Gun Control 2013 (updated 13jan13)

George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown massacre has been blown into a celebrated “crisis” for the nation’s gun ban contingent.  And President Obama has made certain that this crisis will also not go to waste in his overarching program that is fundamentally transforming America.  He gave VP Joe Biden the job of fashioning the next set of regulations that will further criminalize law abiding citizens who own and bear guns.  Remarkably (or not), Biden will present his panel's rapidly reached conclusions and resulting recommendations within the next few days.

The Second Amendment is one of the two or three major dividers in our ideologically polarized country.  And its public debate (mirrored in these pages) shines a bright light on the enormous differences that separate our self-declared progressives from those who consider themselves to be classic liberals and libertarians – more compactly labeled our Left and Right.

The major element of debate about the extent of public ownership of guns is their beneficial functions, if any, in a free, open, and liberal society that intends to remain so.  These functions are summarized in gun uses for 1) self-defense, 2) sport (including hunting), and the maintenance of 3) par force (q.v.) against a government turned rogue.

The following factors enter the debate as propositions and even axioms (self-evident truths).  This list is arbitrarily ordered and no doubt incomplete.

1.    Self-defense is not a salutary function of a private citizen.  Maintaining the safety of a citizen in his person is the role of the state through its local constabularies.  (Private individuals defending themselves are “practicing vigilantism” and “taking the law into their own hands”.)
2.    Sporting uses of firearms builds and reinforces the darker aspects of human character, and does not benefit the maintenance of an amiable society.
3.    The sport killing of animals is a barbaric throwback that needs to be eliminated from civilized society.
4.    The Bastiat Triangle of rights is not required to maintain liberal systems of governance.  It is a throwback to an age that no longer exists or informs us.
5.    The Bastiat Triangle is fundamental to any and every constituting formalism that unites a free people in an enduring manner.  Our Founders embedded these rights in our Constitution.
6.    It is the role of the federal government to interpret the Second Amendment and to enforce its uniform interpretation across the land.
7.    All governments not actively kept in check by their governed tend toward autocracy (usually through democratically initiated and subsequently forced redistribution of wealth, dispersing favored entitlements, and debasing the currency).
8.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue without limit to the highest levels of government because it has the broadest purview of social needs and can assemble the qualified elites to exercise them for the greatest good.
9.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue within limits to the lowest levels of government because these have the most accurate and immediate purview of local social needs, and can execute them with minimum impact on individual liberties.
10.    The main role of liberal and broad ownership of weapons in a free society is to enable citizens to band together as the check of last resort against a rogue government.  Government should always be at the mercy of its citizens, deporting itself accordingly by enabling its own renewal and, if necessary, replacement through established legal and facile means.  Government’s main role is to maintain the sovereignty of the nation (a nation and its government are not the same).
11.     Government is the final and proper repository of its citizens’ values, mores, and social goals.  Opposition to government, especially one based on its citizens’ use of force, is sedition, and should be dealt with swiftly and severely for the greater good of society.  To maintain the peace, government is justified to use all means necessary (especially as it pertains to gun ownership) to prevent its restraint or its replacement by its citizenry.
12.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be unbridled, practiced nationally, and applied over the broadest bases to let the people decide all levels of public policy and public norms.  The collective always makes the wisest decisions, especially as these affect the permitted individual behaviors in a just society.  The current will of the people should not be inhibited by dated and outmoded maxims.
13.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be bridled, practiced locally (in a distributed manner; see also subsidiarity), and applied in the large through republican mechanisms founded on an established, broadly understood, amendable, and durable basis (e.g. the Constitution) for the nation’s laws.  Collective will is both volatile and unreliable, and therefore should be invoked judiciously and exercised prudently in order to sustainably provide for the broadest liberties of a free people.

So now we have an orchestrated public policy circus going on in Washington through a panel headed arguably by the administration’s chief political clown.  And after the charade of meeting with parties "expressing all viewpoints", the panel will rush out its politically polished recommendations that will have no bearing on preventing the kind of events that gave rise to this latest rush to judgment.  However, it will provide a framework for gun ban acolytes nationwide to ratchet down another notch or two the people’s right to own and bear arms.

The lamestream will play its compliant role and trumpet the imagined ‘benefits’ of the new provisions while lamenting that more was not done to roll back the nation’s ‘gun culture’.  It will do this by sticking a mike in the faces of the bereaved loved ones and our progressive pundits whose intellectual peaks will again be revealed by arguments such as - ‘But what if it were your child who got shot; wouldn’t you do everything possible to prevent that from happening again?’  Their elicited correct answer is one that appeals to simple minds who have little ability to see that their concern is not even being addressed, and in the larger sense that their wellbeing is jeopardized by a growing Leviathan.

A saner society would make its decisions based on realities and facts relating aggregate probabilities and likelihoods, not on emotional pyrotechnics based on low probability anecdotal happenings.  But this is not to be, for in the final argument the socialist sees no utility in the widespread ownership of weapons.  In fact, to them that ownership is only a liability that obstructs all intents and means to achieve a centrally managed society that can ultimately be populated by enlightened and correctly behaving altruists whom Marx labeled “the communist man”.  And this part of the debate, dear reader, is something that will scarcely see the light of day in this ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.  The focus will remain fixed on the proper needs of deer and duck hunting.

[13jan13 update]  In my sixty years of observing our country’s Presidents, never have I seen the likes of Barak Hussein Obama.  If America survives, I believe history will remember him as the nation’s greatest divider.   We now have Americans starting to build redoubt communities where the like-minded will gather to practice their life styles and be in a place to defend their way of life if/when the time of troubles comes to this land.  The latter looks more and more likely as Obama enlarges his imperial presidency.

The Citadel is the name of one (the first?) of these redoubt communities that is now taking applications for residents of a fortress like city to be built in western Idaho.  More here.

Also heard on the grapevine – Obama’s hard left is beginning to have second thoughts about his promoting a big ratchet on the road to an international gun ban.  The response to the emotional nonsense coming out of Washington after Newtown is without precedence.  Tens of millions of guns and accessories (e.g. large cap magazines) have been sold, ammunition is gone from gun shop shelves, and waiting lists are long for the AR type long guns.  Prices have gone through the roof.

This coming Saturday 19 January 2013 there will be nationwide demonstrations in support of the Second Amendment at local gun stores and shooting ranges.  As a lifelong NRA member, shooting enthusiast, and promoter of an armed citizenry, I intend to throw in my ‘stubborn ounces’ in opposition to the latest managed hysteria to disarm America.

You say the little efforts that I make
will do no good; they never will prevail
to tip the hovering scale
where justice hangs in balance.

I don’t think I ever thought they would.
But I am prejudiced beyond debate
in favor of my right to choose which side
shall feel the stubborn ounces of my weight.
(Bonaro Overstreet)

Comments

[Ben Emery]

Paul,
Thousands of innocent people were murdered by the orders of the Reagan administration by illegal arms trade to our enemy Iran to replenish weapons we gave the puppet Shah after we overthrew democratically elected Mohammad Mossadeq because he had the nerve to kick out a foreign oil company. At the same time we took Saddam Hussein and Iraq of nation terror list and gave them weapons and intelligence to fight Iran. Saddam during the Reagan administration used those weapons to gas the Kurds. Reagan, Bush, and republicans seem to be ok with it in the 80's but were outraged about it in 2003. Reagan then laundered the illegal arms money through drug lords that were given the green light in exporting their products to the streets of the US. Reagan administration then denied congress and funded, armed, and trained mercenary death squads that killed tens of thousands of innocent people.

But George is upset about a George W Bush program that the Obama administration inherited that put more guns out there, kind of ironic if you ask me. The idea of fast and furious pisses me off as well when the best way to combat drug war crime is to legalize drugs not pump more guns into the situation. But then again I thought more people with more guns meant we would all be safer?

ps I won't even get into Usama bin Laden and how we trained, funded, and armed him along with what eventually became the Taliban during the Reagan years as well.

[George Rebane]

In further defining the lines that separate us, I note that my 932pm was too hot to handle re the difference between FAF and our backing of foreign governments perceived to be in our national self-interest.

On these pages we have not explicitly covered the how to structure the utility of a foreign policy, let alone how to implement one - we'll do that soon. Our backing international actors of dubious character goes back to the 19th century (e.g. America backed France's Napoleon). I'm not exactly sure what gives rise to the steady drumbeat that everything bad today was Bush2's fault (e.g. BenE's 839am); perhaps a limited reading of history that has been revised since Great Society days.

[Jesus Betterman]

My reading of BenE8:39 put far more blame on Reagan than Bush2, but the notion that libs blame Bush2 for everything, ties in perfectly as projection of the stance that Obama is to blame for everything, a view so near and dear to the overarmed and no targets to shoot at right. The right falls just short of an outright call for assassination, and their lesser endowed members will no doubt miss the distinction, and consider any such attempt to be patriotic, just as Iran Contra has been portrayed here.

[Russ Steele]

Ben@08:39AM

According to ABC News: In actuality, the Fast and Furious program was started in October 2009, nine months into the Obama presidency.

[Ben Emery]

Jesus and all others,

Here is the deal, I don't think Ronald Reagan was a bad person, as I don't think Barack Obama is a bad person either but they are faces of a much bigger machine that is disguised as a representative government. Representation of who is the question? This is what I oppose not conservative/ libertarian vs. liberal/ progressive. Our government doesn’t represent either of these ideologies because it mirrors the leadership of both the corrupt Democratic and Republican parties. Both party leaderships represent the interest of a few thousand people who invest in their parties and the policies they push. The Democrats were the party of labor and the poor for 40 years and it was during this time when we saw real progress in the ideals that were laid out in the Declaration of Independence. The cold war was Pandora box that enriched the wrong type of people who would be considered sociopaths and those sociopaths do not believe in self-governance but rather a pseudo aristocracy through corporate personhood and accumulated wealth. There is a parallel line between human rights for corporations and the absolute corruption of our federal and state governments. As we move further and further into the hostage situation of large transnational corporations threatening to destroy the economy if they don’t get their way we experience less and less representation in our capitals, which has created a corporatist or fascist state.

I do believe the Bush/ Cheney families fit into the sociopath category.

[George Rebane]

JesusB 942am - Jesus, you're back as promised; Lord be praised.

Actually, and this may really be hard for progressives to digest, everyone on the Right firmly believes that the only thing worse than Obama serving out his term, is if he were assassinated or harmed in any way (save politically) in the process.

[expanded] Assassination has never been nor should it be beneficial in our Republic. The last time a young, good-looking, albeit naive President was assassinated, we got Lyndon Baines Johnson, the Vietnam War, and the Great Society from which we may never recover. Today Joe Biden?!!

[Joe Koyote]

George: re; worthless comment -- satire seems to pass you by at times. My point was that there always seems to be some "enemy" foreign or domestic that we must arm ourselves against. A good sales strategy for the arms industry but not necessarily a healthy one for society. The "Obama is going to take our guns" sales strategy is another example of careless marketing that incites those borderline intellects.

The real question is who is buying all the guns? What is their level of education? What are their occupations? Where do they live? Are the buyers just red-neck militia types whose lack of intelligence make them vulnerable to emotional sales pitches? Are these the same people who buy salad shooters quick weight-loss devices? Most of the people that I know who own non-hunting guns don't possess the acumen to use them and are ultimately a danger to themselves, their families, and neighbors. Many have suggested that the gun buying binge during the last few years has been a racist reaction to a black President. How many Tim McVeigh's is the gun lobby creating with all this anyway?

[Walt]

How the tune changes.. What was I hearing before the re election? " NNaaaaa,,, "O" IS NOT going to try and take your guns away".... " Come on. "O" has actually relaxed gun laws." and other LIB lemming comments of the like.
Did you hear the demands from California Libs in D.C.? Calling for a law that will allow the government to confiscate assault weapons? And within the walls of the capital no less. So much for protecting the Constitution they swore to uphold.

Now "O" is claiming he can play the executive order game when it comes to banning guns.

Yup, even the few gun loving LIBS here took the bait, and believed the lies.
How does that old saying go?? Oh,, ya... " I told you so."

I'm glad I got my AR10 when I did. ( 4 in. targets @ 300 yards all day long.)

[Ben Emery]

Russ,
Technically you might be correct in the program name Fast & Furious (F & F) but the policy was started 2006. It was the regulated gun dealers that tipped off the federal government of the suspicious purchases, something it seems many on the right don't want to happen. I know we can twist that last comment into it was the regulations that caused the F & F program but I would argue the so called "war" on drugs is what is fueling all of this bullsh!t.

Instead of denying those purchases the ATF put it on steroids. So my natural instinct is to ask the question who profits most of such a horrible policy? Weapon and Private Prison industries who have massive lobbying power in DC, that's who. The other question would be if it wasn't people of color killing themselves would have the Project Gunrunner program been amplified into the disgusting and should be illegal F & F program?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57461204-10391695/a-primer-on-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/

What is "gunwalking"?

"Gunwalking" is law enforcement vernacular for the concept of allowing criminal suspects to "walk" off with guns, without police interdicting or tracking them. It's widely considered taboo, since "walked" guns may be used in violent crimes, including murders.

What is "Project Gunrunner"?

"Project Gunrunner" is a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) national initiative under the Justice Department started in 2006 aimed at reducing US-Mexico cross-border drug and gun trafficking and violence.

What is "Fast and Furious"?

"Fast and Furious" is the name ATF assigned to a group of Phoenix, Arizona-area gun trafficking cases under Project Gunrunner that began in fall of 2009. It's the largest of several known operations in which ATF employed gunwalking, involving more than 2,000 weapons, including hundreds of AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles and .50 caliber rifles. According to sources who worked directly on the case, the vast majority of guns were not tracked and Mexico's government was not fully informed of the case. The ATF Special Agent in Charge of the operation was Bill Newell.

What is "Wide Receiver"?

"Wide Receiver" is the name ATF assigned to a group of gun trafficking cases investigated out of the Tucson, Arizona office beginning in 2006. Like Fast and Furious, it was supervised by ATF Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell. Sources indicate it involved about 275 "walked" guns. According to sources who worked directly on the case, the vast majority of guns were not tracked and Mexico's government was not fully informed of the case. Apparently worried that the gunwalking tactics could be viewed as inappropriate, federal prosecutors in Arizona abandoned the case. Then, in fall of 2009, Justice Department officials decided to go ahead and prosecute the case.

How did Fast and Furious start?

A number of Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) gun dealers in the Phoenix area routinely contacted ATF when they noticed suspicious customers attempting purchases; for example, someone ordering large numbers of AK-47 variant rifles and other so-called "weapons of choice" used by the Mexican drug cartels, and paying with large sums of cash brought in a paper bag. But starting in fall 2009, instead of stopping the transactions or questioning the customers, ATF often encouraged select gun dealers to go ahead and complete suspicious sales. ATF further asked the gun dealers to continue to cooperate by selling to the suspicious customers repeatedly, and providing ATF with names and weapons' serial numbers. Several gun dealers expressed concerns to ATF: they worried if they cooperated in selling guns to suspected criminals, they would later be unfairly blamed or even prosecuted, and that some of the weapons might be used one day to murder federal agents.

[Gregory]

Life intruded and my son is home only for a short time. So many targets, so little time.

Keach 1:33PM
"Greg's ignorance of anthro, and cultural differences, is astonishing. There is nothing about the geographic boundaries of the respective states that causes lower homicide rates, nor do the laws on the books of the respective states."

Hint, Keach, I didn't make any such claim, especially regarding to geography; this is just more of your wild habit of listening to the voices in your head rather than reading my words. I did ask why the laws in low violence states should be superceded by new Federal mandates (in essence, imposing Illinois law on them) given they're already as safe as one could hope.

One might ask the follow on questions as to how much of the violence in the District of Columbia, NYC, Illinois, California and on down is due to the unintended side effects of criminalizing the possession of inanimate objects that many (including now the SCOTUS) think the people have a right to own and carry.

"Hint, it has to do with the ethos of the folks who live there, and, applying the laws from there, to the rest of the USA would not change the behavior of the folks in the rest of the USA one damn bit. GregLogic fails when outside of physics and math."

Wow, if applying Utah, New Hampshire, Vermont, Wyoming, Arizona, Alaska etc law "to the rest of the USA would not change the behavior of the folks in the rest of the USA one damn bit", then it might as well be tried. The bad guys everywhere already have guns, an experiment where more good guys have them and can defend themselves without fear of arrest might be useful.

[Ben Emery]

Walt,
What guns have you had confiscated by the federal government? None, so shut the hell up until your armory has been taken by force. The further we get from the latest shooting the more chance the NRA can buy off enough legislatures that no serious new laws will be put in place but enough to allow the D's to falsely claim to have done major reform and enough to allow the R's to feed their followers such as yourself to claim they are taking your guns.

[George Rebane]

BenE 1057am - your advice is again a bit short on wisdom. In America, after our "armory has been taken by force", we will have no voice whatsoever. And neither will people in Australia, Denmark, Italy, ... . As today in countless places like China, Cuba, Vietnam, Iran, Sudan, ... , unarmed people saying the wrong things just disappear.

Better to scream warnings beforehand than afterward to scream in pain.

[Gregory]

George, 7:00PM
" I give Reagan a freer pass because he indeed was (according to my lights) fighting the spread of communism in central America. That to me is more salutary than surreptitiously passing guns to Mexican thugs in the attempt to frame America’s gun shops for supplying weapons to Mexican cartels. I picked my poison, you pick yours."

Hoping this will kill a few birds with one stone... I take a slightly different view. Cold War Realpolitik machinations really can't be fairly dissected in a blog this long after the fact. Remember when Cuba led the Non-Aligned Nations in the UN? What delightful fictions we had.

No, I didn't think Iran-Contra was justified, but there was plenty of crap to go around. Taking it out of context and refusing to deal with current crimes unless everyone turns the Wayback Machine to the Reagan era and points fingers in the past first is no way to stop ongoing crimes here and now.

PaulE, I was giving money to Ron Paul in '88, even sat in his chair in Leary's back yard after listening to him speak, and watched a reporter (since figured out to be the Chronicle's Debra Saunders) interview him in the Leary's living room. Had more people been listening to Paul then, including you, we'd all be better off now.

No, if there isn't any real evidence to point to, I'm not going to join in a fingerpointing game. I don't do conspiracy theories or snipe hunts. I also didn't vote for Bush I because I didn't think it appropriate for a former head spook to head the Executive branch; too Putinesque for my tastes.

[Jesus Betterman]

Somebody's not hearing the screams of pain from Sandy Hook.

[Jesus Betterman]

Walt, at 300 yards, some fellow Right rifleman, looking at you, and seeing you armed, how would he know which side you were on?

George, there are more than enough death threats out there directed at Obama, from members of the right. Are you blind?

[George Rebane]

JesusB 1132am - Death threats from the Right? Evidence please, and 'who else would they be from?' won't count.

[Ken Jones]

Walt's claim that the Obama administration or CA libs will take away guns is no more than a specious argument. Walt, President Obama has not taken any guns and yes he did relax the gun laws. That is a fact. The discussion about guns, mass killings and what we as a nation can do is for now a discussion. There is no way that the + 275 million guns in American hands will be confiscated. But there may be some restrictions and closing of loopholes when buying guns. With that discussion we need to include mental health issues. Also enforcing universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows should be discussed. Information and discussion are to be promoted not suppressed.

[Walt]

How soon Dougy forgets. Not many LIBS will have guns ( it's against their political religion)
So most of the armed people will be Constitution loving people.
Don't fret there Dougy,, I'm sure we will be able to spot just who is who. The funky clothing, and the smell of MJ in the wind would be a dead giveaway.

BTW,, Better get over to Ebay and get your bid in on that "assault rock" that's up for sale.
The last time I checked it was over four grand.
In the Middle East, these are still in full service.

One more thing. You might want to see what your dear Sen.Dianne Feinstein has to say on this matter. www.SenatorFeinstein.com

[Paul Emery]

Gregory 11:28 AM

Well spoken. Well for sure in this case the spook let the rats out with Presidential pardons (papa Bush). If they would have done a little hard time perhaps Obama would think twice before letting his Justice Department run wild. No deterrent, no problem.

Also Greg I disagree with your view of the Wayback Machine. Ignoring the crimes of the past gives free reign to crimes in the present and future. Obama can look at Iran Contra as a clear sign that he can do whatever he wants. The formula has been established for how to get away with anything. If Ollie North had done 20 years in the slammer do you think others would follow in his footsteps? Perhaps but with more caution if they knew they wouldn't be bailed out with a pardon. The President is the chief law enforcement officer in the land. Papa Bush made a joke out of that trust.

As for Ron Paul yes I wish I would have paid more attention to him. I don't agree with all of his views but I do agree with most especially when it comes to foreign policy. It's interesting that the two most outspoken members of the House are leaving, Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich leaving us with Tea Party Parrots and Republicrat loyalists to represent us. Forget Rand Paul. he's just happy to be there and won't cause any trouble.

[Walt]

Obviously the LIBS here HAVE NOT heard the words of the vary people they voted for.
"Iowa, state Rep. Dan Muhlbauer said governments should start confiscating semi-automatic rifles and other firearms.

“We should ban those in Iowa,” he said, adding that such a ban should be applied retroactively.

“We need to get them off the streets — illegally — and even if you have them, I think we need to start taking them,” Muhlbauer told the Daily Times Herald. “We can’t have those out there. Because if they’re out there they’re just going to get circulated around to the wrong people. Those guns should not be in the public’s hands. There are just too many guns.”

On Thursday, Feinstein will introduced her dream bill to disarm the American people.

The legislation is open-ended and includes provisions to re-register firearms and submit the fingerprints of law-abiding Americans as if they’re sex offenders.

Feinstein’s bill will also include a buy-back provision that will allow the government to confiscate all firearms. Both Feinstein and New York governor Andrew Cuomo have said that is their plan.

NO,,,, There is nothing going on in Gov. to attack the 2ND Amendment. Our guns are safe.... Right???

Yes, it seems a LIB or two here thinks the time to bitch is AFTER the Gestapo show up at the door. " No one has taken your guns" LOL Ben,,,
OK Ben,, check out the "banned guns" list of Ca. There are more banned guns, than "approved" guns. There are MANY makers of the good old 45 model 1911, but vary damned few of those makers are even allowed across the state line. Unless the maker coughs up a huge extortion fee.

[Gregory]

Paul 12:28

Paul, thanks for the sentiments but I think you're reading far too much into the pardons. Many were for folks who had already been tried and sentenced to... probation. As is usual, the crimes tend towards obstruction of justice and perjury, which, in essence, meant Bush partisans were fudging the truth rather than being open to special prosecutors during an election year witch hunt. Caspar, especially, decided falling on his sword was preferable to giving raw meat to the opposition. Not legal, but the probation sentences (not for Caspar) fit the crime and it seems a very Bush thing to do to leave office with the pardons. It's not like the slate was wiped clean; they remain in the history books in an unflattering light, and they were never going to be serving the hard time you wanted anyway.

The only thing linking Iran-Contra and Fast & Furious is leftist partisan rhetoric looking for any reason to look the other way NOW. In essence, "Bush got away with it, Obama should get away with it, too."

[Ben Emery]

Walt,
Your panties are all bunched up in just the mention of reform. Do you believe no reform is necessary?

I think you are mistaking banned weapons are equivalent to taking weapons. They are to completely different things. Hopefully you don't think surface to air fire arms should be available to all citizens.

Chalk another one up to the media and the two major parties for distorting the issue of mass killings into false equivalencies to drive the wall of division a little deeper into the ground and a little higher obstacle to overcome.

[Paul Emery]

You may perceive the linking as partisan rhetoric but to me Iran Contra was a historic power grab by the Presidency absolving them of the possibility of discovering high crimes and misdemeanors and possible legal actions.
Gregory, the fact that Iran Contra was whitewashed does set up the precedent and methodology for future abuse which we are witnessing today and will continue to see in the future because we tolerated Iran Contra. The fact that some readers of this blog still believe that nothing wrong was done is a good example.

In the case of Casper W's "raw meat" what was being pursued was the truth about who knew what when and the investigators were denied that information due to his convenient absence of memory and evasion of the truth. Should that action be rewarded with a patriotic pat on the back because his intentions were patriotic? Hell no. Bush pardoned Weinberger to save his own ass as you must know.

This may refresh your memory

" Mr. Weinberger was scheduled to stand trial on Jan. 5 on charges that he lied to Congress about his knowledge of the arms sales to Iran and efforts by other countries to help underwrite the Nicaraguan rebels, a case that was expected to focus on Mr. Weinberger's private notes that contain references to Mr. Bush's endorsement of the secret shipments to Iran.

In one remaining facet of the inquiry, the independent prosecutor, Lawrence E. Walsh, plans to review a 1986 campaign diary kept by Mr. Bush. Mr. Walsh has characterized the President's failure to turn over the diary until now as misconduct.

Decapitated Walsh Efforts

But in a single stroke, Mr. Bush swept away one conviction, three guilty pleas and two pending cases, virtually decapitating what was left of Mr. Walsh's effort, which began in 1986. Mr. Bush's decision was announced by the White House in a printed statement after the President left for Camp David, where he will spend the Christmas holiday.

Mr. Walsh bitterly condemned the President's action, charging that "the Iran-contra cover-up, which has continued for more than six years, has now been completed."

Mr. Walsh directed his heaviest fire at Mr. Bush over the pardon of Mr. Weinberger, whose trial would have given the prosecutor a last chance to explore the role in the affair of senior Reagan officials, including Mr. Bush's actions as Vice President."

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/29/reviews/iran-pardon.html

[Gregory]

Paul 1:17PM, Walsh, as it was, violated longstanding policy in his witchhunt, and may well have resulted in Clinton's first win in a malfeasant October surprise. Here's the wiki take:

"On the eve of the 1992 presidential election, on October 30, Mr. Walsh re-indicted Weinberger on one count of "false statements." The indictment conflicted with longstanding Justice Department policy of not bringing an indictment of a political figure out of a grand jury after August of an election year. Walsh went further, specifically implicating Bush in the scandal, though the accusation was irrelevant to the indictment. Bush had been closing the gap with Bill Clinton when Walsh made the indictment, and many believe Walsh's action put the final nail in his campaign.[2][3][4] Clinton administration attorney Lanny Davis called the decision to indict a week before the election rather than after the election "bizarre."[2] Judge Thomas Hogan dismissed the October indictment two months later for being outside the statute of limitations.[4] Weinberger's subsequent pardon by President George Bush in December 1992 preempted any trial. Walsh steadfastly denied that the investigation was politically motivated, as Bush and others criticized it as "the criminalization of policy differences."

It's been 25 years, and we had 8 years of Clinton and 4 years of Obama justice departments that left it alone in the meantime. Give it a rest, it's dead and buried by all who could reanimate it.

[Ben Emery]

Paul,
To your unaccountable executive branch and DOJ it really started with the Policy of Containment in the 40's and 50's. This is what Eisenhower was so freaked out by and why he tried to warn us about it throughout his administrations with the most known speeches Cross Of Irons (53') and his farewell speech (61'). LBJ with the Gulf of Tonkin, ignored. Nixon got caught and pardoned of any crimes committed. Reagan Iran/ Contra among many other crimes ignored by HW Bush administration because he was an accomplice. Clinton ignored both Bush and Reagan crimes. W Bush ignored Clinton crimes and now Obama ignores W Bush crimes. This is a perfect example of a machine or institution that is shared by both Democratic and Republican Party leaderships and where the people are no longer represented and can hold accountable those who control our one party government.

Despite big differences in our domestic ideas I would have voted for Ron Paul if he was on the ballot due to our agreement on the issues/ powers that the Executive Branch holds. I don't believe he is controlled by the machine, which is why the republican party marginalized him much like Kucinich and the democratic party.

Cross Of Irons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04P4zPzspuI

Farewell Address
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY

[Paul Emery]

Gregory
Of course Clinton left it alone.
Clinton, of all people, would have squashed any detailed look at the Drug Cash for Contras investigation especially out of Arkansas under Clinton's watch. They are all slime as far as I'm concerned.

THE CRIMES OF MENA

"Clinton has acknowledged learning officially about Mena only in April 1988, though a state police investigation had been in progress for several years. As the state's chief executive, Clinton often claimed to be fully abreast of such inquiries. In his one public statement on the matter as governor, in September 1991 he spoke of that investigation finding "linkages to the federal government," and "all kinds of questions about whether he [Seal] had any links to the C.l.A.... and if that backed into the Iran-Contra deal."

But then Clinton did not offer further support for any inquiry, "despite the fact," as Bill Plante and Michael Singer of CBS News have written, "that a Republican administration was apparently sponsoring a Contra-aid operation in his state and protecting a smuggling ring that flew tons of cocaine through Arkansas."

As recently as March 1995, Arkansas state trooper Larry Patterson testified under oath, according to *The London Sunday Telegraph*, that he and other officers "discussed repeatedly in Clinton's presence" the "large quantities of drugs being flown into the Mena airport, large quantities of money, large quantities of guns," indicating that Clinton may have known much more about Seal's activities than he has admitted."

[Paul Emery]

Oh yes, the link.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/the_crimes_of_mena.htm

[Walt]

LOL Ben, " restrictions" you say? You sure were bent out of shape with the "restrictions"
on pot. From how much someone can grow, and where.Let alone possess. ( but somehow THIS is different.) Only when it's a "right" ( as some see it) that you feel is being infringed, do you drag out the pitchforks.( or alligator roach clips in this case)

On that note, show us just where in the Constitution does it say " The use of MJ shall not be infringed". I have yet to find the "420TH" anywhere in that document.
But those four words ( that some LIBS despise) do appear in the 2ND. What part of " Shall not be infringed" don't you ( and LIBS in general) don't comprehend?

Then we come to another elected LIB comment. " Military style guns should not be in the public's hands". Aside from full automatic, and anything larger than 50 cal ( that would be .51 and up) The "public" have had them. From the revolutionary war on up. The "military"
rifle was not much more than a civilian rifle.
Now,, the anti gun gang would like to keep us gun lovers, and honest citizens to go back 100 years in personal protection and remove the modern firearm from our hands. ( nice way to stage a governmental takeover of the disarmed people.)

It seems our founding Fathers saw Obummer and his followers coming. Hence the 2ND.

Forget that just before WWII a certain German "president" disarmed the general public too?
" You don't need them. The Government will protect you." How did that work out for the Jewish citizens of Germany?

But OF COURCE,,, That couldn't and wouldn't happen here.... ( says you)

[Gregory]

Paul, are you the News Director at VMR, or are you the Olds Director?

Let's try this... list all of the past crimes, real or imagined, that you think need to be thoroughly aired before Fast & Furious can be handled. Please be complete, everything, so some bimbo-ish memory eruption won't derail a chat about ongoing crimes that you seem to be doing your best to ignore.

[Gregory]

And Paul, a piece of the Walsh puzzle you dropped... his bringing of charges just days before the election that were thrown out because a most basic element, the statute of limitations, had been exceeded. This is either incompetence or malfeasance. I suggest the latter. He improperly used his office to try to throw the election and it may well have been the straw that brought that paragon of civic and private virtue, Clinton, into the oval orifice.

And, no, I didn't throw Bush the 1st a sympathy vote the second time around, either.

[Walt]

More words form Pres. Chavez the second.
"My understanding is the vice president's going to provide a range of steps that we can take to reduce gun violence," said Obama. "Some of them will require legislation, some of them I can accomplish through executive action. And so I will be reviewing those today, and as I said, I will speak in more detail to what we're going to go ahead and propose later in the week. But I'm confident that there are some steps that we can take that don't require legislation and that are within my authority as president, and where you get a step that, has the opportunity to reduce the possibility of gun violence, then i want to go ahead and take it."

So.... Some how he now has powers that over ride the Constitution, Congress and the 2ND amendment in general. and ALL by executive order.
It sure reads like " infringement" to me.

And who makes seven round capacity magazines? But I guess lawmakers can throw out any number they like. ( yes, some Progressives just passed that state law somewhere.)
Nice way to drive up the cost. Now they get a taste of Calif. "special" stupidity.( special fuel, cars, trucks, engines, etc.)

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

I think history helps put things in perspective and Iran Contra was a major moment in defining Presidential power. In my view the impeachable crimes were far greater than Watergate but the Republicrats supported Reagan and allowed the investigation to die an unnatural death because Ronnie was popular to the ruling class and Nixon wasn't. Bush was the cleanup man as well as project manager and his pardons were predictable and functional. You seem to infer that Clinton had a vested interest in continuing the investigation but for reasons already expressed that seems unlikely. "Read my lips" was Bush's downfall along with Clintons charisma and campaign skills and, of course, Ross Perot, the biggest reason. The final numbers were National Results: Clinton 43%, Bush 37%, Perot, 19%. I doubt if Iran Contra had much to do with it but, although it's an interesting theory, but a weak argument.

Our views of this historic event are not that far apart but I question why you disregard the perspective I offer that Fast and Furious is an extension of Presidential arrogance and power that was so well exercised during Reagan - Bush times.

[Gregory]

"Somebody's not hearing the screams of pain from Sandy Hook"

Channeling dead children? Wasn't that a John Edwards specialty?

[Gregory]

Paul, I disregard anything that sounds more like the rationalization by a newsman of their ignoring current crimes. Get over it. This is how Croats and Serbs, and the Irish and Irish, manage to keep fighting over the past.

There's NOTHING you or I can do to litigate crimes that might have been committed 25 years ago. I have no interest in digging out the most minute detail that is on the net that may or may not be true and verifiable. It's purely a distraction. The statutes of limitation that were already past in '92 are even more past now. Walsh helped get rid of Bush, albeit in a sleazy way. Isn't that enough for you?

So, Fast & Furious? Or more, "Look! Haley's Comet!" equivalents? Your choice.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

The shelf life of Fast and Furious will be limited to a few months. Historically it breaks no ground and is entirely consistent with the Imperial Presidency's we have become accustomed to.

[Walt]

Dr. R... Since muzzle loaders are within our ownership laws, does a mortar tube
fall within that "rule"? It IS a muzzle loader by definition.
Since every gun right is boiled down to a Progressive's perspective, and the written word
is open to suggestion ( Yes,,Never mind the clear wording, but this is what they "really" meant to say.")

The LIB talking points lately have been along the line of ,, " The founding Fathers never envisioned guns that we have today". I'm sure all of us have heard that line of BS.

The same can be said for "right of a free press" Think they envisioned the "press" being a mouthpiece for an ever increasing tyrannical government? The Hollywood Left have their own rights as well, all under the umbrella of " art".
Never mind the mass killings they portray as "art".. You have seen those shows,,, " Criminal minds", "CSI" etc. But no mad call to stop that kind of programing. And you think these programs don't give lunatics ideas? " HAY,,! I can do better than that, I can be smarter and get away with it."
Now we see those vary same people who have made their millions off violence on TV and the silver screen reading another script, this time advocating the LIB anti gun mantra.
Let's put limits on them first. These nut jobs are only copying what they saw on a show somewhere. The Hollywood types could have put the idea in their heads in the first place.
Watch how fast they would claim THEIR rights as "artists" would be infringed if we did.

[George Rebane]

Walt 419pm - Interesting question. Indirect fire weapons are designated as guns, howitzers, and mortars by what is called their 'caliber length', which is the length of their tubes (barrels) measured in the number of their bore diameters (calibers). Mortars are generally 'muzzle loaders' of less than 10 caliber lengths. Guns start with a minimum of about 25 caliber lengths, and everything in between is a howitzer. I'm not sure that our gun laws allow civilians to have indirect fire weapons regardless of their caliber length or type of bore.

[Gregory]

Paul, got it. You just don't care about government crimes unless it's on the watch of guys you really don't like.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

I just call it like I see it. Fast and Furious has no legs because it's pretty routine stuff we've come to expect from the Republicrats. It's a bit bizarre though but pretty routine government collusion with organized crime that's been going on for upteen years. It used to be supervised by J Edgar Hoover but now the stakes are higher and has it's own department-the DOJ. Of course the Obama administration did not invent the scheme. Under the pubbers it was called Operation Wide Receiver.

"The Justice Department released documents Thursday on the Bush-era Wide Receiver gun-walking operation that suggest the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was aware that guns were likely flowing into Mexico but allowed it to continue in the hopes of penetrating deeply into U.S.-Mexico gun trafficking networks.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71127.html#ixzz2I0ugecxx

These operations are seldom specific to one administration. That was certainly true of Iran Contra which was one reason the investigations failed. Watergate was an exception but was probaly triggered by the FBI's desire to throw Nixon under the bus.

[Jesus Betterman]

Walt naively believes that everyone on the right will respect the properties of the others on the right. Not a chance that someone will be paranoid to want to grab everything in sight, because, after all, they and their buddies are more important than your life. You'd better get your militias well organized ahead of time, and be prepared to take orders from the commander in chief, because that's what it says you have to do. Surely you believe in the Constitution?

If you are afraid to walk certain public areas in the USA, then they are foreign occupied, for all practical purposes.

[Gregory]

Paul, freerepublic put it this way, not uniquely:

"Horowitz mysteriously chose to lump Fast and Furious, as Team Obama does, with a Bush-era program, Wide Receiver. That operation was run out of Tucson between 2006 and 2007, ending before Bush left office and before Fast and Furious began in 2009.

Both Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious were part of a bigger effort called Project Gunrunner, which began in 2006. Even so, the differences between the two are vast, starting with the fact that Wide Receiver produced no dead bodies. It was run in close cooperation with Mexican authorities, as Fast and Furious wasn't, and involved gun-tracing and not gun-walking.

The report was repeatedly invoked by Holder as a reason for withholding answers and documents on Fast and Furious from OGR Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

Along with Sen. Charles Grassley, D-Iowa, Issa led the investigation of the operation that saw Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and ICE Agent Jaime Zapata murdered with guns supplied by the program. Holder, held in contempt by the House, still isn't very forthcoming"

It's easy, just think "Holder lied. People died."

[Ben Emery]

Can anyone name a federal Attorney General office that didn't lie to the people in our lifetimes? Once again I will point out my broken record message.

Both major parties are bought and sold by big business and the interests of ordinary people don't mean a thing. The two parties work together for the interests of the same people by the ancient strategy of divide et impera, divide and rule. Our government has been usurped by big business through the dependence of easy money to fund the two largest institutions in the US and perhaps the world, the Democratic and Republican Parties. Until we rid ourselves of this enemy of democratic government and start electing representatives that pledge to fight against this corruption we will continue to argue obsolete issues on the basis that they are the major problems facing us today. That is how the powers that be divide and rule. Look at my left hand that is showing emotional/ distracting issues while my right hand corrupts and plunders our nations wealth.

Gunrunner and Wide Receiver were both build ups that allowed the Fast & Furious to be implemented. Gradualism is the best way to create huge changes without massive opposition. Both parties do it and I don't think the voters in either camp would approve of it on its face but when partisanship comes into play voters tend to ignore their teams "noble lies" to further the greater good of a particular ideology.

[Ben Emery]

Russ Steele | 12 January 2013 at 11:11 AM

It is based off a very well researched book about inequality called "The Spirit Level". Here is a review from Time World addition. I would argue anti-depressants play a large role in this issue as well but unfortunately we are a few years away from a comprehensive study of the idea and almost for sure more people will needlessly die as the consequence.

The Importance of Economic Equality
Spirit Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett

"What if there was a way to raise a population's life expectancy and reduce its rates of crime, suicide, teenage pregnancy and mental illness, among other social problems? British epidemiologists Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett believe they have found one. In The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger, published in the U.S. on Dec. 22, they present data suggesting that almost every indicator of social health in wealthy societies is related to its level of economic equality. (See the data here). Comparing statistics between developed economies and within the U.S., Wilkinson and Pickett argue GDP and overall wealth matter little to wealthy societies. Rather, it is the gap between the rich and poor that is telling. They spoke to TIME about what they believe are revolutionary findings."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948806,00.html#ixzz2I1L5PAGc

[George Rebane]

Getting back to gun control and protecting our school kids from shooters, I invite you to read the 14jan13 update to 'How to Protect School Children in Schools'.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/12/how-to-protect-school-children-in-schools.html

[Jesus Betterman]

George, both of these threads are already too long, it would have been better to start a fresh one.

I see that you have identified the problem as one of reducing the number of dead bodies, while totally ignoring the look in the eyes of the girl as she swung her IPad around to show me what her mom had just called about in a total panic, on that day, as I was a guest teacher (their choice of words, Greg) at a local middle school.

What you have to be much more concerned about is the sense of terror that namby pambying about the issue is only increasing, among an entire generation of children.

Let's review the document, and this time pay attention to all of the words, therein:

"There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with slight capitalization and punctuation differences, found in the official documents surrounding the adoption of the Bill of Rights.[5] One version was passed by the Congress,[6] while another is found in the copies distributed to the States[7] and then ratified by them.

As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[8]

The original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights, approved by the House and Senate, was prepared by scribe William Lambert and resides in the National Archives.

Which word comes first, "KEEP" or "BEAR?"

"Keep" comes first, and Americans have failed miserably at this.

There need to be laws on the books that put financial teeth into the "keeping" side of things. I have outlined such laws, and called attention to such potential laws, several times here, yet I see no reference in your list on the school gun control side of these writings here.

I do not call for banning any guns or ammo. I call for those who buy them to have to "keep" them, or face significant financial penalties, during the first five years of ownership, unless they legitimately transfer ownership. It could even be on a progressive scale, based on a person's income taxes or net worth (the latter is a big no-no, the elephant in the room, unwritten rules against even bringing it up, for taxes or anything, protected informally even more so than the 2nd amendment, haha, I see you)

In short, you buy a bond at the same time you by the weapon, and once each year you show the weapon to the local sheriff, or you forfeit the bond. Each year that goes by, the bond requirement decreases 20%. This applies only to new gun purchases. For more details, see:

http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/12/refined-version-keeping-guns-away-from.html

I would love, of course, for it to apply to all guns, but that would be probably viewed as ex post facto taxation. Obviously responsible collectors would have reduced rates, but could be held accountable, by forfeiting whatever is left of their collection, after it is stolen or misused, because of undo ease of access. Concrete walls, floors, and ceilings would be advised for adequate protection of large collections. Otherwise, a safe that requires three people to move, alarmed as well, of course. After all, it's right there in the amendment, "KEEP!"

I've had my say, and I have not BANNED one damn thing. But I have stopped a great deal of illegal transfers and misuses, which we so desperately need.

[Jesus Betterman]

Is there anyone on these threads that is a Sandy Hook Truthier? And George doesn't think that there are those out there crazy enough to think an assassination attempt would be patriotic? George has no idea of the number of nut cases running around this country.

Try these nut cases on for size, and "professor" James Trask at Florida Atlantic University, while you are at it:

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/this_man_helped_save_six_children_is_now_getting_harassed_for_it/

[Jesus Betterman]

On the other end of the spectrum, we have the stupids closing the doors on known other parents:

http://www.freerangekids.com/post-traumatic-stupidity-syndrome-for-safety-do-not-hold-the-door-open-for-the-parent-behind-you-at-drop-off/

[Ryan Mount]

Although the "truther" thing is a bit of a tempest in a crackpot tea pot, as Forrest Gump reminds us "stupid is, as stupid does."

America is indeed collapsing under the weight of its own stupidity, like a rotten-out deck holding up a bunch of drunken teenagers.

"Dude, did you hear that? That creaking noise?"

"Whatever man, just tap the new keg. Do you have any dope?"

[Jesus Betterman]

And the NRA cannot make up its mind on video games: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/15/16524425-nra-releases-practice-range-shooting-app-after-blaming-video-games-for-violence?lite

[George Rebane]

re JesusB's various - Yes,minimizing the number of dead bodies that we can all count is what I propose as a working utility function for making gun control policy. Basing policy on the horrified looks in the eyes of survivors, it the typical pandering polemics used by either the ignorant and/or those with a more sinister agenda.

Interpreting the 2nd Amendment's 18th century "keep" wording to include the bonding of legal gun owners is a leap beyond logic and practicality (as I have argued before). Arguing that it is not an effective 'taking' of guns from citizens is akin to arguing that the South's unaffordable poll taxes did not deny the vote to the blacks. Nevertheless, Jesus' (DougK's) recommendation is a serious one that in such discussions as this be put on the table with all the others.

And equating NRA's target practice interactive app with the blood and disembowelment video games is only another incomprehensible illustration of the liberal mind that widens the chasm between us.

[Ben Emery]

I haven't had a chance to read the book but my friend sent me a link to the story.

The Hidden History of the Second Amendment

By Professor Carl T. Bogus
Roger Williams University School of Law
as published in the U.C. Davis Law Review

Synopsis

In his recent U.C. Davis Law Review article "The Hidden History of the Second Amendment," Roger Williams University School of Law Professor Carl T. Bogus offers a thesis that could forever change the way Americans view the Second Amendment: James Madison wrote the Second Amendment to assure the southern states that Congress would not undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, which were then the principal instruments of slave control throughout the South.

Full synopsis here:
http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/hidhist.htm

[Ryan Mount]

> Basing policy on the horrified looks in the eyes of survivors, it the typical pandering polemics used by either the ignorant and/or those with a more sinister agenda.

Pathos trumps reason and is the cheapest rhetorical mode of persuasion. It's the Coca-Cola of theoretical nutrition. "How can we look into the eyes of those poor Sandy Hook children and not act!" Utter bullshit and insulting to our kindest sensibilities. Does my ass look big in these massacre jeans, honey?

It's really no different than the anti-abortion crowd does with pictures of aborted fetuses? Or the Westboro Baptist Church and their putrid protest signage? Or are these more rational approaches to influence people's opinions and subsequent laws?

My point is, as I believe your point is, our approach to these issues is irrational. Because scaring people, works. Thinking takes more (too much) work. I'm beginning to think we're not worthy of our Republic due to our stupidity. Or better, we're getting exactly the government we deserve.

[Jesus Betterman]

Ryan and George, Money talks, bullshit walks.

Until you put the fear of losing cash into the minds of those who possess and can transfer guns into the wrong hands, through inattention or deliberate profit motive, you will not reduce the body count.

[Ryan Mount]

Doug-

Just so we're clear. I don't like guns. But not because I'm afraid of them or the people who possess them. I have no issue with background checks and bonded/insured weapons. I do not see how that infringes on one's right to bear arms in any significant way. Instead of "gun control," perhaps the movement should use terms like "more regulated." At least you'd be sharing the same language. Right now, the anti-gun crowd is subtly implying that gun rights people tacitly approve of massacres by opposing new regulations. That's not a winning proposition.

Ben-

That's certainly one of the reasons. But not the only one. The 2nd Amendment's "intentions" are varied. And certainly the final drafts look very different than the first ones as subsequent revisions muted the importance of the Militia. And later drafts equivocated somewhat on whether one needed to be apart of a well regulated Militia to bear firearms.

What if the first Amendment read like this:

"A well educated citizenry, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear books, shall not be infringed."

How would we interpret that?

[George Rebane]

JesusB 942am - pre-bonding guns history gives lie to your conclusion. Perhaps it was another culture that then kept us from killing each other when guns could and were carried freely.

[Jesus Betterman]

"A well educated citizenry, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear books, shall not be infringed."

How would we interpret that?

as legalizing off tracking betting by everyone?

If there are going to be no new regulations, then nothing is going to change, and the killings will continue. Going on as we have been is simply not an option, if we want change. My guess is that encouraging armed schools will result in even more school killings. I assume you know of "death by police fire" being a form of suicide? The Sandy Hook shooter was seconds away from that.

[Jesus Betterman]

" pre-bonding guns history gives lie to your conclusion"

not sure where such history is found.

as for earlier times in the American west, especially in Gold country, the hammer was preferred, while the person was sleeping out of doors, near their claim. less likely to wake anyone else up, while searching for the dead man's stash.

I think that there is very little in low population density 1800's America and today's canyonized cities, that offers a fair direct comparison.

[Gregory]

The Keachie sock both complains about the length of the thread, and is the main contributor to the length.

Here's a take from Reason that's worth reading:
"Over the past 20 years or so, more guns are in circulation and violent crime is down. So is violent crime that uses guns. Murders are down, too, even as video games and movies and music and everything else are filled with more fantasy violence than ever. For god's sake, even mass shootings are not becoming more common. If ever there was a case to stand pat in terms of public policy, the state of gun control provides it (and that's without even delving into the fact that Supreme Court has recently validated a personal right to own guns in two landmark cases). It's probably always been the case but certainly since the start of 21st century, it seems like we legislate only by crisis-mongering and the results have not been good: The PATRIOT Act, the Iraq War, TARP, fiscal cliff deals, you name it. Would that cooler heads prevailed then and now."

I wonder if the rush to get 'er done has more to do with getting legislation into place *before* all the details about the Newtown shooter are released by authorities and people realize none of the new laws would have done a thing to hinder it.

[George Rebane]

re JesusB's 1039am - that lost history you seek was still being practiced as little as 50 years ago. I have described that culture numerous times in these pages since I and so many others lived through it. And Greg's 1100am is spot on and germain to the current hysteria as have been its prequels over the years.
***

In passing, I repeat that RR is a continuing and expanding record of thoughts, ideas, and opinions, primarily mine, but also in the larger sense a record of the thoughts of all who regularly comment here. Demands by commenters, those with short memories or deficient search energy, that I repeat again and again what is already written here will in the most part be ignored. What I will respond to, however, is a commenter who cites my stated position on some issue or facet with which he finds errors in fact and/or logic. In fact, such citations (not baseless allegations) that apply to issues new and/or re-examined will be much welcomed.

[Walt]

Radical LIBS just don't know when to stop.
First they want to ban our guns "to stop the killing" ( ya,, right)
and at the vary same time protect, and make excuses for, violent movies and video games.
Now, right out of the box, some gun hating LIB, goes and makes a video game
with one of the "targets" being of the President of the NRA.

Here is the full story.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/15/photos-from-new-bullet-to-the-head-of-the-nra-computer-game-will-horrify-you/

[George Rebane]

Walt 227pm - Just returned from a local hardware store, and saw a slew of mostly liberal bumper stickers. Your comment reminds me of what I just saw, what we all see and have learned to just overlook. But should we?

These bumper stickers were full of hate - pure and simple. Calling out Republicans, conservatives, and Tea Party members as being everything from "greedy", "killers", "murderers", "gun nuts", "assholes", ... seems to be standard fare on the back windows and bumpers of vehicles that also include the usual Obama logo and various eco-slogans. Why don't we see similar vitriol from the Right? Their bumper stickers attack policies and ideological tenets of the Left. I haven't seen any such vile reciprocation, am I overlooking something?

[Walt]

It's that well known double standard.( The Tea Party is a terrorist group, and OWS is a harmless, Sunday social club. Care to compare arrest records? LOL) It's OK when "they" are over the top offencive, but when they get a taste of their own words and attitude,they nut up. They would more than love to send you the bill for the therapist (rent a buddy) your comments made them go see.

I read something interesting today, and remember hearing about it, but no more came of it.
An AR was recovered from the car the killer drove. So how many really did he have? How come video footage hasn't been released? I'm sure there is plenty that doesn't show any carnage. Nothing showing the killer with an AR. That's not like our anti gun media. If there is something I missed, my apologies.

[George Rebane]

Walt 624pm - Excellent point Walt. I too have not seen any evidence that an AR was used by the killer. But there were immediate reports that an AR was found in the killer's car. How many indeed?

[Douglas Keachie]

Well here's a happy community for Geirge and Walt and all the rest to move to: http://www.politicususa.com/gun-nuts-build-2000-acre-citadel-idahos-american-redoubt.html

[Michael Anderson]

George wrote: "Just returned from a local hardware store, and saw a slew of mostly liberal bumper stickers."

Huh? Doesn't sound like any "local" hardware store that I'm aware of! LOL

[Brad Croul]

Guns are like drugs for most Americans; they are over prescribed, results are not guaranteed, and nasty side effects can occur when they are not used according to directions or mixed with alcohol or other drugs. Gun ownership should be treated with at least the same level of regulation as automobiles and auto registration- vehicles are registered, drivers need licenses, and there are different classes of driver licenses for different types of vehicles. Just as kids should not be given the keys to the car, the keys to the gun safe should not be given to kids to play with (gun regulations could be varied for farm use as with off-road vehicles).

The paranoid thinking that, "the next step is to get us to all register our guns so "they" can take them away from us", is laughable.
Look how well the government controls prescription and illegal drug abuse.

The whole redoubt community idea shows how wacked out the right wing extremists have become. Northern Idaho seems to have become the playground of white racists, right wing extremists, wannabe Rambos, KKK, etc. (probably more than a few meth stills also up there to support the "cause").

Here are some articles about some of the like-minded neighbors in that hood.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/11/white_supremacist_plans_northe.html

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/19/10763789-n-idaho-white-supremacist-runs-for-sheriff?lite

http://www.nwnewsnetwork.org/post/failed-compound-illustrates-disarray-white-supremacy-movement

[George Rebane]

DougK 721am - your hot flash was already covered here. See the 13jan13 update to this post. However, perhaps the comment does serve to illustrate the attentiveness of the liberal mind since you are joined by BradC and MichaelA. BradC's vitriol serves to underline my report on leftwing bumperstickers which, BTW, were all quite visible in the B&C parking lot. I suppose we all see what we want to see - Kahneman named it 'confirmation bias'.

But I will say that you liberals are truly a scary bunch when we listen to how you describe people you don't like, and what you want to do to and about them. Why is it that the Right always wants to escape the Left, and the Left seeks to pursue and control?

[Ryan Mount]

George, the American Left tends to takes a shotgun approach to a myriad of issues. Pardon the metaphor. On any day there can be several causes that need attention: the environment, ADA lawsuits, meditation retreats with coffee enemas, etc.

Ergo, the more bumper stickers one has on the back of their car, the more truthiness they have. It's a simple law of averages: at least one of the shotgun pellets will hit it mark.

That said, I'm not so sure the Right has monopoly on good behavior. However, given that they are less prone to sloganize the backs of their cars with bumper stickers, perhaps the scope of their vitriol seems less. But then again, Conservatives tend to keep their opinions to themselves for one reason or another.

[George Rebane]

RyanM 904am - No claim made of the Right's "monopoly on good behavior". But I definitely claim the tremendous asymmetry between the public behaviors of those espousing conservative/libertarian views and those demonstrating for collectivist causes. That record alone confirms the proposition that almost all revolutions are started by collectivists - only the American and the older Swiss revolutions come to mind that were started by people seeking governments that had a smaller role in their lives.

However, as even these pages reveal, the socialists are constantly pointing fingers at the conservatives as being a hair trigger away from revolting. A total misunderstanding of history and the currents of today's polarization, but also a perfect expression of the leftwing MO of painting your opposition with exactly the opposite attributes of those expressed and demonstrated.

[Michael Anderson]

Oh, I see. You were talking about bumper stickers in the parking lot!! I thought you meant inside the store, for sale.
LOL!!

My own take on bumper sticker silliness is that people with all kinds of opinions are equal opportunity offenders. I disagree completely that one side is ruder than the other; they're all equally rude.

I think bumper stickers on your daily driver are gauche. I haven't had one on a car since the 1980s, when I gave 'em up. Now my art truck is something different altogether: that baby sports an NRA sticker, USM Semper Fi!, and a "Bush for Prisoner" sticker. Equal opportunity gauche-i-ness is the best was to go if you are trying to achieve maximum rudeness.

[Brad Croul]

George, yes, I saw your 13jan13 update on 13jan13, googled the Citadel site, and could only shake my head in wonderment. BTW - I love the AR ad at the top of the page! That pretty much says it all.

No vitriol here, just illustrating that, as you said, "we see what we want to see". Your Citadel reference seems to only exacerbate any misunderstanding the left might have about a conservative revolt.

I am trying to imagine what an average day at the Citadel will look like. Will it be a bunch of Tea Party patriots simply sitting around the bridge table strapped with their hoglegs like some wild west saloon in a John Wayne movie? Will their crenelated ranch style homes be manned by armed sentries?
Will trap and skeet be offered from the parapets of the CItadel clubhouse/castle?

How do you see life at the Citadel?

A case could be made that Nevada County has been settled by a bunch of "flower people" who just want to grow pot and live off the land - potential and recent immigrants to Northern Idaho and the rest of the "American Redoubt" just seem to want a return to their ideas of "simpler" times.

Ryan, I see plenty of Tea Party, NRA, and political, etc. bumper stickers around here and have seen and heard more than a few conservative opinions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Q-sRdV7SY

[Gregory]

I just heard that paragon, Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, state that his senate Judiciary Committee will be holding hearings in two weeks on Assault weapons and large capacity magazines. He was specific that in Vermont, hunters were limited to 6 cartridges and that childred should have more protection than deer do.

The Senator didn't mention that not only were "assault weapons" and other semi-automatic rifles (that don't look like M16's) and large capacity magazines legal in Vermont, honest-to-Zarquon machine guns are legal in Vermont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state#Vermont

Machine guns are NFA (National Firearms Act) weapons, unrestricted in Vermont. Also Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virgina and Wyoming. A few other states allow NFA items with some restriction.

Leahy wants to get rid of guns that look like military weapons; the above states allow the real thing, assuming you can afford one, as the prices have gone up since the Feds froze the number available. You need to be rich *and* living in the right state.

[Ryan Mount]

I make all of my decisions based on bumper stickers and decals.

Therefore, I'm going to hold a bake sale to determine if Bush lied and soldiers died, because the best things in life aren't things, they're birth certificates.

[Gregory]

Ryan, bumper stickers are more of a declaration of tribal affiliation than a rational discourse.

[earlcrabb]

Most of my living relatives reside in Bonner County, Idaho. When mom passed away in '08, two of my uncles came down for the funeral so I asked if my suspicions about Grandpa were true; that he was a member of the Klan. One unc confirmed it was true, but the other one had no idea that his pop was a racist.
In fact, there are so many ex-Nevada County natives living in that area that it should probably qualify as a sister city. (And the favorite sister is Sarah Palin, who was born there.)
If you've never experienced Sandpoint, you are missing one of the most beautiful places on the planet. Most of the locals keep their guns close when out picking huckleberries or fishing, not because of the nutcases, but due to the many bears that also call it home. I've seen them up close, and you wouldn't want to mess with them.

[Ryan Mount]

> Bumper stickers are more of a declaration of tribal affiliation than a rational discourse.

Fashion. It's funny how some people discuss issues with bumper sticker-like rhetoric.

Speaking of which, I've always considered the band Rage Against the Machine the music equivalent of a bumper sticker.

[Walt]

Here is a flashback of "O"'s previous stance on criminals with guns.

In 1999, State Senator Barack Obama voted “present” on a bill that would require adult prosecution for discharging a gun in or near a school.

That legislation came as a response to the tragic Columbine High School shooting that year.

SB 759 provided that anyone 15 years of age or older charged with aggravated battery with a weapon in school or within 1,000 feet of a school would be charged as an adult.

It passed the Illinois State Senate in a 52-1 vote, with 5 members voting present — including Obama.

But now that he is the mighty "O", things are now somehow different.

I'm not sure if this has been covered in earlier posts, if it has, my apologies.
Since our LIBS love to attack anything "racist", and call for it's immediate removal, then they better see things our way when it comes to gun laws, and here is the reason why.
The vary first restrictive gun laws were written for they vary porpoise of keeping guns out of the hands of minorities. The revisionists haven't caught up with that bit of history yet.
So get with the program Lefties, Here is your big chance to set things straight.
You guys seem to be experts at attacking anything racist, or with racist roots.
But I guess that since it's one of your own doing the "restricting", and a minority ta'boot, that's fine and dandy. Restrict away.
and in closing,,, It's clear that "O" didn't read his own heath care law(s)(tax)
.. There is that little law in there that is supposed to keep the Doctors from asking about guns in the home. That's 180 deg. from what he "proposed"(signed) today. So again we see how "O" and Co. try and have things both ways.

[Douglas Keachie]

Sorry George, I missed your update, have been busy tracking Sandy Hook False Flag stuff elsewhere, came by that link, and thought you'd like it. BTW, how many daisy cutters would it take to wipe out the 3,000 acres, and the 7 to 8 mile long wall (rough guess) surrounding it, and were are they getting food from?

Meanwhile, elsewhere, False Flag stories about Sandy Hook are multiplying like bacteria, growing in cultures both right and left, and FB is now Big Brother:

How am I feeling, Facebook? You should know, I am really, really ticked off, at YOU! In a thread I started, you've run amuck! At this point I could care less about the damn guns being discussed in the thread. Where are all the comments and serious discussion???? Who stole my free speech and that of others???? FACEBOOK the DESTROYER! I just got a note about posting elsewhere, that asked if an eight sentence paragraph might be spam, after I had typed in 8 sentences of original material, and for what, no cuss words, nothing???? FB I may be about to unfriend you.

This really happened, probably somebody just didn't like the points being made and decided to trash the whole thread by crying to FB about spam or or such.

At least here I can say that those who fail at the "Keep" section of the 2nd ought to be taken out and shot for dereliction of duty, and have it stick. I see Greg is boning up on anthro, good comment about bumper stickers, and Ryan adds to the mix with great humor. If Cirino's closes, will the absence of gin and tonics lose that? I hope not.

[Gregory]

"Greg is boning up on anthro"

No, I am not, and I see the root Keachie sock still hasn't boned up on reading comprehension.

Ryan, one of the funniest moments on Saturday Night Live in the past was with guest host Steve Forbes during an election cycle he was active in, who did one skit as Teve Torbes, which ended with a Bob Dole character (Norm McDonald) exclaiming, "Teve Torbes, tuck off!". But that skit wasn't as funny as the look on the band's face when "Rage Against the Machine!" was exclaimed by Forbes as they began to play their set.

Suck up to the machine...

[Douglas Keachie]

In the Old West, they used to hang horse thieves, but no where in the Constitution does it mention horse thieves. Obviously horses (cars today) are more important to Americans than guns, or the Constitution. Still no answer to the daisy cutter question? So here's another one. How much does it cost to build a 7 mile wall? My guess is that whoever is doing this owns the land, and will make a fortune off of selling and then reclaiming defaulters with stars and guns in their eyes. BTW, Hollywood can have fun with the idea, with urban hordes storming the place. Where will they store how much food?

[George Rebane]

DougK 242pm - At times you have chastised us for having no sense of humor and taking your comments too seriously. Just to be sure, I assume that you're working yourself through one of those periods now.

[Walt]

You might want to read up on just why horse and cattle thieves were hung
from the first tree with a strong limb.
Here is a hint to get you in the right direction. It had to do with a man dieing in the frontier left with no mode of transportation. ( that just a little part of it. Now do your own mining to find the rest.
And back then justice was harsh, and swift. To the tune of just weeks and months, instead of months, years, and decades today.( Heck.. Don't like your current gender? No problem. Do a good crime, get some time, and the taxpayer will pay for your operation.

[Gregory]

Walt, a short, apocryphal story that may have happened...

"Judge, why did you let the killer walk away, but sentenced the horse thief to hang?"

"Well, I reckon I've met men who needed killing but I ain't never seen a horse that needed to be stolen."

[George Rebane]

re Walt's 336pm - Gentlemen, yes justice was often swift in the old West if not accurate. Moreover, proper ladies and children were held in the highest regard. More than once a drunken town rowdie was strung up from the nearest lamppost for not showing proper deference, let alone slighting, a member of the polite fair sex.

And did you know that a rather firm version of the horse thieving law is still on the books in California? Not that long ago a judge in Owens Valley sentenced two high country hoodlums to serious jail time after they stole the backpacks of campers absent from their camp site. The invoked horse stealing law allowed the judge to conclude that in the high country a backpack is as critical to survival as was a horse to a traveler in olden times.

Finally, when we refer to men being 'hung', it is to be taken as a compliment to the heroic proportions of their external plumbing. The condemned may also be hung, but when executed, he is then referred to as being 'hanged'.

[Douglas Keachie]

Glad we're all having a good laugh, and good stories. Now about the notion that survival is a value, how does that apply at Sandy Hook? Maybe killing 1st graders the week before Christmas trumps all the 2nd amendment fol de rah in ways the members of the NRA just don't really have the ability to comprehend?

Enough is enough, time to fix this, and from here on out, you can consider every mass shooting to be one more nail in the NRA's coffin. They're welding the manholes shut for the inaugural parade, I hope that will be enough....

[Douglas Keachie]

Did Todd run out of Viagra? I would have figured he'd of chimed in by now...

[Gregory]

Keach, a sick young man whose mom was trying to get committed went berserk. Shooting a 1st grader 11 times isn't just murder, it's a homicidal rage driven by irrational hate, whether done once or 27 times. As reported in the CS Monitor, “Connecticut's civil commitment laws are among the most restrictive in the nation when it comes to getting help for a loved one in psychiatric crisis,” said Kristina Ragosta, senior legislative and policy counsel for the Treatment Advocacy Center in Arlington, Va., which pushes to make it easier to commit people for treatment before they become dangerous."

So Connecticut, long time cradle of firearms manufacturing in the USA, made a choice to hold primary the right for the mentally ill to refuse treatment. Now, where is that "if one child is saved, how can we not do something?" when it comes to getting the ill committed, for their sake and ours? Connecticut's legislature voted down a law that would have done just that last March, and it's a tragedy that they didn't.

[Douglas Keachie]

It starts with a mom that keeps her guns lock away altogether from her obviously screwy son, instead to encouraging him to learn to shoot. The "Keep" part of the 2nd Amendment was totally ignored, and by actively taking him to the gun range, totally disrespected.

[Gregory]

There is no "keep" part of the 2nd amendment, Keach, that any court has read like you've misread it.

We don't know any details about how she kept them, but in any case, it started with his mental illness, and she was by all accounts trying to get him into treatment.

There is virtually no "gun owner control" measure that will keep guns away from a wealthy woman, and gun owners across the country are no more responsible for it than Castro Street is responsible for Jerry Sandusky.

[Douglas Keachie]

A wealthy woman who wants to hang onto her wealth, who stands to lose it if her guns go feral, she'll be much more likely to lock them up. If a backpack can become a horse, some gun victim's survivors will begin to push for the concept. I'll make sure their lawyers know about it.

[Douglas Keachie]

George Washington, on Greg's interpretation of the word "keep" as it IS found in the 3nd amendment:

"SLAP, SLAPPIY, SLAP SLAP SLAP"

"4 weeks on kitchen patrol! Mr. No Ideas at All"

[Douglas Keachie]

"2nd amendment" not 3rd

[Gregory]

There is no "keep" part of the 2nd amendment, Keach, that any court has read like you've misread it.

It's not the 10 Commandments, it's the Bill of Rights. Thou shalt keep your arms isn't to be found.

[Douglas Keachie]

You can't bear if you don't keep, so keep on truckin', Greg.

[Gregory]

Keach, keep in 18th century colonial English, meant "own", not "attached forever". Then there's the pesky fact that none of the Bill of Rights are laws that restrict people; they restrict the government, that's the whole point.

Tell me, you're still substitute teaching and you've mentioned you've discussed the Sandy Hook tragedy and guns in class. Have you discussed this "keep" theory of yours in any Nevada County public school classroom?

[Douglas Keachie]

No Greg, I thought up the theory weeks afterwards. The day of the event I was in shock, as most humans were. I will be sending The Union a very complete and concise essay, covering the topic, and including references to George's horses and backpacks case (thanks, George!). Thus, if I were to discuss it in class, it would become part of current events, so no, you can't go whiney crybaby again to either the local or state sup to yank my credential. Sorry.

[Douglas Keachie]

I'm reasonably certain, that the Founding Fathers, in writing the Second Amendment, would be appalled at the notion that a citizen would through inattention, carelessness, or sheer greed, would allow a gun in the hands of the local village idiot, and, I'm also reasonably certain, that it did not occur to them that such protections would need to be written down.

They were busy men, with a country to build, and today we have Greg, doing just the opposite. Now stop and think, do you really want to go to court and argue some more in favor of letting easier commitments to the loony bin to cut down on gun violence, instead up getting people to lock them up better? Which path, both are good, is more likely to have more of an effect sooner on reducing George's body count? Which is easier to implement? The NRA tied the hands of the Federal ATF from developing databases of either the mentally bewildered or the serial numbers of all the guns in the country. It really is time to admit the amount of grief caused by these toys in circulation is harming this country far more than any enjoyment experienced by the members of the NRA, be it fantasies of The Citadel against the USAF, or unloading a clip in Vegas, is worth.

BTW Greg, a Keep is the inner most part of a castle, the refuge of last resort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep as I learned from Heinlein back in elementary school.

[George Rebane]

DougK 740am - "...Citadel against the USAF, ..." and your ongoing and extraordinary interpretation of the 2nd Amendment's "keep" make me think that responding to your comments is an exercise in futility since you don't even acknowledge the responses.

In any event, I ask readers to note that Mr Keachie has no data whatsoever to back up his claim that "It really is time to admit the amount of grief caused by these toys in circulation is harming this country far more than any enjoyment experienced by the members of the NRA,..." His railings against the effective ownership of guns are those of a man beset by his heartfelt emotions which now serve as surrogates for reason.

[Douglas Keachie]

And of course it is perfectly reasonable and logical to assume that the 300 million handguns and long rifles in circulation will be able to put down a tyrannical government? Good one!

In case you hadn't noticed, the corporate powers have already made a total mockery of the Jeffersonian vision for this country, and all those guns have done nothing to stop it.