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06 April 2013

Comments

Russ Steele

George,

You appear to be out numbered, there are more liberals than conservatives at the table. I hope that future guest will keep you from becoming the token conservative, in what promises to be a very interesting venue.

How will the "areas of consensus" be catalogued for posterity, other than on the program DVD?

Jeff Pelline

George,
You forgot to mention that programs like these are subsidized by (OMG) government! Hope you learn something.

Barry Pruett

George: Congratulations! I see some areas of agreement all of the time when I talk with my more liberal friends. No more corporate bailouts is one area for serious agreement. We did the same thing with the Einstein Project. http://barrypruett.blogspot.com/search/label/Einstein%20Project

It is much more interesting when you can discuss face-to-face.

I was on NCTV one time with Reinette in connection with discussing the various propositions. She was awesome, and we had a great conversation. Hope that you post some links to the videos.

Jeff Pelline

"WE did the same thing with the Einstein Project. http://barrypruett.blogspot.com/search/label/Einstein%20Project"

Sounds like Al Gore inventing the internet! Good going!

Barry Pruett

We did, and it is a wonderful group. I am sad that I do not have more time to continue my participation with them. Sunday evenings were not working for me. You know - family first. Good to see Mr. Pelline comstructively participating in the rational discussions. He always enlightens on and reminds me of the thought processes of the extremely angry faction of the extreme left-side of the aisle. I would love to trade barbs, but I have another trial next week.

fish

You forgot to mention that programs like these are subsidized by (OMG) government!

They shouldn't be.

Jeff Pelline

Barry,
We are praying for you. Honest.

Russ Steele

This post is about creating a forum for understanding and coming up with some common understanding of the issues facing our community, and with in a short time after the post was made we have the arrival of a disruptive commenter, a troll bent on changing the subject and creating a disruptive discourse with the other posters. Why? What could be the purpose of this troll whom we have not heard from for some time. Why now? Could it be he is jealous, having not been invited to break some bread at the NCTV table? Just wondering!

Barry Pruett

Envy.

Bill Tozer

That reminds me. It has indeed been awhile since I smelled a BoB's Big Boy.

Michael P. Anderson

Breaking Bread on NCTV sounds like a great idea. Well done George, Paul, and crew.
May I suggest also breaking bread at the Pioneer Park snack shack? Liberals, progressives, conservatarians, libertarians, cranks, bastards, knaves, and other various malcontents regularly lay down their arms at this wonderful venue on a regular basis at this time of year and share a few innings of pure joy watching America's Greatest Pastime. Here's the schedule, in case you feel like lowering your blood pressure: http://nevadacitybaseball.com/Org/OrgLocationPublicSchedule.aspx?d=uSrmLaewjHFQC3BWxO7x4SfstNikCAbB

And this explains it even better--
http://www.sportsareinvolved.com/2010/04/on-why-baseball-will-always-be-americas.html

Jeff Pelline


There's no need to stoop to name calling. I just find it ironic that the same folks who want to cut funding to PBS (because they disagree with the perspective) are boasting about local programs that benefit from similar government mandated arrangements – because they're featured on it. "Rent-seeking TV commentators." What a hoot!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public-access_TV_stations_in_the_United_States_(Alaska-Connecticut)

fish

There's no need to stoop to name calling.

Theres always a need to stoop to name calling.

I just find it ironic that the same folks who want to cut funding to PBS (because they disagree with the perspective) are boasting about local programs that benefit from similar government mandated arrangements – because they're featured on it. "Rent-seeking TV commentators." What a hoot!

Without regard to the correctness of the initial act (taxpayer funded TV programs) this seems to be a case of - "Well you spent the money already so we're going to use the resource too".

Barry Pruett

Michael: What NCLL team are we rooting for this year? In other words, what team is D on? When we lived in Nevada City, I used to walk up to Pioneer Park and watch the games. It has to be one of the prettiest little league fields in the country.

Biull Tozer

Government funded PEGS?? Nay, I disagree. Funding for PEGS (Public, education, government local tv) comes from the cable companies franchise tax that you see on your cable bill. Its the law, albeit the new law limits the extortion the local communities can charge. Dish Network and Direct TV are exempt and the phone company tax you see on your bill goes to equip public schools with access to the internet, but I digress once again.

I remember when a former Superintendent of the County Schools took $200,000 from our local school budget to keep NCTV afloat after it moved out of St. Joe's basement and ran out of money. He figured the public and the cable companies here (Comcast and the provider down in Alta Sierra) would just open their wallets and totally fund this invaluable resource which we all can't live without. New building, new state of the art equipment donated and all was well. Opps, the greatest plans of mice and men.

The former person in charge of our County's K-12 funding went as far to try to get the local cable companies to pay us (him) the same franchise monies as they pay in San Jose, using that city in many speeches. Lets see now. San Jose has 600,000 cable subscribers and Western Nevada County had about 12,000 subscribers at the time. Guess he was not the smartest tool in the shed when it came to ratios and percentages.

For its part, Comcast was not obligated to pay additional money after its franchise agreement with the County and local cities was reached, but they threw in another $600,000 towards NCTV in additional funds of the next ten years as a gesture of good will. Think they were obligated to pay something in the 15-30k/year to NCTV via their franchise agreement. Even Director Lou was surprised by the additional 60k/year. Public relations and all that stuff.

I don't have cable, but I am glad the Breaking Bread will be aired to those who live in our little towns. Government funding? Hmmm. All the cable, satellite tv, and phone companies join together and fund C-Span and C-Span @. That's why no matter what level of service you have, you can always catch Queen Nancy's mug on your TV.

Biull Tozer

Dr. Rebane, I regret I will miss the airing May 1st on the 2nd Amendment. We have the right to bear arms, not for hunting or skeet practice, but to defend ourselves with deadly force, aka, to kill people who invade us.

We bear arms not to shoot cans or fire off nerf balls at folks who mean us great bodily harm, rather we have the right to bear arms to inflict great bodily harm on others.

Jeff Pelline

"The lady doth protest too much." Public-access television (including public, educational and government-access television) was created and mandated by government! (via the Cable Communications Act of 1984). It's "rent-seeking" television. As you point out yourself, the private sector (AKA, cable companies) have objected to the terms from time to time. Of course, when George Rebane appears on "Breaking Bread," it's an excellent use of the money. Go figure!

George Rebane

BillT 759am - Not to worry Mr Tozer. I'm told that NCTV will air each segment several times, and also make them all available online.

Ben Emery

I have a question for George. Will you call people who suggest a environmental regulation or raising income taxes or should I say capital gains/ dividends on the wealthiest Americans Communists, Socialists, Collectivists, ignorant, and all the those labels you paint people on RR? If yes, do you think they will take the labels as a pejorative? I know you make the claim on RR those labels aren't meant as a negative despite the label being used in the middle of antagonistic rant against such ideas. Or does that only exist within the safety of blogs and the lack of face to face confrontation?

Ben Emery

Jeff,
A better way of putting it is within a question. Will "Breaking Bread" be a profitable show? If it will not create profit should it even exist?

Many times what is good for the public like roads, emergency services, education, open spaces and so on aren't important because they generate profit but instead they are a social good.

fish

Will you call people who suggest a environmental regulation or raising income taxes or should I say capital gains/ dividends on the wealthiest Americans Communists, Socialists, Collectivists, ignorant, and all the those labels you paint people on RR?

I'm certainly not answering for the proprietor, but since you raise the issue Ben are their percentages associated with these proposed levies that you would find adequate for the proper functioning of government not the vague bottomless "wish list" that emanates annually from DC and the state capitols?

Russ Steele

BenE@09:33AM

I am not offended when some on calls me a Conservative, why should a Communist, Socialist, Collectivist or Progressive be offended if that is what they are? Now we have to agree, it is not nice to call someone ignorant. That is, unless you can demonstrate they are ignorant of the facts. Or, in some cases choosing to ignore the facts, then I think that the case can be made for ignorance.

Ben Emery

Russ,
Because I am not a Communist and basically since the 1940's there has been a war on Communists in America. If you are a conservative are you a automatically a Fascist? Fascism and American Conservatism have many of the same positions on issues but that doesn't automatically make you a Fascist. Do you get the point.

George Rebane

BenE 1104am etc - This topic of using appropriate labels to summarize prominent characteristics/beliefs of a person has been extensively covered in RR over the years - just use the RR search bar or google the topics while including 'Rebane' in the keywords. Also see the Glossary and Semantics section of RR.

If you think that I have inappropriately used a label, then cite the specific use and focus your criticism. And I'm not sure what are "many of the same positions on issues" shared by "Fascism and American Conservatism". But I do recall that you did not understand my 25feb13 post 'Ideologies and Governance - a structured look', so exploring the finer points of ideological spectra with you seems like the resurrection of futility.

In any event, I'll be happy to cover new ground with you, but hesitate to circumnavigate old barns.

Todd Juvinall

I see the usual liberal suspects are quizzing the host again.

NCTV has been around a long time. So long that its precursor was around in my youth. There was local access in the sixties. I was in a debate on the Vietnam War with a classmate in 1968. He kicked my butt on style but I beat him on facts. The show was on local cable which was not a prevalent as it is today. The station is still on Ridge Road. A little masonry structure.

Then I recall a certain percentage of the cable bill was set aside for a local station in the 80's. The cable franchise was a hegemony and we on the BOS extorted them for money for the station under the "law". Well, if you have a monopoly, then maybe there is a public interest. All this too has something to do with pole rights (not brass).

Then in 1996 I along with my co-host Sandy Gagnon, did a ongoing show on NCTV regarding the Propositions on the ballot that season. That morphed into a continuous show and was produced by volunteers. We had guests and our slant was to debate and expose the liberal crapola. Ah the memories.

So, Pelline is as usual, is uninformed about the local scene. Ben Emery is hopeless.

Todd Juvinall

And George, we all know you can hold your own on the topics but knowing liberals like PaulE and the others, you will become a pariah, verbally abused within a short time. LOL!

Ben Emery

George,
Nobody fits into these categories outright and you know it but you like to use them anyway. I am a civil libertarian, outdoorsman, and advocate of democracy. Yet on a number of occasions you have labelled my positions as Communist or Marxist. When using labels the focus then becomes the label not the issue. Labeling is a very weak position of an inexperienced debater who doesn't have the knowledge or facts to back up their positions.

Gregory

Does anyone have a link to RL Crabb's excellent Pelline as Eric Cartman strip? Classic and perceptive. Here we go:
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54f86f2ad8833014e86ba8a46970d-pi

" I just find it ironic that the same folks who want to cut funding to PBS (because they disagree with the perspective)..."

No, because there really is no need for the feds to provide 16% of public broadcasting's budget when even their defenders (from the left of center) describe them as having only one perspective. If Pelline really wants to see Riverdance or Celtic Woman again, he'll cough up another 16%.

Remember when PBS catered to high culture that really needed non commercial television to reach eyeballs?

Paul Emery

Todd

I'm confident that George is capable of handling himself in our discussions. If not he can call you for backup if he chooses. I'll leave it up to George to express his gratitude for your thoughtfulness.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, I debated your ilk in droves and usually I was outnumbered 3 or 4 to one. I kicked their butts. George will have no problems. Besides, I was laughing when I wrote the last comment. I recall debating Harold Berliner and a couple of other libs in the AVM when I was running CABPRO. KVMR did the broadcast. I wiped the floor with the libs you all stacked the panel with. What a hoot!

George Rebane

re BenE's 100pm et al - Those who are similarly afflicted may benefit from a reread of 'The Liberal Mind – How much socialist, before being a ‘Socialist’?'
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/11/the-liberal-mind-how-much-socialist-before-being-a-socialist.html

Paul Emery

Yeah Todd, Romney by 8. You sure were the winner in predicting the last election. For our newer readers let me introduce you to Todd Juvinall, a legend in his own mind.

Bill Tozer

Ben, nobody likes to be pigeonholed or put in a nice neat box. We all have our leaning with the proverbial "off the reservation" deviation from the party line on occasion. That I get. I also get that name calling is a weak and unskilled debating style, you Nirvana Dreamer. Its OK to have your head in the clouds as long has you have your feet planted on the ground.

What I do not get is how often you get stuck on somebody labeling you and you just can't seem to climb off that merry-go-round. Man up. Move on. Quit whining month after month that somebody labeled you a Pinko or that some guy who intentionally blew up a packed senior citizens' hangout is labeled a raghead. Dr. Rebane in too kind. They are reprehensible fawking ragheads. The deader they are, the better for world peace and understanding and even the environment. Those suicide packs really pollute the air when deployed.

Call me a conservative till the cows come home. Call me a Right Winger which I am. Call me a racist, Creationist, homophobic, uglier than buzzard guts, dumber than a bucket of rocks, mental midget, whatever. Just don't get into a time warp and be unable to crawl out.

I personally like bare knuckle political brawling and debates more akin to the Taiwanese legislature or at least what our Founding Fathers experienced in the House. Or at least as rowdy as the British Parliament addressing the Prime Minister. This PC crap has stifled the free flowing exchange of ideas in the name of being nice. Of course you know where nice guys end up in the pecking order. Like Chamberlain, they finish last while men and women and children are slaughtered. And please spare me the American-Indian War stories. Most liberals prefer the new name Progressive. What ever floats the libowels boat.

Ben Emery

Bill,
What I am trying to accomplish is a reasonable debate not having to sift through all the BS labels. When just about every discussion is started with the pretense of your ignorant, foolish, and want a one world government like Stalin it kind of puts a person in the corner. I love disagreement when we are talking about philosophy, ideology, or issues. What I don't like is when the insults start coming down the pike due to disagreement. I can have civil disagreements all day long but am like most people when they feel they are being attacked. I push back.

Politically I am a progressive, populist, democratic socialist, or civil libertarian. Here is the difference between a Liberal and Progressive.

Liberals- want everybody to be able to afford to live within a corrupt and unjust society.

Progressive- want to correct the system so everybody can afford to live.

One is about government putting quotas on everything and having programs and agencies while the other wants our government to represent the interest of the people so they can be self reliant and need little help from the government except in emergency situations. There is a huge difference.

Joe Koyote

RE: political labels --" I am not offended when some on calls me a Conservative, why should a Communist, Socialist, Collectivist or Progressive be offended if that is what they are? " I agree that a person should not be offended, however most of those terms have a lot of negative baggage associated with them as a result of cold war propaganda. I think the issue with labeling has more to do with propaganda and negative associations then any understanding by the public as to what they mean from a functional standpoint. Throughout the cold war the terms Communist, Socialist, Collectivist were associated with anti-American sentiment and in the post cold war anti-capitalist sentiment, and as such, are often used by conservative pundits to invoke negative reactions toward people and ideas by labeling them as "Communist, Socialist, Collectivist" etc. In the same way the left often uses fascism or plutocracy in association with capitalism. Unless a speaker's purpose is preaching to the choir, such labeling should be avoided as the undecided will most often view such language an ad hominem attack and the speaker will lose credibility.

George Rebane

BenE 641pm - Sounds like we're making progress. Can you write out the more formal/structured definitions of 'Liberal' and 'Progressive' as 1) how you interpret those labels, and 2) cite the more broader acceptance of your definitions given that they have a constituency.

George Rebane

JoeK 655pm - First, let's be clear that "the public" neither understands nor involves itself in such finer details of ideological labels, and most certainly they are not the audience here.

The fact is that during the Cold War those of the collectivist persuasions - primarily through the international communist movement - did try to destroy the US and the capitalist west. Therefore the negative connotation, viz American interests, of such collectivist labels has been and continues to be spot on according to the Right - libertarians, conservatives, conservetarians, free marketeers, etc.

You of the Left have a vastly different picture of what was, is, and should come to pass than the rest of us. And both of us are trying our best to convince and/or educate the sheeple sufficiently to enable our respective dreams.

Joe Koyote

"You of the Left have a vastly different picture of what was, is, and should come to pass than the rest of us." I would not describe myself as either a liberal or a lefty, as you put it, but that is beside the point... you seem to imply that the left is in left field while "the rest of us" (seeming to imply yourself and the rest of the country) are not. To put things into proper context, based on the opinions you express on your blog, and comparing those opinions to the rest of the nation, I would have to say that most of your positions have the support of around a one third or less of the population, placing you in a small minority. Of course, in your opinion, the rest of them, the "sheeple" just don't know any better, and in many ways I agree with that assessment, but that doesn't change what they think. The battle for their hearts and minds between left and right is not going to be won by elites looking down their noses at them. That is why Romney lost and why, ultimately, right or wrong, I think the center-left will win the culture war. Like it or not, the masses are damned tired of the rich getting richer and the rest treading water. I think the first politician from any party to grasp this and figure out how to use the internet to launch a grass roots fund raising campaign will not only be very successful but change the way elections are run, and perhaps change the political landscape. It should also be noted that these are the same conditions that have lead to the rise of militant dictators.

Jeff Pelline

[Pelline's comment deleted, it didn't take long for his hallmark snark and crap to emerge.]

Account Deleted

Joe at 7:38 - " Like it or not, the masses are damned tired of the rich getting richer and the rest treading water. I think the first politician from any party to grasp this and figure out how to use the internet to launch a grass roots fund raising campaign will not only be very successful but change the way elections are run, and perhaps change the political landscape."
Uh, Joe? Don't you think that is exactly what Obama did? The battle is not for the hearts and minds of the people, because the left have shown that you ignore the facts (the mind) and go after folks' emotions (hearts). The most successful tool for Obama was a bumper sticker that simply read: Obama - He Cares. By every metric that Obama himself laid down in his run against McCain he was a total failure and a liar of gross proportions to boot. But hey! HE CARES! He's going to go after anyone who makes more than you and give you a big check and you don't even have to work. Because you deserve it! There is no way on earth we conservatives can compete against an administration that prints billions every day in fiat money and hands it out. We can point to history and logic and facts until the cows come home, but that will never work against a president handing out goodies from his "stash". America now has the lowest work force participation as a percentage of it's population since the great depression, and the Obama admin is trumpeting this as great news and proof that the economy is recovering. Sadly, most of the sheep are buying it or they just don't care. Just how, Joe, do you want an election to run? The people voted and got what they wanted. What's the problem?

Joe Koyote

Scott--I don't disagree with your assessment of Obama. However, in the grand scale of things Obama is Republican light. He still caters to the traditional special interests. Obama said a lot of things that environmentalists and middle and low income people wanted to hear and did very few of them. He still says a lot of things and does very little. The person I am talking about in my post would be even more of a populist (someone who appeals to the working masses rather than business interests) than Obama tried to portray himself. They would have to come from a third party as neither party would risk backing a real populist. Perhaps a middle of the road person like Chris Christie from New Jersey on a third party ticket if the conservatives reject him in 2016 to run against Hillary. It is possible that millions of little people chucking in a few bucks each could raise enough money to compete with corporate backed Republican and Democratic candidates. Jefferson once said that the people in a democracy get the government they deserve. If people want change bad enough they can make it happen. Big if though.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, your jealousy of me is breathtaking. Go take a cold shower man. LOL!

I know some good psychologists that could help. It appears you have never gotten over the debate beating I gave you. Romney lost, big whoop. I kept the House and the majority of state legislatures. You libs are to funny.

Pelline's comments are simply his jealousy of George. Very obvious Pelline and even BenE are out of their league.

George Rebane

JoeK's (738pm, 901pm) and ScottO's (820pm) comments are pretty much on the mark according to my lights, and what I have been writing for these last years. Given the pre-Singularity economics we must endure, there is no chance of a large fraction of the workforce ever again competitively selling its labor. As technology advances, the trend is in the other direction - it is an existential reality and has nothing to do with ideologies. However, this does leave an open running field for the populist politicians of which Obama is the most skillful exemplar we have.

For some time we have been talking about additional political parties, each being more focused in their offerings. That might help, but the greatest impediment to all non-autocratic futures is still the uneducated/uncaring voter.

Michael Anderson

I would like to comment on a few of the comments from above:

Todd: "Well, if you have a monopoly, then maybe there is a public interest."

Wow, Todd the communist. Please tell us more...

Todd: "PaulE, I debated your ilk in droves and usually I was outnumbered 3 or 4 to one. I kicked their butts. George will have no problems. Besides, I was laughing when I wrote the last comment. I recall debating
Harold Berliner and a couple of other libs in the AVM when I was running CABPRO. KVMR did the broadcast. I wiped the floor with the libs you all stacked the panel with. What a hoot!"

In your own mind, TSA-boy. What a hoot! indeed.

Ben: "Liberals - want everybody to be able to afford to live within a corrupt and unjust society.
Progressive - want to correct the system so everybody can afford to live."

As George noted, this is a very nice (new) delineation of these two highly-used and misunderstood terms. Thanks Ben, well done.

Michael A.

Jeff Pelline

[Pelline's comment deleted, it didn't take long for his hallmark snark and crap to emerge.]

Wait a minute: All I wrote was that Paul got hoodwinked by George's big ego, so he put him on a "rent-seeking" TV program. Word on the street is that George lost in an election to become a leader at his church. We're tired of George and his "endless stream of 'you know what.'" Kapiche? Paul got snookered to put George on a "rent-seeking' TV program to provide "balance." This is a waste of Comcast's cable franchise fee.

Russ Steele

George@09:23PM

In addition to the "uneducated/uncaring voter", which has also be called the low information voter, one has to include those on the ice-cream truck route, collecting free ice-cream cones from Uncle Sugar. In other words those voters on the government dole. They will vote for who ever promised to keep the ice-cream cones flowing. The National Lame Stream Press has already decide that it will be Hillary Clinton in the ice-cream truck and we are just 90 days into what his names term. NBC Nightly News had a whole segment on the future Clinton administration to night. Yes, with all the real news events happening in the world, the news tonight was about the future President Clinton and her administration.

Russ Steele

Jeff@09:57PM

If you only had a clue! You had better get back to your street sources, they are making you look like a fool!

Joe Koyote

Let us not forget that the ice cream truck also stops on Wall Street as well as Main Street, not to mention down on the farm. NO candidate can get elected without the support of large donors and now corporations unless the "uneducated/uncaring voter" suddenly gets educated and finds a third party that will represent their interests. If Obama was Bill Clinton (who was Ron Reagan light) in sheep's clothing, then Hillary is Obama in a dress. They will all support Wall Street, the defense contractors, and the mutli-nationals with the only real difference between a Repub or a Dem being how much they try and allocate to public sector services and construction and how they pay for it. Otherwise government in America is business as usual regardless of the political party in power. Most political debate is over superfluous wedge issues that seek to divide voters into one camp or the other like persuading people to drink Pepsi or Koch, I mean Coke.

Account Deleted

Joe - No one has forgotten that we have crony capitalism, but at least most of Wall Street and Big Ag actually produce things of value. Washington caters to them not just because they have money, but also because of why they have money. Between big money and the sheeple, I'll go with big money. I may not agree with them most of the time, but they at least know what the heck is going on for the most part and they actually are useful to me at some point. Big money IS dangerous to our republic, but only when the sheeple vote in govts that won't follow the Constitution. Because the left wants a govt to print and hand out vast sums of dough, they will always end up with a govt that hands over a lot of it to big money as well as the sheeple. I may sound like a broken record, but it's very simple. Institute a fed govt that does nothing but safeguard our liberties, stops being a provider of goods and we will have a better nation. Nothing else will work.

Barry Pruett

Thank you to all of you who are commenting rationally and thoughtfully. Kim and I discussed the various blogs yesterday morning, and we came to the conclusion that we liked George's blog the best. Great discussions from both sides moderated by a generally solid rationality...and generally without the bomb throwing (with the exception of Todd and Pelline). I know that Todd does it on purpose, and I can only speculate and hope that Pelline angrily throws the bombs for a calculated purpose also. Personally, I like to discuss issues here with Paul Emery who is also very rational in his thought processes. I hope that George and Paul bring this solid rationality to BB on KVMR. I truly look forward to watching the episodes. Thanks for all that you do for our community.

Todd Juvinall

I see Michael A is still in a conundrum. It amuses me that he and his ilk never take part in making the community a better place but instead complain about those that do. Barry and his wife are doing their best to make America a better place and I have much respect for them. George and Russ are our Thomas Paines. I am a pain in the arse of the liberal. I love it.

One thing I can always depend on though is the liberal always goes personal. When they do I must respond in kind. I am happy to do so. All my life they were never challenged and now over the last few years they are by many conservatives on the internet and blogs. It warms the cockles of my heart that finally the left is getting their ideology smacked down to the crapola it is. Thanks MA, you always prove my point as does PaulE.

George Rebane

From time to time Jeff Pelline enters these comment streams to deliver another nasty ad hominem mudball wrapped in assertions that are either wrong or intended lies. This time it is no different. (Readers interested in some history of this exchange can search RR with keyword ‘Jeff Pelline’.) Should he offer views on the ideas and topics presented here, they will be welcomed; his attacks and snark on named individuals will be summarily deleted.

In the interval and contrary to the physical evidence, Jeff Pelline is still a very little man.

Ben Emery

George,
07 April 2013 at 06:55 PM

Those definitions are my own but I am sure there is supporting body of academic work to support my ideas. Basically it is based off of my disagreement with many liberal Democrats that comes around when the Democratic Party continues to perpetuate a corrupt dysfunctional system by implementing programs or agencies to deal with the symptoms of the problems of the day instead of dealing with the causes. I would argue that the Democratic Party was a progressive party in the era of 1930's - 1970's. LBJ, Kennedy, Truman, FDR, and even Eisenhower were liberal progressives. Programs giving a helping hand while correcting unjust laws. Very liberal progressive stuff. Since the 70's the Democratic Party has become liberal while losing the progressiveness. Constantly promoting more government programs and agencies instead of holding the culprits responsible for the poor conditions the programs/ agencies are trying to make up for. This is why I am not a Democrat and rarely support the party. Obama is the idea of the third way coming to fruition, which has resulted in a one party system. This why I constantly go after big business because I believe through cronyism they are the cause of much of the problems we face today as a nation but neither of the big two parties will hold them accountable in fear of losing funding or even worse that funding being used against themselves.

I would do some research to find examples of my interpretation but I have to go try to salvage a softball field so we can have our make up game today and still get to work. I hope this gives a little more insight on my positions.

Ben Emery


"George and Russ are our Thomas Paines"

Is this a joke?

Paine is the founding progressive that has been wiped clean off the list of founders. Thomas Paine is my favorite founder and I will not allow his name to be attached to people and ideas who would have opposed vehemently.

I would say more along the lines of being John Adams or Patrick Henry but Thomas Paine, absolutely not.

Gregory

"We're tired of George and his "endless stream of 'you know what.'" Kapiche?" -Pelline

Kapiche, Jeff. You want everyone who won't bow to the Left to go away. And they aren't going away no matter how hard you huff and you puff and try to blow their house down.

You also think of yourself as "we".

Todd Juvinall

BenE, you won't allow? Who made you king or arbiter of others? You are a prime example of a leftwing nut. Thomas Paine is your favorite founder eh? I have got to thank you though BenE for all your hot air as it exposes your philosophy to the many who read this and other blogs so they will reject you.

Paine exposed the King and his country for the tyrants they were, just as George and Russ expose the liberals for their overreach on persona freedoms and "global warming".

What a hoot!

Todd Juvinall

Regarding Pelline. I was informed be folks he worked with at the Union that he is not missed by them. I wonder why.

Gregory

Based on the multiple postings by TJ, I'm concluding I'm not the only one getting a strange error when the button gets pushed...

Can't locate object method "log_user_activity" via package "PhenoType::View"

Just ignore it, refresh the screen manually and note your screed actually got posted. Maybe typepad (or George) will figure out what went wrong.

Todd Juvinall

You are right Gregory, I am getting the same error.

George Rebane

Administrivia - the multiple postings are a TypePad glitch. Am experiencing the same error. Have deleted the repetitions. 1530: I'm now told by TypePad that the problem has been fixed.

Paul Emery

Todd

"Regarding Pelline. I was informed be folks he worked with at the Union that he is not missed by them."

Are you suggesting we we should open up your recent employment evaluations as a comparison? That will be fun if you want to go there.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, you are obsessed with me. Go take a cold shower dude. LOL!

Gregory

"Regarding Pelline. I was informed be folks he worked with at the Union that he is not missed by them."

I was told flat out by a TheUnionist that Jeff "was universally despised". In a private email Jeff offered to 'apologize' for writing I'd had a temper tantrum at a Constitution Day parade (a complete fabrication) if I'd retract that statement regarding his popularity among his former colleagues but I'd rather Jeff get away (if that's a getaway) with libel than retract what seems to be the truth. Besides, while only one source has claimed "universally despised" I have yet to hear of him actually being liked by any of the folks he was shouting at.

Back to PBS which is at least peripherally related to the thread here, I recall a KVIE begfest that had its MC reading questions from the audience; one was from a Libertarian (not me) who asked why they should donate to the station since they never cover libertarian points of view. The answer was, if you give us money, maybe we will, as backwards an answer as can be imagined.

No, cover all the news and be respected. At about the same time as that Begfest I do remember Milton Friedman being asked by Robert McNeil on the now MacNeil- and Lehrer-less News Hour about the economic platforms of the presidential candidates (this was back in '92) and he shocked the hell out of the host by flat out saying Andre Marrou, the Libertarian candidate, was the only one who made any economic sense whatsoever.

MacNeil, who apparently had no knowledge of Marrou despite being on the ballot (iirc) in virtually all 50 states asked Friedman if he had any chance... rather than "No", I wish he would have said "Only if PBS and the networks start covering his campaign".

Paul Emery

Gregory

I don't think anyone cares too much about Pelline's employment at the Union or Todd's short recent stint with CABPRO so let's move on.

The shunning of Libertarian and other third parties continues to this day with a clear operational protocol by both the Republican and Democratic parties to never give them a chance to be heard in national election debates.


Gregory

Paul, it isn't about the FUE's former employment... it's about his behavior then, and now.

The weak dynamics of 3rd parties goes beyond the overt machinations of the parties; I think the larger problem is the tribalism of the average voter. You might also remember that passage in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy... "If you don't vote for a lizard, the wrong lizard might win".

Jeff Pelline

Gregory Goodknight and his handful of cronies,
The judge-and-jury of human behavior. Thanks for making my day!

Gregory

Jeff Pelline, not the judge and jury. Just a witness.

Jeff Pelline

A witness in your own kangaroo court!

Gregory

Jeff has just been looking at my page at a networking site, so I'll guess he's working on more ad hominems to fling. Stay tuned.

As long as he's engaged, it might be reasonable to discuss a topic on which it's been impossible to break bread over and discuss without an epithet, once reserved for neo-Nazis, being flung over the table. Global warming. Who are the "deniers"?

Pelline called me a "boob" not long ago over at his blog over the subject, which, as far as I can tell, is the level of debate Jeff has with people he disagrees with. Kangaroo court, indeed. A retrenchment is now in bloom as it's become acceptable in many circles to note just how poor a track record the dioxycarbophobes have had in predicting temperatures, while scientists denounced by the chairman of the IPCC in the mid 90's as being "extremely naive and irresponsible" have had an unbroken string of successes.

As long as Jeff is reading this, here you go, have fun, fresh articles in The Telegraphj and The Economist dialing back the scare:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/9974397/Global-warming-time-to-rein-back-on-doom-and-gloom.html

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21574461-climate-may-be-heating-up-less-response-greenhouse-gas-emissions

Jeff Pelline

Gregory,
Won't bite. Bye, bye.

Gregory

No surprise there. As Eric Cartman would say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home".

But I've little doubt you did follow the links and have begun to have doubts, even if you won't admit it or discuss it like a man. Or even like a journalist, of which you had aspirations to be at one time.

Take a clue from longtime warmist Geoffrey Lean, the author of the piece in The Telegraph. He manages to signal that the "skeptics" have quite valid points without cutting his friends off at the knees.

Bill Tozer

I am taking my ball and going home. Sounds like somebody needs a hug. Hugs to you and all the Phues. I think we just made progress. Lets break bread.

Gregory

I suspect Jeff's problems have been related to getting hugs no matter what crap he's pulled. No warm fuzzies without some good behavior to be rewarded; tell him "good boy" when he's in the red zone and you just make things worse.

Even Cartman didn't improve until Cesar Milan showed up to give some rules, boundaries and limitations... Tsst!

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s10e07-tsst

Ben Emery

What Jeff correctly pointed out was the hypocrisy of George has shown by joining a show that is produced and exists with government funding. I don't find it odd at all since George's entire career is based off of public dollars.

Bill Tozer

Now Ben, that was not very cordial of you. I'll say that was not even Nevada City friendly. Sure, the County and the cities pay for some schlup to video tape their planning meetings and keep the camera rolling while they pass out to awards older public servants who are still punching the time clock.

Think Nevada City donates 3k a year to NCTV. Maybe 15k from the County. Hardly qualifies as government funding, but there is some taxpayers money involved on a small scale no doubt. I concede your point as valid. Not nearly the amount that evil monopolistic capitalistic pigs fork over to the local TV station, an invaluable resource that makes living in the foothills so unique. Like there aren't thousands of excellent alternative local stations in the USA, but we have the most unique one ever conceived by mankind. Again, I digress.

NCTV would survive without government funding. Just look at all the money the cable companies and the general public donate to the cause. Its not like Dr. Rebane was appearing with Barney the Purple Dinosaur or tooting around the track with Thomas the Train. Now if Dr. Rebane was scarfing down cookies with The Cookie Monster or pedaling Big Bird lunch pails, then I could see your point.

We are not talking PBS or NPR here. Nay, we are talking a quasi equivalent to KVMR, community supported and all that rot. Picky, picky. Pretty darn petty. Think you need a hug. Heads up, hugs coming your way.

Gregory

George's money also paid for it, and would be spent whether or not his point of view would be given equal time.

He has every right to use as much of the airtime as is humanly possible to get his point of view across.

Gregory

"NCTV would survive without government funding. Just look at all the money the cable companies and the general public donate to the cause."

Donated? I thought it was in effect extorted from the cable companies for the monopoly right to provide service and the general public has the choice to either buy cable service from the provider chosen by their rocket scientist politicians or not to have cable service.

Donated? Funny guy.

George Rebane

BenE 1040pm – Now there’s a nasty, false (aka lie), and ignorant comment. My years in the military and as a government defense contractor are well documented in these pages. In those endeavors I joined with millions of other Americans to provide a secure nation in which you and yours may continue to dispense your screeds against republicanism, capitalism, free enterprise, and individual liberties.

And your calling me a hypocrite for accepting the invitations to appear on KVMR and NCTV shows that either you are not familiar with the use of a dictionary, or you are reverting to mudball slinging in the footsteps of Pelline. I and every taxpaying American has the right to use and benefit from whatever government spends monies for, because that money was first forcefully taken out of our pockets. And that right is diminished not one whit as we struggle to reduce the size, spending, and influence of government in our lives.

You are always welcome to criticize my opinions and topics presented. But if you want to spew bullshit about me, do it on the echo chambers more receptive to that kind of discourse. Stick to the subject matter or just go away.

Todd Juvinall

What I find fascinating about the Emery's and the Pelline characters is their constant whining about we on the right calling their ideas into question and saying we are attacking them personally for doing so. And then they are the actual culprits.

Gregory

George, the debating tactic of the left, smearing anyone for partaking of programs they oppose but had no choice but to support with their taxes, is an old one. I recall Friedman dispatched it with a metaphor... something like, if someone emptied out your house in a burglary, and were untouchable, should you not stand in line to get half of it back if they decide to give it away, or should you stay away because they won't give it all back to you?

Take every penny the system says you're entitled to take, as long as there are no strings attached that don't break the deal.

Gregory

One too many negatives in that last sentence...

earlcrabb

To hear JP tell it, it's some kind of a god damn miracle that we managed to survive up here before the "Coast People" arrived to save us from ourselves. I got news for ya, Buckwheat, Nevada County has always embraced newcomers and new ideas, far more than many other small towns I've lived in and visited over the years. In fact, don't the Pellines have a contract with the county to operate their website? After all the vitriol he's hurled their way since he was relieved of his duties at the newspaper, I'd say the county has been rather generous.

JP just doesn't like anyone who doesn't accept his sage wisdom on every subject, especially if you have any conservative or libertarian leanings. Otherwise, there might be more diversity in his comment section.

Jeff Pelline

Earl,
Down Fido! The county wasn't being "generous." It awarded a contract based on merit from an RFP (request for proposal) process.
I know it was a bitter pill to swallow for you and your like-minded cronies, including your friend, the former The Union publisher, Barry, George, Russ et al. This group threw whatever crapola they could against the wall, hoping it would stick. Oh my goodness, what a real nasty public proceeding that was. Pascale captured it well on Yubanet:
http://yubanet.com/regional/Nevada-County-BOS-Process-1-Politics-0.php#.UWW-Ghz_19s
But in the end, the contract was unanimously awarded based on merit. BOS Process 1, Politics 0.
Since then, The Union publisher has left for Roseburg, Ore.; we have executed on our contract for the county (exceeding expectations), and they have thanked us in public. Our business had its best year ever. In fact, just today, one of the county offices asked for a big stack of our magazines to hand out to attendees of an upcoming conference.
We couldn't be happier!

George Rebane

Re JeffP's 1251pm - According to the well captured Yubanet report, the only contention (or "crapola" thrown against the wall), if it can be called that, was Barry Pruett's legitimate question as to why the award did not go to the lowest bidder. Apparently it was properly answered, and that was that. Since such contract awards wind up judged on subjective evaluations of merit, Bob Crabb's assessment of generosity for selecting the higher bidder is not altogether off the mark. Having said that, in retrospect I believe the county got its money's worth.

earlcrabb

In other words, you weren't "shut out" because of your relatively short time in Nevada County or your politics, which was what I said. A pity you can't stomach that attitude in others.

Todd Juvinall

So let me get this straight since I am just a simple country bumpkin.

Pelline says George should be smacked and is a hypocrite because he is invited to be on a local cable channel (no pay)? The channel is funded by the cable subscribers and the money is funneled though the government? And that is a bad thing.

While Pelline actually receives cash for attempted work for the government through a contract awarded not to the lowest bidder but to his high bid?

OK. I think I get it.

Jeff Pelline

I really didn't want to come back here. But, no Todd, you don't get it. The bids being considered were all the same amount. Read the article again:
http://yubanet.com/regional/Nevada-County-BOS-Process-1-Politics-0.php#.UWW-Ghz_19s
Hint: paragraph 11
And George, were did you get the impression that Barry's misunderstanding of the bids (cleared up by the county) was the "only" contention. In fact, it was all about politics:
http://yubanet.com/regional/Nevada-County-BOS-Process-1-Politics-0.php#.UWW-Ghz_19s
Hint: paragraph 8, 9, 12, 13
In the end, "BOS Resists Pressure from Right-Wing Activists."

Paul Emery

So Todd, accusing me of being a draft dodger is not a personal attack right?

Barry Pruett

"'The Chamber of Commerce is uniquely positioned to promote - without bias - all of the areas of tourism within Nevada County and thereby create jobs in Nevada County.' He [Pruett] went on to describe the proposed action as 'sending money down a 'cul de sac' with no clear long term plan and no vision,' referring to a lack of long-term planning. He said the Chambers' bid was lower ($17,400) and wanted to know why the lowest bid wasn't awarded the contract.'"

Case closed. Sorry Pelline...nice try to smear someone. No wonder The Union let you go. You and the Yubanet woman always have an agenda instead of reporting facts. Sad.

Russ Steele

The question is did the County get the value they were seeking, increased tourism in Nevada County from the contract. I followed the development of gonevadacounty.com using the available Internet tracking tools. The number of visitors to gonevadacounty.com increased over the course of the contract, but the desired increase in tourism jobs related jobs did not, if Food/Beverage/Lodging jobs were a valid indicator. Details can be found HERE: http://2012nevadacounty.wordpress.com/nc-tourism/

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, if you were not drafted then by definition you say you are a draft dodger. Get it? LOL!

Todd Juvinall

Pelline does not get his own nuance. That is why he has no friends.

George Rebane

Gentlemen - the draft status of RR commenters is a topic of below threshold interest to other readers.

Jeff Pelline

Rebanes Rumination readers,

Our report, unanimously accepted by the board with praise, is a matter of public record. The results are real, not based on Russ' kangaroo-court "analysis." Go ahead and read them:
ttp://www.mynevadacounty.com/nc/bos/docs/Nevada%20County%20Economic%20Development%20and%20Tourism%20Marketing/GoNevadaCounty%

Your efforts to smear me and our family because you don't like our "middle of the road" views failed miserably. And it's been downhill for all of you ever since.
I couldn't be happier!

Jeff Pelline

George,
Why did your blog template kick out the URL for our report? Anyway, I've reposted it again.
http://www.mynevadacounty.com/nc/bos/docs/Nevada%20County%20Economic%20Development%20and%20Tourism%20Marketing/GoNevadaCounty%20Website%20maintenance/GNC%20Final%20Report%207-15-12.pdf

George Rebane

JeffP 817pm - TypePad did not "kick out" any URL. What you pasted in your comment was not an URL since you omitted the 'h' in 'http'.

Russ Steele

Jeff@08:20PM

A very nice self assessment. Did the BOS issue any acceptance documents, or was the "unanimously accepted by the board with praise" just a verbal appraisal of the report? Were there any third party assessments, other than my monitoring effort to see if tourism increased as a result of your marketing efforts? I did not see any in the Nevada County Business News data during the course of the contract.

Jeff Pelline

PaulE,
Once again, our family would like to thank you, the staff and the boards of NCTV and KVMR for your astute judgement in bringing George Rebane (and by extension, his pals) onto your "news" and news analysis programs. Hope they all get to read this thread and also "dig deeper" into the wisdom and philosophy of Rebane's Ruminations. I can't think of a better way to polarize the community right in the middle of their big fundraising campaigns, but we'll leave that up to you to sort out. Good luck!

Russ Steele

Jeff@09:46

Has it ever occurred to you that George and Jo Ann maybe one of the major contributors to KVMR and to NCTV? Stop and think of a minute before your next post.

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