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29 January 2013

Comments

Ben Emery

Another Bush policy that potentially is becoming a major problem in the Obama administration if true. The Bush administration started this in 2006 by basically repealing Posse Comitatus then Obama with the NDAA 2012.

These are huge steps towards an out of control authoritarian government. I can't tell if George likes or fears this development of potential armed forces using military force against American citizens on US soil.

Jesus Betterman

Now George, that's you at your best.

George Rebane

It turns out that the Bush administration started nothing of the kind that we see in these news reports. After 9/11 Bush did renew the ability of the military to be used in-country for counter-terrorism in addition to putting down insurrections. But that was repealed as of 2008. Obama's infamous sub rosa 'midnight re-institution' of it on 31 Dec 2011 set the stage for an historic beefing up of domestic government agencies with military firearms (cynically called "Personal Defense Weapons") and combat vehicles as reported in these pages. And now we have military gunships and troops conducting unannounced and unexplained training missions in American cities.

Then with precise timing the leftwing chorus kicks in with another verse of 'It Was All Bush's Fault'. I don't think that dog will hunt.

Paul Emery

George

Documentation please of the repeal. Was it a Presidential order or did it wind it's way through congress. I need some help with this because at a quick glance I can find no verification of it being repealed .

George Rebane

PaulE 201pm -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#Recent_legislative_events

Paul Emery

Thanks George

Of course use of military force on civilians is well established. IN 1970 we had Kent State.

"The battle lasted only 13 seconds, yet it became the Dien Bien Phu of the American involvement in the Vietnam War. On May 4, 1970, on the sunny campus of Kent State University, Ohio National Guardsmen opened fire on unarmed students. Their bullets wounded nine and killed four..."

http://www.commondreams.org/views/050300-103.htm

The Wiki reference accepted on it's face value does confirm the repeal of Act but further states that under Obama's plan forces can be used as such.

"In 2011, U.S. President Barack Obama signed National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 into law. Section 1031, clause "b", article 2 defines a 'covered person', i.e., someone possibly subject to martial law, as the following: "A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces." [8]

do you have a problem with that?

George Rebane

PaulE 241pm - the cited 'covered person' is not exhaustive, and its definition can be extended to whomever the government seeks to pursue under any convenient allegation. But that's not the point of my post.

If you are sanguine about the new kinds of operations (unannounced and unexplained) being carried out over American cities and consider them to be identical to what happened at Kent State, then we have no discussion going forward. I am not.

Paul Emery

George

Indeed, they are much different than Kent State. There the government actually shot and killed student demonstrators. They were not engaging in "maneuvers"

We (KVMR) and Democracy Now have been covering these kinds of operations for years so it's not exactly new information. Here's a bit of an explanation.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/01/25/lapd-and-special-forces-conduct-military-maneuvers-in-the-skies-above-downtown-la/

George Rebane

PaulE 337pm - Yes, and LA was discussed in RR comments also, but that still isn't the point. You are here diverting to everything from the National Guard at Kent State to primacy of reports (most certainly the cited outlets could not relate the Houston and Miami experiences to anything else). And I am pointing out that these unannounced and unexplained exercises are becoming more common - along with other govt agencies beefing up.

BTW, the 'explanation' that these exercises are to train flying and deploying in urban areas is no explanation at all. Any idiot looking at the sky can tell that that is an obvious element of such training. The 'unexplained' refers to the intended purpose for such training and its timing now. Why didn't we start it ten years ago? Why are such startling training exercises carried out without notifying the news media?

But I do understand why some people are always at ease with anything the government does - explained or unexplained.

Paul Emery

George

We've been running these stories for years. Here's one that we ran from last year for example from Free Speech Radio News:

"In California, the Alameda County Sheriff may get a federal grant to purchase the high tech spying machines. But residents there are pushing back, saying the drones threaten privacy rights and add to the increasing militarization of police departments. Rachel Herzing is a member of the organization Critical Resistance which has fought against Oakland's gang injunctions. She gathered with other critics Thursday in front of Oakland’s City Hall.

“I’m very concerned that we continue to see more military equipment, more military practices, more military personnel employed in local law enforcement......”

http://fsrn.org/audio/alameda-county-residents-cite-privacy-concerns-police-abuse-officials-seek-use-domestic-drones

Gregory

Paul, the "government" didn't shoot the demonstrators, a bunch of scared, undertrained and poorly commanded weekend warriors did. Americans at the time overwhelmingly blamed the demonstrators. Me, I was still looking forward to high school someday.

I see a pattern and I suspect I'm not the only one... any wrong being perpetrated now by the current administration will ignored because of a wrong, real, imagined or inbetween, of a GOP administration in the past, even if the Congress was majority Democratic at the time.

George Rebane

PaulE 446pm - I suspect we're talking past each other again.

Paul Emery


George
I was actually agreeing with you. The Republicrats have a long tradition of using intimidation and force to maintain their power. Now they have toe technology to finish off the job. The Vietnan was and Kent State was just one example of what happens when protest against an unconstitutional and illegal war goes too far.

Ben Emery

George,
The Bush administration did start us down this road. Nothing I can find on Posse Comitatus shows that until the W administration basically repealed the act in 2006 any other administration violated the law. I know in my 40 plus years it hadn't been broken. It stood for nearly 130 years before the Bush administration ended it.

I find it very telling that you cannot admit that the Bush administration set the precedent of shredding civil liberties, federal law, and the US Constitution. They absolutely violated started us down a very very ugly road and I opposed them on those issues just as I oppose the Obama administration on the same issues. I 100% oppose the Obama administration even having the potential of using such force.
To name a few things I protested both the Bush administration and now Obama administration. In 2010 at a candidate forum/ debate in Plumas County, where McClintock decided to go to a Tea Party meeting outside of the district instead of the forum, I spoke out and called the Obama administration a war criminal administration and complicit in the Bush crimes/ war crimes by extending/ expanding them and not prosecuting the Bush administration for their crimes.

Here is a list off the top of my head.
Habeas Corpus
Indefinite Detention
Extraordinary Rendition
Torture
Drone bombing attacks
Occupation of sovereign nations
War Powers Act
Free Speech Zones
Censorship of media
Crack down on whistleblowers
Patriot Act
FISA Act
Real ID Act
Posse Comitatus

George Rebane

Re BenE's 718pm - I don't think too many people agree with you that all those claimed transgressions started under Bush2. But what I can say is that the overwhelming fraction of Americans, me included, cannot point to any diminution of our personal liberties that Bush2 carried out. I cannot say that for the tenure of our current President (and his California chorus), and he's just getting warmed up on diktats that will result in an historical reduction of things we must and cannot do.

Paul Emery

George

Possibly not all but let's start with the Patriot Act and the war in Iraq that even McClintock said was unconstitutional.

Paul Emery

Gregory

There is no doubt that the war in Vietnam was started by the Democrats but it was administered by the Republicans who declared victory and hightailed it out of there. I see little difference between the Dems and Pubs and less every day since the Pubbers are in full retreat (immigration... etc) to try to stay competitive. Even wrestlers must pretend they are in opposition or no one will but tickets.

Ben Emery

George and Paul,
That list is exactly what the Bush II administration did and almost all of it with the tactic of fear those terrorist are coming to get you, let the federal government protect you but we need you to surrender your essential civil liberties to us temporarily of course. The Enabling Act all over again. The Obama administration is worse in many cases but those who vote democratic party are now silent just as those who vote republican party were during the Bush years. It was actually a bit worse with the republicans because they challenged our love for the patriotism and told us to leave the country. That being said the Dems are catching up calling anyone who calls the Obama administration out that isn't a republican a conspiracy theorist or a someone who is uncompromising and rigid. I get it from both sides of the duopoly aisle, which tells me I am more correct than wrong.

Gregory

"I get it from both sides of the duopoly aisle, which tells me I am more correct than wrong."-Ben

Or just spectacularly wrong and just about everyone agrees.

"It was actually a bit worse with the republicans because they challenged our love for the patriotism and told us to leave the country."

Ben, that's bizarre; "the republicans" told you to leave the country? Do you have a quote for that?

Walt

So why should non-gun owners, a majority of Americans, care about maintaining the 2nd Amendment right for citizens to bear arms of any kind?

The answer is “The Battle of Athens, TN”. The Cantrell family had controlled the economy and politics of McMinn County, Tennessee since the 1930s. Paul Cantrell had been Sheriff from 1936 -1940 and in 1942 was elected to the State Senate. His chief deputy, Paul Mansfield, was subsequently elected to two terms as Sheriff. In 1946 returning WWII veterans put up a popular candidate for Sheriff. On August 1 Sheriff Mansfield and 200 “deputies” stormed the post office polling place to take control of the ballot boxes wounding an objecting observer in the process. The veterans bearing military style weapons, laid siege to the Sheriff’s office demanding return of the ballot boxes for public counting of the votes as prescribed in Tennessee law. After exchange of gun fire and blowing open the locked doors, the veterans secured the ballot boxes thereby protecting the integrity of the election. And this is precisely why all Americans should be concerned about protecting all of our right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment!

Gregory

Paul, I don't see how Boehner and the GOP forcing Reid to produce a budget after what, 3 or 4 years, is a full retreat. The GOP has the House, DEMS have the presidency and senate, they're all playing full contact politics.

Now we have a quarter of GDP shrinkage and Dem's are fighting the good fight on gun control and amnesty for illegal immigrants. I give it a year before all settle down to just the "mostly say hooray for our side" 2014 electioneering.

earlcrabb

Greg - As to Ben's 8:18 comment about the Republicans using patriotism as a club, you should have seen them at the Rood Center when a Green Party activist asked the Supes to send a letter to Bush II demanding that Congress have a say in the Gulf War debates. It was quite ugly, and somewhere I have a flyer they were handing out declaring anyone who didn't fall into lockstep with the administration was a supporter of Saddam. (If I can find it, I'll post it on my blog.)
Also, I guess you never saw all those "love it or leave it" bumper stickers that were popular during the sixties.
Having said that, the Dems have learned from the experience, since they stick the "ignorant hillbilly" label on anyone who doesn't subscribe to Team Obama's playbook. As Todd would say, "Hey, it's just hardball politics!"

Walt

Don't forget people who the Leftist media is just and extension of the White House
propaganda network. And MSNBC is back to it's same old tricks to help the anti gun Left. NOW they are messing with testimony on Capital hill.
what's a sentence or two edited out? Now ( at least then) " The gun nuts heckled the guy! in front of Congress even!"
Funny how that was NOT the case. Sorry gun haters, that trick has blown up in MSNBC's face.
So... Maybe a LIB here can fess up to the number of times MSNBC and friends have doctored tapes, and faked paperwork and documents, to further the Lefty agenda.
And just why they should be able to retain their FCC licence.

Ryan Mount

Politicking in the USA has always been nasty. Our glorious George Washington said this about Jefferson (well, Democrat-Republicans in general, but certainly aimed at the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence):

"[Y]ou could as soon scrub the blackamoor white, as to change the principles of a professed Democrat; and that he will leave nothing unattempted to overturn the Government of this Country."

And then during the 1800 election, Jefferson was accused by Adams of being "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father." Jefferson, in retaliation, hired what we'd now call a PR person. This PR person went on to convince the public that John Adams was intent on attacking France.

Later, just as today in American politics (think: Dick Morris to Clinton), this PR person "broke" the "story" that Jefferson had 5 kids with his slave Sally Hemings in, of all places, France.

Walt

OHHHH BOY!!! Can LIBS spin things like a top?
Get a load of this about gun crime in "O"'s back yard.

CHICAGO (Sun-Times Media Wire) -
Chicago's top cop said the city's deadly weekend wasn't as bad as it seems when compared to last year.

There were seven murders from gunshots and other causes from 6 p.m. Friday until 12:01 a.m. Monday , according to the police department. Altogether, the city saw 10 shootings during that period, including victims who were wounded but did not die.

"That's just not the way those numbers usually play out," Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said Tuesday, adding that as of Friday afternoon the murder rate had been down nearly 30 percent for the month when compared to last year. He said there had been 13 fewer shootings last week compared to the same week in 2012.

Is he getting his material from the AGW kooks?

Ben Emery

RL,
I was part of that group of Greens who worked on it. No where to the levels Kent, Beth, Doug, John ect... but I went to some of those meetings and worked on it but that document was my introduction to the Nevada County Greens. RIP Kent Smith.
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/03/10/18070421.php

Greg,
You must live in a complete bubble or have a very short memory my friend. Here is a perfect example of what was going on during the early years of the illegal invasion. I suggest you watch the film "Shut Up & Sing" or at least watch the trailer for it
Shut Up & Sing trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QKD40HIeKI

During a Nevada County Peace Center rally we marched through downtown GV on the first or second anniversary of our illegal invasion/ occupation of Iraq and we were verbally assaulted with the threat of violence and were told we hate America and to move to France. I cleaned up the language a great deal. What I would say the number of ignorant fools who claim- we should shut up and thank the military for securing our freedom of speech- were a very small minority and a vast majority of people who might of disagreed with our position disagreed in a polite manner.

PS
We were and still are correct


Walt

LOL Ben,, Your complaining about "verbal assaults" from " the Right"?
Where were you when the Tea Party people were vilified in our local parades?
From shouts of hate to the "finger". ( Yaaaa,,,, we see Lefty (ha) tolerance ( or lack there of,,, all the time)
Illegal war? Do a little digging of rules of a "cease fire".
We are still under those rules of war with N. Korea. technically we are still "at war".
Just because we haven't exchanged gun fire for a long time, in no way makes the war over.

The same rules apply to Iraq. Iraq NEVER signed the surrender papers. a " ceasefire" was in place. ANY President could have sent troops back into battle without Congressional approval.
Yes, If "O" wanted to he could go into N.Korea at ANY time.
If I'm wrong,,, show me the laws. Show me the documentation.
Illegal war? Go pound sand....

Paul Emery

So quite simply Walt you believe the war in Iraq to be constitutional yes or no.

Walt

YUP! Even that turncoat ( Repub now LIB) Collen Powell
thinks so to this day.
Good thing you weren't in Iraq when Saddam gassed his own people.
Never mind the rest of the human rights violations that went on there.( twice)
We would have only had to have been there ONCE id our military was allowed to finish the job. But Lilly livered LIBS demanded and end.( and got it)
But "O"'s involvement in these "non wars" is fine and dandy.( Syria?)
What "O" is doing is not much more than a gang style " drive by" ( or fly by in this case)shootings. Now OUR weapons are turning up in Syria. ( Iran Contra all over again?)
But not a peep out of LIBS.

Speaking of the Constitution,,, LIBS don't care for it vary much. Let alone defend it.
And NOW you decide to bring it up????

Walt

Speaking of war in the great sand box, we are shipping new F16s to Egypt.
THEY are no friend of ours anymore. So in essence, we are arming our enemy.
Just what kind of a bonehead move is that? ( if not criminal) Hopefully someone had the good sense to add a remote destruct charge to all the planes, so if and when we come face to face with our own hardware we can take care of that little problem,
since "O"and CO. love their new push button war.

George Rebane

re Walt's 518pm - the liberal elites of the country are definitely doubling down on their program to abrogate the Constitution. Seidman is now making regular appearances on the lamestream.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/01/the-great-divide-we-dont-need-no-stinking-constitution.html

Walt

I find it comical that our far Leftys only bring up Constitution when they think
it fits their purpose of the moment.
Paul just left out their biggest BS claim of the war. " free oil" or "war for oil".
Never mind that we didn't get one drop of that "free oil".

I said this once and I will say it again. ( you might remember this.. LOL)
Some of our LIBS remind me of Alzheimer's and dementia patients (oooppsss,, victims... we know how they like the word victim when applied to them)

Walt

Paul,,, Do you remember that BOTH houses voted IN FAVOR for armed action known as the Gulf war? BY DEFFONITION ,,, the war was CONSTITUTIONAL. The war ends when surrender papers are signed. ( ask Japan about that)

You DO know what Jihad means,, don't you? ( holy war if ya' don't)
Think "our enemy" believes that war is over? Think they are done trying to acquire
nukes, poison gas, viral agents? HHuummmm??? You don't think they won't try and use them HERE?
So DO tell.. Just where would you care to do the fighting? Here in our own streets, or keep the carnage in their own front yard?

WE are at war with religious lunatics that have nothing better to do than kill people all in the name of religion. ( tolerant my ass) Get used to it.

BTW,, Since "O" took office the Middle East is SO much better. He got the Nobel peace prize in advance because of his great "uniting" skills. And how did that work out?
He needs to give it back. The money too.. With interest. ( I know... good luck)

Maybe "O" is the 12TH Imam we have been warned about.

Gregory

RL, the claim from Ben was "the republicans" told him to leave the country. That's quite a bit different than 'some guys on the street I figured were probably republican' thought he should leave the country. And regarding the '60's "Love it or leave it/Change it or lose it" bumpersticker war, my grampa Joe, the Frisco native brewer's union secretary, was Democrat through and through, and he also thought the commie bastards should leave the country, or at least shut up. I remember him asking some partygoers to leave his house after they began singing the Internationale after more than a few drinks... guess they thought the Brewers were like the Longshoremen.

Ben, I attended one of the so called "Peace Vigils" by the "Peace Center" and saw more hate in one place than I ever had before, from the attendees.

Paul, if Gulf War part un was constitutional, so was Gulf War part deux. Legally, they were one and the same, separated only by a cease fire whose conditions, including that they help *prove* there were no WMD's, were not met, and both parts were authorized by Congress, though not in the way I would prefer.

Of all the political parties in the US, only Peace & Freedom and Libertarian parties actively protested Part Un. If you weren't there, don't bitch.


Walt

The Libs may not have heard this. Israel has done what was needed
today. They hit two targets in Syria. One was a convoy of weapons
headed for Lebanon. Who the hell knows what was in those trucks.
Chemical weapons maybe?
So who will "O" condemn? Israel for a "senseless attack"? Or the weapons smugglers.? (naaaa)
You can bet "O" acted like a raped rooster when he got the news. " How dare they act without MY permission. I needed time to tell Syria!"
No way did Israel tell the W.H. about this. They learned their lesson when "O" and Co. ratted them out about an attack on the Iran nuke facility.

Walt

BTW,, a little off topic,(so what else is new? lol) But I heard a strange sheriff dispatch last evening. They needed an officer to respond to the outside of the jail, for a naked mane causing a disturbance.( full nutjob mode I guess) With that said,, Anyone seen Keach???

Paul Emery

Walt

Don't waste gas on defending your position on the constitutionality of the war in Iraq. You are on record on that and nothing else needs to be said. You are a genetic Republican for sure which disqualifies you from independent thinking. Your view is decidedly different from Libertarians such as Ron Paul or even conservative Republican Tom McClintock who believe otherwise. War was never declared so how can there be a surrender? . The joke is that you claimed we had authority to go to war to defend UN mandates. To use that justification is funny beyond belief on this blog.

Yes, just a reminder that we sold Saddam the materials to make poison gas and made no effort to stop him when he gassed the Kurds because it served our strategic interests at the time.

Gregory

I suppose you believe that the War Powers Act provides the Constitutional cover to justify wars such as in Iraq, Vietnam , and even Grenada. I disagree with that premise. Once again I revert to Ron Paul on his brilliant essay "Why We Fight"

"Today too many Americans support, at least in the early stages, the use of force to spread our message of hope and freedom. They too often are confused by the rhetoric that our armies are needed to spread American goodness. Using force injudiciously, instead of spreading the worthy message of American freedom through peaceful means, antagonizes our enemies, alienates our allies, and threatens personal liberties here at home while burdening our economy."


http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul274.html


Gregory

Paul, I was referring to constitutional fig leaves, not good justifications and I was the one who was actually listening to Ron Paul when the first Gulf War was approaching. Literally, just a few feet away, back when $150 would buy a nice reception invite :)

Walt

Paul. As far as I am concerned, you can bitch and make any "claim"
you like at this point. ( You can kiss the 1ST for that ability)

No,, I'm not a "Repub". I am a Conservative. BIG difference.
And " I'm on record"? LOL!!!!

UN??? Really?? You want to go there? Remember when "O" went to the UN
for his little games when he couldn't get things through Congress? He(we) doesn't
answer to the UN OR seek permission from the UN. And in MY opinion, WE are the UN.
The UN is funded mostly by us, manned by us, and armed by us.
The UN is worthless at this point. Nutless at best. UN peacekeepers are used as target practice on a regular basis and nothing is done about it.

I don't have much respect for our local " UN club". I loaned them some documents, papers, and personal family artifacts directly related to the forming of the UN, and have refused to return them. ( Yes, I even made them sign a letter to the fact that the items were on LOAN.) Maybe I should lay claim to the "UN table" at the cultural center? Maybe that would get their attention. ( Yes, I'm still pissed after all this time)

Ben Emery

Hey Greg,
"The Obama administration is worse in many cases but those who vote democratic party are now silent just as those who vote republican party were during the Bush years. It was actually a bit worse with the republicans because they challenged our love for the patriotism and told us to leave the country." It should read they challenged our patriotism.

Having to take things out of context means you're wrong and are scrambling. You're wrong, admit it. You asked for documentation of people telling anti war protesters they don't love their country and to leave it. I believe calling those who criticized Bush and opposed the invasion traitors and telling them to move to France is a perfect example of my claim. Also in the link a person speaking on the radio making the statement to strap them(dixie chicks) to a bomb and drop them on Baghdad.

But here is another statement by Republican Attorney General John Ashcroft if you want a direct representative of the Bush administration "Critics who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve,"

In political speak this means- those who fight the Bush administration policies on the grounds of losing civil liberties are aiding terrorist or calling them traitors.

Greg it is very disappointing to see you become one of the biggest Bush/ Republican apologists when you used to proudly fly the flag of not being a republican. So sad.

Gregory

Ben, you are nearly as bad as Keachie when it comes to inventing positions and attributing them to me.

I have no idea who you were trying to quote above, and perhaps if you can dig up a quote of mine that is a Bush apologism, I'd have a clue what you're on about this time but in general, refusing to hold my breath till I turn blue like you are isn't being an apologist.

Ben Emery

Paul,
What our defenders of oppression and tyranny fail to recognize the Bush administration was obligated to return to the Security Council a second time, which did not happen. On September 15, 2004 UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3661134.stm

Ben Emery

Greg,
So so sad.

Walt

That's a good LIB Ben. Tow the party line at all costs.( your little dig about being a apologist)

You think the UN is so great? Dad did too at it's conception, and had some input in it's creation. So yes. I have a little knowledge of what the UN was supposed to be. That's NOT what it is today. It's a joke.

You know those guys that politicians get advice from that you NEVER hear about?
Pops was one of them. That's why I have a unique perspective on politics.
How influential was he? Here is a hint. I have one of two Presidential inauguration
invitations TO the W.H. from two separate Presidents.
I will never fill his shoes in the political arena, I just use what I learned, my own way.
I sure wish I had his contacts though. ( too bad most are long dead. Lucky you)

BTW,, tell your pals in the local "UN club" I want those items returned. They should know what your talking about.

Walt

Speaking of "illegal wars" ( uh,, Paul and Ben, )
Or is it only conflicts that start when a Repub. is
at the helm? Bush took his case to Congress. As he should have.
Here is what "O" did with Libya.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/how-obama-ignored-congress-and-misled-america-on-war-in-libya/262299/

Now we are arming our enemy with f16s. OH JOY!.

Gregory

Ben, Kofi Annan's son was one of the folks who got Oil For Palaces kickbacks. The UN had no moral authority by then on Iraq as there were British, French, Russian and (iirc) Chinese ministers (ie the Security Council) on the take, while it was US and British pilots getting shot at that were keeping a lid on Baathist belligerence towards Shia and Kurds.

I tend to blame the UN for allowing Oil for Food to become a bigger fraud than Enron and for Bush I for (1) getting the US involved, even worse, (2) not finishing the job and (3) trusting the UN to take over.

Gregory

Ben 8:27PM

So funny that you aren't coming up with anything rational to say! String some real facts together rather than just spouting the same old tymey regressive progressive religion that you've been leaning on.

JesusBetterman

I was busy protecting students at our local schools, while the regular teachers took in-services, covering an intro to Common Core, not at jail. So where was everyone, I expected many of you at the Agenda 21 talk at the Elk's Lodge? You missed enlightenment.


As for Lovin' it : http://nowasmuchasever.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/the-hard-hat-riot-america-love-it-or-leave-it/

Paul Emery

So lets see Walt. You are a "conservative " but certainly not of the same ilk as Ron Paul or Tom McClintock. What is the difference in your view in your obviously contrasting conservative views as applied to the war in Iraq ?

JesusBetterman

For the slackers that missed the meeting: http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/sets/72157632656292702/detail/

Brad Croul

Top Five Reasons the Black Helicopters are flying over Texas and Florida,

5.  Jeb and George are preparing to intimidate voters going to the poles during the next election.

4. Preparations for the next wave of Cuban and Mexican immigrants.

3. Training drills for possible gun show rebellions when Bubba and Gator find out they have to submit to a background check, anal probe, or some other indignation the libs have cooked up.

2.  Preparing for an uprising if Florida and Texas announce a plan to collect taxes on income.

And, the number one reason the Black Helicopters are flying,

1. Obama just doesn't trust Southerners.

Michael Anderson

"intimidate voters going to the poles"

As in pole dancing?

Brad Croul

No, North and South Poles.
Polls...
Thanks!

Joe Koyote

One reason why some government regulation is needed and perhaps why the poles are melting: On a scale of 1-500, the air pollution in Bejing was 758 the other day, prompting the government to urge people to stay indoors. Is foul air a fair trade for economic success?

Walt

On that note Joe, maybe all our " earth first(ers)" need to move to China and set up shop.

That's where the dirty air really is. Have at it.

Walt

Paul...,,, In the words of Hilary. "Just what the Hell difference does it make?!"

Come on ya' old hippy,, your gripe is a decade too late. ( but GITOMO is still open, Terrorists have yet to see a court room, and we are still waiting for the first shipment of that "free oil".)

Paul Emery

Oh yes oil Walt. The oil that Rumsfeld said was going to pay for the war. Two trillion dollars later we are still paying for it. That's why this is still a contemporary issue.

" The bulk of the funds for Iraq's reconstruction will come from Iraqis," explained Rumsfeld, who was accompanied at the briefing by Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Iraqis will pay for the rebuilding of their country, the defense secretary noted, through oil revenues, recovered assets, international trade, direct foreign investments and contributions from the international community. "

http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=28388

Walt

LOL Paul,, As usual we got stiffed by the Middle East. As I remember it was the anti war, anti oil Left that pissed and moaned about it. ( "war for oil" BS)
Leftys were all behind "the forgiveness of debt" by Middle East countries.

At this point your better off trying to rewrite history to make Lincoln
a registered Democrat. Some city bred LIBS will actually believe that.

Now that the news about Sen.Perv Menendez is getting the attention it deserves,
care to spout off why he should still be sitting in the chair on the Senate floor, instead of occupying a jail cell. If it was you or me, that's just where we would be. But NOOOooo. Since he's a Progressive in good standing, he has had a pass all this time. The news of this is FAR from old. It got swept under the rug. Now the day of reckoning is here.
But I'm sure good Libs like yourself will start the ball rolling and protect him at all costs, and attack the ones that broke the story.

That is just the start of the domino chain. The economy is about to implode with the monetary monkey business.
Obummercaretax is running up the cost of ANY heath care,( So much for bringing the cost down.) The poor unions that helped push the BS Bill, are now feeling the bite since their waver has expired.( They think that waver was permanent??)
Now they want another. ( then where is mine?)
Everything LIB is coming down around your ears, as Conservatives ( like myself) predicted.

We see jobs are far from front and center which "O" stumped on.
HELL! Everything "O" used to buy votes is on the back burner.
That " jobs council" he put together, and NEVER listened too in the first place, has been fired. and disbanded.

Sorry my pony tailed friend, it time to get back to current events, instead of
trying to live in the past about the Gulf war. But just one more thing about the Gulf. That part of the world has gone to crap since "O" took office.
"O" sure did a GREAT job with Egypt. " We don't need to worry about the Muslim Bro hood. they have no control or power". And just how did that work out?
They Guy "O" helped into power there sure isn't a friend of ours. And now we are sending them tanks (M1A2)and F16s. Such a smart move... Don't ya' think?

Walt

Damn.. I must be getting old. I forgot all about those WMD's
that we supposedly couldn't find. They went to Syria. Convoy after convoy.
that was before our military was allowed to do a damned thing.

And no nuke material in Iraq at the time? Your wrong on that too.
My renter was there doing the " clean up", and now is just about dead
from cancers that can ONLY be caused by nuke material.( not classified info)
I will believe HIM over you any day of the week.
What else I have heard will remain untold. A family member's clearance level
is going up. ( there is PLENTY I would love to cram down a LIBS throat. But I must leave it at that.)

JesusBetterman

We never used depleted uranium in Iraq, now did we, Walt, and the dust from those could never have affected him, even if we did, right?

I been doing some looking, and you know it is funny, I've never been able to find real news stories of an intruder being shotup by an AR-15? You'd think it would make front page news, especially if the homeowner pumped 30 rounds into him.

JesusBetterman

If it takes you 30 rounds to take out a couple of intruders, you probably can't shot straight, and are more of a danger to your neighbors than the burglars.

Gregory

Walt, while Iraq was very definitely shopping for uranium in Niger, there was no evidence that they had it yet, and the Bush state of the union address was literally correct: British intelligence believed the above.

Hell Hath Frozen Over, Keachie made a point at 4PM. at least in the first sentence. Beat me to the post by moments...

Battlefield exposure to radioactive material is something that ain't getting talked about much, as US anti tank rounds contain depleted uranium because of its very high mass make them more penetrating. Your renter's illness might be related to those.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Gulf_War_syndrome_and_soldier_complaints

Gregory

Keach, if five armed druggies showed up at your place thinking you had forty or fifty kilos ready to go, how many rounds would you want to have handy?

JesusBetterman

Novel! Keachie and Greg, typing at the same time, unaware of the other, agree!

BTW Walt, glad you admit that radioactive particles can be dangerous. The amount of radiation they emit is far less than background radiation, but, because they lodge in one spot, radioactive particles hammer the same nearby cells over and over again, until they are weakened and become cancerous. John Goffman did the original studies for the AEC, and found what the AEC didn't want to know. They shut him down, had him take all his data papers home, and then his garage "mysteriously" caught fire.

BTW, Europe has the same games we have, yet we have 62 mass shooting over the last 30 years, and Europe's had one.

JesusBetterman

Added one too many "f's" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gofman He heard this first hand, in his livingroom, as my ex father in law (first wife) was one of his good friends.

JesusBetterman

"I heard this first hand."

I'm disappearing down the canyon if I see overwhelming force. They'll kill themselves if they follow. But once again, where, other than on a pot farm, do you find AR-15 vs AR-15? One bank robbery in LA, where else?

George Rebane

Re JesusB 400pm - people familiar with firearms, especially those who would own the AR type semi-autos, would not consider the AR to be the ready weapon to repel intruders inside a house. They would either have a handgun or a 12-gauge shotgun (preferably a pump with a minimum 20" barrel) for such purposes.

re his 428pm - relevance to gun control issue?

JesusBetterman

Well I gues that blows the "need" issue for AR-15, or reduces it to just going up against the M16's of the rogue government.

Gregory

"BTW, Europe has the same games we have, yet we have 62 mass shooting over the last 30 years, and Europe's had one."

Tell that to the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians.


If the 2nd Amendment was treated like derived abortion rights and Obamacare, the Feds would be forcing people to accept their Obama "Personal Defense Weapon" with 30 round magazines unless you could prove you were a felon or mentally ill.

Walt

The AR10 is a long range shooter. If I think something (or someone) is coming
to do harm, I can hold them off from a distance. If they get by that, and close range is the next option, a Desert Eagle .357 is next up to bat. ( ranged for 50 yards) Then the shotgun bats clean up. Mine is set up with the first shell being bird shot, and it works it's way down to a slug.(or two)

With your C.S.S. ,, may I suggest just a coach gun Doug? That's about all the time you would have. Since your a LIB and demand those low capacity weapons, practice what ya' preach.

Paul Emery

Walt

Don't preach to me about Obama's next four years. I didn't vote for him

Can you show me documentation about the WMD's going to Syria? I suspect it's just a figment of your imagination because no one has been able to prove it. You do have a tenancy to make things up to fit your pro Republican slant.
As long as we're paying for the war in Iraq it is a contemporary issue. Your hero Bush 2 passed a couple of trillion on to future generations along with 5000 dead Americans and thousands of injured veterans. All that for what? As long as they are alive responsibility for this will be an open question. You can't sweep it away as history as much as you like. Even Rumsfelt admitted there were no WMD's and that they were the main reason for the war.

"If the Bush administration had known there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, it probably wouldn't have decided to invade in 2003, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in an interview broadcast Sunday.

Speaking on CNN's "State of the Union" program, Rumsfeld noted there were multiple reasons for attacking Iraq and ousting Saddam Hussein from power.

However, intelligence reports -- now shown to have been false -- that Iraq possessed WMDs were the main reason for going in, Rumsfeld said.

"No question it was the big one," he said. Asked if the United States would not have invaded if the administration hadn't believed Iraq had the weapons of mass destruction, Rumsfeld said: "I think that's probably right."

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-20/politics/rumsfeld.interview_1_defense-secretary-donald-rumsfeld-obama-administration-curveball?_s=PM:POLITICS

Walt

Contrary to popular belief Yellow cake was found in Iraq.
So was some chemical weapons, ( in various forms and stages)
There was a reason for the "non disclosure", and it outweighed
political "brownie points".
There were many terrorist attempts that were NEVER reported as well.
There was a lot going on that we will NEVER hear about. But since
we didn't ( and probably wont) hear about it from the press, it didn't happen
in your minds. There is crap that went on back in WWII that's still "top secret"
and matters of national security. Same for Korea, and Vietnam. ALL still "classified".
And you don't think the same game of hide the goods didn't happen with the Gulf war? There is PLENTY we don't know. But just because "the press says so" is far from fact and reality.
There are things that happened and saw, when I was in the service I still can't disclose today.
Nope,, we don't know the half of it. But if you want to believe the media is the know all, tell all, that your choice. ( and you would be wrong.)

Walt

Now lets get into what we do have and don't field. ( put into use)
We had an airborne laser. ( maybe we still do) it was tested and proven
to work WAY back in the 80's. Then they ( military) installed the system
on a 747-400. All that money thrown down a rat hole. That 747 has been stripped, and scrapped. Now the money is being spent to try and "shrink" the system. MORE good money gone.
OBL could have been a charcoal briquette with a singed turban a long time ago
if we chose too.

Optic weapons are reality, but somehow Hellfire missiles on a drone is the tool of choice.

So the real question is,, have we used them? Did those N. Korean missiles really fail? Just because "the media" didn't report it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, or exists. the same goes for what or wasn't "found" in the Gulf war.
We are fed the information they "allow" us to choke down.

Speaking of what the media "reports",,, NBC doctors another tape for maximum Libby anti gun effect. And once again it blew up in their face.
So what's the doctored tape count from LIB media now? 4?? maybe 5?

n

BTW, Europe has the same games we have, yet we have 62 mass shooting over the last 30 years, and Europe's had one......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers#Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers#School_massacres

JesusBetterman

Chart indicates several things. It does NOT indicate the means of death. Most of the school killers commit suicide. Makes me wonder who put these lists together, No indexing by date or number of killings. Odd...

You get one dynamited school ov the last 150 years since the invention of dynamite. How many shooting sprees with AR-15's and Glocks since their invention. Dynamite seems to be much more effective than a whole arsenal of guns. Dynamite's Not popular, is it? It is regulated, but if you were determined, you could make it or an ammonia device. But I guess killing is not the main objective, it really a matter of making other people experience pain where you can see it. That appears to be something that makes guns special, and the near autofire weapons makes it easy to inflict and see it. Some sort of revenge/compensation thing, I guess. I know this is sick, but it matches reality's numbers, in re shoot massacres.

A side note on radioactivity:


MadamCuriesNotebooks copy

Paul Emery

Walt

You're losing it for sure with your windmilling. Yes, anything that wasn't reported in the media or through the government is possible. The question is how do you know these things (yellow cake-wmd's to Syria etc.." that no one else accepts. Are you some kind of soothsayer we are supposed to believe because you are connected to some mythic source of truth? What was the reason for the "non disclosure" and who directed it? So many questions....

So even Rumsfeld's admission that there were no WMD's is not enough for you.

The trillions bucks bill and thousands of or war wounded and 5000 dead are waiting for your wisdom to reveal itself

Walt

Doug. Your starting to sound like one of those people
the "experts" have told us to be on the look out for.
And yet, you still possess firearms. Somehow martyrdom
is within your realm of thinking.

Now that some so called preper has snapped and is holding a child hostage
in a bunker, the next step is to outlaw bunkers. Maybe even a next step further?
Outlaw hording as some may want to call it? "There oughta be a law" right Doug?

JesusBetterman

Your Archie Bunker style thinking is not outlawed, Walt, but really, in today's world?

Walt

What ever Paul,,, Your going to believe whatever you care too.

You have been spoon fed the problem from Lefty media, who will only
dig for info that will make the Right side of the isle look bad, and
not report on anything that may be remotely positive. This is nothing new.
If anything, it's gotten worse in a short period of time.
Just like the Sen. Perv coverage. The LIB news networks have not really said a word about it. Now just what do you think if that guy had an "R" next to his name? And this Sen. likes little girls. And he's not behind bars yet?

Walt

Here is something the media didn't tell you back when it happened.
On and near the base I was stationed, there was some good old spying
going on. One of the men from my unit was used as bait to try and catch
the spook.
Nope,, we don't hear about things like that.

JesusBetterman

Walt:

NeilDeGrasseTyson copy

The Iraqi people would have had a real interest in what Saddam was up to, if he had been up to anything. Probably more Betty Crocker yellow cake mix in Iraq than anything else.

Walt

Since we didn't do squat about the last 911 attack, the terrorists balls
are growing a little bigger I fear. A new attack threat has been leveled.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/30/inside-the-ring-new-al-qaeda-threat/

And didn't "O" state the "war on terror is over"? I see no one told aL qaeda
that, or they didn't get the memo.

Funny.... We were just talking about that the other day....

JesusBetterman

So, Walt, what is your answer to this threat which is directed at the entire planet except Antarctica. Buy more AR-15's and hand them out to whom, like candy?

“The answer for it, in short: The coming strikes by al Qaeda, with God’s Might, will be in the heart of the land of nonbelief, America, and in France, Denmark, other countries in Europe, in the countries that helped and are helping France, and in other places that shall be named by al Qaeda at other times,” the threat states.

The attacks will be “strong, serious, alarming, earth-shattering, shocking and terrifying.”

Or should we stop the drone strikes? Really Walt, you have all the answers, please tell.

JesusBetterman

Back on the gun testimony in Wash DC, looks like nobody can find home invaders repelled by AR-15:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJfmONl-9_Y

Gerry Fedor

I find it rather "ironic" that Walt want's to complain about how "those darn leftist and how they want to remove guns from Patriot's like me" when we all know that this is nothing more than a smokescreen.

I find it rather "interesting" that there is now talk among the right to try to pass the following as a "replacement to the 2nd amendment":

---------------------------------------------
Recognizing that the need to arm the populace as a militia is no longer of much concern, but also realizing that firearms are a part of our history and culture and are used by many for both personal defense and sport, this site has proposed a new 2nd Amendment — an amendment to replace the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution. This proposed text is offered as a way to spark discussion of the topic.

Section 1. The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

Section 2. The right of the people to keep arms reasonable for hunting, sport, collecting, and personal defense shall not be infringed.

Section 3. Restrictions of arms must be found to be reasonable under Section 2 by a two-thirds vote of Congress in two consecutive sessions of Congress before they can be forwarded to the President for approval.

------------------------------------------------------

These people are so far and out of touch with the majority of American's, that they feel the American public would believe their cry's and support something like this?

If you don't think that the wacko's are going to use this as a war cry then we all need to learn just how paranoid they really are!

Gregory

Gerry, you're going to have to drive down the NRA poll numbers before you get the 2nd watered down:

"NRA Has 54% Favorable Image in U.S."
http://www.gallup.com/poll/159578/nra-favorable-image.aspx

Good luck, I think that's above President Obama's numbers at the moment.

Regarding that proposed 2nd, it was apparently not meant as a serious proposal just for discussion by a guy at one website, no political capital was expended by anyone pushing it and dates from before the SCOTUS incorporated the 2nd into the 14th by McDonald v. Chicago, applying it to the states. Now that incorporation is settled law, don't expect anyone to pay it (or anything like it) any attention:
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

Gregory

Here you go, Keach, an AR-15 owned by a Texas sheriff used by his 15 year old son to repel a couple of home invaders when he was home alone with his younger sister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-q2zHIovOE&feature=player_embedded

Just because MSNBC couldn't find one doesn't mean they don't exist. They might not be trying very hard.

Jesus Betterman

All it takes to knock the NRA numbers down is enough citizens ticked off enough to drive the numbers of members and cash stash of the various groups on this list http://patriotaction.net/group/iresistguncontrol/forum/topic/show?id=2600775:Topic:6051769&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_topic

I would imagine that each mass shooting boosts those numbers on a quarterly basis.

Jesus Betterman

Greg's numbers were apparently generated shortly after Sandy Hook, most recent date mentioned is December 22, 2012. At this point, ancient history.

Jesus Betterman

Took you side long enough to find it. Of course there was nothing in the vicinity that might have become collateral damage, now was there? I I lived across the street, I'd be happier if he'd been using a shotgun. Now, how many more can you find, since that one was so easy for you, noting your taunting of MSNBC. "not trying very hard"? Since you are so talented, let's find 20 more.

Gregory

"Took you [sic] side long enough to find it."

A minute of my time is long? For that matter, it was found the moment that reporter was on the scene. Keach, you're confusing the MSNBC Kabuki with reality.

Face it, the 2nd will remain intact and incorporated into the 14th. The last tragedy has resulted in new legislation here and there, and that will keep constitutional lawyers busy in sorting out what's acceptable and what isn't.

Have you figured out the complexity of building a calorimeter large enough to hold the Earth yet?

Jesus Betterman

Have you figured out that the biophere is not the entire planet?

Gregory

LOL, OK, have you figured out how to build a calorimeter large enough to hold the biosphere and still let it interact with the rest of the planet and the rest of the universe?

The IPCC is still waiting for you to tell it how to get it right! :)

George Rebane

A relevant side observation. When someone's point is countered, and the point is subsequently remade as if it were not countered, why bother to respond to that person? Example: JesusB 400pm, GeoR 433pm, JesusB 1237am.

Paul Emery

Gregory | 01 February 2013 at 06:58 AM

I'm sure if you look far enough you can find examples of home invaders repelled with a fork.

Oh, here's one.

"Margaret Jackson may be a 73-year-old grandmother, but she's no pushover.

Just ask the guy who attempted a home invasion -- she stabbed him with a big barbecue fork."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/22/margaret-jackson-stabs-thief-with-bbq-fork_n_1822458.html

George Rebane

In debates like this on gun control, the almost entirely unreported cases of self-defense and crime prevention that timely brandishing of guns by intended victims is huge. In my life this has occurred twice while we lived in soCal. Here's an unlikely source of some numbers on this phenomenon.
http://rense.com/general76/univ.htm

Ben Emery

Just to put an exclamation on the the illegal Iraq invasion/ occupation, it was planned long before 9/11 happened. Here are three examples. The other thing to accept is every reason for justifying invading Iraq turned out to be false or wrong. It doesn't matter because the point was to get into Iraq no matter what because once we were there we were going to create a free market paradise. Yet another example of free market theology failures, yes theological. Free Marketeers have taken their belief into the religious realm since there is no example of it working but their faith is absolute.

1998 Letter to President Clinton by a number of people who would eventually be in or advisers to W Bush administration
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

2000 George W Bush talking about being commander-in-chief (meaning war time President)
http://www.russbaker.com/archives/Guerrilla%20News%20Network%20-%20Bush.htm

2001 Cheney's Secret Energy Task Force dividing up the country of Iraq in 2001
http://www.judicialwatch.org/bulletins/maps-and-charts-of-iraqi-oil-fields/

Ben Emery

On guns and second amendment nobody wants to talk about the failures of society/ culture that create the circumstances of mentally ill person would not only feel but actually act on such desperate and destructive thoughts/ feelings. I think the gun debate is a waste of time if we don't address these other issues at the same time.
We cannot control every variable but what we can do is identify these variables and their indicators/ symptoms to try and combat violent crime at all levels not just at the pulling of a trigger.

Jesus Betterman

So the score is now one (1) Home Invaders Shot vs ??? school inhabitants shot? And gee, we're only i the first quarter of the 21st century? Lots of game time left for the Home Invaders side to play "catch up." But watch out for those collated damage penalties. (posted Saturday of Super Bowl weekend)

Relatively speaking, I suspect that anything much below two miles of crust can be ignored for all practical purposes. If it ever did start to change in any significant way, then the magma would have hit the meteor/planetesimals, and the lights go off and out for good.

So, as I pointed out way back when, both sides need far more measuring points than they currently have, and a sound way of coming up with numbers that are real.

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