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17 January 2013

Comments

Douglas Keachie

Gun Safety is just the same as Pro Life, get used to it. Co-opting names is part of the game. Big Oil owns www.anwr.org, which you might think would belong to the Sierra Club.

It just takes one signature on a $100,000 check to get any politicians attention.

George Rebane

DougK 1007am - Well maybe. The Pro Life guys are pro life. But the Gun Safety people are all for banning civilian firearms. Listening to them, they don't know jack about firearms, let alone anything about the safe use of such things. But they do know how to pick a name that impresses those equally ignorant.

Videodrone


having read several different English translations of the Koran I understand the concept of Al-taqiyya - to which my response is lan astaslem (I will not surrender/I will not submit)

Hillery! I expect will do a repeat performance regarding the "lost FBI records & Rose law firm billing records" as in "I don't recall"

"Assault rifle" Please define

hint, I have a Mini-14 and Mini-30 - with the wood stocks they are "OK" (or were under the Clinton "Assault weapon ban") but put them in a different stock (remove one screw) either a "Bullpup" wood stock or the really scary black stock with a pistol grip and Picatinny rails - and my response to those that think I should not have them is ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Douglas Keachie

They do apparently concentrate on safety in regards coping with people who are out of control and have gained access to firearms. You have a limited view of what "gun safety" entails. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matt-hadro/2013/01/10/fareed-zakaria-begs-courage-lawmakers-enact-gun-control

Douglas Keachie

Obviously the Lanza mom understood ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ to mean, "here, it's yours, you crazy son of abitch."

Gregory

The NRA is the oldest and largest gun safety organization in the country. I might still be a member if I wasn't so tired of getting Republican mailers, and pissed that the NRA wouldn't give Libertarian candidates on the ballot even a grudging approval despite being more solidly for the 2nd amendment than Republicans in general, and that's without getting any NRA money.

While there was a fully automatic, select fire Mini-14 Ruger (in other words, a bona fide "assault rifle") made for the military (I think the Navy bought some) with a pistol grip folding stock, no civilian Mini-14 has ever been deemed an "assault weapon", a wonderfully phony classification dreamed up by the Handgun Control/Brady Center Bunch, that helped along the old DiFi "Assault Weapons Ban". Every news story about "Assault Weapons" showed automatic rates of fire that no AR-15 could match because the human trigger finger just can't pull through at a 500Hz rate. It was sold to the public with false advertising, but the Congress let it sunset when it became clear it did *nothing* to curb crime.

Now we have a fresh mental health tragedy and the same ineffective lawful gun owner controls being sold by purely emotional appeals. "Let no crisis go to waste."

Videodrone

Ah, no Doug - he shot his mother in cold blood and stole the weapons

and I should listen to a known Plagiarizer - why?

Ken Jones

George wrote: "But the Gun Safety people are all for banning civilian firearms."
Hardly George, nice wide brush you paint with. I consider myself a gun safety person and I have no desire in banning civilian firearms. There may be some firearms I believe belong to the military and not in a home. Distinct difference. And I know many gun safety people that feel the same way. But I do promote the current conversation and some controls. Saying we are all for banning firearms creates division and doesn't promote a rational conversation.

Videodrone

again Ken,

please tell me the differentiating characteristics between your "approved" firearms and those that only should be military

and "Scary looking" does not qualify

Douglas Keachie

His mom didn't keep them locked up. She was asleep when he shot her. Until proven otherwise, she left them out where he could just walk off with them. He lived in the same house. Are you saying he plagiarized her guns? What's that supposed to mean?

Gregory

"There may be some firearms I believe belong to the military and not in a home."

KJ, what 21st century military force issues the semiautomatic civilian versions of assault rifles to their troops?

They aren't military weapons, but even if they were, it was the SCOTUS in US v. Miller, judging the National Firearms Act, that opined that the 2nd might ONLY cover weapons that might be 'usable in a well regulated militia'. Miller was caught with a sawed off shotgun, not used in the military at the time but I understand US troops valued them for the ugly and up close clearing out underground Viet Cong facilities in the '60's and 70's.

George Rebane

KenJ 145pm - If I err on describing the Gun Safety people, I err on the margins where it appears that you reside. Good for you.

Videodrone

Doug, as far as how she stored her weapons that was her decision (agreed, it was not a good decision)

the plagiarizer is Fareed - or did you miss that?

Videodrone

gun safety in 3 easy steps

1 every firearm is loaded
2 do not point the business end at anything you are not prepared to destroy
3 keep your finger off the trigger until you have acquired your target

everything else is detail

TheMikeyMcD

The 2nd Amendment insures that citizens can protect themselves from Government (foreign and domestic) using force/guns. It stands to reason that the 2nd Amendment permits (encourages) individuals to hold the same level of weaponry as the government (this includes guns, tanks, etc).

Gregory

Mikey, I think it's fairly well accepted that it wouldn't cover tanks, howitzers, aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons, etc., but rather those weapons a member of the organized or unorganized militia might be expected to show up with. That said, IIRC it was a small cannon held in common that the British were marching to seize when the shooting started in 1775.

Gregory

"His mom didn't keep them locked up."

We don't know how she had them stored, it hasn't been released. A motivated smart young man with a hacksaw after mom went to sleep might have gotten through a reasonable storage. The point is, we don't know.

Not that not knowing will stop the usual suspects from making stuff up.

Ken Jones

Never stated scary looking Videodrone. That is your assumption and it is wrong. I believe a fully automatic machine gun belongs in our military not in our homes. I know I am in the minority on this site. After reading some of these replies I am glad I am in the minority. And this premise we could own tanks could also be used to assume we could own grenades, and hell what about a dirty bomb too? Just where the hell do you draw the line?

Gregory

"I believe a fully automatic machine gun belongs in our military not in our homes."

These have not been available to civilians in California since the '30's. Period.

So what are you talking about, Ken?

George Rebane

KenJ 331pm - I didn't know that the majority of RR readers are promoters of machine guns in the home. Talk about par force.

Gregory

"When asked if Connecticut state police believe Mrs. Lanza handled her guns responsibly, spokesman Lt. Paul Vance paused for a moment behind his cluttered desk at state police headquarters and cryptically told The Daily Beast, “I think you’ll be surprised” to learn the truth about that once the final police report is released."

Daily Beast, 7 Jan 2013
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/07/did-nancy-lanza-handle-her-guns-responsibly-you-ll-be-surprised-police-spokesman-says.html

Videodrone

As Gregory points out full automatic have been banned in CA for a very long time, even in the states that allow private ownership you have to have the right Federal paperwork and there is a $200 tax on any transfer (on the other hand some of the said states allow private ownership of some serious hardware - see the gun shows on Discovery)

what I'm attempting to point out is that there is no functional difference between a mini 14 "Ranch Rifle" with a traditional wood stock (which under the Assault Weapons ban was legal)

and by simply field striping (which you do when you clean it) and place it in a black pistol grip stock became a banned rifle - no other changes, just the handle so yes the criteria was "scary looking"

Gregory

And KJ, the past and hopefully not in our future DiFi "Assault Weapons Ban", and the new New York laws banning "assault weapons" also have nothing to do with "fully automatic machine guns".

Because of the words you use, many here obviously think you've been confused by the intentional blurring of terms that the promoters of these bans have used to get political traction. Have you?

Joe Koyote

RE: Islamic terrorism
In my lifetime, first it was the Red Chinese (Korea), then the Soviets (cold war), then the commies in general (Vietnam), then ethnic cleansing, drug cartels and Sandinistas, and now Islamic Terrorists. There always seems to be some enemy of the state lurking out there to take away our wide screen TVs. Ragheads, sand niggers, gooks, chinks; depersonalizing an enemy makes it easier to dismiss their ideas and their lives. No one is born a racist. No one is born Methodist. No one is born a capitalist or a communist. All of how we see the world and its good guys and bad guys we are taught. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. So who is really right? The enemy thinks they are equally justified in their actions as we do.

I know someone who works for a defense contractor in the Pentagon. The group this person works with conjures up various terrorist WMD attack scenarios in US cities and then creates various response scenarios. I asked this person point blank, "Is there a global terrorist network?" Answer: No.. there are hundreds of small independent disjointed terrorist groups throughout the world but very few communicate or are capable of large scale attacks. What we do have are numerous paranoid people at the top of our military who go off at the slightest provocation and overreact, like the shoe bomber fiasco.

It is well documented that our military incursions into the middle east have created far more Islamic terrorists than we have subdued. Has anyone considered the terror to children of having drones flying over your head, all the time knowing it could instantly kill you by mistake? They see the Great Satan and we see terrorists..it really is all about what side of the coin you grew up looking at. That is the pity of war, both sides think they are right and the enemy is evil. It starts with the truth.. if we can only find it.

Ken Jones

I never spoke specific to CA and I am fully aware that you can't have a machine gun in CA. Way too much projecting by you guys.
So Greg what I am talking about is a national issue of guns, and I cited a machine gun. Is that too hard to follow?
And George just who is promoting machine guns? I simply pointed out that I believe a machine gun is a weapon for the military not for a home. Didn't accuse nor imply that your readers were advocates of machine guns in private homes, but from some of the responses this may be the case.
Seems pretty easy to follow.

Gregory

"So Greg what I am talking about is a national issue of guns, and I cited a machine gun. Is that too hard to follow?"

Yes, because machine guns aren't in any fashion the current "national issue of guns" and its mention seems to me to either be either evidence of a great misunderstanding by you, or a red herring intending to sidetrack a conversation.

So, if you know California hasn't EVER allowed real assault rifles to be sold to civilians, and the current "national issue" as discussed by Obama and Gov. Cuomo, and that the "assault weapons bans" have nothing to do with "machine guns", why did you even bring them up?

Douglas Keachie

As I have pointed out before, perhaps not here, having a fully automatic weapon may be a poor choice, if you are trying to kill as many unarmed children in as short as time as possible.

My Canon 7D (digital camera) as 10 second dely, 2 second delay, single shot, slow multiples, and fast multiples. I almost never use the fast multiples. The first place shot (Nevada County Fair, photojournalism, pro division) of the Amgen racers going by Grace Lutheran Church, was done on single shot. It was the best shot out of seven, in the approximately 10 seconds it took the entire crowd to go by. You get better precision with single shots.

The toy assault rifles, in semi auto mode, are ideal for taking down many in a short time, without running out of ammo and having to slap in another clip. This reduces the number of clips that need to be carried. My guess would be the hand guns were in a backpack, along with additional clips, plus a few clips in the pockets.

I suspect that most of the damage was done with the AR-15, which uses the .223 bore bullet with 10 times the kinetic energy of the .22LR Christmas Eve some idiots on the ridge out on Bear Trap Springs Road riddled two trees with these rounds, with the snowfall the next day, by Dec 26 the trees had toppled. Those of us sleuthing the cases recover .223 shell casings. Try bringing down such a tree with a .22LR.

img_1895_std

It really doesn't matter what you call them, the entire estate of Lanza's mom should be divided up among the surviving parents, and that should become the law of the land, so that lawyers don't get rich on protracted proceedings, and so that others will think twice about how well secured their weapons are.

George Rebane

JoeK 522pm - "depersonalizing the enemy". If you ever were in the military, you have forgotten what you learned. When human beings are designated as 'T371' or 'Romeo Charlie 14' icons on a combat system display, they are depersonalized into video game agents. When they are designated as 'japs', 'krauts', 'gooks', 'slopes', 'ragheads', ..., it gets very up close and personal - you know you are fighting a hated human being.

Now is it correct to hate the human being that seeks to kill you and yours? That kind of philosophizing and truth seeking is a totally different question that you don't want to ask during the heat of battle. As a combatant, you hope that those issues have been resolved, and you can concentrate on your job of being an efficient killer. Of course, it's never that cut and tried, especially in the American military. But we know that our historical enemies have overcome such soul searching, and made us suffer tremendously even with our superior weapons and logistics.

http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/02/of-ragheads-and-racism.html

And apparently you also overlooked how your 331pm of "I know I am in the minority on this site. After reading some of these replies I am glad I am in the minority." was interpreted. If you were in the minority on the question, it doesn't take three digits to figure out that the others were in the majority. Perhaps you have a communications problem.

Douglas Keachie

I suspect that if the other side IS shooting back, the full auto makes good sense, especially if you have several guys close together, the fire can be near continuous, as three are reclipping and one is firing. Even so, the footage I've seeen from Afghanistan shows the soldiers doing short bursts.

We don't know for sure it was an AR-15 at Bear Trap Springs, but the neighbors described it as near continuous fire, hundreds of rounds, and here's a shell casing:

img_1891_std

George Rebane

For the more careful reader - a clip is a receptacle for cartridges that fits into a weapon which has a mechanism to extract the cartridges from the clip and feed them into the chamber. A clip has no stored energy for feeding/expelling the cartridges. The last American semi-auto to be clip fed is the M-1 Garand rifle introduced during WW2. On the other hand, a magazine feeds cartridges by means of an expanding spring that is compressed when the magazine is loaded. All semi-auto handguns and rifles today are magazine fed.

The layman continues to find this a difficult notion, and easily confuses the two distinct mechanisms when attempting to discuss guns. The difference is important because clips hold only very few rounds - the Garand's clip holds eight. All of today's 223 caliber and 5.56mm semi-auto rifles are magazine fed.

Douglas Keachie

And Greg, if it can be hack-sawed, or reciprocating sawed, or frozen and hammered, or Volvo jacked, or lifted and moved by two people it is not secured. Safes bolted to concrete floors works pretty well.

This would be adequate:
[outsized photo deleted in favor of a smaller one down below. gjr]

George Rebane

DougK 643pm - Do us a favor with your profuse imagery in these comments. Just post them on your own site, and put a link into your comment here so that those interested can see them. The size of the above picture is obscene, they can be shrunk you know. Thanks.

Douglas Keachie

Sorry, wasn't watching, you can delete it and I'll upload a more respectful size, but perhaps the point has been made. As far as the NRA emasculating the ATF, here's the link for that

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
Get More: Daily Show Full Episodes,Political Humor & Satire Blog,The Daily Show on Facebook

Gregory

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed but they'd better have a bank vault to store them in or we'll toss their ass in jail if anyone steals them".

No, that isn't the 2nd Amendment. Sorry, Keach.

George, a kibitz... it's M1 Garand, not M-1, and while it was the last service rifle to have an "en bloc clip" mechanism, "stripper clips" holding 10 5.56 cartridges have been issued to facilitate reloading M16 magazines quickly and are widely available.

Walt

LOL Dougy,, What was the REAL size of that sapling? What?,, about 3 inches at best? The size of the pine needles in comparison is a dead giveaway. ( Caution,,, Images in Dougy's photos are vastly smaller than they seem)
I have seen better Sasquatch " evidence".
" hundreds of rounds" ? Really?? I call that just an hour or two at the range.
Just think what a .308 would do to that twig.
The next item on my purchase list on the AR platform is a SOCOM .468
That will be my "truck stopper". But the main reason will be for HUNTING.
Wild hogs are getting real bad down here, and these make the perfect tool for the job. ( since you believe your so smart, figure out just why that is.)
And they say "these" guns are no good for hunting.

BTW,, VP Joe, in his "meeting" with the NRA, he gave them all of 5 minutes
to give their side of the argument. That's right up there with,," Sure.... WE will give you a fair trial,,, Ya' got 5 minutes to make your case,, before we hang ya'.

Douglas Keachie

I will bet $10,000 against Walt's $100 dollars that the tree in question is at least 10 inches or larger in diameter. It's still out there, about a mile down from Cruzon Grade, at the hairpin turn, on the inside of the turn. Walt, I don't want to take candy from a baby, so make the drive before accepting my offer. When I get a chance to measure it precisely,, I'll up the ante to #100,000. Personal rough guess is 15 to 18 inches in diameter.

Corporations were never persons in the Constitution, they are now. The 2nd can be reinterpreted as well.

Ken Jones

Greg I brought up a machine gun as a weapon I believe belongs in the military not in the home. It is an example only. I think that is pretty clear. Doesn't matter if it is or is not part of our "conversation", it is my example only. No red herring no attempt to sidetrack. This is just an example of a weapon I feel that fully illustrates my contention on some weapons being intended for our military and not our homes.
A US citizen can own a machine gun in 41 of our 50 states. I think that 80% is a good example of where we need to rethink gun laws.

George Rebane

re KenJ 1104am - Since machine guns are not being used in crimes, but could be used against an oppressive state, why would anyone want to arbitrarily pick such a weapon and outlaw it? Were there numbers to support such fears, the conversation would be different.

Walt

Then look at the possible lives that might have been saved by someone.
That three could have fallen on someone in the future. Maybe a car ( or a hovercraft by that time) may have slid into that vary same tree and killed someone. Maybe a future heavy snow load would break the top out and go through a car roof just as it passes under.( we hear of that exact thing happening now and then) HAY!,, Ya' never know.
Now your back to the Corp. crap?
"The 2nd can be reinterpreted as well.",,,, LOL!! Your one of those," Yaa,, never mind the exact, clear text words they wrote down. "This" is what they "really" meant to say." ( Progressive revisionism at it's best) LIB teachers were/are real good at that when messing with young impressionable minds in the classroom.

Walt

Dougy,, I have yet to find a law on the books about "arborside" by gunfire.
No crime here. Better get Al Gore on the case. BTW,, Did you police the brass? Or did you leave them on the ground after taking the incriminating photos?
If so, what was the shell count? I'm sure someone would take those off your hands. There are PLENTY of people here that reload.

Douglas Keachie

Destruction of government property comes to mind, Waltzie, and BTW, the prettier shot was of the smaller tree, which was about 6 inches or more. Trees on Nat'l Forest land, as was the sign (not shown). Three inches? nope, most of brass already picked up and turned into sheriff by neighbors the day after, I got there a week later, looking for a friend's lost dog.

img_1731_std

Ken Jones

George
Again I am citing an example:
Authorities have witnessed the wrath of machine guns in the wrong hands. In an especially infamous 1997 attempt to rob a bank in North Hollywood, Calif., two men in full body armor sprayed machine gun fire at police, using illegal machine guns. Illegal because they are not allowed in CA.

True not much crime with a machine gun, but the Risk Impact/Probability would make this a valid discussion.

George Rebane

KenJ 1143am - Excellent. Then we should be even more ready to talk of saving lives from dangers that far outweigh the hoped for statistics to be gained from more gun control/confiscation.

Are we still talking about how to maximize lives saved from known and demonstrated dangers? If so, then the kinds of gun control remedies offered don't much bear on the problem. Or is there another agenda at work here?

Todd Juvinall

The only people killed in North Hollywood were the perps if I am recalling correctly. So their machine gun use backfired.

Using Jones logic I would suggest the people should no longer fly in a plane or drive a buggy. The Union was full of stories a hundred years-plus ago about carriage wrecks caused by runaway horses.

Walt

Better start on that " CHAINSAW BAN" OHHHH!!!!! The humanity!!!!
You do realize "those" are legal in arias that contain trees.

Yup,, the cops are going to get right on that. The perp that did this dastardly deed is at the top of their to do list over and above all the other crimes in the county. Have you contacted Eric Holder yet? Lisa Jackson no longer runs the EPA ( she beat feet when she got caught in a real fat NO NO,, so she's no help)

And one more thing... Your not big on following rules and regs yourself. ( as we all know)Those are for " other people ". Just like Jackson Lee.

Ryan Mount

> Corporations were never persons in the Constitution, they are now. The 2nd can be reinterpreted as well.

[face palm]

It's not about reinterpreting, it's about amending, which we are free to do at any time as often as we want. It's a reasonable and sane way to handle our affairs and keeps whimsical trends out of our government, for the most part. Why not just amend it? What is the anti-gun crowd afraid of?

Anyhow, since you brought it up, the only people who say "corporations are people" are people who haven't read the judgements. More propaganda.

Now I don't particularly like the might of a large company, especially those in crony relationships with our government, manipulating the system for their benefit, but the this whole "Corporations is people" is the wrong interpretation if we read the actual Citizen's United arguments and the subsequent decisions. But that would require actual reading instead of repeating Internet stories. Reading of BOTH (they got two! And the government screwed up twice! Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.) arguments before the court. It was Ginsberg who evoked this "corporations as citizens" language. Which, BTW, caught everyone off guard, including the Solicitor General.

What the majority found, was this was a 1st Amendment right of the people *within* the companies and UNIONS. Not that corporations/unions are people, which a ridiculous assertion by any measure.

Now Justice Stevens did his best in the dissent to show how these large bodies of people have the power to tilt elections and that corporate (no mention of Unions in the dissent, BTW) spending is "furthest from the core of political expression," but that just didn't rise to the standard of the 1st Amendment with the majority opinion that felt the speech trumps all of the complaints.

Read (again, more reading) all about it and the Obama Administration's embarrassing botchery of the case: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/05/21/120521fa_fact_toobin?currentPage=all

Don't like the Citizen's United case? Me neither particularly. What are the options? Like the gun issue, it's simple to understand: amend the Constitution not to declare that corporations and unions are not citizens, which isn't true anyway, but rather than money does not equal speech.

Walt

Speaking of that bank robbery, as I recall the cops were out gunned, but a gun shop in close proximity to the event offered up his entire store to the police and told them to grab what they needed to even the playing field.
Just think what the outcome may have been if that gun shop wasn't there, and idn't have what the police needed " right then, and there." ( because of some stupid ban)
And what did the bleeding heart LIBS have to say when the smoke cleared?
" The police didn't get the downed shooter to the hospital fast enough."
Just one more example of where Progressive priorities are.

Gregory

Ken, the '97 North Hollywood bank robbery, as you mentioned, didn't involve any machine guns that were legally possessed. But not just in California. Those were real "assault rifles" that were *never* legally possessed in the USA, probably smuggled in from some banana republic along with an illegal agricultural or pharmaceutical product... If machine guns were imported in the same volumes as pot, we'd be up to our asses in real AK's.

To actually get Federal approval to own a machine gun, besides living in a state that allows it. you have to pass the equivalent of a Secret clearance, and such folk tend not to rob banks or murder people. Not to mention that the folks able to cough up $10K or more for a gun (you can only buy one that is already legally owned) that would cost less than $1K at a normal retail markup are also not the types to rob banks, at least with guns.

Since, as far as I can tell, no such licensed firearm has ever been used in a crime, and there's something like 600,000 of them in circulation, I'd say the NFA legal machine guns don't represent a hazard to anyone.

Ben Emery

Just to be my normal annoying self on RR.

Why is it the further we go down the rabbit hole of Supply Side Economic/ Conservative and Republican Reagan Counter Revolution government we have less trust that our government represent our interests? Thus the need to stockpile weapons and increasingly more militarized weapons. By Conservative and Reagan Revolution Republican I mean we are only individuals that reside in American not the we are Americans and are in this together. Notice that Conservative and Republican are both capitalized.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help." The nine words that kicked off the Reagan Counter Revolution.

Here is a lesson learned by non violent activists and why it is a dead give away when a non violent movement turn violent has pro-establishment provocateurs among the movement. Only non-violent movements will create the desired change from OUR OWN government because any kind of force/violence used towards the establishment/ state justifies a return of overreaction abusive force. The difference in between Egypt and Syria revolutions are the Egyptian revolution was based in non-violence and the Syrian was based in violence. Egypt had a civilian death toll under 1,000. Whereas the ongoing armed violent revolution in Syria has death count already of over 60,000. Righteousness nonviolent movements will always be more powerful as long as the media or information gets out to the public.

George Rebane

re BenE's 1231pm - "All power grows out of the barrel of gun." Chairman Mao. "How many divisions does the Pope have?" Joseph Stalin. "At the bottom of every stack of government regulations lies a marshal's gun." Alan Greenspan. "The pen is mightier than the sword only to the extent that it can invoke a mightier sword." George Rebane.

Governments live by these truths, that's why they seek to control both the gun and the pen.

Walt

Nice rant Ben. " nonviolence" you say? Maybe you should use some examples a little closer to home. Like the Tea Party VS OWS. How does those two groups fit
into your " non violent" screed?

Walt

Just a little trivia fact. It is SAFER to vacation in a war zone known as Afghanistan, that it is to in a "gun free zone" known as CHICOGO.
( less American troops were killed there,than civilians killed here on U.S. soil) Yup,, good old gun control is working just GREAT!

BTW,, Good luck NY on getting those new 7 bullet magazines. ( aside from a model 1911 .45... I think..)

Walt

Well well.... I see where Ben sourced, and (sort of)retitled his " Conservative and Republican Reagan Counter Revolution ".
And from West Point no less! Get a load of what they think about us freedom lovers there..... And they say we need not fret.. OH,,,JOY!.....

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/18/terrorism-center-at-west-point-warns-against-danger-of-american-limited-government-activists-and-far-right/

Ben Emery

George,
I don't remember Moa or Stalin ever promoting non violence. Also you forgot the last part, "Righteousness nonviolent movements will always be more powerful as long as the media or information gets out to the public. "

Walt,
OWS vs TP. There is a big difference between the two movements.

- TP promote the ideas and policies of the establishment, so the hammer doesn't come down. Those who have profited most off of our current policies own both parties that operate our government. Less taxes, less regulation, and less government spending (social programs not military) all work to the benefit of the wealthy and big business.

- OWS challenge the policies of the establishment and there is a massive oppressive response from the establishment but people weren't shot and killed.

If TP comes out against the establishment with the same rhetoric we will see a violent exchange between the people and the state that will more than likely result in people being killed. In turn will perpetuate more violence.

Walt

Yada,yada,yada.... You sure skipped over that "non violent" part.
Arrests: TP 0 , OWS 1000's+. Cost of damage. TP 0 ( property values most likely appreciated) OWS millions.
TP works within the laws, OWS, well,,, need I say more? rapes, (yes)killings,
home grown terrorists found within their ranks. And "O" and Co. pats them on the back, and Left wing media makes excuses for them.

It's clear that your one of those that like to cozzy up to "security over Liberty".
Uh,,, what's the " other" half of that statement?

Walt

Looky what I found! And they still want to blame Bush
for New Orleans and all that "lost" money. Looks like someone found it.
And in a Democrat's pocket no less.. ( like that's a surprise)
Look for this pardon to show up on "O"'s desk when the time comes.....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/18/justice/louisiana-former-mayor-indicted/index.html

Michael Anderson

The Weathermen also believed that the best way to remove a tyrannical gov't was by choosing a violent path. Other than the obvious ideological polarity, how is what you guys espouse any different than what they believed?

George Rebane

BenE 134pm - Your last part was covered by my little aphorism. And in this land of polarized and biased reporting, I believe we can pretty much forget about your "... as long as ..." part being of any help. They most certainly don't report stuff that we conservetarians consider of importance.

George Rebane

MichaelA 251pm - I'm not familiar with the ideology of the Weathermen, but I do know how our Founders thought to deal with a tyrannical government, and the legacy that they left us in that regard.

Gregory

"I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_pledge

Walt

Ironic isn't? The "assault weapons" fun has come back and bit "O" and Co. in the ass. Good ol' F&F.. Rich Marshal Holder is doing some heavy felating to try and keep those F&F records sealed. And from what I hear in the wind, the "we have to do something" that's coming from "O" and Co. most likely will apply to them too.
How many dead Mex. Citizens have piled up because of Holder?

Yes, Bush may have played the same game,, but those records were turned over none the less. The day of reckoning is near.

Gregory

The Bush era program was in cooperation with Mexican authorities, Fast and Furious was not. Not The Same Game.

George Rebane

re Gregory's 318pm - you gotta love that "... initiation of force ..."

Gregory

George, 3:37 ... David Nolan had a way with words. I suspect PoliSci majors from MIT in general have more on the ball than the ones from CalState Frisco, and Nolan had a pretty good run, o' that it could have been longer.

I signed that pledge back in the '80's when I became a card carrying member of the Party but I've since fallen off the dues paying wagon.

Walt

Mr. R,, Since you have the means, ( and I think you would have a BLAST )
Think about making plans for a trip to AZ. . The Big Sandy gun shoot
is a few months away. I will get there one day, but not anytime soon.
My daughter was at the last one and told me what I was missing.

Automatic weapons are there to rent. (you buy the ammo as well)
From heavy guns to tanks are on the menu. The full rules, regs, and events
are on the Big Sandy web site.

I encourage any and every 2ND Amendment lover to attend just once in their life.


George Rebane

Walt 414pm - Thank you. That might be fun to do again. But I have had the chance (duty) to fire more kinds of weapons than I can recall that range from 223 to 175mm guns courtesy of the the US Government. (One of the most fun was the 105mm Jeep-mounted recoilless rifle with a coaxial 50 cal spotting rifle that is loaded with a magazine full of tracer rounds. A feeling of raw power in the hands of a lowly infantryman - but with that kind of gun you have to 'shoot and scoot', because it leaves a mighty big dust cloud behind that shouts 'here I am!')

Walt

Just thinking of ya',, and I know you like to get away now and then.
My fear of going there is that I would burn up the value of my house
in ammo alone.

Michael Anderson

George wrote: " you gotta love that '... initiation of force ...'"

That's the crux of it, right? If the bad ol' gov't initiates force, then the 2nd Amendment has provided the means for us to defend ourselves.

Well, I can't speak for the Weathermen, and I don't believe they actually had much of a gelled philosophy, but let's just pretend that the unarmed peaceful protesters who were murdered at Kent State is what got the Weathermen's panties in a bunch.

Weren't they engaging in their own version of par force?

George Rebane

MichaelA 554pm - I am confused. "Weren't they engaging in their own version of par force?" Which "they" are you referring to? The protesters had no par force. And I'm not sure what the Weathermen did with their bunched panties.

Douglas Keachie

Walt

The couple that had to walk two miles through the dark to get to their home that night the tree finally toppled might have a few other notions about finding the tree across the road than you do. If they had been coming the other way with a medical emergency, there would be hell to pay. The couple whose dog was in a panic at the time of the shootings, and which managed to slip out two days later ain't happy either. The dog has been sighted in the area, but won't come near any humans, but is seen on game cameras.

I'm noticing with amusement Hannity tonight, with champion female shooter demonstrating various guns, slowly squeezing the trigger once every two seconds, in an honest injun demo of how it works. The point being made was supposedly the great big hole from the shotgun with #2 was what you should really be afraid of. No mention of real speed of fire, speed an ease of reload, or distance of effectiveness, how to lie with human powered Powerpoint.

Steve Frisch

I'm ruminating on the fact that Glenn Beck has become an urban planner, and his Independence, USA (with its Gal'ts Gulch main street) looks a hell of a lot like new urbanist, Agenda 21, communitarianism.

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/01/16/glenn-beck-double-agent-for-agenda-21/

Douglas Keachie

A magazine has a spring that forces bullets into the chamber....

So a Playboy with a pop-up centerfold?

Seems that a lot of folks have confusion between mags and clips, and what does it matter? You can print your own; http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/01/14/gunsmiths-3d-print-high-capacity-ammo-clips-to-thwart-proposed-gun-laws/

My guess that you could buy enough of a machine shop to make AK-47s for under $20,000 used. That was one of the original design criteria, easy to make parts.

Now for the real scary: BioLab Hackers DIY DNA sequencing and green glowing cats:

http://blog.ted.com/2013/01/15/ellen-jorgensen-on-what-you-can-do-in-a-diy-biotech-lab/

Douglas Keachie

I suspect that the reference to the Weathermen (The Weather Underground) was really aimmed at The Symbionese Liberation Army, which did a lot more damage with guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army

Michael Anderson

George obfuscated: "The protesters had no par force. And I'm not sure what the Weathermen did with their bunched panties."

Seriously? How do you know those kids at Kent State didn't have guns at home to honor their 2nd Amendment rights?

PART 1 of 4

Michael Anderson

Let's take, for example, the current par force of the day.

The Syrian protests and demonstrations started peacefully, and the gov't responded with gunfire. The protesters went home, loaded their guns, and answered like for like. Par force!

PART 2 of 4

Michael Anderson

Soon, Bashar al-Assad will be doing the "last plane out of Damascus" boogie.

PART 3 of 4

Michael Anderson

The Weathermen's bunched panties led to the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Weatherman_actions


PART 4 of 4

Michael Anderson


Here's the link that was causing the trouble above: http://tinyurl.com/b6skq8g

Douglas Keachie

Yup Greg, Keachie's just so far out in left field, no one else has such crazy ideas.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/01/massachusetts_bill_would_requi.html#incart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2

This too shall come to pass.

MA Part 3 Agreed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9b3ZZywQvg

Gregory

Regarding the initiation of force and "let's just pretend that the unarmed peaceful protesters who were murdered at Kent State is what got the Weathermen's panties in a bunch".... let's get a Biblical perspective with some dialog from the Kevin Smith comedy, "Dogma". A scene with the last scion, Bethany (Linda Fiorentino) and the 13th Apostle, Rufus (Chris Rock):

Bethany: You were martyred?
Rufus: That's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it would be to say that I was bludgeoned to sh*t by big f*cking rocks.


Sorry, but throwing rocks is an initiation of force, as is burning buildings, and if you throw rocks at a bunch of scared and *armed* National Guardsmen sent to control mobs without any riot training, well, while it wasn't a shining moment in the National Guard history, stoning isn't a healthy part of any non-violent demonstration.

Walt

Someone stop by Dougy's place and put him back on his meds..
Ya' gotta tone the rhetoric down. In knee jerk reaction times like this,
some busy body just might not understand the long standing wacky nature
you possess, and call "the proper authorities". To the layman, you could pose a threat to someone, and "something needs to be done before he hurts someone".
Ya' gotta watch what you say dude,, Us old timers know your pretty much harmless.. It's that one over sensitive dime dropping do gooder that will get you every time.
Just trying to protect ya' from yourself. We don't want you hauled away for just being you... Take care..

Michael Anderson

"...stoning isn't a healthy part of any non-violent demonstration."

Agreed. Got Arab Spring?

But back to par force, it seems like it always starts with a snide remark, a cut, and then maybe a kick to the shins. Next thing you know, the daisy cutters are dropping out the backs of C-130s.

I'm not trying to dissect Kent State all over again here, I am just trying to equate the Weathermen (on the left) with those on the right today who are making a lot of noise about the gov't getting some "lead persuasion" if they get all tyrannical and such...

Michael Anderson

Walt, you don't need to worry about Jesus Keachie. He's the real deal. You get what you get, and he could care less what anyone thinks. Good for him.

But it's good to hear that you're concerned...(-;

Douglas Keachie

Armed guards in schools gets off to a great start, or similar word starting with "f".

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/18/1469231/armed-school-guard-leaves-gun-in-student-bathroom/?mobile=nc

37000 schools nationwide, open typically 180 days a year, what could possibly go wrong?

Douglas Keachie

In a previous life I see Greg as a columnist in a southern newspaper, writing about why lynch victims had it coming, but he himself would NEVER particpate.

Douglas Keachie

We've run out of Daisy Cutters, but we and the Russians have improved it. We created the Mother of All Bombs, so of course they invented the Father: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAB Big benefit compared to nukes, no radioactivity.

Gregory

Keachie 10:46, a new low.
Doug already is a character right out of 1984; inventing crimes and revising history, excising Oldspeak and in with the Newspeak.

MA, the Weather Underground was formed to foment a violent overthrow of the government, and there's a Grand Canyon between that and the rhetoric of fighting back if the government initiates violence. Going back to the Clinton years, Ruby Ridge and Waco both fed the militia wackos, with some good reason: they were both ugly overreaches by triggerhappy feds running roughshod over the Constitution.

Douglas Keacie

And the Symbionese Liberation Front with cyanide laced hollow points for Marcus Foster and shot up banks and a funeral pyre house in LA was just the Left's version of the Tea Party, back in the Disco 70's? You are so predictable, Greg, plunk your magic plonger again, we are all so entertained!

Douglas Keacie

What Greg fails to have ever understood is that the rank and file of those going to the antiwar demonstrations were not privy to the conversations of the leaders of the Weather Underground, and were not concerned about the WU manefestos, and frankly could care less. Those protestors were there to protest the war, PERIOD!

At no point in time have I heard it stated that the four shot were active members of the the WU. Would Greg care to correct me with evidence from the time?

Gregory

Every single sentence of "Keacie"'s 9:20 is pointless, and every single sentence of his 9:27 is based on errors of comprehension, starting with the first one.

The issue was Mandersonation's claim the Weathermen were just incensed by the Kent State shooting of nonviolent protestors; they weren't nonviolent, and the Weathermen were pledged to a violent overthrow of the government, period.

Protesting the war can be done without setting buildings on fire and throwing rocks at the firemen and police who respond. Might that be appropriate? Maybe, but don't bitch about being shot at afterwards. If you throw rocks at people with guns, they are likely to shoot, not pick up the rocks and throw them back.

In a neonatal repeat, we have the Davis protesters who blocked people from getting into their bank by locking arms, in a big party, were warned about being pepper sprayed if they didn't break it up, and then whined about being pepper sprayed. Even our revolutionaries are wussies nowadays.

Steve Frisch

How ironic that no one wants to reply to the Glenn Beck city planning post. In short, Mr. Beck is proposing exactly the type of new urbanist development, with commercial mixed-use building, higher density housing, car free town centers, small businesses in the storefronts, innovation and tech centers, green building, renewable energy designed in, that he is railing against was he says every urban planning effort is a sign of creeping Agenda 21. So why is it if a community like this can be build as a Galt's Gulch, it is independence, but if it is built in a city center it is communism? And don't tell me because cities compel people to live in these environments; anyone who wants to move can if they don't like density, and a Beck commune will go through the same zoning and planning process in Idaho as any other project would. So A 21 activists, you should be opposing Galt's Gulch just as vigorously as you opposed a regional "Blueprint" or the original (and much better) plan for Loma Rica Ranch.

Douglas Keachie

"nonviolent protestors; they weren't nonviolent," ~Gregory Goodknight~

All of the protestors at Kent State were throwing rocks? The four who were shot were throwing rocks? Evidence please.

Or, to save you the trouble about hunting for what isn't there in a feeble effort to support your lies (based on your logic of always stating precisely what you intend, which you require from everyone else), here's Wikipedia:

"The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5]

Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.[6][7]

There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of four million students,[8] and the event further affected the public opinion—at an already socially contentious time—over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War.[9]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Douglas Keachie

Steve, what you are up against occurs often here:

CoreBeliefSystem copy

Gregory

Keach, if you're one of a mob, and some of the mob are throwing rocks at guys with guns and setting fires, you're part of a mob that is throwing rocks at guys with guns and setting fires.

It's clear from statements after the fact that many of the protesters assumed the National Guard had blanks, if anything, in their guns. Bad bet.

George Rebane

SteveF 1020am - I'm not familiar with Beck's proposal for a conservative community. But if it's anything like the Citadel on which I posted, then the difference between such conservative communities and Agenda21 driven community planning is obvious and should be accessible even to a progressive.

The Citadel will be a new planned community into which people will move/buy or not, knowing beforehand what the rules (CCRs) are. Agenda21 planning seeks to impose such new rules on existing communities already populated with different understandings of what property ownership would entail. A21 also seeks a universal imposition on its density standards and where humans will be allowed to live. And as I've advised the tin ears before, A21 does not need to be foisted under its own banners and marching band - as in Nevada County, progressives everywhere are imposing their 'smart growth' ideas.

Gregory

"So why is it if a community like this can be build as a Galt's Gulch, it is independence, but if it is built in a city center it is communism?"

Do it with your money, it's an oddity. Do it with my money, it's an outrage.

Regarding Loma Rica, I'm agin it because of the horribly conflicting land use; part of the reason for the lack of development is the airport noise signature and hazard shadow. Put lots of homes and businesses there and people will eventually be hurt. Badly.

Walt

Dougy has gone off the deep end.(@9:20)
The SLA was the "early version of the TP"
Just what the Hell are you smoking?
By your line of thinking ,the OWS was/is a harmless little quire group.
Got a photo of a Tea Party person throwing a rock through a business window? ( GOOOD luck with that. NO photo shop allowed We know you would do it just for the sake of pushing the argument)

Douglas Keachie

"if you're one of a mob, and some of the mob are throwing rocks at guys with guns and setting fires, you're part of a mob that is throwing rocks at guys with guns and setting fires. " ~Gregory Goodknight~

And that makes you a legitimate target for lethal fire? Well Greg, if you use a highway, and drunks use a highway, then you've made yourself a legitimate target for a headon. Some students hit weren't even part of the demonstration.

Gregory

"to save you the trouble about hunting for what isn't there in a feeble effort to support your lies"


I checked everything I wrote against the wiki before I posted. Perhaps if you'd quote one or more sentences you think were a "lie" we can figure out what your problem is.

I suspect it's your confusion of the term "unarmed" with "non violent", and an inability to see rocks thrown or arsons as "violence".

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