t even get to 50. If you’re Pryor and you’re facing a tough campaign on unfavorable terrain, what’s your incentive for voting for a new AWB that hasn’t a prayer of passing?” Especially when it’s not going to get through the House.

Steve Frisch

PaulE 645pm - IMHO, that is a snarky little comment, else you are a naif (which I don't believe). An armed citizenry today needs no more training or detailed directions about whom to oppose when the time comes than did our forebears in 1775.

Posted by: George Rebane | 11 January 2013 at 07:00 PM

Lets just be clear here boys, the essence of this potion of the case for the 2nd amendment is that we will need to kill policemen, government representatives, members of our military and political leaders. Violent revolution is not about handing out daisies...it is about shooting people in the head.

That's not a "snarky" comment, its the facts.

George Rebane

As an overarching afterthought on the progressives' belief system as it pertains to their counsel that resisting our government's technologically superior military is futile - that may explain the Left's worship of anything relating to big government. It is the secular humanist analogue of other belief systems (i.e. religions) what worship beings which are omniscient and omnipotent. When viewed from that perspective, their faith may have some logic behind it after all - government is their god.

And it does appear that SteveF (927pm) is beginning to get a glimmer here. He seems to understand against whom the Founders provided citizens with the ability to bear arms. What still clouds his and other such minds is that to them the inconceivable notion that "policemen, government representatives, members of military, and political leaders" would ever do anything that deserved armed resistance. But it's a start, and there is yet time.

Paul Emery

RE: George Rebane | 11 January 2013 at 07:00 PM

"An armed citizenry today needs no more training or detailed directions about whom to oppose when the time comes than did our forebears in 1775."

So at that moment of truth millions of Americans will, without leadership or prompting, exercise their 2nd Amendment option each in his own way. Government bad!! dog catcher bang bang, city police-bang bang, neighbors who are pro government sympathizers-bang bang. Millions of Timothy McVeys each fighting their own revolution without "training or detailed directions about whom to oppose"

Paul Emery

One more thing George. In your view what is the threshold that the Second Amendment Option is triggered? Who will blow the trumpet and shout "charge".

Joe Koyote

RE: armed rebellion against a rogue govt. One of my oldest and best friends has a brother who was a Major in the CA National guard. During the anti-war riots after the Kent State Shootings he told my friend that if he were ordered to fire and his brother was in the line of fire... too bad. so maybe or maybe not Americans would shoot other American rebels. It would depend on the facts or lies as the case may be. The goons who work for Blackwater like defense contractors would shoot, no questions asked. During Tiananmen Square the local militias and police units refused to leave their barracks and march on the students so they brought in soldiers from Manchuria who knew nothing of the riots and were told the kids were evil. A rogue gov't will find a way to slaughter resistance if needed. The idea is to never let them gain power in the first place. One definition of fascism is the marriage of corporations and government. We are already there in that respect and the hate and name calling (moron party, etc.) that seems to echo on these pages toward opposing opinions has a brownshirt tone to it. If it ever comes to America, and I doubt it, the poor and hungry will rise up and invade the gated communities, not for power but for food. Fasten your seatbelts and take the safety off your assault rifles for the masses will be coming for their fair share one way or the other. The American Revolution was about equality of opportunity not just the replacement of a king with robber barons.

Ben Emery

To bring a different angle to this conversation, this issue isn't about guns it is about inequality and mental health. In less equal societies violent crime increases as does mental health. If we put guns into the equation we then get what we have over the last two decades or so.

The US in the 40's through 70's was the most socially mobile nation on the planet. Today we are the second worst out of developed nations for inequality and social mobility. Other symptoms of inequality is the increased

Teenage Birth
Heart Disease
Poor Health
High Imprisonment

Since the Reagan Counter Revolution we have seen all of these issues explode in our nation. Conservative Supply Side Economics and the policies that follow it have destroyed what was gained in the progressive era that the Tea Party wants to get back to. We are in the second coming of the robber baron ear and the gilded age. Only extreme right wing ideology could or want to move us back in time to some of the most unequal times in US history.

Russ Steele


I suggest that you come up to the Range for Father’s Day Ammo sale and interview the 400 plus people with the hand trucks picking up a years plus supply of ammo, that is if they will talk to you. A better approach might be to just wander around and listen to the conversations. You will find that many of the folks are preparing to respond to an oppressive government. They are organized, have some coherent leadership and a plan of action. Nevada County is only one location where people are preparing. There are similar groups through out California and the Western states. You will be surprised who are members of these groups, and they are very selective on who gets to join. Entry requires a skill set needed by the group. Ex-military have many of the needed skill sets. You need to expand your social circle and you will be surprised what you will discover.

Steve Frisch

Yeah Paul, go out to the range and meet the Militia! (But you can't get in because you are a Hippie; the Hippies will have to start their own militia, then, when the sh*# hits the fan, the Hippie militia will be the first ones the 'real American militia' goes after because they are holders of a dangerous alternative world view)

Don't you somehow find it ironic that the people who are arming to resist an 'oppressive government' are so often the very same ones who collect a pension for supporting an 'oppressive government'.

Russ Steele


You wrote, "In less equal societies violent crime increases" Really? where do you get your information?

Adjusted violent victimization rates. Number of victimizations per 1,000 population age 12 or older

1973 47.7
1974 48.0
1975 48.4

2007 20.4
2008 19.0
2009 16.9

Looks like the trend is less violent crime, not more. According to your measure we are becoming a more equatable society.

More Details HERE: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm


It seems inconceivable to some here that enough citizens might actually revolt against the government, whether their chances to succeed are remote or not. Maybe they ought to re-read the history of the United States. There were many with an attachment to the mother country who felt that way back then also.Who in their right mind would challenge the greatest military on earth?
You don't have to believe Russ's stats or observations of folks getting ready for an uncertain future. The truth is in the staggering amount of firearms and ammo sold since Newtown. It should be clear to any yo-yo that Americans will never give up their guns.
The Dems know the numbers, and you can already see some backpedaling on any onerous new restrictions. The prospect of a gun-free America with schools protected by invisible bullet-proof unicorns is as far away as ever.

George Rebane

BenE 1012am, 1023am - If those are serious comments, perhaps my 700pm assessment was premature.


Earl, Dems may be shooting themselves in the foot, slo-mo. Where's Sam Peckinpah when you need him?

Was heading out from Reno not trailed by twenty hounds (obscure song reference, don't sweat it) on Wednesday and stopped at Cabela's before heading up to Donner Pass. They sure have sold out of a lot of interesting hardware, and the *cases* of ammo waiting to be sold are all gone, with signs telling all that they're limited to 10 boxes (20 to 50 rounds a box) at checkout. The only magazines greater than 10 rounds on the rack were for guns I'd never heard of.

I looked, and they still don't have any of those handguns with magic biometric sensors desired by those looking for the perfect handgun, one that won't actually fire. Maybe next Xmas.

Russ Steele

Obama, the greatest gun and ammo salesman ever! This may turnout to be his only real legacy!


Paul, I think you're still unclear on the concept about how any shooting would theoretically start. There will be no TPP Brigade advance on Beale AFB to commandeer a U2 or a drone. No attempt to overthrow anybody.

Sorry if this is too repetitive, but back in the last big riots in LA, when law and order broke down, homeowners in Sycamore Canyon and other areas blocked off their streets and brought out all sorts of amazing weaponry to insure outsides didn't get in. My favorite quote from one conflicted progressive was something like 'I always thought when the revolution came I'd be on the other side'. I've no doubt the locals expect they'll have to do this, and some of those suspect some in authority will decide the Constitution is suspended until everything settles down and begin to pacify the area, sweeping areas clean.

Does anyone remember H. Ross Parrot (or at least the real guy the Sesame St. character was patterned after) saying that you have to shut your car off to fix it, and he should be elected President so he can suspend the Constitution and fix the country? And he actually got a lot of loonies agreeing?

The militia types are not scary; don't bother them, they won't bother you. Just don't say what you really think about both kinds of music... you know, Country *and* Western. Puts em on edge.

Douglas Keachie

" If they were ordered by Obama to fire at Americans citizens I know every one of them would turn and shoot the one that gave the order. "

So we don't need to defend ourselves from a government with armed forces made up by ourselves? How about that! You've just made the case against local militias.

The way to prevent or at least reduce a good deal of the gun violence, is to make sure there are strong penalties, financial, for anyone who is the registered owner of a gun, which gets loose of their possession, and it subsequently used to commit a crime. This could include a CCW person who gets blackjacked from behind and then shot with their own weapon. That way, people would be much more respectful and thoughtful about such purchases, and the responsibilities that go with them. A gun just is NOT a protective Starship shield, that means you will be safe under all conditions, and you have to understand, that letting a gun loose into the underworld, is almost as bad as pulling the trigger yourself. We no longer excuse drunk drivers, it's time to stop excusing those who let their guns ripped off, or who sell to those who shouldn't have them, or even allow said persons such usage. Arabs signing up for steering only flight schools are being discouraged....

Douglas Keachie

GregL, the Syrians had full scale weapons and massive clips, otherwise they would all be dead by now.


Keach, more silliness from you, no surprise. You're great at solving the world's problems in the same way Hunter S. Thompson filled those column-inches, off the top of one's head. At least Hunter was always amusing and had something worthwhile to say.

The way to reduce crime is to catch criminals and put them away. The way to keep the severely mentally ill away from guns is to not punish MD's who commit them, and for their families to keep their guns firmly out of their hands. That includes those locally, including an officer of the law, who knew their kin was off their rocker and heavily armed before they shot up Nevada County. The laws regarding negligence are well formed and up to the job.

Regarding lawbreaking, there's fresh meat in the grinder about a solicitation of bribery that implicates Harry Reid. Could be interesting.

George Rebane

We have yet to include the new and improved extra-curricular activities of Homeland Security and FEMA (like in FEMA Corps) in these discussions.

Douglas Keachie

My writings are intended to make sure gun owners don't allow their charges to go "Feral." http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/12/refined-version-keeping-guns-away-from.html

Greg, current gun laws aren't working so well, so say 30 dead people a day, day in and day out, according to nation crime stats by FBI.

Steve Enos

Number of gun deaths each year in the U.S.?

How about breaking that number out a bit? How many of the death by gun incidents are suicides that are counted in the total number of deaths per year that most are using in the gun "debate"?

Account Deleted

re Doug at 1:01 - I said 'I can't speak for the entire military' - my point was that the entire military would be conflicted and not of one mind about whom to obey. I knew some one would bring up the student riots. That was mostly the proto-OWS and anarchy crowd. I was referring to the good soldiers in the military now who have taken an oath to defend the Constitution. They're not going to shoot the citizens who are on their side.
Really, Doug, this is too easy. "it's time to stop excusing those who let their guns ripped off, or who sell to those who shouldn't have them, or even allow said persons such usage". You mean like Obama selling guns to drug lords and trying to cover it up? So what you just spouted off about only applies to the conservatives?
I have no problem trying to stop anyone from stealing anything from me, Doug. When do I get to shoot fleeing thieves in the back?


Sorry, Keach, but if you take out drug/gang violence, especially in areas that have the most onerous gun laws, those numbers go way down. In fact, you're generally safer in Utah than Canada and Australia, which have about the same murder rates despite being awash in guns, including real honest-to-Zarquon machine guns and virtually no restrictions. Vermont, too, and in Ben and Jerry country, you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

So, what gun laws do they need, and why aren't crazies choosing Salt Lake City or Montpelier to shoot up innocents?

Michael Anderson

I loved Steve Frisch's comment about the hippies and the pensioners. What he said is pretty much true.

Thing is, after Kent State, all the hippies I know are armed to the teeth and have huge ammo dumps, just like the rest of the crazies in this tragically broken country.

But I'll go back to my main contention. I think all of these idiots are just wasting their money. When push comes to shove they will watch the Niner game instead, and no lead will fly.

Not only are we are tragically broken country, we are a spoiled and soft country, a bunch of fructose-corn-syrup-laden couch potatoes whose greatest challenge is having too many remote controls.

I don't want to deny anyone here their wet dreams of an armed revolution, but that's all they are: sad little wet dreams from a diminishing Mister Peter whose ability to stand at attention diminishes with each day's passing (I blame the phthalates/estrogen).

Russ Steele

Some more message manegment

Taking action is simple, just follow these 3 Steps:

Step 1: Enter your personal contact information below, this information will be added to the letter and is required to reach each of the appropriate representatives in your area. This information is not stored by Ruger, nor is it used for any other purposes than this legislative action.

Step 2: Press "Submit" and we will prepare the letter below, in your name to the President, Vice-President, your Senators, Representative, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, State-Level Elected Officials and State Attorney General.

Step 3: Review your letter one last time, add in your first name and press "Submit"! You have just taken strong action in protecting your rights.

Douglas Keachie

Steve Enos, the number is already broken out, no suicides in there and it is actually on the low side, the really numbers are higher, but I wanted a "no arguement" number.


Greg, Utah, about 70% of it, is a rather unique culture, with church sponsored socialism or social safety net for the bottom part of the population. Maybe the highly restrictive alcohol policies have some effect?

"The right to KEEP and bear arms." Way too many Americans have disobeyed the first part of this, the KEEPING part, and that's what I aim to rectify. If you told George Washington that you wanted to sell your gun to some nutcase so you could make a quick buck, or that you loaned your arms to crazy aunt Hattie, he'd slap you silly.

bill tozer

Does this mean the price of guns will go up? Darn inflation and that supply and demand stuff. If they take my guns, guess I will have to dust off the old bazooka. Good for home defense, but leaves a rather nasty mess in the entry.

Account Deleted

for Doug at 10:33 - How about if you told George W there would be a left wing Pres that secretly sold guns to drug lords and covered it up? Please give us the stats on law abiding gun owners who 'loan' their guns to crazies.
The thing about Utah that Doug 'forgot' to mention is that safety net also requires the folks that receive help to get off their arse and get to work. Might be a good idea here, too. Highly restrictive alcohol policies? Every time I'm around a liquor store in Utah I see shopping carts stacked high with booze going out to the cars. They just learn to stock up and have plenty on hand. You don't see a lot of bums in Utah sitting around the alleys sipping out of paper bags because: the weather and - the social safety net kinda helps them go to another state, like California.

Paul Emery

Scott 10:33

"How about if you told George W there would be a left wing Pres that secretly sold guns to drug lords and covered it up?"

Are you referring top Iran Contra?


I remember going out to dinner behind the Zion Curtain... the waitress and the restaurant couldn't serve booze, but there was a "private club" set up in the corner of the main room where you could buy a drink and take it back to your table. You could also bring your own bottle of *anything* from home and pour it yourself.

Drinking in Utah isn't a problem, and, despite even Freshmen at the University of Utah being able to carry concealed weapons, gun violence isn't a problem. Don't expect Keachie to stay on the subject.

Keach ignored Vermont, and didn't write a thing to justify saddling either Vermont or Utah with onerous legislation on lawful gun owners. Then there's New Hampshire, with the lowest murder rate in the US (1.4/100,000) and the lowest murder with guns rate (0.4/100,000). No rifle or handgun registration, legal machine guns, the only difference with utah I can see is that NH's CCW is a "may issue", not "shall issue" process.

So, whose gun laws should prevail on all by Federal law? Vermont, Utah, and New Hampshire's, or Illinois and California's? Or should the Feds back off and let the 2nd and 10th Amendments reign?

Russ, outside of our Congresscritter, none of them care a rat's ass what you want regarding gun legislation. Demanding a serious investigation into the new Harry Reid bribery allegations might be more useful for the Federal offices... after all, the seriousness of the charges is primary.

Michael, feel better? A truly classic bullying, mandersonation rant that, intentionally or unintentionally, misses the points of the posters being ridiculed.


Paul, Iran/Contra wasn't pushed by Reagan or his top staff and by all accounts, he blanched when he heard about it. There's no evidence RR knew about it or orchestrated a coverup; Reagan had a loose management style that gave his people plenty of leeway. That's not always a good thing.

Fast and Furious *was* known at the top levels, was arguably instituted by the top levels, and was allowed to continue by the top levels who did keep it quiet.

Shame on you for inferring a moral equivalence between the two, especially since the Fast and Furious actually provided arms to bloodthirsty drug lords across our border with at least one US Border Control agent murdered with one of them.

Paul Emery

Moral equivalence? You bet and then some.
Why didn't Reagan know about it? Are you saying that Senior Bush as VP also didn't know? Was it a secret effort operating within the protection of the US Government? What was the role of the CIA in the affair? Isn't the President responsible for the actions of the CIA? Are you denying that guns for drugs during Iran Contra ever existed. By the way, I don't deny Slick Willy's part in this sordid affair.

Here's Ron Paul's take

"Drug trafficking is "a gold mine for people who want to raise money in the underground government in order to finance projects that they can't get legitimately. It is very clear that the CIA has been very much involved with drug dealings," Paul said. "The CIA was very much involved in the Iran-Contra scandals. I'm not making up the stories; we saw it on television. They were hauling down weapons and drugs back. And the CIA and government officials were closing their eyes, fighting a war that was technically illegal."



George Rebane

Administrivia - I just purged a bunch of recent ad hominem mudballs from this comment stream. No doubt there are some left. I'll try something different next. You guys are a lot of fun.


Paul, I can imagine many knowing about Iran Contra, but no evidence was ever developed, and that's quite a bit different than US Federal gun laws known to be circumvented to insure illegal gun transactions being allowed. Even gun stores were questioning the approvals they were getting.

Then there's the *continuing* coverup... what did Holder know, and when did he stop knowing it? The evidence so far is 1) quite a lot. From the wiki,
"On Thursday, June 28, 2012, Holder became the first sitting member of the Cabinet of the United States to be held in criminal contempt of Congress by the House of Representatives for refusing to disclose internal Justice Department documents in response to a subpoena. The vote was 255-67 in favor, with 17 Democrats voting yes and a large number of Democrats walking off the floor in protest and refusing to vote. A civil contempt measure was also voted on and passed, 258-95"

Re the mudballs, thanks, George.

Russ Steele


I only sent a letter to my Congressman. Since you did not use the process, you missed entering a zip code to bring up the appropriate congressional address. Follow the steps and you shall succeed.


Russ, I have no need to use Ruger for that particular service, and have not bothered. Letting other people, or companies, write my notes to elected representatives is not my style. If you want to write your congresscritter, write them.

Feel free to crib from the Ruger letter if you like it.

Douglas Keachie

Greg's ignorance of anthro, and cultural differences, is astonishing. There is nothing about the geographic boundaries of the respective states that causes lower homicide rates, nor do the laws on the books of the respective states. Hint, it has to do with the ethos of the folks who live there, and, applying the laws from there, to the rest of the USA would not change the behavior of the folks in the rest of the USA one damn bit. GregLogic fails when outside of physics and math.

Douglas Keachie

The temps in Utah are not conducive to sticking around for the winters, and a culture that encourages having six month stockpiles of food is rather different than the rest of the USA.

Douglas Keachie

~ bill tozer | 13 January 2013 at 07:37 AM~

There is something left of the entry?

Joe Koyote

RE: Reagan and Iran/Contra
When I was in graduate school I did a large (75 page) research paper on the subject of what did Reagan know and how did that effect press releases and media coverage from a public relations standpoint. In summary, he knew about it from day one or he had Alzheimers and didn't remember. As journalists (something that no longer exists) began to unravel the story and disclosures from the hearings became public information, Reagan tweeked his story in damage control efforts. The story kept changing to address the current threat. Ollie North and others took the hit to protect Reagan. The End

Paul Emery


Specifically , are you telling me that in your view Reagan and Bush did not know about the Iran Contra affair?

And what about the Bowlen Amendment?

bill tozer

Douglas Keachie, 1:40pm. You are quite astute this fine day. Indeed I would have been better served in communication if I had changed the word "in" to "of". Makes a rather nasty mess of the entry. Excellent point.

Ben Emery

Don't expect republican apologists to use rational thought when it comes to their war criminal hero Ronald Reagan and his entire administrations. Don't get me wrong I think the Clinton, Bush, and now the Obama administrations have all broken international war and humanitarian laws. Every administration since Truman with the exception of the Carter administration has broken used the US military illegally according to our own Constitution and much of the international laws.

The Boland amendment first passage was in 1982, which barred the use of funds from the federal government for overthrowing the government of Nicaragua or instigating conflicts between Nicaragua and Honduras. Reagan sold arms to our sworn enemy (Iran) while supplying arms and intelligence to Saddam Hussein, made deals with terrorists, laundered money through drug lords, and then violated the US Constitution and the Boland amendment by covertly funding a brutal mercenary that represented everything the US was supposed to stand for.

My mom was an adult ESL teacher at the time and she had a huge influx of students from those two nations telling the stories of missing persons, CIA death squads, and much much more.

George Rebane

DougK 133pm - Am not sure anyone (especially Greg) has argued that state boundaries are causal of anything. But such boundaries do delimit where people holding certain systems of belief congregate, make their laws, and live according to those laws and beliefs. Their aggregate behavior reflects that, and is then the causal influence on the resulting statistics.

And regarding the limits of logic(s) derived from physics and math - there are none. To the extent that any field in the last fifty years has sought to extend the domain of human knowledge, they have all had to integrate and borrow from the toolsets of physics and math (aka the systems sciences). This has been pretty much a one-way road that has now turned into a broad and very busy one-way multi-lane super highway. Algorizing EVERYTHING in order to make it computable has become de rigueur.

Steve Frisch

Hey Michael Anderson, you know the other thing I think is hilarious? While our local 'preppers' (including apparently some here) are preparing for the end of the [neighborhood][city][county][state][nation][civilization][world][solar system][galaxy][universe], including: earthquake, flood, comet, asteroid, Russian paratroopers, 'nucular' accident, flood, famine, wildfire, electromagnetic pulse, sun spots, ZOG, sharia law, terrorist attack, economic collapse, societal collapse, pandemics, the zombie apocalypse, geomagnetic reversal, the end of global fertility due to gay marriage, peak oil, and the return of the Messiah, they are going to have to store a lot of stuff. ("You said flood twice" "I like flood"). That means we will be prepared for climate change; the only doomsday scenario they insist is impossible!

Paul Emery

Ben Emery | 13 January 2013 at 02:20 PM

Yeah, that's pretty disappointing Ben that we can't get a good conversation going about the abuse of Presidential power since any Pubber President seems to get a free pass from most of this crowd. What's ironic is that most subscribers here, with the exception of the Toddster do not claim to be Repub diehards.

By the way I'll respond for George on the abuse of power in Iran Contra, correct me if necessary George, but it was all OK because we we were fighting the Commies, ditto for Iran 1953, Chile, Grenada,,, or Islamic Terrorists-Afganistan, Iraq....

I'm the first to admit I have Dem stains on my record but I'm trying to be free of institutional addiction and I appreciate opinions from others that strive to attain independence of partisan thought.

George Rebane

For the record - I have spoken to Republican groups (and Republican politicians) numerous times. None of what I have had to say has made them feel better about the GOP. The pages of RR are a testament to this.

Both (all) political parties are political first, last, and always. Their common denominator above all is to perpetuate their power; everything else, as we have seen, is negotiable. While I'm still enough of an idealist to say, 'My country, right or wrong,...', I have never been able to unequivocally say 'My party, right or wrong,... .' I like to think that most RR commenters feel the same way.

Paul Emery

So then George why the free pass to Reagan on Iran Contra and Bush on Iraq and the freak out over 'fast and furious' and Benghazi when they come from the same ilk.

Ben Emery

To further this conversation about the topic of "gun control". We are not talking about gun control we are talking about mass shootings and lunatics having access to guns. The left makes the mistake of stopping at the gun itself. Where do they get this idea? The Democratic Party and so called "left" pundits. This allows for the discussion to be about what those who control the levers of power want because it will cause the debate to degrade to a visceral level of two false equivalencies. The right then talks about the government taking guns away from people. Where do they get this idea? The Republican Party and "right" pundits. All of this is to keep the people divided against each other so we don't unite against those who flushing our nation down the toilet. It has been the same since the beginning of time, divide et impera.

The mass shootings are happening due to the fear or distrust pumped into society by the media, the policies that promote inequality, lack of affordable access to mental health care, and a deep sense that the duopoly that pretends to be our representatives don't care about the interests of average Americans.

Ben Emery

About my country right or wrong contradicts your statement about your party right or wrong. Our government, which is the representation of our country is controlled by the two largest institutions in the nation called the Republican Party and Democratic Party. These two parties are in turn are controlled by big business which has no loyalty to our country or the interests of its people. The exodus of big business since the Free Trade era began is proof of this lack of loyalty. I love our country for so many reasons but have just as many reasons to be embarrassed and ashamed.

Russ Steele


You wrote: “That means we will be prepared for climate change; the only doomsday scenario they insist is impossible!”

Climate change has two sides, one positive (warm) and one negative (cold). Since there has been no global warming for the past 17 years ( http://www.c3headlines.com/2013/01/satellites-confirm-atmospheric-global-cooling-reigns-not-the-ipccs-predicted-co2-global-warming.html) and the trend is toward cooling. We are experiencing record low sunspots with solar scientist predicting no spots by 2020. So, the real doomsday scenario is global cooling. Global cooling will shorten growing seasons pushing corn and wheat production out historical growing regions, causing a gap in production. The last time the sunspots disappeared, millions died from starvation, following wide spread crop failures. According to the historical solar cycles we are due for some super cold winters, early falls and late springs for the next 20-30 years. We have a fews years of grace, until the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation turns cold in 3-5 years. Then keep your snuggles handy, and learn to like root vegetables.

Brad Croul

Neither side can claim the high ground. Iran/Contra had to have been known about by the administration - and approved; just as Fast and Furious was. It is the only sensible way to look at it. If Reagan, or his wing men, didn’t know about it; that administration must have had their collective heads permanently positioned as Third Eye Rectoscopes.


Also, it’s kind of a hoot that the paranoid fantasies of the right seem to be about the same as the paranoid fantasies of the left.

The right sees jack-booted, big-government thugs roaming the streets with armored humvees, and sees themselves as “freedom fighters”, rising up to protect the country (and world) from the latest Commie takeover attempt- Go Wolverines! (been watching “Red Dawn” re-runs).

The Left sees “The Man” with his boot on the pepper-sprayed face of the oppressed 99%, necessitating Earth First monkey wrenching, rioting in the streets and bank burning (and of course, guns and ammo stockpiling).

I have heard about all the ammo sold at gun shows, apparently purchased by God fearing Americans to protect themselves from a Commie coup as a result of a rogue US government (and, of course, also to the Mexican drug lords to be fed to their hungry, Fast and Furious, AK-47s).

I have also heard about the billions and billions (use Carl Sagan accent here) of bullets recently purchased by all manner of government agencies.

So, were the government purchases of ammo a response to all the wannabe minutemen militia ammo purchases, or visa versa?

Exit Question: Will the paranoia affecting the rightwing psyche subside as soon as a Republican POTUS is installed, or will the guns and ammo hoarding continue?

Paul Emery

Well spoken Brad

Joe Koyote

If there is a repub POTUS I think sales will go up even more. For one, every teacher will have to be armed, as well as every popcorn seller at theaters, not to mention all patriots who want to protect themselves from the islamic fascist terrorist cells, the undocumented alien socialist rebels from South America, leftover Russian commies, the North Koreans, and of course the most dangerous of all, those American citizens and patriots who happen to disagree with the Wall Street tycoons' vision of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Douglas Keachie

While the geographical boundaries may delineate certain subcultures in America, the laws they pass within those boundaries work for those subculture, within those boundaries. Establishing identical laws elsewhere will not result in identical crime stat outcomes. That is where GregLogic fails. Do you really want to walk the streets of Oakland, LA and SF, in certain areas, if all can CCW at will?

BTW, the "why existence is possible at all" question is not answered by any of the physical sciences.

Steve Frisch

J'accuse--its a myth Russ. Simple confirmation bias on your part.

Readers can first watch this little video:


Then read the background:


Then look at this graph:


But that is OK--I am sure the fruits, nuts, dried vegetables, 60 & 100 watt incandescent lightbulbs and horde of ammo you have will save you!

Russ Steele


OK, if that is how you want to play the game. Did you you actually look at the satellite data? Did not think so. Oh, well it would not make any difference, but the other readers will and that is what counts. Well, maybe not your friends in the AGW religious cult who think that real world data is just a myth.

Russ Steele

Union has a poll: Would you support allowing teachers to be armed in Nevada County schools?

67 Yes.

29 No.

Russ Steele


Ooops: New paper finds Southern Oceans are losing heat

A paper published today in Geophysical Research Letters finds from observations that the Southern Oceans show an annual net heat loss of -10 Wm-2. The paper is the first to study annual heat flux between the atmosphere and the Southern Oceans, a "key component of the global climate system: insulating the Antarctic polar region from the subtropics, transferring climate signals throughout the world's oceans and forming the southern component of the global overturning circulation." The finding contradicts warmist claims that the oceans are gaining 'missing heat' due to an increase in greenhouse gases.

Steve Frisch

Ooops..link above by Posted by: Russ Steele | 13 January 2013 at 04:40 PM is broken

Here is one that works: http://www.c3headlines.com

I note, ocean temps not included in Russ's "proof".....that's a pretty big deal.

Steve Frisch

Wonder how that poll would have come out if the poll had asked, "Shall Nevada County place one trained armed guard per every 250 students in every Nevada County School at a cost of $98.00 per person in the County per year?"

(23,147 school age children and young adults divided by 250 X approximately $100,000 per guard for salary, benefits, training, insurance and equipment, based on NRA estimate, dived by 98,000 residents = approximately $98.00 per person per year in new taxes)

Want to bet it would be 60-40 the other way?

George Rebane

To repeat myself, I make no claim to be ‘objective’ in any absolute sense, only within the reference frame of MY reality. I know other commenters here claim to speak from a more cosmological reference frame to which they are privy, but I have my limits.

PaulE 423pm – I give Reagan a freer pass because he indeed was (according to my lights) fighting the spread of communism in central America. That to me is more salutary than surreptitiously passing guns to Mexican thugs in the attempt to frame America’s gun shops for supplying weapons to Mexican cartels. I picked my poison, you pick yours.

BenE 437pm – there is nothing contradictory about my differentiating between the latitude I give my country for correcting itself, to the latitude that I might give a political party. The government (under any party) is NOT the country, but then, I repeat myself.

BradC 454pm – the maintenance of an armed populace will continue regardless of which party occupies the White House. You liberals have a hard time focusing on the elements of debate. The pro-2nd Amendment crows views government, especially big government, with a gimlet eye no matter who is in charge. The watchword, as counseled by our Founders, is to keep our eyes on whoever is in power.

JoeK 513pm – a truly worthless comment.

DougK 527pm – ignorant statements like this only feed Greg’s (excessive) fury with you. As found several times in these pages, it was the late John Wheeler of Princeton who took as his summa project the question of ‘Why Existence?’. This is a deeper question that “why existence is possible at all” which the sciences have done an excellent job of answering in the standard course of research. In my meanderings through the philosophical terrain, the first (only?) philosophical tradition that has satisfactorily answered that question is Vedanta in their ‘Srimad Bhagavatam’ scripture – we are in the ‘game of God’. Christianity and Judaism speak of a lonely God, and then quickly go on to deny that God had any “need” for His creation, thereby returning us to our original fog. Many physicists today are pursuing Wheeler’s quest in its most teleological focus. The artsy fartsy fields have had their day, and now they sound oh so yesterday when even attempting to cover this part of the shoreline of man’s knowledge.

StevenF 634pm – that is a red herring argument. The cost of armed staff in schools, whether through arming existing staff and/or using community volunteers would not be anywhere near the numbers that the Left foists in this part of the debate.

Steve Frisch

Yeah well George, if we are going to arm staff in schools, I don't want community volunteers; they could be just as bat shit crazy as the people we are protecting children against---but did you not note? I used the figure that NRA Board member David Keene used on CNN late last week.

But I have another question....I have no children...why should I pay for anyone else's? Sounds like welfare for breeders to me.

George Rebane

SteveF 714pm - I think that your ascribing trained and qualified CCW permit volunteers "just as bat shit crazy as the people we are protecting children against" is a gratuitous retort and false criticism, and effectively brings our dialogue on this issue to a close.

But your "welfare for breeders" remark is even more revealing. Since we are putatively attempting to provide a safer learning environment for the next generation, and whatever reasonable approach we choose to do that will cost money, those monies become part and parcel of public education costs. If, as a non-breeder, you refuse those, would you not be able to list a whole passel of other currently ongoing schooling costs that you would similarly resist paying? I would think so. Perhaps that is a worthy notion to pursue that is totally independent of preventing school shootings. We conservetarians have long argued against paying for utterly ineffective and wasteful government spending. It now appears that we may have an ally in you.

Russ Steele

Oh No, Big time liberal caught lying: BILL CLINTON FIBS ABOUT GUN CONTROL

At a speech before the Conusmer Electronics Show in Las Vegas on January 9, Bill Clinton stated: “Half of all mass killings in the United States have occurred since the assault weapon ban expired in 2005, half in the history of the country.” But that statement is untrue, as Glenn Kessler of the Washngton Post demonstrates.

Asked by Kessler about his statement, Clinton’s spokesman declined to comment or to say where Clinton got his numbers. As Kessler, a professional fact-checker, says, “this always makes us suspicous.”

It seems clear that Clinton either made up his statistic or presented something he had heard without bothering to see whether it is true. In other words, he either lied outright or showed a reckless disregard for the truth.

Some things never change

Douglas Keachie

Well George, I'd love to hear your explanation of the difference between "Why existence?" and "Why is existence possible at all?"

Physics may be able to delineate what we think we know of existence, but that's about it.

As for arming the staff, kids are not stupid, and they will ferret out just who is armed, and target the weapon for theft. Kids are not stupid, the one who does the stealing will not even be enrolled in that particular school. Accidents happen in even the best planned burglaries and robberies. Deaths from guns at schools would be worse than the problems we have now. And we haven't even scratched the surface of two staff members who don't like one another very much.

Jobs will be created, making bullet proof vests for our children and the staff.

Paul Emery

You must be aware of the CIA profiteering of crack cocaine sales on the streets of this country to support the Contras. This led to the deaths of of untold US citizens. Of course they were largely poor blacks so perhaps they were considered fair game to sacrifice for fighting the commies in a foreign country.

"The CIA's inspector general later opened a second investigation looking into the matter and also determined that the agency was aware of the Contra involvement in drug trafficking, did nothing to stop it and in fact interceded with the Drug Enforcement Administration to block investigations -- and then misled Congress about it...."

"On October 31, 1996, the Washington Post ran a follow up story to the San Jose Mercury News series titled "CIA, Contras and Drugs: Questions on Links Linger." The story drew on court testimony in 1990 of Fabio Ernesto Carrasco, a pilot for a major Columbian drug smuggler named George Morales. As a witness in a drug trial, Carrasco testified that in 1984 and 1985, he piloted planes loaded with weapons for contras operating in Costa Rica. The weapons were offloaded, and then drugs stored in military bags were put on the planes which flew to the United States. "I participated in two [flights] which involved weapons and cocaine at the same time," he told the court.

Carrasco also testified that Morales provided "several million dollars" to Octaviano Cesar and Adolfo "Popo" Chamorro, two rebel leaders working with the head of the contras' southern front, Eden Pastora. The Washington Post reported that Chamorro said he had called his CIA control officer to ask if the contras could accept money and arms from Morales, who was at the time under indictment for cocaine smuggling. "They said [Morales] was fine," Chamorro told the Post."


Steve Frisch

I am quite happy to be paying my taxes for public education, thank you. I consider it both my duty and a patriotic investment in the future of the country I love. But if we are picking and choosing which taxes we pay I will opt out of 40% of defense.

Steve Frisch

Posted by: Paul Emery | 13 January 2013 at 07:51 PM

Another sad part of the story Paul references is that Gary Webb, the SJMN reporter who broke the "Dark Alliance" story in 1996, was hounded out of main stream media by critics due to CIA lies and committed suicide by shooting himself twice in the head (a nifty trick if you ask me) in 2004.

George Rebane

PaulE 751pm - Was not aware that anyone at CIA was indicted, let alone convicted, of any criminal wrongdoing.

Paul Emery

Oh yes, this from Ron Paul. I doubt if he would make this up.

"Texas Congressman Ron Paul has long lobbied against government restrictions on the drug use of American citizens, but in the past the outspoken presidential hopeful has linked the US with narcotics closer than one might imagine.

As early as 1988, Paul was preaching of a relationship between the Central Intelligence Agency and Contras in Nicaragua amid the Iran-Contra scandal that plagued the Reagan administration. That relationship, said Paul, was one built with an intricate drug trade.

According to the GOP frontrunner in the race to the White House, the CIA imported cocaine from the Contras into America and then supplied domestic drug dealers with their loot, a transaction that allowed the Agency to operate its illegal trade with its Latin American neighbors that would have been otherwise impossible to fund with legitimate money.

Instead, said Paul, the CIA used dirty money made by the Agency’s drug deals to help afford the cost of arming the Contras against Sandinistas."


Steve Frisch

I understand the CIA is regularly indicted for criminal activities.

George Rebane

PaulE 819pm - I guess Congressman Paul's allegation is all that's required to wrap up the case. And all those indictments, they probably all went to trial and were properly adjudicated.

Now I would not be at all surprised if the CIA played a little fast and loose in implementing what they believed the WH wanted in the arena of foreign policy. Just as I wouldn't be surprised at another President's Dept of Justice trying to frame American businesses along the way to rolling back some more 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens. Man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Paul Emery


There were plenty of indictments and convictions in Iran Contra but as you recall they were pardoned by Papa Bush when he left office.

Explaining those pardons, Bush said the "common denominator of their motivation -- whether their actions were right or wrong -- was patriotism."

Brings a tear to my eye.

All that from the former director of the CIA taking care of his own operators. What a joke. What would your reaction be if Obama pardoned anyone convicted for Fast and Furious?

George Rebane

PaulE 954pm - Excellent question Paul. I am just as pissed about Fast & Furious as any progressive is about Iran-Contra. I already consider FAF to be history with no indictments, convictions, or even pardons. The lamestream has already exonerated everyone.

Michael Anderson

I like this tack that Paul and Steve are taking. But then, I'm just a softie for long-time crimes being finally addressed, and the perps going to prison. FINALLY! At the very least, send Elliott Abrams to Gitmo. Git 'r dun.

Douglas Keachie

Shoe bombers vs mass shooters? What's the difference? Airplanes and buildings cost some corporation somewhere money?


Russ Steele

Obama the greatest gun saleman of all time:

Honest Americans Bought Enough Guns in November and December to Outfit the Entire Chinese and Indian Armies

The Obama Administration is the number one threat to the nation’s gun rights advocates.  In the four years since Barack Obama was first elected president in November 2008, an estimated 67 million firearms have been purchased in the United States. In November a record 2 million guns were sold in America.  This was followed up by another record in December.  2.7 million guns were sold in America in the last month of 2012.

And, I do not think they will be giving them up any time in the near future.

Russ Steele

Hey Steven, Check this out:

Annual Sea Surface Temperature (SST) Anomaly Update for 2012 | Bob Tisdale – Climate Observations

2012 Global sea surface temperature anomalies ranked 10th warmest, with the peak year continuing to be 1998. The Arctic Ocean sea surface temperature anomalies were the warmest seen in the 31 years of this dataset, which comes as no surprise. The existence of the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation in the North Atlantic and the exceptional Arctic sea ice loss in 2012 both contributed to this. At the other end of the globe, Southern Ocean sea surface temperature anomalies were near their lowest in 31 years, ranking 27th. Good thing the Southern Ocean covers more of the globe than the Arctic Ocean.

A bit of trivia: The sea surface temperature anomalies for Pacific Ocean—the largest ocean basin on the planet—have not warmed in 19 years.

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