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07 February 2013

Comments

Brad Croul

I do not concur that the 'Lapsed Status' group is a subset of Illegal Inhabitants.

Lapsed Status should be a subset of Legal Aliens that became illegal when their visas lapsed and not renewed. I would connect Lapsed Statue to Legal Aliens with a green line to Naturalized if they meet certain requirements, or with a yellow line to fugitives if they cannot, or do not register as wanting to stay in the country.

US Inhabitants to Illegal Inhabitants should be connected with a red line. But, if an Illegal Inhabitant (FIE) marries a US Citizen (has children, a job, is buying a house, etc.), then a green line should be connected from Illegal Inhabitant to Naturalization.

The "Back of the Line" idea is only good for those with exactly the same traits. People who already here, own homes, have children, jobs, etc. should not be at the back of line with some 18 year old, single person, who would like to come to the US to work.

A person who is willing to smuggle themselves across the border to make a new life shows them to be motivated, willing to sacrifice, take chances, and other positive attributes, and should be treated as positives on their immigration "resume".

Account Deleted

Gee, Brad - bank robbers that are motivated, and make plans and take chances, risk their lives (or risk being arrested) are good people? These folks planned (and did) break the law. By living and working here, they continue to break the law. They should receive no benefits, and should not be allowed to work here. As soon as they see they aren't ever going to get jobs or bennies, they will self-deport. The back of the line starts in the country they came from. I'd love to have just one person explain why the govt should pass laws and then not enforce them based on skin color.

Brad Croul

Scott, Not even a close comparison. Get a grip, they are already here, working, paying bills, purchasing goods, supporting the economy.

Paul Emery

George
CAn you elaborate on what this means? Does this mean you leave your kilts and burqas at the border?

"Foreigners will receive no special dispensation with regards to their cultural or other social needs that are at variance with America’s norms and customs"

Paul Emery

One more question George as far as the payment of taxes, fee's etc. Does that also mean that employers who have been hiring illegals and paying them under the table shoule also be held accountable for back payments of social security and other payroll taxes?

Walt

Paul.... Hear the latest of just "who" was hiring, and paying under the table? ( in PESOS no less!) It's one of those "green" companies!
"Bloom, a manufacturer of solid oxide fuel cells, has been paying 14 workers brought to the United States from Chihuahua, Mexico less than $3 per hour for refurbishing work performed at the company headquarters in Sunnyvale."
According to a press release from the Labor Department, Bloom Energy brought the workers in from Mexico to refurbish power generators alongside U.S. workers. Federal investigators found that the workers were paid in Mexican pesos the equivalent of $2.66 per hour. The FLSA requires that covered, nonexempt employees be paid at least the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour for all hours worked. California minimum wage is $8 per hour."

It would be fun to see just how much was handed out by "O" and Co.
No wonder LIBS want an open and free Southern boarder. They need all the cheap labor they can get.
But as usual the farmers will stay in the Libby cross hairs where "cheap labor" is concerned.

Paul Emery

Walt
Is that some kind of astounding revelation? That's what capitalism is all about. Get the job done at the cheapest price. My question still remains. Will the employers as well as the illegals be required to pony up on back taxes and fee's in Georges immigration plan.

Can you send me a link to the Press Release. Interesting story.

Account Deleted

Yes Brad - a very close comparison. Many folks that break the law fit your EXACT description. So why do you feel we can pick and choose who gets to break the law? What happened to equal protection under the law? Anyone who supports the economy can break the laws? Or just some laws you make up? How does this work?

Walt

News about the newest killer on the loose,, ( that x-cop) well, once again
it's another twisted off LIB. He's a BIG "O" supporter too. But NO WAY would you take MY word for it, so here you will find his manifesto that he posted.
Funny how the cops wanted most of that redacted by the news outlets. I wonder why???

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/07/fired-lapd-cop-praised-obama-piers-morgan-gun-control-ripped-the-nra-in-portions-of-supposed-manifesto-redacted-at-lapds-request/

JesusBetterman

So we've pretty much already agreed that he is crazy, Walt. Would it really make any difference if he support Ted Nugent? Perhaps he does, and just wants to discredit the Left, so he writes his support of Obama, and conveniently hijacked you onto his cause. Gun control is certainly not evident in his actions, now is it?

I could just as well argue that he is extreme Christian literalist, visiting pain onto the offspring, to spite the adult he really had a beef with. I'm sure there are tons of verses of that sort of stuff floating around the Bible. Don't see you writing about the cops that nearly wasted three folks in "similar" trucks. Thank God mine is painted white. Even though his was gray/blue/black, and now burned beyond recognition, the word probably hasn't reached everybody yet. What do you want to bet he had another vehicle ready to go at the ski area, and could even be in Sacramento by now?

Walt

So Paul,, The ball is in YOUR court. Lets hear YOUR grand plan to
curb illegal boarder jumpers. How will you keep that money from heading South? How do you plan to keep them from voting in OUR elections?
( No,, they don't have some presumed right to vote just because they are here)
And they are far from just "taking the jobs no U.S. citizen will do".
And it's not just Mexicans. They are here from every nation on the globe, just to be "fair".

Hear how many hospitals that have gone under in SoCal just because of illegals?

George Rebane

PaulE 144pm - Heavens no. They get to retain their cultural customs as long as they require no deference or deviations under our laws as they apply to all Americans. Butt stupidity such a Florida school removing Old Glory from classrooms because it may offend Muslim students would stop. Drivers license photos would display the full face and hair. And no honor killings of their own children. Etc, etc. Lawful celebrations and traditional observances can be held in private enclaves or public places so long as they require no special dispensation that are not provided to other ethnic groups. (In Indiana in the 1950s the region's Estonians reserved and rented a part of Brown County State Park for their summer solstice celebration that always includes a very large bonfire through which young men leap to show of their courage and prowess to the young ladies. All this was permitted to Estonians as it was to the Irish or Poles or even the Shriners. Such celebrations and observances were always discreet, and never in your face to any native Americans.)

147pm - YES; good point.

BradC 653am - Not sure that you understand the diagram re 'lapsed status' since those people all started out as legals and migrated to illegals when they violated the conditions of remaining legal.

Your willingness to provide special naturalization dispensation for having been a successful fugitive is at odds with my values. And lauding the same FIEs for having taken a risk and made extra effort to break our laws carries no weight with me no matter their subsequent life in America. I would then have to equally absolve robbers and thieves who avoided capture and then used their loot to get married, buy a house, have children, and contribute to charities.

Walt

Dougy, This is a good reason NOT to allow cops special exceptions for certain firearms and extended magazines, which by state law allows them to personally buy. ( how come they are not police issue?)
Need a little proof? Go up to The Range and look in their display case.
30 round AR15 magazines are there for "police officer" purchase ONLY.
There is no law that I know of that makes ex cops turn those in.
The same for hand guns. Cops get special treatment there too. But no mention
of why they can keep those weapons after they leave the force.
Obviously this needs to be fixed.
We have a cop with some screws loose. Ya' think he's the only one?

ONE person that was NOT a cop goes on a killing spree, and all us law abiding citizens need to pay that price in a anti gun Libby's eye.
" Restrict ownership of this, ban ownership of that."
But now that it's a lone cop and not a lone civilian,, That's different.
Sorry Dougy,, it's another guy with a "D" next to his name that
s a trigger puller, and a killer of innocent people.

Walt

Now the cops are shooting first and asking questions later????

Looking for this loose cannon, cops shoot two women delivering newspapers.
The truck they were in looks like what Bonny and Clyde were riding in.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-cop-manhunt-newspaper-delivery-women-shot.html

And some call us gun rights supporters nuts?

George Rebane

Gentlemen, what in hell does a rogue cop and gun control have to do with immigration reform? Your important dialogue needs to embellish this post
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/01/gun-control-2013.html
or this
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/01/military-helicopters-over-south-houston.html

JesusBetterman

Sorry Walt, you're not making sense. As near as I can tell, you are arguing that "All killers have screws loose and are Dems." What do you suppose the voter registrations are for the cops that shot up the pickups? More Dems?

Paul Emery

Walt

You're all over the place on this wanting me to respond to things I didn't comment on. I didn't attempt to have an overall solution to this problem and greatly appreciate Georges stab at a very complex problem, Press release link please to your contention. "According to a press release from the Labor Department....."

Paul Emery

George
Thanks for giving this a look.
This is sure a complex issue when it comes to paying past taxes and fee's. For an illegal to come clean he would have to provide details about past employment which would of course involve lots of who's and whens. There are lots of Arnolds out there who would have to answer questions about whether they knew their house-yard helpers were illegal. Mostly these people are paid cash under the table so it could get pretty messy. I know of several construction contractors here in Nevada County who trucked in illegals to work all night on their developments. They'd van them back before dawn to Sacramento, We hired a well known local contractor to do some work on our water system a few years ago and none of the hole diggers could speak English. That's pretty much the way that business has been done for the last 30 years so it's an ingrained operation procedure with a long tradition.

Gerry Fedor

George,

Thanks for these points! While I agree with many of them, I have to actually wonder how such a program would be implemented, and how both the Right and Left Politicians would agree with any of these ideas?


I like many of these ideas, but I would like to see something that the world best educated and the smartest people get to move to the front of the line, as I have a very well educated Sikh friend who has been waiting for a visa for 3.5 years, and he will be waiting for another 1.5 years as he's playing by the rule, when this guy could have snuck in thru Canada/Mexico (like many do).

The only question I have is how we will pay for this type of program (maybe it should pay for itself?).

Thanks for your view on this issue.

Walt

Wow Paul,, it sounds like you condone the practice.
So did you report it? Did you run the contractor off like you should have? That may be "your" tradition,, but not for anyone I worked for.

With unemployment in the state in double digit numbers, businesses that can are leaving putting even more people out of work, we just have to accept and "deal with it" ,,when it comes to boarder jumpers?
Sorry,, They have no business being here and taking jobs away from people like me.

Brad Croul

George, Steve, what are illegal immigrants stealing? Are they stealing jobs, social services, or..? 
Assuming that, are all employers that hire illegals just begging to be robbed.
 Isn't an American who goes to the emergency room, and doesn't pay, also stealing? What should be his punishment?
How many lawbreakers that do no violence to anyone, get the kind of, black or white, justice you propose? Should we deal the same kind of harsh punishment you demand for people sneak across borders to those who sneak into drive- in movie theaters. I mean, hell, that is just as bad a grave robbing, right?

Don't even convicts get, "time off for good behavior"?
Your responses illustrate (to me) what Governor Jindal thinks is wrong with the Republican party. "We as Republicans need to reject identity politics, reject this divisiveness, and instead appeal to what really unites us as Americans," Jindal said.

From your responses, I get the feeling that you guys would like to ride shotgun (with your beloved shotguns) on the busses taking all of the "paperless people" out of their homes, jobs and schools, and kicking them to the border. Uniters you are not!

Your flow chart still looks wrong to me. You don't get to "lapsed status" from "illegal immigrant".

Paul Emery

Walt

Documentation please for the Press Release. Otherwise I'll assume you made it up.

Perhaps it is the right thing to do to ask for the green cards of workers contractors provide for jobs. Thanls for setting a moral threshold for us to attain. I'm humbled by your righteousness.

.

George Rebane

GerryF 654pm - thanks for the nudges Gerry. I think your concern about the "world's best educated and smartest people" moving to the head of the line is addressed in #11.

BradC 712pm - while I don't follow any of your criminal equivalencies, I can confirm that you don't understand the diagram. When an individual's immigrant status lapses, it is that event which changes the immigrant into an illegal immigrant - i.e. if you let your immigrant status lapse, you reclassified as an illegal immigrant.

BTW, this also makes it clear that FIEs were never immigrants to begin with, but might become so if an immigration reform bill with the described provisions becomes law.

JesusBetterman

When Greg loses the argument (Yuba River Charter School) George erases the evidence. Cute!

Paul Emery

JB

Explain this???

Gerry Fedor

George - I would also like to see how these ideas will protect themselves, as we all know that SSI was a great idea for the time it was developed, but with people now living 15 years longer its seemed to be a program that has zero chance of sustaining itself in the long run, so I'd want there to be some type of modification mechanism built into any type of legislation.

George Rebane

JesusB 1020pm - I haven't a clue what you are talking about Doug. But what you are accusing me of is very clear and unacceptable. When I have removed a comment, it has always been announced and done for cause - overwhelmingly to stop mudball fights and ad hominem attacks.

Your accusation is about the lowest sleaze I can think of directed at anyone who runs a forum where ALL ideas can contend, and it is beyond the pale. Such an accusation condemns my integrity and the integrity of RR. We all know that TypePad sometimes blows away comments or does not post them from the text box where they are composed. If you have a problem with your comments, then tell me about it.

Doug, I expect an apology or we're really going to miss you around here.

George Rebane

GerryF 600am - Agreed. Almost all legislation is written to be synoptic, yet the lion's share of it winds up being topical. And as such becomes 'friction' or worse, egregious, on the land. Recognizing the topical nature from the outset, as you suggest, recommends writing sunset clauses into such legislation. These could be time or contingency based with such sunsetting contingencies spelled out at the start. I'm sure this would not solve all such problems with laws going sour, but it would be a good start. Moreover, it would make it plain to all that no legislature is located on Mount Olympus.

JesusBetterman

I know for a fact that I published a lot of stuff with images that merely illustrated the actual standings of YRCS in the state API race, and I've gone back well into December and can't find a bit of it. There's nothing ad hominem about publishing:

YubaRiverCharterAPI copy

or:

YubaRiverCharterSchool copy

JesusBetterman

I'm all in favor of sunsetting whatever it is that keeps stock transactions from being taxed, the EPA from checking water quality at fracking sites, and all oil depletion allowances, established to keep oil companies from going broke. I don't think the oil companies are having any problems in that department lately.

Joe Koyote

Nationally the charter schools seem to do worse in the standardized testing arena as a whole when compared to private and traditional public schools. I personally think the charters are vampires sucking the funds out of the public schools so the elite can coddle their children and avoid making contact with low-life kids and their media inspired behavior in the public schools while the taxpayers subsidize their education. The teachers don't have to be credentialed and they are paid significantly less, so one could question the quality of instruction if they so desired. If you want a private education, pay for it yourself, otherwise your kids get the same schools as everyone else. Bias and favoritism often hide under the cloak of equality and fairness. For example, why should opinions and ideas held by 1/3 of the population get equal play to those of the other 2/3 under the guise of fairness and equality? Fairness means they should get only 1/3, otherwise it creates the false impression that those ideas are somehow equal in weight, which they are not.

JesusBetterman

"For example, why should opinions and ideas held by 1/3 of the population get equal play to those of the other 2/3 under the guise of fairness and equality? Fairness means they should get only 1/3, otherwise it creates the false impression that those ideas are somehow equal in weight, which they are not." ~Koyote~ 10:09


Examples? This seems entirely too vague.

Joe Koyote

JB-Take any issue, gun control, climate change, fracking, etc. etc. Often conservative opinion is in the minority when compared to the population as a whole, yet those ideas and values get the same amount of coverage in the media as the more predominate viewpoint creating the impression that those ideas have more of a following then they do in actuality, thus falsely skewing the public's perception. I call it the 50 yardline factor. What was once considered middle of the road is now skewing to the right moving the actual 50 yard line to the 35. Nixon was considered a conservative, yet he started the EPA, title 9, and other policies that would now be deemed liberal. The result is that issues that should be a slam dunk become vague and contentious when politicized which is exactly what special interests want, confusion among the electorate.

JesusBetterman

You mean the advertisers are supporting Rush for his political views, and not for the return on their advertising dollars? Or that LA news sources spend too much time backing the PD point of view in regards the rogue cops past background? Love the emphasis on Neon sneakers when order to get black or white. At his size, finding shoe that fit and wear well for hiking running may be a challenge.

George Rebane

JesusB 922am - I take it from this comment that not only are you not going to rescind your baseless charges, but you've doubled down and are now calling me a liar. Good-bye Doug.

George Rebane

JoeK 1009am - I'm sorry, but I missed your explanation about why the better off (rich?) parents are sending their kids to schools that do a poorer job of educating them than do the regular public schools.

Gregory

George, 1:31, welcome to the club. He's a serial blog vandal.

What happened to Keach is that he lost the thread he'd posted that graphic to... it's on the Takers vs Makers discussion, and yes, he interpreted it wrong. Feel free to peruse it there.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/01/takermaker-ratios.html?cid=6a00e54f86f2ad8833017ee856cfdd970d#comment-6a00e54f86f2ad8833017ee856cfdd970d

George Rebane

Gregory 148pm - Thanks Greg. But what you point out makes his outrage worse. He can't keep track of his own screeds, and immediately charges me with some very sleazy blog management practices, and instead of contrition he ups the ante.

We discuss and debate some very heavy duty topics on RR, and we come together to share and promote perspectives and beliefs that often are widely at variance. That is the purpose of this forum.

However, for such exchanges to be successful, each of us must also up the level of respect we have for each other as individuals, no matter how misguided we think their arguments are. But if we believe our ideological opposites to be scoundrels to boot, what is the purpose then of suffering a debate with such people?

Gregory

"But if we believe our ideological opposites to be scoundrels to boot, what is the purpose then of suffering a debate with such people?"

Keachie has made it clear that smearing me is one of his life's goals, and I've never quite been clear what the upside of letting him do it here actually is. I suffer it to have a voice here and to counter his defamations.

Walt

Speaking of "he who shall not be named",,, He spouted off not long ago
about there will never be gun confiscation. Well,,, Right here in good ol CA.,,
that's the new bill.( among many other anti gun proposed bills)
Th Constitution is just about meaningless here in Ca. From boarder protection to this. It's us citizens that are becoming enemies of the state.

"Democrats rolled out a massive gun control package on Thursday, which includes strict ammunition regulations and even a bill that allows potential confiscation of the state’s 166,000 legally registered semi-automatic rifles.

Under the sweeping gun control bills introduced by state Senate Democrats, all semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines would be banned, all guns would be registered and gun owners would need a special permit just to buy ammunition."

That's just a taste of the plan. It gets worse from there.

But back to he who shall not be named,,, Will he willing turn in his? All because the people he voted for said so?

There are a few programs on the boob tube showing what our boarder agents go through. They show the busts, how much was seized, and sometimes show how one of the bad guys that got busted as a mule, gets cut loose.
Illegal immigration is one of those laws "O" has discretion of enforcing.
He needs all the new constituants he can get.

Paul Emery

How did we morf into gun control?

L

Folks, I've been saying for weeks that Keachie creates new identies regularly. George's dumping his comments means nada. Joe Koyote (think about it) is just another Keachie sock puppet. Personally, but for the ad homs, I'd keep Keach around as a daily demonstration of just how insane 'rue believers" in communism really are. That this asshat is allowed to teach in your public schools should concern everyone.

Keach has a couple other tags on this blog also. Keep the eyes open and you'll identify them. L

Joe Koyote

L -- You've busted me.. but I am not a Keachie sock puppet.. I am Obama's sock puppet sent here to get names for deportation to the re-education camps that are being planned for the socialist revolution. Paranoia strikes deep, think about it. Also think about the fact that you are totally wrong. Perhaps some of your fear based political assumptions are wrong as well.

Gregory

Doug Keachie, your "stuff" never disappeared on the T vs M thread, you just couldn't find it. [Unfortunately, the comment of Doug's that Greg refers to has been unpublished, along with all his other comments that post date his ignoring of my 131pm on 'Immigration Reform ... 2'. gjr]

Brad Croul

George, regarding your graph, you only see one way for legal aliens with lapsed status - fugitive, with I assume, subsequent deportation.

I could see a dashed green line between lapsed status and legal aliens (or even illegal aliens to legal aliens); a statute of limitations, if you will (similar to what we have for the crimes of grave robbing and bank robbing), for those who have been living here for a long time (10-20 years), raising families, working, renting or buying homes, etc. (contingent on felony-free arrest record, etc.)

George Rebane

BradC 1126am - Not at all, the graph captures all contingencies in going from legal alien to fugitive. And because it has the obligatory mediating node of 'lapsed status', that indicates that the immigrants legal status can be reinstated. The only reason the arrows are one way is because of simplicity; the graph's purpose is primarily to show a reasonably complete assemblage of US inhabitants, their taxonomy re legality, and the main paths of how some one becomes a fugitive illegal alien. It is easy to add low probability contingencies with more arrows going here and there, but that will divert us from the main points that concern the discussion of immigration policy and the categories of people that it must cover.

It is clear that each category of inhabitant can be broken down further along any dimension of current attributes or past history. And when we discuss different policy aspects, then such complexification may be in order, but not at this stage because your historical credentials for fugitives may not become a factor. In my '... Correct Solution 2' (q.v.) such considerations are included. (Was diversion your intent, or do you claim that the graph does not capture a material aspect required in the discussion?)

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