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09 February 2013

Comments

TheMikeyMcD

Summary (of which I completely agree):

Our godverment is stockpiling weapons to use against us subjects.

Get technical education or get in the unemployment line.

Obamacare is horrible (drastic understatement).

TheMikeyMcD

My heart is heavy this morning as I catch up on news. I know of no generation that could be more bitter than a Vietnam draftee who was told he was fighting against a political system focused on the collective... only to see America stricken with the collectivism cancer. Sincerely sad.


news: FDA guard shoots 15 yr old boy (why the hell does FDA have armed guards? and why would said guard fire upon a kid when his life is not in danger?) How can the left deny the 2nd amendment and all facts when they can't remember a day in 'gun free zone' Chicago without murders? Thank God for men like Dr. Ben Carson for calling out Obamacare to Obama's face...

Joe Koyote

Speaking of health issues.. for those of you who think the Tea Party imagery is something new:
http://yubanet.com/usa/Tea-Party-39-s-Ties-to-Tobacco-Industry-Date-Back-to-1980s-UCSF-Study-Shows.php

Joe Koyote

George- Please define "universally recognized"? Recognized by whom? How many? What is the credibility of these "universal" people? Are they economists, bloggers, talk show hosts, researchers for special interest think tanks, clowns from Barnum and Bailey? Why is it that the GAO has stated on numerous occasions that republican-care (called Obamacare by conservatives after they stonewalled most of its provisions until they got what the health industry wanted, then when it was a done deal, they voted NO so they could criticize it and blame Obama for what a piece of crap it is) will actually save the government money?

Steve Frisch

Joe, it means recognized somewhere in the know universe, right?

Account Deleted

The jobs landscape has always been a changing one. The big difference is the rate of change. It was glacial for centuries but now is accelerating at quite a good clip. You can go back about 3 hundred years and see that most skills needed then are just curiosities now. What remains? I doubt that robotics will replace humans at the world's oldest profession, although there are folks working at such creations. Perhaps there will be a place for automatons in the sex trade, but I predict it won't make much of a change until we've had quite a leap forward at churning out really adept (and physically attractive) machinery with a low TCO. The next oldest profession looks pretty similar even with the addition of modern tech. A court room from the 1700's has the same basic actors that we see at present. Food production - now we're in a whole different ball park. On the ground, far fewer humans are required and the numbers are dropping fast. Many more jobs are needed in genetics, chemistry and food processing, but overall a lot less folks are working to get dinner on the table. George has gone over the changes in design and production of most of the "stuff" we get at the store or show room. In the last 50 or 60 years this is where we have seen (and experienced) the biggest change. It happened mostly within our lifetime and remnants of that sort of old rust belt are still around as a pointed reminder of 'the way things were'. Only a primary level education was necessary and you had a good paying job for life. It was doomed from the start by it's very reasons for existence. But folks (mostly on the left) decry it's passing as the root of all our economic problems. It was really a chimera kept afloat by oppression of some groups and a blip in history that has come and gone. Economists such as Paul Krugman wax lyrically about those times and how we should return to them. The left loves to espouse and indoctrinate our young in Darwinian evolution, but when it comes to actually getting to grips with the reality of the quick and the dead, they have dreams of other outcomes. The bowl of water that finds it's own level equally around the rim is the lefts' dream for humanity. Unfortunately, this can never be and attempts to make it so at what ever govt level results in some form of tyranny. God gave us bodies to be worked and a brain to be used. A quick scan of the human condition shows widely varying talents and abilities of our physiques and our craniums. There will always be jobs for the ones who keep sharp and keep educating themselves. Having good inter-personal skills and humbling yourself to work the needed task at hand has always been a plus. We should always be looking out for our neighbor, but letting the govt take over that job makes us slaves to the govt. I know that our friends on the left will counter-post that I am advocating making ourselves slaves to private industry, but they have never come up with any kind of example of how that is so if we have a free market of both goods and services. Life has always been in flux and there has always been change. We need to adapt to the ever-increasing pace. To force, via the govt, a slower pace sets us up for ruin.

George Rebane

ScottO 1115am - Well said Scott, couldn't have done better myself.

JoeK 955pm - Please see today's update to the post.

Russ Steele

Joe@9:55PM

The left tried to tie the climate change skeptics to the tobacco lobby and you can see how well that turned out. This claim about the Tea Party will turnout just about the same, as in the end the truth is more powerful that most lefty smears. It may take time, but the truth wins.

By the way, you may want to sign up to some of the Tea Party Newsletter, or come and attend some of the local meetings. You will find out the crap you read on your liberal/progressive blogs is truly bovine cow pies!

Walt

Now that the light of day is shining bright on the entire Obummercaretax,
it's not as great as "O" and Co. said it was. ( Those with just a lick of common sense knew that from the start.) It's now going to cost triple, if not quadruple, as the blind and dumb bean counters estimated.
Remember what "O" said?? " Your insurance will actually go down in cost, because everyone will be paying in." Well.... Funny how just the reverse has happened.
Business has taken a big hit too. Remember that 40hr week? It's now a 30hr. week.( Thank You Obummercare)
Liberal Government meddling at it's best. Even the unions that got suckered into backing it are finding out their waiver has run out and get to pay full freight. YUP!,, their howling mad too. ( I can say,, " You were warned,,, now deal with it.)
The only ones still singing it praise, are the ones that have no money to tax in the first place and get that free care.

Steve Frisch

The problem Russ is that there are clear links between the Koch brothers and their long time supported organizations, the Mercatus Center and Citizens for a Sound Economy, and those organizations denial of both climate science and tobacco science.

The key link has been not just the organizations themselves taking active roles in those positions, but the key Koch staff member, Richard Fink, who not only helped found both, but has sat on the board of no less than 3 Koch brothers foundations, serving as the President of two, while they have simultaneously funded pro-tobacco and anti AGW science.

Fink later helped to found Americans for Prosperity, and has remained active in their decision-making process, including during their support for various Tea Party factions.

Fink also helped broker an alliance amongst think tanks to support Phillip Morris' defense of litigation claiming big tobacco had hidden information from federal agencies. That alliance included not only Mercatus and CSE, but the Heritgae Foundation and the Cato Institute, both at times heavily Koch funded entities.

For several years, Fink acted as a advocate for big tobacco, including a 1985 letter to most members of Congress urging that they, eliminate the US Tobacco Program. In the hand-signed letter, he wrote: “Dear Representative: On behalf of the 220,000 members of Citizens for a Sound Economy, I urge you to consider the heavy costs of the U.S. tobacco program [a tax to do education about the dangers of smoking], and the enormous benefits to consumers and taxpayers which would result from the elimination of that program.”

Richard Fink aligned not only himself but the entire membership of CSE with the interests of Big Tobacco.

In 1988, Fink wrote to the Surgeon General to express concern about the Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health’s inquiries into the subject of tobacco and U.S. trade policy. He warned that it would be unwise to suggest any foreign trade barriers, ending, “we hope that you will keep these thoughts in mind as your department discusses U.S. trade policy toward tobacco.”

This letter was tracked down by the Checks & Balances Project in the Tobacco Archives, with an addendum from Samuel Chilcote – President of The Tobacco Institute – urging others to follow Fink’s lead and support.

For Fink’s efforts, Chilcote thanked Fink in a hand-signed letter on behalf of the tobacco industry, writing, “When an advisory body such as the Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health ventures into the field of U.S. trade policy, it is vitally important that the public record be balanced by the sound economic views and sensible business judgments that you provided.”

The more one digs, the more one finds the connections. Now lets be clear, I don't believe there is anything wrong with private individuals supporting private organizations, or having strong opinions, but, as some here have reminded me, strong opinions mean the responsibility to defend them, not deny them.

The Koch's and their octopus are prime funders of the climate denial machine, they were prime funders of big tobacco, and they the are using the same tactics in the climate debate that they used in the tobacco debate.

http://www.desmogblog.com/koch-industries-inc

Russ Steele

Steven@07:58

I was interested in what you had to say until my mentioned the highly discredited desmogblog as the source, and then I realized it was another one of your cut and paste jobs. Desmog has a serious issue with the truth, they do not know what it is. There credibility is so low that no one is reading them anymore, except maybe you and a few hanger on'ers. DeSmog broke the fake Heartland story and supported Peter Gleick in his theft of the Institute document and the creation of a fake internal memo. Details here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/03/15/desmog-blog-headed-back-to-obscurity/

You can redeem your credibility by providing the number to back up your claim: "The Koch's and their octopus are prime funders of the climate denial machine, they were prime funders of big tobacco, and they the are using the same tactics in the climate debate that they used in the tobacco debate."

Show me some credible numbers to prove this is also not another DeSmog lie!

Russ Steele

Opps "until you mentioned" i n the first line.

Gregory

"Climate denial machine"... really, Frish, the money spent by the likes of Koch, Inc., estimated by Greenpeace to be an average of $4 million a year since '97 is a pittance (on the order of 0.1%) compared to the over $80 *billion* spent by governments, primarily the US, to try to establish CO2 as a driver of the climate so they could justify massive taxes against any carbon bearing fuel, the primary business of the Koch's. Despite the massive imbalance, climate alarmism is as stalled as the temperature record, which hasn't seen statistically significant warming for 16+ years now.

The most dire predictions of the IPCC AR4 are being walked back in AR5, and 18 years after the IPCC Chair denounced Denmark's Henrik Svensmark for being "naive and irresponsible" for blabbing about his research, which, by the way, now has stronger experimental evidence behind it than the general circulation computer models which are the bulk of the evidence for future catastrophe. Even James Hansen had to write in a paper in January that the 5 year smoothed terrestrial temperature record has been flat for 10 years...

The so-called "denial machine" is winning, and it's because of the fundamental weakness of alarmist science.


Gerry Fedor

I'm trying to "understand" the logic about absolutely no controls on guns as wouldn't that be like why is the world working to keep atomic weapons from Iran or North Korea......

Isn't there a parallel concept here, or should these countries be allowed to get these weapons?

Account Deleted

'I'm trying to "understand" the logic about absolutely no controls on guns'
Who is advocating that? Iran and N Korea both have govts that threaten war on a regular basis. Anyone who threatens their neighbors shouldn't have access to guns or even sharp knives. Responsible, law abiding folk can have any weapon they want as far I'm concerned.

Gregory

Gerry, in the USA there are something like 20,000 regulations concerning guns on the books now. The issue isn't whether there should be none, the argument is over whether there should be 19,000 or 21,000.

Steve Frisch

Yeah well Russ, if you actually read my comments and then went to DeSmog you would see that they are not the same source. My primary source was the Checks and Balances Project, which is a non-profit investigative reporting initiative that specializes in energy and western land issues.

However, lets be even more pointed, I don't always depend upon sources; often what I post is my own aggregated knowledge from years of reading about these issues....I don't have to rely solely on cited sources about the right wing think tanks supporting big tobacco, I was there, I remember it, I watched it on CSPAN, and watched many of the same people rsh to the 'climate denial' industry, and I watched it happen in real life.

This nonsense about "cut and paste" jobs is just a cheap bullish*t critique. Everyone who posts here depends upon a combination of sources they see or seek out in the media and academia and their personal experience either living or working in a field. That's what this is all about. That is how people form ideas and opinions. 80% of what you post on your site is cut and paste from newspapers or from blogs....I don't try to discredit you because you use other sources...I try to make you defend the findings. So I will ask you the same thing....I posted specific information about the links between Richard Fink, big tobacco, and the Koch brothers and climate denial...what part of what I posted is not true? Cite your source!

We all read, and read a variety of sources. I am on the Heartland Institute site as often as I am on the Pacific Institute site...and guess what? The Pacific Institute has a hell of a lot more peer reviewed science in a year then Heartland has had in its entire history. I also read climate denial reports...which are serially misrepresenting what the science is saying and parroted by all of you over here by the way...in order to understand what the Watt's of the world think.

The issue I brought up however was not climate science, and I don't want to fall for yours [and by default Greg's] diversionary tactics; the issue is the role of 'think tanks' and their leadership in shaping the dialogue, and on that I am dead on correct.

Steve Frisch

Regarding George's updated comment that the 'liberal media' (which is owned by corporate giants) wants the American public to believe that, "the tea parties are history, pay no attention to the little burble they caused in 2010, everything is back under control" I say, HELL NO, let the war continue!

The 'war' is not between the 'left', which is really the center, and the Tea Parties, which are really fascists; it is between the Tea Parties and the establishment Republicans, as evidenced by Karl Rove's new venture. The war is the same war fought within the Republican party since Goldwater said, "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice". Extremism, evidenced by the Tea Party through their adoption of crackpot candidates like Akin, Palin, Murdock and O'Donnell, is WELCOME to fight the establishment Republicans to the death; the more they do, the more power the center (democrats) will gain.

So I say, fight on Tea Party Patriots; your fight leads to my victory!

Russ Steele

Steven@06:43AM

You wrote: "The Pacific Institute has a hell of a lot more peer reviewed science "

The reality is the Pacific Institute has more pall reviewed science than the Heartland Institute.

In 2009 I caught the Pacific Institute cherry picking data to validate their projection of sea level rise. Details here:
http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2009/03/let-the-sea-level-debate-begin-again.html

Then they admitted to be using un-validated models in their reports to the State of California Department of Energy.

The Pacific Institute are just global warming hacks, using tax payer money to promote an AGW hoax.

Steve Frisch

Ah well Russ, I see you can't actually address my original point...that the 'thinkers' who supported big tobacco are the same 'thinkers' who are denying anthropogenic climate change. .....but that's OK...because showing people that you are only capable of diversionary tactics was my real goal!

George Rebane

It seems that the message from the Left re the tea parties is a bit mixed. Some are saying the movement is dead, others claim that it's alive, well, and still funded by sinister forces, others (e.g. SteveF) are pointing to internecine war between rightwing factions, etc. What's a body to believe from those astute observers of our political scene? But until things shake out, we tea partiers shouldn't be too worried. There must be some life left in us, else they wouldn't be paying so much attention.

(Fascists??!!)

Russ Steele

Steven@08:29AM,

I am not going to get sucked in to your argument. Arguing about who are the proper skeptics is a diversion that I am not going to spend any energy on. You made a stupid claim, see George's update, that does not change the facts. The AGW contribution to warming is so small that it is not worth worrying about. AGW as promoted by the left is akin to a hoax. After 20 year none of the models have proven to have any skill in predicting future climate. The AGW cult, which you appear to be member, are unable to address the facts, the warming has stops and cooling is beginning, yet the CO2 continues to increase. Any person or reasonable intelligence can see that CO2 sensitivity is extremely low.

Walt

I call your Koch Bros. and raise you one George Soros, and one Warren Buffet as a side bet. ( the longer the Keystone pipeline is stalled, the more money will be loaded onto that oil train for the return trip. "Thanks "O" my good ol' pal.
The last two cars are yours.")

Walt

BTW,, Did Steve read the memo about how the sun has more influence on our
temp than "previously believed"? ( a lot of us were saying that from the start)
What a Revelation... The sun heats and cools in cycles, and the geniuses of GW just couldn't comprehend that notion.
Try this little experiment.( Steve) Go build a small fire in your yard. ( Be sure it' a permissive burn day first. Our overlords are sticklers on that)
Find a nice comfortable distance, then throw a little extra fuel on it.
Did you get warmer? Don't worry,, it will cool down soon enough.
Just remember, your distance didn't change. Just the heat source.

See how that works? But your AGW experts flat out dismiss this fact.
They were more content to change the numbers to fit their chicken little theory.

Joe Koyote

Walt- I'll call your Soros and Buffet and raise you 4 Waltons, a Romney, one Adolph Coors and Richard Mellon Sciafe.

Gregory

I am shocked (Shocked!) to hear an employee of one right leaning think tank was later an employee of another! Will the shenanigans never stop?

Steven Frisch, if Heartland was as bad as Gleich thought, he wouldn't have had to make up a fake document to prove it.

I've not followed him recently; did the AGU ever reappoint him as chair of their ethics panel? Mail fraud did make that a bit of a sticky wicket.


Joe Koyote

I think more Republicans want the Tea Party dead than Dems. Reading the analyses of MOR Republicans, it seems that they think the tea party pushed the public perception too far to the right (or too dumb to elect) alienating Reagan Democrats and probably (though I think wrongly so, they would have lost anyway) costing them the Whitehouse, as well as, several House seats. Some of the TP (an appropriate label) candidates believe and stated some totally stupid things. Tea Party positions on most issues do not come close to what a majority of Americans think and more closely approximate Wall Street's take on life. So what we have is a very loud vocal and well funded minority. As evidenced by the last election, it seems that the majority of Americans resent the attempt to have nineteenth century values shoved down their throats by the billionaires and their parrots, many of whom chirp on these pages.

George Rebane

Has anyone given much thought to what kind of conclusion is sought in the bidding war on one-upping the other's rich supporters?

Joe Koyote

It is just to make note that every time anyone mentions conservative billionaires funding think tanks and trying to shape public opinion someone plays Soros/Buffet card, about the only two non-conservative billionaires that I have ever heard of.

Gregory

Since the Frischie thinks this should be a discussion about think tanks, how about the Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment which was at the forefront of two different cataclysmic alarms... the new Ice Age in the '70's, and the wildly more profitable Global Warming that followed when the cooling trend didn't stick.

I say within 10 years they're back to the cooling story.

George Rebane

The tea party movement is a fractionated grass roots expression of frustration with the hard left drift of the country. That they are not unified is a nuance a bit too complex for the Left to either understand or admit - it's always easier to paint them all with a broad brush dipped in the color of your choosing. JoeK's 1034am is a typical expression of this. As a member of the NC Tea Party Patriots I have been looking for the last years for any hint of our being funded by outside monied interests beyond our own local contributions. Sadly, I have come up empty, and appeal to our friends of the Left to help divert some of those massive cash flows to these foothills; even a little trickle would help.

"Tea Party positions on most issues do not come close to what a majority of Americans think and more closely approximate Wall Street's take on life." Unfortunately, given the closing of the American mind, that statement is almost true, and more so every day. The tea partiers hold what used to be some pretty staid views on our government; they were about as centrist as one could get. Not any more, now we have a good half of the country waiting for the next belch from "Obama's stash".

Ben Emery

George,
For the jobs portion of the post. As productivity rises so should wages. Without the rise in wages the macro and micro economies then become reliant on either a small few who own the robots or private personal debt. Neither of the last two options are good recipes for a functional society with mobility within it.

The New Golden Age
http://02ae523.netsolhost.com/gapr.html

A New Theory of Unemployment: Globalization and the Wage-Productivity Gap
http://www.ravibatra.com/a-new-theory-of-unemployment.htm

Joe Koyote

George-- then you must have missed the article in the Union about the anonymous $10,000 given to the local TP to spend on local elections. this was during the highly politicized Diaz/Pruitt election cycle.

Gregory

Golly, we also never got to find out who gave $50K to the County Supe of Instruction to dole out to NUHS and the GVSD to pave the way for the UN aligned International Baccalaureate program to displace the Advanced Placement program already fully implemented in our high schools.

Ms.Hermanson, (aka Mrs. Jon Byerrum, wife of the former superintendent of the GVSD who spent some of that money), who took over the County Supe of Ed spot, denied my FOIA request to find out who gave $50K in an anonymous attempt to unilaterally change school policy.

George Rebane

JoeK 1128am - I did indeed. Since they are presumed guilty until they prove themselves innocent, we must nip those anonymous donors in the bud wherever they are found. Can you point me to the article?

BenE 1121am - Like a true progressive, you don't seem to have a clue about what motivates economic forces and makes an economy work. If wages were to rise along with productivity, then by definition productivity would NOT rise, capice? Were this insane way to run an economy to be adopted, we would still have only 0.0001% Americans driving cars, owning refrigerators, having telephones, radios, TVs, ..., computers, ... . The progress in the quality of life increases from NOT paying as much for the next unit of production as for the last. And that means that new technology and processes reduce labor expenses from the cost of what is produced.

We all must compete in what we sell and buy, it is nature's way of picking winners and losers. If the govt forced wages to keep pace with productivity advances, we would instantly become what was the old USSR, and now is Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, ... .

As I've argued in these pages, we must redistribute wealth until our population goes down. But in the interval, wealth cannot be redistributed in destructive ways, which are the only ways that the various flavors of collectivism have to teach us.

Please reread 'The real jobs problem - shhh' and its appendix.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/09/the-real-jobs-problem-shhh.html

Also, thank you for the link to Batra's new theory of unemployment. A quick scan recommends a more detailed read. I did, however, notice that in his model he assumes that government spending is as efficient as private spending in stimulating the economy - a questionable assumption indeed.

Russ Steele

Joe@1128AM

The 10K was for nonpartisan get out the vote ads. Time was purchased on KNCO and ads in the Union. You may remember those ads, they never mentioned a political party or a candidate. They were totally neutral as to party affiliation.

George Rebane

More on Batra's theory (cf my 1216pm and BenE's 1121am). I failed to mention that, like most economic models, Batra's is a model that computes the static relationship between various economic quantities like GDP, consumer spending, taxes, unemployment, ... . Economists don't like to put the time variable into their work, because then things become dynamic and messy. With dynamic models you could actually simulate past performance with historical policy inputs and measured outputs, and compare theory with realworld experience. One could also then predict with trial policies to see what is better or worse.

Instead, Batra and other economists, present us relationships that can never obtain in the real world. With agent-based dynamism the rule, steady state never occurs, but instead we have a dynamic cauldron with multiple feedback loops each with dynamic gains and time delays.

Russ Steele

Just so you all know:

Since 2008, the U.S. has wasted nearly $70 billion on “climate change activities.” A report by the Congressional Research Service revealed that, from fiscal years 2008 through 2012, the federal government spent $68.4 billion to “combat climate change.”

And, not much did those conservative "think tanks" spend? Not billions!

Ben Emery

George,
To return the insult, like a true corporatist you have no clue on how the productive economy works for a nation. Demand comes from everyday people having money in their pockets and that money comes in the form of trading their labor for wages. When wages don't track production/ productivity a gap is created, which can only be filled with private or public credit. Private credit/ debt has been maxed out as a nation so public debt/ spending is the only other option to stimulate the economy. The problem we face is public spending only has minimal multiplier effect due to the US purchasing goods that are made in foreign nations. Instead of creating jobs for my neighbor to make the tires on my car I am supporting wage slavery and conditions in a developing nation while lining the pockets of a small few at the top levels of shareholders. Profits have never been better for US corporations but the average American is being squeezed. Corporatist economics coming to fruition is the death sentence to a middle class.

So the answer to the problem of jobs isn't a single issue but connected multiple policies on multiple levels.

Corporate Profits Just Hit An All-Time High, Wages Just Hit An All-Time Low
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-profits-just-hit-an-all-time-high-wages-just-hit-an-all-time-low-2012-6#ixzz2KXQZT8zG

Ben Emery

Russ,
$69 billion is chump change compared to what has been spent to create an economy and government totally dependent on fossil fuels. The actual numbers would be in the trillions of dollars.

Walt

How many of our all knowing Left, get their news from CNN?
Especially GW facts...? What one of those brilliant news people
over there has really nutted up about it. There is this small
asteroid that will give us flyby next week, and the LIB mind behind the desk, and in front of the camera asked if the asteroid was a product of..... You guessed it,,, AGW!!!!
And this is the quality of information that gets fed to devout watchers of CNN?
Just wait.. Someone will put that theory in the grade school science books.

Russ Steele

BenE@02:40PM

And those trillions have produced next to nothing (2011 numbers):

Biomass 1.38%
Geothermal 0.41%
Solar 0.04%
Wind 2.92%

Paul Emery

Russ 10 February 2013 at 02:25 PM
70 Billion? That's a pittance compared to what we are still spending for Bush's war in Iraq that was unconstitutional and unfunded.

Ben Emery

Russ,
At the beginning of fossil fuels what was EROI and what % did it represent in overall energy use? The difference is with fossil fuels we needed more and more exploration, land grabs, environmental raping and plundering, colonizing and oppression, and creating virtually the entire terror against US policies we are experiencing today. So the pluses vs minuses are starting to really even themselves out over the last four decades. Up until the mid 70's when the domestic production dried up it was a huge boom for energy industry and US economy. Since the 70's we have created more and more enemies in the most oil rich region of the world. If we would have stayed on the visionary Carter administration path of renewable energies we would have been the tip of the spear of the new energy industry and would be dominating the renewable industry and possibly could have avoided Global Warming/ Climate Change that will cost in the tens of trillions to combat while threatening the existence of human beings on the planet.

George Rebane

BenE 237pm - then since neither of us have a clue about economics, we can both relax and enjoy the work of all those in Washington claiming to have overcome our shortcomings. They read the gauges, turned the right knobs, and pulled the levers to put us on our glory road to a bright and progressive future. All is well. (Pay no attention to what DHS is preparing for.)

Russ Steele

BenE@03:30

You need to see a Doctor about these delusion that humans have the ability to control the climate.

We now have enough oil and gas in North American to become an exporter by 2020, but environmental wackos are trying to prevent the drilling and exploration. Even now we are importing less and less. With the XL Pipeline and fracking on federal land, we could dry up the money going to the oil rich regions controlled by the islamic terrorist, and become self sufficient in fossil fuels. Just think, we would only creating enemies by raising the price they have to pay for US oil.

Walt

Get over it Paul, this is now "O" and Co.'s war. All of them.
He had his chance to "end all hostilities". He was blowing smoke up your skirt when he said he would end the war. Close GITMO, etc. But you still want to blame Bush. A little desperation in the finger pointing dept?
You should be a little wary of the new drone program. Just think of all the pot garden raids by the FEDS this growing season. How legal do you think those really are? At least people will only get arrested for the first season or two.
Maybe by year three hellfire missiles with replace the good old fashioned raids.
Will you blame Bush for that too? Just because the drone program was in place under his watch?
( Never mind the illegal killing of Americans on "O"'s kill list. I do believe the Talley is at 4)
But since it's "O" doing the illegal crap, it's fine and dandy.
OK... Back to your Bush rant....

Ben Emery

Walt,
If you want a corporate view of the world and US politics watch CNN, NBC, ABC, FOX, and even MSNBC based in the US. If you want a different look at US policies go to the international news sources even if it is CNN. Here is a couple of examples of how corporate media cover war in the US for US consumption. The first link it starts about minute 3:30.

Independent Media in a Time of War Preview (I encourage you to listen to the whole 30 minutes)
http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=110&template=PDGCommTemplates/HTN/Item_Preview.html

Democracy Now! Interviewing Aaron Brown of CNN
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/4/4/an_hour_with_cnns_aaron_brown

Walt

Ya' hear the oil and gas shale that Ca. is sitting on? It's dwarfs
the find in the Dakotas. Ca. could littealy drill it's way back tp prosperity.
But since this is ECO LIBBY Land, that will NEVER happen.

George Rebane

Walt 410pm - Not to worry Walt, it will happen. When we are all on the left side of socialism, Washington has totaled the economy, and our ruling autocrats need money, then you can bet it will be 'drill baby, drill!' - ecology be damned in the name of an everlasting national emergency. All totalitarian governments need to go into the ground for wealth extracted by state-owned enterprises, because in such regimes nothing above ground will generate wealth any more (especially agriculture) - such enterprises need individual initiative, risk taking, responsibility, and entrepreneurship. And all of these are based on the then long-banished Bastiat Triangle.

Paul Emery

Gee Walt

I was just comparing so called wasted taxpayers money just for yucks. Just to reinforce he record I didn't vote for "O" this time around. Did you vote for Romney?

Steve Frisch

What I find really fascinating here is that try as they might the forces of science denial represented on this page have serially failed to actually answer the key claim: That the very same 'think tanks', lobbyists, private foundations, and people who are currently part of the climate denial movement were often previously members of the effort to avoid the consequences of anti-tobacco laws and tobacco litigation.

This really points out to me what the real agenda here is. In the face of a stark choice between respect for human life and individual and corporate profit, the posters here prefer profit. Now they are going to deny that until they are blue in the face as well. But the truth is posters here are more worried about the cost of a gallon of gas or a kilowatt hour of electricity than the human cost, and socialized social cost, of the negative health consequences of their decisions. The reason for that is quite clear to me. They don't give a shit what happens to the next generation, they have health insurance to cover their costs, and they are serial resisters of change.

Russ Steele

Steven,

Just what might these "human cost, and socialized social cost, of the negative health consequences" be, that we a putting on our children and grandchildren? I am much more worried about the debt we are running up that they will have to pay. We are stealing their future, with our foolish spending.

Gregory

It's amazing what a rent-seeking PoliSci fanatic can spin from one guy with a career in working rightwing groups.

No Steven, the "deniers" keep at it because the evidence is that the planet is in no danger of a catastrophic warming from anthropogenic CO2, and the so-called "consensus" was fabricated and enforced by just the sort of character assassination you've again indulged in.

Clouds and aerosols, and how the computer models simplified what little was known about them in order to make the simulations possible, were always the weak point of the IPCC brand science, and that chicken has come home to roost. None of them are following the Reality that the forecast warming isn't happening, and even the draft AR5 has a graph showing current measured temps below *all* the simulations of AR4... sans error bars, to be determined later. The bigger the better.

It's perhaps instructive to note that after 34 years of warming measured by satellite (since '79), current worldwide sea ice is almost exactly at it's average for the date over that 34 years.

The bright side, Steve, is that the Sierra Business Council is probably in the best state to milk the issue for the longest possible time, but it will end here, too.

Ben Emery

George,
We all know that our government is owned by those who have accumulated huge sums of wealth and power. For this reason the best answers for the most people will always be ignored because power never relinquishes it without a knock down drag out fight and unfortunately their political party, the least worst party*, that controls our federal and state governments has successfully divided the country where we are incapable of uniting to take on such a fight.

* Least Worst Party- The Democratic and Republican Parties. Both when given a chance to govern in the peoples interest fails miserably so the other party is given another chance at being the majority. The are opposite sides of the same coin, representatives of the corporatist/ fascist/ oligarch/ aristocrat/ plutocrat or what ever we want to call it.

Walt

This is nothing really new, but our Lefties refuse to see the error of their ways, so here is a little reminder of the down side of their beloved solar panels. They are not as "green" as they would like us to believe.
Now if a MINE put out anywhere near the toxins of solar panels there would
be more outrage than we ever saw with IMM.

The Associated Press relates:

"Solyndra…reported producing about 12.5 million pounds of hazardous waste, much of it carcinogenic cadmium-contaminated water, which was sent to waste facilities from 2007 through mid-2011.

Before the company went bankrupt, leading to increased scrutiny of the solar industry and political fallout for President Barack Obama’s administration, Solyndra said it created 100 megawatts-worth of solar panels, enough to power 100,000 homes.

The records also show several other Silicon Valley solar facilities created millions of pounds of toxic waste without selling a single solar panel, while they were developing their technology or fine-tuning their production."


"The state records show the 17 companies, which had 44 manufacturing facilities in California, produced 46.5 million pounds of sludge and contaminated water from 2007 through the first half of 2011. Roughly 97 percent of it was taken to hazardous waste facilities throughout the state, but more than 1.4 million pounds were transported to nine other states: Arkansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, Rhode Island, Nevada, Washington, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona.

Several solar energy experts said they have not calculated the industry’s total waste and were surprised at what the records showed."

So tell us again just how "clean",,, solar really is.And look at all the tax dollars that wizzed away for nothing.

Gregory

Walt, you forget, the new Green Economy in California was going to put us in the forefront in the new century. A new energy source that would make us independent from the Middle East and all those horrible wars that Texas Oilmen had gotten us into.

It will take some time for the Frischs of the world to come to grips with the apparent fact that that will be the new oil shale finds...
http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/14/news/economy/california-oil-boom/index.html

Walt

Your so right Gregory,,,, How silly of me to forget all about that.
Please remind me of how great that worked out.

As for the Ca. oil shale I believe I mentioned that a few days ago,
and the only response I got from Frish and friends was crickets.
Nope,, they hate news like that. But then again this is Ca.,,
and you can bet your bottom dollar that the ECO gang will fight
to the last bong hit to keep that oil right where it is.
And because they can sue in the name of critters, WE get to pay
for their fight. Not one dime will come out of ECO pockets.

I will wait and see how they respond to the toxic crap produced
by solar production (that's some serious tonnage) in comparison to local mining, let alone the whole damned state.

Ken Jones

Facts Walt omitted from the article:

While solar is a far less polluting energy source than coal or natural gas, many panel makers are nevertheless grappling with a hazardous waste problem.

The roughly 20-year life of a solar panel still makes it some of the cleanest energy technology currently available. Producing solar is still significantly cleaner than fossil fuels. Energy derived from natural gas and coal-fired power plants, for example, creates more than 10 times more hazardous waste than the same energy created by a solar panel, according to Mulvaney.

The U.S. solar industry said it is reporting its waste, and sending it to approved storage facilities — thus keeping it out of the nation's air and water. A coal-fired power plant, in contrast, sends mercury, cadmium and other toxins directly into the air, which pollutes water and land around the facility.

Many businesses generate hazardous wastes as part of the manufacturing process. No one ever said solar panels were free of any potential wastes. But leave it to Walt to demean anything that is considered green. Walt still hates the Prius.

Gregory

KJ, the Prius is a Rube Goldberg model of complexity and exotic materials that is very expensive to repair after some lefty goober driving a red Volvo smashes it. The lifetime energy costs of a Toyota Yaris (basically, a Corolla without the late middle age weight gain) put it to shame.

Solar electric energy would not be happening in California without huge direct and indirect subsidies, and would collapse without all the carrots and sticks being used to encourage their use. Outgoing (gone?) Energy Sec'y Chu correctly stated they need to improve by a factor of 6 before they're competitive, and that was before natural gas prices had been driven down by an abundant supply.

Walt

Good Lord KJ.... Ya' think all that hazardous material is actually worth it?
You have ANY idea of how expensive that is to deal with? I used to work in that field! But funny you drove right past the IMM part of my comment. It's fine and dandy for a not so "green" business to generate haz waste by the train load, but a hole in the ground that generates the same material as any gravel pit above the surface,, people would think the world was coming to and end the way our local idiots raised hell. ( Like Mr. "toxic tile" loved to howl.)
The crap produced by your "green" stepchild is FAR worse than the cyanide system IMM would have used.

So ya' still like the Prius? Have at it. I'm not the one that will need to buy the batt. for that boat anchor. And Lithium batts. are far from being "clean" either.
I got a study question for ya'.. Just how much is the REAL cost to make a Chevy Volt? ( not the sticker price) Please include all subsidized, third party parts manufactures as well. So just how much is the American taxpayer stuck with so you don't have a bigger, self imposed guilt trip?

Walt

One more thing to think about since you decided to sing the praises of toxic sludge being a profitable business,, Just who eats the cost of disposal?
Like I said. That stuff ain't cheap to get rid of. It's not much of a trade off
if you ask me. And just what is your stance on Yucca Mountain? That was to be a hazardous waste site too. Or is some nasty crap just politically better than others? No matter what,,, both dump sites will be dead zones for eternity.

Ken Jones

Walt you have no idea of what you are speaking about. The reporting is required under SARA 313 TIR. Do us all a favor and look at the reports, who files and the threshold levels that trigger the reports. Industry produces hazardous wastes in the process of manufacturing. Do you even have a clue of what constitutes a hazardous waste?
You didn't address the points about how solar energy is cleaner then coal or natural gas either. Mines do generate hazardous wastes as well Walt. But when you are so blinded by your ideology against our environment then common sense becomes uncommon. I would also suggest you research subsidies to the coal, gas and oil industries. The amount of money for solar is like a grain of sand on the beach when compared to oil, gas and coal.

Paul Emery

Well spoken Ben | 11 February 2013 at 10:14 AM

"Least Worst Party- The Democratic and Republican Parties. Both when given a chance to govern in the peoples interest fails miserably so the other party is given another chance at being the majority. The are opposite sides of the same coin, representatives of the corporatist/ fascist/ oligarch/ aristocrat/ plutocrat or what ever we want to call it. "

The ultimate joke about most of these discussions is how party partisan it is. We had eight years of Bush and look what we got. We'll have eight years of Obama with predictable results. Why not just throw the whole lot out ? It would only take one election cycle and the House could be independent. Just imagine if 90% of the votes went to third parties-any party. That would be a festival of change and great fun and imagine the squealing from the pig sty of those who think they have control. That's all it would take. One cycle plus well targeted consumer strikes.

Walt

Nice deflection away from the subject at hand. " Well,,,, uh,,, just about everyone generates waste,,,". So that makes the crap generated by solar manufacturing "acceptable", because you happen to like it. ( and heavily subsidized )

And just for the sake of argument I will use IMM as an example.
The eco gang pretty much demanded "zero emissions" out of them.
And all done by private money.
Now some other eco kooks get some funding to mess with two more mines
that are about to get going. Those snuck under the anti mine activists radar.
There not a whole lot of waste generated there,, What?? used motor oil??

But solar toxins are SO much better. A little hypocritical,, don't ya' thunk?

Paul Emery

Walt

You made no effort to verify you sources for your blather so why should anyone pay attention to you? Solar jobs by illegal immigrants-remember?

Gerry Fedor

I have to wonder if the Tea Party and CABPRO parties in Nevada county are nothing more than social organizations?

Do they support "accurate causes" that by definition follow their principles?

Anyone know the answer?

Ken Jones

Walt my discussion was pointing out that business do generate hazardous wastes. Furniture, electronics, auto,mining and many industries. The issue isn't accepting one industries waste stream over the other. My issue was simply how you only posted what you see as negative omitting the other information.
I would challenge yuu first to tell me what a toxic waste is before you imply that supporters of solar power believe waste streams are "better" than any other industry.
Mines produce many types of RCRA wastes. Some of the potential wastes streams come from the use of both acids and bases.

George Rebane

GerryF 458am - As a member of both CABPRO and the local tea party, I can tell you that both are definitely not "social organizations" - they would fail on too many counts for such an appellation. And however much I'd like to answer your second question, I can't because I don't know what an "accurate cause" is, and how such or any cause "follows principles", especially "by definition". Could please expand and/or rephrase?

Brad Croul

Small arms ammo production is up significantly since Bush took office (post 911).

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

Possibly due to increase wartime (permawar) ammo requirements, local municipalities had to wait in line for ammo needed for practice and qualification training requirement and were forced to dip into ammo reserves. Seems logical that they would want to replenish supplies.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/17/204959.shtml

But, right on queue, the right sees spooks in every shadow.

George Rebane

BradC 921am - as a gun owner and enthusiast I can report to you that until Obama, ammunition, especially of the 9mm and 40cal kind, was manifestly abundant throughout the Bush years. There were no shortages of any kind for civilians even though the government was always first in line buying all they wanted. Your reports appear to be liberal red herrings.

And you are correct about being right on cue (I believe that's the word you sought), we on the right correctly see government as did our Founders - intrinsically inept and corrupt, with every tendency toward autocracy and evil, lest it be monitored constantly with a generous modicum of distrust by a populace having recourse.

Paul Emery

George. Please explain the threshold for the "populace" to have recourse. Would that threshold be managed by a central authority or would it be neighborhood by neighborhood or up to the individual (McVeith). How is it determined to be a legitimate Second Amendment option or what was determined to be an insurrection such as Kent State? So many questions.

Paul Emery

Also who does the "monitoring" individuals or organizations and what determines a call to arms and how is that managed and by whom?

George Rebane

PaulE 1137am ff - All good questions which I believe you have asked and I have answered before. What you are seeking is a nice tidy 'Handbook on How to Start an Insurrection'. While I'm sure that these must exist (especially written by leftwing revolutionaries), from what I've heard, they all require some purposive organization to be the catalyst to marshal some compliant cohort of the 'populace' to get things going. I'm not aware of any such organization waiting in the wings to incite insurrection (are you?).

Absent such a formal start, I think that any resistance that might arise will be totally spontaneous and totally unpredictable. The event is best explained in systems science in the field of 'self-criticality of complex systems' which has a lot of math connected with it. Think of building a sand pile by dropping individual grains on it. It is impossible to predict when the last grain dropped will cause an avalanche down one side of the pile, or where the avalanche will occur, or how big it will be.

So like the insurrection in Syria, no one knew when or where it would start, how and in what manner it would sustain itself, etc until things were pretty far along. In short, such insurrections start in an unconnected distributive manner here and there. It is after these independent groups communicate with each other, and know of their individual successes, that there is a tendency to organize and unite. But all this is unpredictable (that's why autocratic governments try to cut/control all lines of communication as quickly as possible).

But again, to me your question reveals your inherent worldview that things don't start or move unless there is a central authority that initiates and directs. Fortunately our universe is not built that way; it functions quite well with widely distributed knowledge and control that is also spontaneous and therefore completely stochastic in nature. It is when central control is imposed that things start to get fragile - look at the development of the monolith coming into place that is Obamacare.

Gregory

Paul, your line of inquiry is hilarious, and I've a suspicion the humor is unintentional.

I think it would be a lot like the former problem of defining "pornography" back when it was illegal. SCOTUS Justice Potter Stewart wrote that it was hard to define, but that he knew it when he saw it.

So far in my lifetime, we have the Weather Underground and the call to arms by Tim McVeigh, and I'd expect there were others that have slipped my mind. I don't think anyone of substance saw justifications for either.

At the Democratic Convention in '68, there was what has been termed a "police riot" by sober investigators. Now, that obviously wasn't a '2nd' trigger event, but imagine a "police" and "National Guard" riot over a large area, or a law enforcement retreat and civilian rioters ala Los Angeles that lasts weeks, and you might know it if you see it.

Gregory

George, I tend to agree especially with your 3rd and 4th paragraphs of 1:11PM. I think Paul is trying to figure out how the Tea Party could "go 2nd", and the short answer is that it won't.

As I write, a recently celebrated (by some) Obama supporter and gun control advocate is apparently playing out his endgame near Big Bear.

Michael Anderson

Gregory,
Do you have links to prove that Dorner was an Obama supporter and gun control advocate? Your comment is the first I'd heard of this, and I thought I had watched and read about this case fairly closely. Thanks.
Michael A.

n

Do you have links to prove that Dorner was an Obama supporter and gun control advocate?

http://boywithgrenade.org/2013/02/07/christopher-dorners-manifesto/

Ken Jones

Dorner wrote in his manifesto that he didn't vote in the 2012 election as the candidate he supported, John Huntsman, was out the race.

Gregory

"Mr. President, I haven’t agreed with all of your decisions but of course I haven’t agreed with all of your predecessors decisions. I think you’ve done a hell of a job with what you have been dealt and how you have managed it. I shed a tear the night you were initially elected President in 2008."

Sure sounds like a supporter to me, even if he didn't bother to vote in 2012.

And on gun control,
“[G]ive Piers Morgan an indefinite resident alien and Visa card.... Wayne LaPierre, President of the NRA, you’re a vile and inhumane piece of shit"

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