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17 January 2013

Comments

Douglas Keachie

"Move along, nothing violent about the Tea party, this time"

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Tea+Party+signs%22&hl=en&lr=&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=jfD6UOz2BqzWiAKOzIAQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1600&bih=873#hl=en&lr=&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%22Tea+Party%22+violence&oq=%22Tea+Party%22+violence&gs_l=img.3..0i24l10.43700.52769.0.54549.15.15.0.0.0.0.142.1761.0j15.15.0...0.0...1c.1.FzB0ILM1g44&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41248874,d.cGE&fp=2169850658cc63bc&biw=1600&bih=873

Gregory

Keach, perhaps if you'd *quote* one or more sentences you think were a "lie" we can figure out what your problem is.

Gregory

"And that makes you a legitimate target for lethal fire?"

"Legitimate"? National Guard troops not trained for crowd control or mob suppression were placed in harm's way. They didn't know "legitimate" from a hole in the ground, didn't know what the hell to do and had ammunition that carries a lethal force well over a mile.

Keach, you're a loose cannon. Again.

Douglas Keachie

Greg, who recommends gun safety training as in not picking out inappropriate targets, as a cure for school shootings, comes on strong, here too, as usual. A real Libertarian Contrarian!

Gregory

Keach, you misrepresent what I write faster than anyone can correct. And you've called me a liar but refuse to quote one supposed lie.

For the record, I've not once been an apologist for the National Guard at Kent State. The one hero there was probably the professor quoted by the wiki who pleaded, in part,
"I don't care whether you've never listened to anyone before in your lives. I am begging you right now. If you don't disperse right now, they're going to move in, and it can only be a slaughter. Would you please listen to me? Jesus Christ, I don't want to be a part of this...!"

Fortunately, he was listened to.

Walt

Holy crap Dougy!!! So some signage is "violence" in your book?
Good God man... Maybe you should look at some of the "signage" from
your OWN political affiliation.( Like when Bush was in office?)
A vary pisspoor comparison at best, We know how you love to grasp at straws when your sinking fast in the argument dept.

Gregory

Walt, what Doug Keachie does when he's called on an out and out falsehood is more character assassination. I'd call him a liar except I have no way to tell the difference between his inability to reason, understand the written word or remember what it really was 5 minutes later, and just plain BS pulled out of his wrinkled southernmost orifice intended to defame someone, often me.

Douglas Keachie

Gregory, back to his Basics, as predictable as Old Faithful, when ascribing the sources of his afflictions. Further proof that at least some of us have devolved from monkeys.

"The issue was Mandersonation's claim the Weathermen were just incensed by the Kent State shooting of nonviolent protestors; they weren't nonviolent"

The blanket charactization of the Kent State protestors, here clearly seen as including ALL Kent State protestors, is a lie, an untruth, a mischaracterization, a stupid cruel remark, a thoughtless remark, an utterance of a temporarily unkept mind, and just generally not condusive to adult conversation on a rational plane, a flight of Greg's fancy, if you will. As I mentioned before, Greg loves to insist in precision in the remarks of others, but occasionally gets slovenly when making remarks of his own.

Waltsie, up there in the Peanut Gallery, I never said the left was non-violent, in its entirity, and thought that looking at this fine selection of images would bring to the forefront, the just beneath the surface threatening and intimidation that the right love, saving the real deal for when they are sure they won't get caught.

Gregory

Keach, you're in a mob, a state of emergency was declared, the National Guard was called in by the Governor because of the *violence*, rocks are being thrown by the mob, and the mob is refusing to disperse. Earlier, a building was burned to the ground with a thousand cheering.

The only good thing that came of it is the National Guard changed how it handles crowd control. All they had that was effective were very lethal weapons.

A lie is an intentionally told falsehood and what I wrote remains literally true. No guardsman was found guilty of a crime with their claims to self defense accepted by the courts but to my mind the biggest insanity was the university remaining in session with the Guard called in, armed, to disperse the protests. Two of the dead were just innocent bystanders, a particular tragedy.

Gregory

"here clearly seen as including ALL Kent State protestors"

That's the mischaracterization that your petite slander rests on. Some of the mob were throwing rocks and setting fires. That wasn't a "non violent" protest, and some of the dead and wounded were part of the protest. And in general, the mob didn't disperse until one passionate Geology professor convinced them to take it seriously and avoid a huge slaughter.

Douglas Keachie

The beach is awash with your littoral débris, and like the stuff coming in on the west Coast from Japan, it is as radioactive as hell, and would be best offed the planet to become space junk. You go literal when it pleases you, but never allow others the same freedom.

Ben Emery

Greg, Walt, and all others who falsely equate non violent protests to violent acts.

If a movement and protest are based in non violence then we will see a vast majority of those movements and protests being non violent. When some violent provocateurs rear their ugly heads and start smashing things and acting out in violent ways, I bet you over 90% of them are paid or enticed to do so from somebody with power/ wealth that is being threatened by the movement/ protest. So your examples of rogue acts within a movement or protests are proving the point. If the theme was to be violent it would be the non violent protesters in the minority. Personally on smaller movements I have no problem with sabotage to inanimate objects and property. I can tell you right now that I have pulled up thousands of survey stakes, which in your guys eyes is a violent act. I slowed down the process by increasing the time and cost to the project by doing so it allowed more information to become public on the negative affects of the project. We stopped some really bad development projects in the Southwest but when money smells money those victories are almost always temporary because the money will continue to push until they get what they want. That is why Emgold lost its battle with CLAIM. CLAIM had the facts on their side and Emgold lost their funding and had to call it quits for the time being. IMM will become an issue once again in the near future when another financial backer is sold on the idea that there is gold in there tailings and abandoned mine shafts.

Douglas Keachie

"rocks are being thrown by the mob,"

Rocks are not thrown by mobs. They are thrown by individuals, and sometimes those individuals are agent provocateurs, from the government, the FBI, the original False Flaggers.

If you are in a bar, and somebody gets drunk, it does not mean that you are drunk, but then, how else to explain your writings of late?

You tried for fame as the "Great Divider." Are you enjoying your payback yet?

Gregory

More to the point of MAnderson's claim that the Weathermen were just responding to Kent State, from the founding document of the Weather Underground, signed, among others, by Bill Ayres and his wife, Bernadine Dohrn:

"The most important task for us toward making the revolution, and the work our collectives should engage in, is the creation of a mass revolutionary movement, without which a clandestine revolutionary party will be impossible. A revolutionary mass movement is different from the traditional revisionist mass base of "sympathizers". Rather it is akin to the Red Guard in China, based on the full participation and involvement of masses of people in the practice of making revolution; a movement with a full willingness to participate in the violent and illegal struggle."

Dated a year before the Kent State shootings.

Keach, you apparently can't even spell "literal" reliably, and you've been having problems with "Keachie".

Gregory

"I bet you over 90% of them are paid or enticed to do so from somebody with power/ wealth that is being threatened by the movement/ protest"

Ben, that's as bad as Joe McCarthy seeing a Communist behind every bush.

No Keach, rocks really are thrown by mobs, and the leader of any mob is the guy in the front.

Gregory

More accounts of "non violent protests":

"The dispersal process began late in the morning with campus patrolman Harold Rice, riding in a National Guard Jeep, approaching the students to read them an order to disperse or face arrest. The protesters responded by throwing rocks, striking one campus Patrolman and forcing the Jeep to retreat."

Steve Frisch

George, perhaps you should study up on "Independence", ID. It is essentially a new urbanist planned community. And A 21 does not impose any zoning or design review ordinances, cities, counties and regions do. All under EXISTING US planning law. It is all perfectly legal and vetted under the US Constitution. Buyers purchasing in any area should be fully aware of the rules governing use of property. It is their responsibility. I would be willing to bet you checked the zoning and neighborhood before you bought your house when you fled up here from your compound in the hills above L.A.

Walt

Libby revisionism is being written with crayon today.
Lets see the permit and paid in full carbon credits from all the
hot air Progressives.
(Reprinted WITH permission)
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

To the modern progressive, slave of the controlled media, freedom is fornicating naked in the streets. Freedom is destruction of traditional values and culture. Freedom is being fed, clothed, housed, and owned by the government. Freedom is having the rich and the elites armed to the teeth while you live defenseless. All while they rob you blind. Freedom is being a slave.

Follow your masters orders, peasants. Maybe he'll throw you a Roman style sex orgy party to celebrate the gutting of your constitution and the raping of your freedom. When is the inauguration anyway?

From a fellow Conservative with his head screwed on right,
and from the pages of S.F. gate.

Gregory

"I can tell you right now that I have pulled up thousands of survey stakes, which in your guys eyes is a violent act. I slowed down the process by increasing the time and cost to the project by doing so it allowed more information to become public on the negative affects of the project."

No Ben, it isn't violent but it is trespass, theft and vandalism; shame on you.

What project was it that you sabotaged?

George Rebane

SteveF 259pm - I think your comment again proves that you haven't understood a think I have written about A21. I'm not sure what you're saying or claiming that I said. Of course A21 does not have specific implementation codes and regulations for local areas. A21is just the blueprint for generating/revising such codes and regulations whose cited genesis can be anything one wants to claim. A collectivist doesn't have to cite the Manifesto every time he nudges society toward the Perfect Man.

Douglas Keachie

Obviously Greg completely missed the reference and the alliterative semi pun:

Littoral refers to "Coastal" which, as a grad of the illustrious "just as good if not gooder in English than Berkeley, esp. the anthro dept," Harvey Mudd, I would expect Gregory Goodknight to understand at first glance. Even Geology 101 would have gotten that piece of science vocabulary into his head. Maybe you were hoping to impress Walt?

S o mob is inherently a communist organization? Interesting concept, but it fails badly in historic examination. Just because you live in Nevada County, Greg, it doesn't mean that you join every single organization within the county, or agree with all your fellow citizens. Yet being a citizen of Nevada County does united you, at least geographically, to the rest of the citizens. Do you think that every Tea Party member in the Fourth of July parade agreed with the anti Obama sign, that said, "Bend Over for Change!" ???

dsc02771_std

Douglas Keachie

And the day isn't even over yet!

Occupy the NRA
BREAKING: 4 People Shot At 3 Different Gun Shows On Gun Appreciation Day. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/19/1473881/two-people-accidentally-shot-at-a-gun-show-safety-checkpoint-on-gun-appreciation-day/

Walt

Well,well, well... I know some people who have been looking for you.
RE; survey stakes. Thanks for the admission of guilt.
I'm sure you realize the COST of putting those back.( that's the whole idea I guess)
Can you say,,, vandalism?? That IS agin' the law! You might be proud of that. Then be just as proud of the consequences. Your acts (when you did'm) were reported to "the proper authorities". Those are still on the books, and open cases. Like I said. Admission of guilt, in an open forum, is SOOO admissible in court.
Can we tie you to an exact action? Maybe not... But that will be for your legal counsel to iron out. Glad you can afford the litigator, not to mention all the hassle that goes with it.

Thanks for letting us know that your a card carrying member of "ECO terrorism". YUP,,, That's what it boils down too.

You can bet when those stakes disappeared from one of MY jobs,
we were a little more than peeved. But I don't recall my crew going on
an "official eco buggy" burning rampage. Not that it didn't cross our minds at the time.

Anyhow,, thanks for fessin' up. Who knows,,, Johnny Law, might want to have a word with ya'. They are in need of revenue and will be more than happy to level some hefty fines.(at your expense)

Douglas Keachie

You might be safer in Chicago than at a gun show these days.

Walt

And ALL ACCIDENTS Dougy. Nice try.
How many "hate" signs can we find in Liberal hands when Bush was around?
Really want to go there? And those make any Tea Party sign look bland in comparison. ( We know,,, we know... You have piss poor eyesight, and only see what you want to)

Hummmmmm,, Ben a top official within the E.L.F.? And right here in little ol' Nev. Co. no less.

Walt

I'm passing my hardhat around to collect enough for a one way ticket to Chicago for dear old Doug. He needs to prove that statement.
It's been fun knowing ya'....

Steve Frisch

So let me see if I have what you are saying correct George: Agenda 21 has no force of law, it is merely a collection of ideas, put down more than 20 years ago by a bunch of people, and what happens locally is decided by locals, or through American law.

Seems like the person putting it into practice this time is Glenn Beck. Why should Glenn Beck have a right any other community shouldn't have?

So I see, it is the idea that is dangerous. Unless your friends do it and call it Galt's Gulch!

Walt

LOL Steve,, I happen to recall just WHEN Agen.21 first reared it's ugly head around here. Remember the name Drew Bidwell?( God rest his soul) How bout good old NH2020? Drew opened our eyes to 21 way back then, and just how NH2020
was tied in parts to 21. Libs called him nuts back then that 21 even existed, and was a figment of his imagination.
NOT so imaginary now... Is it? As I recall, it was LIBS that claimed that Ajenda 21 never existed.

Steve Frisch

First, I think you must mean Bedwell, and second, I have never said A21 did not exist, I said it was irrelevant because the decisions about planning, zoning, design guidelines and land use are made under local law, under the California State Constitution, and property rights are adjudicated under the US Constitution. What your guys did not understand in 2001 and still do not understand, is the LAW.

But you are a Beckhead Walt, how do you like his new urbanist community?

George Rebane

SteveF 440pm - Thank your for being persistently obtuse, because it illuminates another aspect of progressive 'logic'.

Plan A: Glenn Beck et al promote private enterprises that develop communities on private land for people to voluntarily join and live in a cohesive lifestyle that expresses a more or less similar socio-political ideology. It does not impinge on those who choose other lifestyles.

Plan B: Your Agenda21-like collective approach is to exact a new imperative of laws, regs, codes that change the lifestyles of people already living in a jurisdiction into which they moved expecting a different social order to perpetuate. These people will have to be marshaled to the new order under the threat or application of the government's gun.

Plan A is voluntary that sacrifices no liberties. Plan B is coerced by force that on the surface appears as the tyranny of the majority over the minority; but more often than not is really the tyranny of the activist minority over the unsuspecting and inattentive majority.

That you and yours don't see a difference here is another promoter of the Great Divide. On the intellectual plain, you are simply irredeemable.

Douglas Keachie

Here's your Plan A being applied to the Gun Lobby agenda:

http://www.politicususa.com/nra-fueled-loonies-threatening-democratic-members-congress.html

Douglas Keachie

Or could it be, the NRA's implementation of your Plan B ???

Steve Frisch

George, your problem is that you think that people live in bubbles....every citizen lives under laws, and every property owner lives in an environment where they are subject to the rule of law in planning and zoning. The land Beck is developing is covered by those laws, and your back yard is covered by those laws. There is ZERO difference. For you to think there is a difference is for you to say that you wish to be beyond the rule of law. It is essentially, unicorn farts.

George Rebane

DougK 628pm - Keep it up Doug. The "thinly veiled" description by the congressman says it all. It's the perennial progressives' 'we know what they are REALLY thinking'. First construct the strawman, then have a lot of fun cutting it down to the huzzahs from loyal chorus in the hustings.

Steve Frisch

I hate to laugh at this, but I find it HILARIOUS that on this "national gun appreciation day", 8 people have been wounded in accidental shootings at 5 different gun shows.

George Rebane

SteveF 649pm - To point that out is indeed embarrassing, and also very effective with the nation's innumerates.

Viewed in light of more focused statistics, the casualties attest to the large number of people expressing their support of the 2nd Amendment today, many of whom were clearly naifs in the proper handling of firearms. In that expanded population of support and enthusiasm, such accidents are a statistical certainty. You and your similarly endowed colleagues would be absolutely surprised at how many firearms accidents occur in the military on a regular basis with weapons in the hands of trained personnel.

Ben Emery

Walt,
I am proud of it and statutes of limitations have run out, sorry big guy. This was in the 80's and 90's. If it wasn't for my family/ kids I would have been more active at Black Mesa movement against Peabody Coal. Talk about corporate crimes and corruption. I would have broken the law in Nazi Germany just as I would have in the US Segregated South or South Africa. It is our duty to break unjust laws. The lies and criminal business practices of the developers in the region made my actions a duty. Yes eventually they were convicted of criminal wrong doing long after their developments were finished. Since corporations cannot be thrown in jail they were fined instead, lying isn't wrong or immoral in the big money world it is just part of the cost of doing business.

Douglas Keachie

Is Gabby Giffords a straw woman?

George Rebane

SteveF 647pm - Not at all. To make your point, you need to show that such private communities (as Beck is also describing) violate any of the common laws. They do not. The only bubble here is the Big Bubble that the progressives would like to see us in where equal outcomes are the only accepted measure of equal opportunity.

George Rebane

DougK 703pm - connecting logic please?

Douglas Keachie

Connecting logic: It seemed to me you were suggesting that threats from NRA noodle brains were a straw man, and I merely suggested they are not.

Ben Emery

George,
I don't want to get sucked into yours and Steve's Agenda 21 discussion because I don't know very little about it and I think Steve can handle his own on an issue it appears he is very familiar. That said, I have noticed you go to what is legal in your argument. Being legal and being correct are two different things. It's legal at the moment for the federal government to have access to our medical and library records, it doesn't mean it is correct.

George Rebane

DougK 804pm - I was quoting your cited congressman who constructed the usual strawman that he claimed to see through a thin veil. This your (i.e. progressives') substitute for rigor in a debate. Whatever another person says can be construed by you as a 'thinly veiled' anything you want it to be that is convenient to attack. The strawman, thus constructed, was only through your own subjective attribution. And, of course, I would expect you to accept what the congressman asserted.

BenE 815pm - your use of 'legal' and 'correct' in this context is faulty. In general my arguments are meant to be correct from a factual and logical perspective. If they happen to correctly incorporate some unclaimed point of law, then they are also legal. Your use of 'correct' implies the meaning of complying to some moral or ethical code. The more common semantic of 'correct' is with reference to an objective standard. For example, 9 is the correct answer to 5+4. I hope this helps.

Gregory

"S o [sic] mob is inherently a communist organization? Interesting concept, but it fails badly in historic examination." -Keachie

Absolutely bizarre and illogical construct unlike anything I've written. The Weather Underground was inherently Marxist, and I showed their violence were not inspired by Kent State (as the WU was formed a year earlier with an expressly violent manifesto) which is a claim MA made that started this idiocy of yours. Mob dynamics were a separate topic.

Keach, you just can't keep anything straight, can you?

Michael Anderson

Oh, what a fine sunny day it has been. A lovely work day, making lots of money, followed by a kids birthday party sleepover--this is what it's all about.

The kiddos are now watching some silly G-rated movie so I thought I'd slip over to RR for some adult comedy, and boy was I rewarded. The Keachie-Goodknight show never disappoints, I see a new injection of Agenda 21 madness, and Ben even admits to some lite "eco-terrorism" from at least a couple of decades ago.

Thanks guys, I needed the chuckles. Keep up the good work.

Walt

"I said it was irrelevant because the decisions about planning, zoning, design guidelines and land use are made under local law, under the California State Constitution," as in most states I gather as well.
And I happen to remember a radical group that used that to their
advantage to literally take over the community. Hell. they damned near got the whole County. You know,, that guru with a white Roles Royce
and his Hippy followers. (Rajneesh something or other)
What was it? The town of Antelope? The state slips my mind at the moment. Yes, they had power for a short time, but that came to an end real quick.

What went down there, sure had 21 written all over it. Almost like they had the playbook.

Michael Anderson

Walt, the tinfoil is showing. Might want to give that helmet a bit of an adjustment.

Michael Anderson

BTW, on the eve of Obama's inauguration I think David Brooks has written one of the best columns of his career. He describes very well the mess the Republicans have made of themselves, and the two options that the Democrats face: either try to work with them, or crush them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/opinion/brooks-the-next-four-years.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I have to say, the "crush them" option looks mighty appetizing. I especially like the diminishing political clout of the South. They had their day in the sun and now it looks as if they are returning to "unimportant backwater." Couldn't happen to a nicer group of illiterates, irascible malcontents, and Second-Worlders (certainly not all of the South--I love New Orleans, and Huntsville has some functioning parts--but you get the idea).

I hope their reduced status gives them the proper motivation to finally join the United States of America as a full partner and team member, rather than a pouting step-child with a chip on its shoulder the size of the Shreveport Eldorado. The South needs to grow up or secede once and for all (good riddance I say), and time is running out.

Jesus Betterman

Well Bush thinks the NRA (not Relevant Anymore) sucks: http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/11/us/letter-of-resignation-sent-by-bush-to-rifle-association.html

I think Greg should just head on over to Walt's and join him in his hot tub for a beer.

BUcketBathCU copy

Or maybe some $2.49 Buck Chuck. 5 million users can't be wrong. Of course, like the footlong Subway sandwich that only reaches 11", it no longer lives up to its original name.

I'm watching Further at the Sweetwater, in Mill Valley, on the Desktop, now streaming in live video and pretty good sound, so that's why I am J.B. just now.

Steve Frisch

Really George, you are like a petulant child. A 70 year old petulant child who stamps his foot and says, I want it my way, I do';t want to live in a society where people vote and decide if it does not go my way, I don't want to follow rules if the people decide and I don;t really care if they are within our system if it does not go my way. I don;t want to live with anybody who doesn't think like I do. Pretty soon you ail jusy be alone, like the guy in Life of Brian muttering in the Colosseum that he is the real representative of the People's Front for the Liberation of Judea. I think you should succeed. You came to the wrong friggin' country, You were 100 years too late. You should have gone to South Carolina. Its a new world baby, and it ain't yours to do with what you please. You have to live with other people. Live with it.

I am with you Michael, crush the bastards. They are yesterdays news. Oh, and I like Austin, and Little Rock, and Athens, and Durham-Raleigh, and Miami, and a few others, but George can have Hailey, Idaho and Oklahoma.

Michael Anderson

George, this is the Great Divide that many people capture from your words. You will need to get a lot more specific regarding the pieces on the ground.

Are we just talking about Citadel-like developments, or full-on secession?

"'So I was carried back to the Captain’s,' the man said later. 'That night he made me strip off my clothing down to my waist, had me tied to a tree in his backyard, ordered his foreman to gave me thirty lashes with a buggy whip across my bare back, and stood by until it was done.'"

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/souths-shocking-hidden-history-thousands-blacks-forced-slavery-until-ww2?akid=9929.6940.TKIhcb&rd=1&src=newsletter777738&t=3&paging=off

Gregory

"Crush the bastards" works, if you actually can, and then not lose badly in the next midterm elections. Good luck.

Expending a huge amount of political capital to criminalize the ownership of ugly rifles or all but the smallest detachable magazines is certainly an option. Go for it, guys.

George Rebane

MichaelA 139am - I don't exactly know how places like Citadel fit in with the idea of a Great Divide. But I'm sure that all such culturally cohesive communities have had and will have a part to play. But in the interval I look at them as just another strongly felt expression of values like that of Mormons, Amish, Branch Davidians, ..., and even some of the more recent attempts at starting bohemian style communes.

And you correctly detect a fear that runs through such planning today. Hearing about being joyfully "crushed", and/or having your cherished traditions and beliefs being proscribed, or even criminalized, is a scary thing for anyone.

A better example than SteveF's 1247am re this feeling of aggression and total misunderstanding of ideas is hard to find. People like he are not prepared to discuss such themes and ideas. Their counter is to attack individuals.

To demonstrate the disconnect, he continues to assert that people like me want to force our way of life and culture on others. And from his own words he is 180 out; it is he and his who want everyone to hew to their mode of thinking and accept their prescriptions for society.

I and mine do not want the whole world to do as we please. But for whatever measures are being prepared for us to be brought to heel, we must first be painted as ideological waywards and dangerous aggressors from a backward era. Unfortunately the approach works. It is easier to crush petulant bastards, than people whose belief systems deserve an equal place in the sun.

Re "pieces on the ground", please review previous offerings in RR's Great Divide category. As mentioned before, this is an evolving commentary that builds on what came before. In every piece I write, I cannot present a comprehensive development that starts from the beginning. If you want to converse with a person who has more than two ideas and three brain cells, you have to remember what was discussed before. But then again, maybe there's a deeper message in your request.

Steve Frisch

"Their counter is to attack individuals"....nonsense George, no one has been more "attacked" by posters here than I have been....the point I am making is that you, and each and every one of your posters here live in a society, and perhaps they should look that word up and learn what it means. No man is an island, least of all the one who fashions himself one.

To you an yours there is no 'compromise' with living in a society; you want it your way, all the way, all the time. You really are the "baby state". Just read the words of McD or Walt; or note the hypocrisy of loving Galt's Gulch which has to be processed under zoning laws, and calling new urbanism collectivism which is processed under the same laws. It will never be that way.......you will never get to be an island....living in society means we become part of the social contract...and we derive both rights and responsibilities from that...... I don't want the world to do as I please...I recognize that the world is not black and white...it is a nuanced place.......it is a place where compromise between conflicting philosophies and ideologies must occur... it is a place where other people may have some say over some aspects of my life in exchange for liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and security.

The point that you guys have such a hard time with that is why I continue to point out that you live in Candyland.

Douglas Keachie

"Mending Wall" is a metaphorical poem written in blank verse, published in 1914, by Robert Frost (1874–1963). The poem appeared as the first selection in Frost's second collection of poetry, North of Boston. It is set in the countryside and is about one man questioning why he and his neighbor must rebuild the stone wall dividing their farms each spring.

The neighbor rebuilds the wall without question, quoting "Good fences make good neighbors," a line listed by the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations as a mid 17th century proverb. But Frost's narrator questions the proverb, noting that neither his apple trees nor his neighbor's pine trees are likely to encroach on the other's property. He says, "Before I built a wall I'd ask to know / What I was walling in or walling out / And to whom I was like to give offense." He also observes, both at the poem's opening and again midway through the poem, "Something there is that doesn't love a wall," referring to the forces of nature that bring a wall to decay and require it to be repaired and rebuilt. But the neighbor is not receptive to the narrator's doubts, quoting again at the poem's close that "Good fences make good neighbors."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mending_Wall

What Was the Berlin Wall?
The Berlin Wall was both the physical division between West Berlin and East Germany from 1961 to 1989 and the symbolic boundary between democracy and Communism during the Cold War.

Dates: August 13, 1961 -- November 9, 1989

Also Known As: Berliner Mauer (in German)

Overview of the Berlin Wall
The Berlin Wall was erected in the dead of night and for 28 years kept East Germans from fleeing to the West. Its destruction, which was nearly as instantaneous as its creation, was celebrated around the world.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/coldwa1/a/berlinwall.htm

We know you know about Berlin. http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/04/1945---the-year-easter-was-cancelled.html#more

A major feature of The Citadel in a wall, seven miles long,

So how can you say "I don't exactly know how places like Citadel fit in with the idea of a Great Divide" ???

You can't get much more devisive than that, and 7 mile walls don't come cheap. Ask Hadrian and the Chinese.

Greg, only asking for gun owners to make an advanced commitment of financial responsibility and a real commitment to "keeping" the guns you supposedly are so fond of. Go ahead, buy a howitzer, but make sure you hang onto it, and that you don't lose your house should you fail in your responsibility. Yes indeed, the illegal gun market prices will rise, as illegal guns are harder to get. Deal with it!

George Rebane

DougK 935am - as long as you understand that the Citadel-like walls are 1) not meant to keep anyone in against their wishes, and 2) only meant to keep out those who want to come in by force and force their own agenda; and what the purpose of the Berlin Wall was, then we can understand in what sense the desired division is implemented.

You seem to be attempting to counter something that was not proposed by anyone. Clearly the residents of Citadel will be those who fear a physical assault on them because of their beliefs not shared by the attackers. A fortress is for defense, not offense.

But what no one on the Left wants to discuss is the motivating phenomena that lead people starting to again build such redoubts. Why are some minorities beginning to take that extra step now? The Mormons did it 150 years ago for obvious reasons. The Amish and other religious groups forming in the past saw no need for such defenses, as ultimately did the Mormons (although even today they are more than ready for a physical confrontation).

Douglas Keachie

Assume it is built, George, and now ask any kid 16 or older if they are "happy" there. Against their will? 18th birthday will be Freedom Day.

Douglas Keachie

Here's another system for controlling the illegal use of guns that should be implemented, nationwide:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/20/us-usa-guns-ammunition-idUSBRE90J02K20130120

Just out of curiosity, is it illegal to go to Nevada, buy ammo, and come back to California? Gun powder sniffing dogs at the fruit fly inspection stations? Where do Greg, George, and Walt buy their ammo? Best deals?

Gregory

Ref. 9:35

Should Keachie be forced to buy liability insurance before posting to blogs (his or anyone else's) or writing to a newspaper editor? Just because there's a constitutional right to free speech doesn't mean he should be able to exercise it without having the means to pay for the damages he'll cause from the occasional defamation.

Maybe we should also charge jurors for an insurance policy in case they violate the law and damage the process. Just think of all the possible revenue enhancements!

In short, Keach, don't expect infringements like requiring someone to buy insurance before they exercise their 2nd amendment rights to survive court challenges.


Douglas Keachie

Nothing I've written has ever killed anyone. You're the living proof.

Gregory

How sad for you, Keach.

Driving is a privilege, self defense is a right, and it's completely transparent that the insurance idea is not to solve an existing problem of liability but rather to infringe on the right to possess and use arms.

Douglas Keachie

You'll note that my ideas have focused on the first five years, of a decreasing bonding expense, not insurance, but the concepts are related. Steering the vehicle may be a privilege, but using public right-of-ways is, guess what? A Right! Remember that wonderful rantfest on The Union about Newtown Road, where somebody never heard from on any other issue, claiming to be a female resident of the area, carried on and on about her "right" to run over the bicyclists? Ah, the good old days....do you suppose she was a he in drag, maybe even someone you know? hehehhee...

Douglas Keachie

If you own a vehicle, whether you are the driver or not, you can be held responsible for any damage it causes. Just ask any company owner who's idiot choice of a delivery person results in an accident. Thus your use of the public right of ways, in this case, freeways, where pedestrians and bicycles are forbidden, is restricted by the need to insure, either self insure or pay a company to take on the risk. Using a public right of way is therefore pretty much requiring of insurance, even those the use of those right of ways is a right. Being the active driver is the only part of that equation that is a privilege. It's kinda like your pilot's license, just saying, no one can stop me from hiring a pilot. as freedom to travel is probably more basic than self defense. Ask any prisoner in a jail.

Gregory

Keach, how sad for you,. No, the owner of a stolen vehicle is not responsible for damages caused by the thief, only authorized drivers and you do have the right to walk wherever you want, assuming you have the right of way.

Regarding arms, what part of 'shall not be infringed' are you still unclear on?


Douglas Keachie

How sad for Greg, as there are mixed cases on what happens when you leave the keys in the ignition and thief B runs off and injures C, and C then attempts to recover damages from you.

http://digitalcommons.law.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3457&context=lawreview

Douglas Keachie

And do you really think the parents of Sandy Hook will be unable to recover from the mother Lanza's estate for negligence? The brother better hope dad's got something for him, mom's money is done history.

Douglas Keachie

"Regarding arms, what part of 'shall not be infringed' are you still unclear on? "

The part that says, "move along, there's nothing to see at Sandy Hook, no laws need to be changed or added."

Yup, I'm unclear on that part, and addressing mental health alone will not do the job that needs to be done. Let's see how many net members NRA has two years from now. NRA type money will show up on the other side, and you can have a taste of your own medicine in Congress.

"Regarding arms, what part of 'shall not be infringed' are you still unclear on? "

Ben Emery

Doug,
Lets look at a few things here.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Yet all of these go against much of the rhetoric on RR. We are supposed to believe we are a Christian nation, Islam should be censored and suppressed, protesters who peaceably assemble to redress their grievances on public property should be arrested, free speech zones are OK.


"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Yet with the very next amendment we should ignore the regulated part of the amendment because regulations are equal to infringement or "taking our guns away".

It appears to be very selective and hypocritical on both counts. Right Wing Ideologues are hilarious with their lack of comprehension of the US Constitution and the history behind it.

George Rebane

BenE 553pm - "Yet all of these go against much of the rhetoric on RR. We are supposed to believe we are a Christian nation, Islam should be censored and suppressed, protesters who peaceably assemble to redress their grievances on public property should be arrested, free speech zones are OK"

Ben, where oh where do you get all this crap? And this is the scary part about you progressives, such reasoning for/from you would be admissible in a court of law.

Todd Juvinall

The only way a person can have the opinions expressed above by BenE is if they are an absolute moron. How a supposedly intelligent person, (self described) such as BenE can interpret the writings an desires to protect the freedoms of our Constitution as some form of tyranny shows how well the system has dumbed down the morons. Amazing!

Ben Emery

George,
I find it amusing that you guys get so bent out of shape when somebody uses a general brush to categorize a common theme on your blog. Nobody has to directly say it for it to be true, most conservatives that comment on RR believe we are a Christian nation. I come to this conclusion by what is conveyed in the discussions on RR among other right wing places.

I will say this and leave it alone. George Rebane and virtually all conservative participants on RR have no idea what motivates liberals/progressives/collectivists/socialists/communists (Fill In The Blank/ FITB) or what ever is the name of the day for those who disagree with your positions. The great divide is never more apparent when you try to explain the reasoning being a FITB motivations. Broad brushing isn't only misused but abused at nausea by the Rebane's, Steele's, Juvinall's of the world.

In the most simplistic terms I can think of.

Equality doesn't mean everyone gets the same end result
Equality means everyone gets the same access and opportunity

Walt

Ben works on the old school LIB principal. Like his fessing up to vandalism just because "he" didn't like what was going on.
Then there is that pesky 2ND he dislikes so much. Ben posts the wordage, then tries to rewrite the meaning of those words. Right back to " Yes, that want the words say, but this is what they "really" meant to say". Hence their "revisionism".

"In the most simplistic terms I can think of.

Equality doesn't mean everyone gets the same end result
Equality means everyone gets the same access and opportunity"

And just what's wrong with that? OH... That IS what's wrong in your LIB eyes
" everyone should have an "equal" cut, without doing their "equal part"
That's the diff between you and me. " Say" we have a (ha)partnership on a job, I do MOST of the work, (if not all) and you would demand your 50% no matter how little of a contribution you made.
YUP,, that sums up LIBS in a nutshell.

Gregory

""A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Yet with the very next amendment we should ignore the regulated part of the amendment because regulations are equal to infringement or "taking our guns away"."

No Ben, a well-regulated militia isn't a reference to regulations passed by Congress and signed into law.

Ben appears to be saying infringements that are regulations enacted into law are OK because of the "well-regulated" mention in the prefatory clause; sorry, Ben, but it's a "well-regulated militia" that is desired, not a "well-regulated people". The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed BECAUSE a well-regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state.

George Rebane

BenE 1011am - That you find amusement on these pages is good, and most certainly one of my objectives for laboring in this vineyard. Thank you for the kind sentiment.

Any model is good only to the extent that it reliably explains and predicts observations. Posit that my understanding of progressives' motivations is poor (or as you claim, non-existent). Nevertheless, I am most satisfied by what you leave me (us?), because the performance of the model used to understand and then predict leftwing doings continues to be unerring. Perhaps that's all that we can ask for.

And thank your for your "simplistic terms" on equality. While all may agree on the first one, the rub is in how one defines "same access and opportunity" in the second. I suspect we may differ on that. Stay amused.

Gregory

"I find it amusing that you guys get so bent out of shape when somebody uses a general brush to categorize a common theme on your blog."

Ben, what you call a "general brush" are your usual ludicrous caricatures "generally" unsupportable by any close reading of anything that George or the other conservatives have written.

"[M]ost conservatives that comment on RR believe we are a Christian nation"--- Not being one, I'd not deign to speak for conservatives in general, but as the Wiki states "The majority of Americans (73%) identify themselves as Christians and about 20% have no religious affiliation"; mix that with Frisch's general opinion that as long as you get a 50% +1 majority, anything goes, it would appear that the USA is a Christian nation. However, we still have a Constitution to limit those pesky Christians:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Now, why did those now dead white guys who were virtually all Christians put that in?

Walt

Has "O" signed the " Barney Fife" addendum to the 2ND?
That is were you can only carry one bullet in your "left"
breast pocket ( otherwise a felony) and you can only insert
that cartridge upon approval from a higher authority. ( submitted in writing, three individual copies, for City, state, and FED)
You must allow up to two weeks for proper authorization to do so.( circumstances be damned)That includes any private residence.( we have to keep them locked up, trigger locked, disassembled, and well out of reach at any given time as it is.)

See, in the LIBS mind, they can get ya' for excessive ammo possession, if not for anything else. This is one way for them to try and get around the backlash of just how much ammo a gun can hold.

Todd Juvinall

BenE once again shows the arrogance of a liberal buffoon. They are too stupid to know how ridiculous they sound (Constitutionally and p;practically) . But keep it up BenE, you are a textbook example of a "clueless" American voter.

Douglas Keachie

I suppose General Colin Powell doesn't understand the 2nd amendment as well as Greg and Todd?

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/21/colin-powell-the-second-amendment-calls-for-regulations-you-know/

Douglas Keachie

Exercise your right to CCM in FL and get busted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkclsB7M0g4

Gregory

Well, let's see: "The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause."

-Thus Spake SCOTUS in DC v. Heller

"A well-regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state" just announces a purpose for the second part. In short, it ain't about duck hunting and no, there is not a single item in the Bill of Rights that is an expansion of Federal power, including the 2nd. No, neither MSLSD or Gen. Powell have it right.

Douglas Keachie

"Well-regulated," and Lanza's mom was a member of what "well-regulated" militia? It's got the strangest interpretation of what behaviors are called for, in regards to keeping guns away from those she at least felt should be committed. BTW, Reed's locksmiths has some good deals on used and new safes these days.

Douglas Keachie

And another one bites the dust, and another "Keep" fails:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/21/albuquerque-teen-suspected-gunning-down-family-described-as-loner/?test=latestnews

Ryan Mount

> "Well-regulated," and Lanza's mom was a member of what "well-regulated" militia?

Just like the Citizen's United thing, Militias are made of people (citizens). It's not an abstraction. So in order to have a armed militia, we need to have armed citizens to make up that militia. One is predicated (literally here in the grammar of the 2nd Amendment) on the other.

And also just like the Citizen's United thing, if we are serious about gun control, and I believe we are substantively not, we are going to have to amend the Constitution to define specifically what guns people can have, and which they can not. Wondering out loud, I have to think someone as smart as Madison would have thought about that already. Why not exclude a cannon or a bombs which were around in the late 18th Century?

Douglas Keachie

"Why not exclude a cannon or a bombs which were around in the late 18th Century?" ~Ryan Mount~

Puzzlement here. Bombs and cannons are excluded under current laws. Is the NRA now arguing against those laws? An AR-15, with a maxi sized magazine, in the hands of someone who can pull the trigger as fast as possible, does an excellent rendition of a unidirectional bomb, with similar effects, in a very short span of time. When done, "There's no There, There." or living human beings.

Douglas Keachie

"In order to have a well regulated militia..." I note that the SIZE of the militia is not specified. Do we need to arm the kiddies an have one 310 million strong? Seems to me that 10 times the size of the current US of A armed forces should do. Certainly 20 million would do, out of 310 million folks. I think I read somewhere that there are 80 million gun owners in the US of A, so 3/4ters of them could lose their rights through one technicality or another or inability to afford insurance, and we'd still be able to come up with a 20 million person armed militia.

Tell me again how the lax system of laws and regulations that led to Sandy Hook and so many other tragedies, is the best we can do?

Ryan Mount

[face palm]

Doug, it's almost not worth dignifying such a misrepresentation of what I said with a response. I would appreciate it if you would be considerate and include things in context instead of being drawn to the dog whistle rhetoric. Tempting, I understand. Everyone is out to score a quick win these days.

However, since you've put me a defensive position, I'm not one to turn the other cheek.

1) If you want to undo the 2nd Amendment, you're gonna need to amend the Constitution. It's not a tricky proposition to understand. What's stopping the gun-reform crowd? (Answer: the answer to that is endless, as in non-stop, equivocations about things like "keep" and about what a "militia" is.)

Passing more laws that won't be enforced is not going to get us anywhere except for more gun sales, although not all of Obama's recent executive orders are unreasonable like universal/uniform background checks and increased research.

2) Regarding the cannon thing, the point was, Madison was no dummy. He was a hell of lot smarter than anyone in these blogs. And he and the country were surrounded by all kinds of weapons of mass destruction, for lack of a better term. Did Madison simply ignore them? Why not just say muskets instead of arms? That's what I was asking. It was a question, not an assertion.

Douglas Keachie

Well, we could just "Repeal the 2nd Amendment"....if you all are not careful, that's what will happen. Make up a bumper sticker, put it on obnoxious or poorly driven cars.

Douglas Keachie

On even numbered days, gun owners profess that the 2nd amendment is necessary so that they can form up as a militia to fight of the Russkis, or Chinese or Al Qaeda. On odd numbered days they claim it is so that they can make sure our existing government militia, AKA, Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force, stays "well regulated." Two wildly different interpretations for that part of the 2nd, but, boy, try messing with the "shall not be infringed" part and that means only one thing, "We keep our guns, and the public keeps Sandy Hook." And they ignore the fact that the military can buy all the guns of the citizens, for less than two weeks of their yearly budget.

Douglas Keachie

You want to arm me? Good. Then arm me with a school psychologist at my school who has time to do more than test and sit in meetings about testing.

Arm me with enough counselors so we can build skills to prevent violence, have meaningful discussions with students about their future and not merely frantically adjust student schedules like a Jenga game.

Arm me with social workers who can thoughtfully attend to a student's and her family's needs so I. Can. Teach.

Arm me with enough school nurses so that they are accessible to every child and can work as a team with me rather than operate their offices as de facto urgent care centers.

Arm me with more days on the calendar for teaching and learning and fewer days for standardized testing.

Arm me with class sizes that allow my colleagues and I to know both our students and their families well.

Arm my colleagues and I with the time it takes to improve together and the time it takes to give great feedback to students about their work and progress.

Until you arm me to the hilt with what it will take to meet the needs of an increasingly vulnerable student population, I respectfully request you keep your opinions on schools and our safety to yourself NRA. Knock it off.

-Mary Cathryn Ricker, President of the St. Paul Federation of Teachers.

This was shared on my wall today. I thought I would share it with you and I hope you share it with others.

Douglas Keachie

In case yesterday's "Adventures in Educatyion" in Texas didn't amuse you enough, try this: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/23/ca-school-district-buys-14-military-grade-weapons-to-defend-against-shootings/

George Rebane

DougK 857am - Huh??!!

900am - Until she gets 'armed' with all those prophylactics whose cost is trans-astronomical, in the interval she might consider a legal gun or two on campus. And we note again that the progressive response is ever more government of demonstrated ineffectiveness, and never an attempt to re-culturate ourselves to behaviors that then benefited all and did not annihilate the public purse.

922am - the piece is only amusing in the sense of the lamestream's continued ignorance about firearms (the liberal chorus across the land just acts as an echo chamber). The offending ARs were neither "military grade" nor "high caliber". But they would be effective against any shooter(s) attempting to replicate Newtown. The policy of their use is the final determinant.

Douglas Keachie

If they are not "military grade" there goes the argument in favor of the citizens regulating the US of A armed forces.

George Rebane

DougK 1137am - You have totally lost me. Wiser heads than mine need to continue this thread.

Douglas Keachie

Frankly, those who go on and on about either martyrdom via taking out our armed forces, or by the other interpretation, taking out the armed forces of a foreign invader, are simply out to enjoy the glow of pre-martyrdom adulation among themselves. In the second case, they might have something of a helper effect. Local citizens do have one advantage, they know the local terrain. In the first case, the argument has been made that the US of A armed forces would turn on the government that tried to get them to attack the citizens of the USA. If that is the case, the US of A armed forces will be doing the job handily, and the citizens do not need to get hurt, trying to do a Pros job, with amateur equipment.

JesusBetterman

I think a pair of cops, carefully concealed, at opposites of every school in SoCal, would be a good idea until this nutcase is eliminated or locked up. Put inflatable dummies in uniform in the police car and park it on the street, if it is safe to attract fire without collateral damage. In twelve hours (if he's using backroads) we might have to do the same in NorCal.

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