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22 May 2013

Comments

Dai Meagher

I found Rosa Koire's presentation very educational. I recognized people from all persuasions in the audience and observed that with only a few exceptions, she received a standing ovation at the end. Her personal background helped to remind the audience that this is truly a non-partisan issue that affects us all--especially here in Nevada County.

-Dai Meagher

Bill Tozer

Can't say you haven't warned us repeatedly, Dr. Rebane. Guess that makes you a conspiratorial fear monger who wants nothing more than to poison your neighbor's well and pave Paradise. And a hate monger to boot.

Since you oppose the grandiose plans of mice and men, that makes you part of the Great Right Wingnut Conspiracy. Bet you are clinging to your guns and Bible as you read this and have a Don't Tread On Me flag hidden in your closet.

The first question I have has to do with that antiquated pesky thing called the US Constitution, where personal rights supersede the State. A foreign notion of by-gone years I know. What are they going to do with the Constitution under the guise of "local control"?

The second question is "who will be the boss of me?" I hope it is not some blue helmeted dudes from the UN who have diplomatic immunity while raping locals at will and remaining on payroll. They are like watching monkeys trying to hump a football.

Russ Steele

One of the major implementors of Agenda 21 in Nevada County is the US Forest Service. Just download some of the National Forest Management Plans, and put them on the table with a copy of the Agenda 21 and your can see the parallels. Our local Forester are required to write regional plan that parrot the National Plans. You can down load the plans on the Internet and then use a copy of Adobe Reader to search the plans for key works. Word that you have extracted from Agenda 21 and your will be shocked.

One of the tools they are using as justification for closing forest tracks are climate change stressors:

The new planning rule must be responsive to the challenges of climate change; the need for forest restoration and conservation, watershed protection, and wildlife conservation; and the need for the sustainable provision of benefits, services, resources, and uses of NFS lands, including ecosystem services and sustainable recreation.

National Forest System Land Management Planning
AGENCY: Forest Service, USDA.

Where is the climate change? No warming in 16 years.

There was an internal U.S. Forest Service report circulating on how climate change is effecting the Tahoe National Forest and the neighboring El Dorado National Forest: A summary of current trends and probable future trends in climate and climate-driven processes in the Eldorado and Tahoe National Forests and the neighboring Sierra Nevada. This report was written by Chris Mallek, Department of Plant Sciences; University of California-Davis and  Hugh Safford, Regional Ecologist, USDA Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Region.

I have been unable to replicate the results of this study, there is no climate change or global warming the Tahoe and El Dorado National forest once you examine the details of this study. My analysis is here:


http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2011/01/nevada-citys-impact-on-global-warming-in-the-tahoe-national-forest.html

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2011/02/placervilles-impact-on-global-warming-in-the-el-dorado-national-forest.html

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2011/02/truckees-impact-on-global-warming-in-the-tahoe-national-forest.html

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2011/02/hunt-for-the-truckee-weather-station.html

Please show me where the climate change is that is stressing our National Forest. Show me the data. This wimpy internal report has no valid standing. Valid science relies on replication. This report could not be replicated, thus it is not valid.

I pointed this out to the study authors, and they just shrugged and published the junk science. Junk science that will be used as justification for implementing Agenda 21.

Joe Koyote

Texas is one of the few places in the world that allows the burning of high sulphur coal for electrical power generation. As a result, Texas has some of the nastiest air pollution around. When George W. Bush was Governor, he instituted voluntary emissions control standards. Of the over one hundred dirtiest power plants, only four voluntarily spent the millions of dollars to clean up their exhaust. Agenda 21 is voluntary and non-binding. None of the economic super powers who generate most of the world's pollution are going to voluntarily do squat on that agenda unless someone puts a gun to their heads, and they own most of the guns and the governments. So, the point is that the whole thing is being blown way out of proportion and has become just another paper tiger to keep people fighting among themselves rather than solving the some of the problems Agenda 21 is trying to address. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.. don't get fooled again." George W. Bush

George Rebane

What most people confuse about the "non-binding" part of Agenda21 is that its implementation through insertion of comporting provisions into local general plans, building codes, land use regulations, etc are extremely binding. That's where it's hard for the minimally informed to make the connection, and that's what keeps the Agenda21 ball rolling.

earlcrabb

It's hard to make the case against Agenda 21 when you see so many instances of rural cleansing going on here in our backyard. It's a shame, because much of what the sustainability movement seeks to address is not necessarily a bad thing. Cleaning up the environment, reducing pollution and reducing dependence on fossil fuels, making sure our food is safe to eat, these are things I'm sure we can all agree are worthy goals.
The biggest problem the opposition faces is their own agenda. When Republicans start spouting birther conspiracies, convoluted definitions of rape, passing eleventh hour laws designed to keep certain blocks of voters away from the polls, and some factions even claiming that while the government can't control the climate, they are capable of creating tornadoes to punish Oklahoma Senators for not funding FEMA, well, it makes it difficult to decide which party is more batshit crazy than the other. I'm sure there were some in audience that thought Ms. Koire would be a decent human being if she would just get shock therapy to cure her satanic desire to have sex with women.

Steve Frisch

Nice to know I made Rosa's hit parade. I sometimes think the mark of a man is the enemies he keeps.

Russ Steele

I was wondering how many, if any, of our local political and economic leaders were in the audience, City Council, Board of Supervisors, Planning Commissioners, Economic Resource Council Board Members, etc.?

Gregory

RL, don't expect alternative energy to displace fossil fuels until they are less expensive to use, and that isn't now. With current reserves, that might not even be 50 years from now.

The US is expected to be a net exporter of fossil fuel energy in 5 years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22524597
Just how much more are you willing to pay for gasoline and electricity in order to make Frisch's carbon sequestration schemes appear to pay off? How much colder are you willing to make your home in the winter? In the end, that's what forcing the use of more expensive alternative energy sources means, and the sad thing is that it doesn't reduce the world's use of fossil fuels, it just makes them a little less expensive to use in the countries that don't put carbon in the penalty box. Every bit of oil that is pumped from the ground, every chunk of coal that is ripped from mother earth will be burned whether or not California uses that energy.

Joe Koyote

George 10:37-- so are saying that forces of the UN are going to local jurisdictions and implementing Agenda 21? You seem to think there is a commie in every closet just waiting to leap out and take away corporations rights to pollute and ravage the planet. I am more afraid of the Heritage Foundation, american enterprise Inst., etc. than the UN, if you want to talk about minimally informed, I suggest you examine more carefully the information provided by the oil industry funded think tanks you are so fond of using as your sources.

George Rebane

And adding to Gregory's 820am, the availability of cheaper fossil fuels in countries that use them less efficiently means more pollution all around. Talk about shooting ourselves in the shorts while putting more crap in the air, now that is progressive.

Russ 606am - Mr Koire asked for any Nevada County electeds in the audience to stand up. No one stood up.

earlcrabb 110am - Bob, re your 'Republican batshit' screed: those certainly are distressing charges that you apply with a very broad brush. I must run in rarefied circles here in Nevada County, but I know of no members of CABPRO, the Tea Party, NRA members, or Republicans hereabouts that support or hold the beliefs and actions you describe. Where on earth did you go to collect such a list?

George Rebane

JoeK 843am - "... so are (you) saying that forces of the UN are going to local jurisdictions and implementing Agenda 21?" Sadly Joe, my jaw went slack when I saw what you deduced from all my Agenda21 commentary over the years. I can only conclude that my writing skills have nowhere near the penetrating power required to communicate with you. And you may also be doing yourself a disservice by exhibiting such conclusions publicly.

Re vetting info sources. Readers who are confused about whether to believe sources ("think tanks") funded by the Left, the Right, or government should consider the markets' reactions to the information issued by such sources. And to put an even finer point on it and really ferret out the bullshit factor, consider how leftwing union pension funds invest. Follow the money.

Todd Juvinall

Joe Koyote | 23 May 2013 at 08:43 AM

Wow, I was nor aware the AEI and Heritage fielded an army. Joe give us the scoop on those two clandestine groups.

Regarding oil and other fossil fuels. Isn't the use of them simply recycling? Were they not something else and now are being used for our energy needs? Seems that locked up energy might have started out as photons? Gregory, help me out, you are the scientist.

Regarding Crabb's concerns. I too would like to know where those people are who believe as he has stated. I will shun them too. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and acquaintances who are even close to those views. Perhaps Crabb just wanted to "even" things out? Since the left has become quite the fascist entity.

A21 is all around us and in our laws and regulations. Here in our little county we fought that during the attempt to shove NH2020 down the throats of the people. Perhaps Joe Coyote would welcome the NH2020 folks on to his property (and without invitation?). Then when they found a so-called endangered plant or critter he would give up ownership to the greater good. What a hoot.

Paul Emery

George

Would you consider LAFCO to be one of the offensive agencies in Ms Korie's scenario?

George Rebane

PaulE 1029am - LAFCOs or Local Agency Formation Commissions are not offensive in and of themselves, as are not Boards of Supervisors, City Councils, and Planning Commissions. It is when they unwittingly, or worse, purposefully advance and implement initiatives which inexorably drive us toward the Agenda21 global future that they act like Ms Korie's "offensive agencies". Her exhortation is for citizens, those who don't support the A21 end, to become informed, involved, and oppose the incremental means toward that end, no matter where such means are encountered in the public forum.

earlcrabb

Okay, this is my third attempt to post a comment. I don't know where you all have been hiding, but all of my examples have been widely reported over the last year or so. The tornado conspiracy belongs to Alex Jones. I'll wait to see if this comment appears before going further...

Gregory

Geeze, RL, you had to stoop to thinking Alex Jones had anyone's ear regarding tornadoes being a secret weapon? He doesn't.

There are over 300 million people in the US. A large fraction, call it half, are conservative or leaning that way. If you assume 1% of everyone is batsh*t crazy, that means there are about 1.5 million rightwing nutcases that you can quote out of context to make the Right appear as crazy as you want. And the Right can do the same to the Left. Ben E. even delivers usable material directly to RR, cutting out the middlemen.

I know a former elected county official, arguably sane despite an unnatural fascination with Art Bell and alien encounters, who thinks Bush was behind 9/11 and can't quite put their finger on why Obama hasn't done anything about it. Must be the conspiracy was even worse than they thought.

earlcrabb

Hey! It worked! Okay, so I guess you all forgot about those Senate seats you lost in the last two election cycles. The birther conspiracies have been featured prominently, even here on George's blog. The opposition to anything gay is standard practice in GOP politics, just ask the Log Cabin Republicans.

All this deniability makes me weak from laughter. Republicans would vote for any crazy nominee as long as he or she didn't have a "D" after their name. It's the lesser of two evils syndrome that seems to keep Republicans in the political wilderness.

Gregory

Earl, Clint Curtis (D-Mars), a certifiable conspiracy nutcase in his native Florida, briefly unpacked his carpetbag in these parts to run for Congress not long ago, proving that local Dems will vote for anyone who has a D next to their name.

It's a shame Ben E. couldn't even outpoll the loony tourist.

Bill Tozer

This has been the quietest tornado season since 1994 or something like that. Appears to the untrained eye that them Priuses are really making a difference. Could be the recycling bins are changing things as well....I may be batshit crazy, but I ain't stoopid

Todd Juvinall

So let me get this straight RL. The Senate seats were defeated in their respective states and there were majority R's in registration in them. I would say the R's defeated them wouldn't you?

Regarding homosexuals. It appears to me you are asking the religious folks in America to give up their belief about that topic as it is written in the Bible. Does that mean you think it is OK to deny or go against your belief s? What beliefs would you personally give up that you hold dear? It is my understanding the Christian tenet is hate the sin but not the sinner. Is that something you can accept?

I just heard the Rhode Island US Senator Whitehouse say the tornado's were caused by the people of Oklahoma because they do not believe in Global Warmimg and they sell oil. He is a moderate democrat so would he be representing all the democrats?

George, you are correct about LAFCO to a degree. I was on LAFCO as a Supe and then I was subject to it as a property owner being forced to annex to Grass Valley. LAFCO became a tool to exploit eco issues as one can see from the requirements when GV was trying to annex the SDA's over the last 20 years. California law says even LAFCO has to do EIR's and other studies (paid for by applicants).

Paul Emery

Todd

"I just heard the Rhode Island US Senator Whitehouse.......tornado caused by people of Oklahoma." Pretty outrageous if true. Can you send me documentation?

Gregory

Paul, Todd gets a bit carried away at times but Whitehouse did say the following"
"When cyclones tear up Oklahoma, and hurricanes swamp Alabama, and wildfires scorch Texas, you come to us, for billions of dollars to recover.

And the damage your polluters and deniers are doing doesn’t just hit Oklahoma and Alabama and Texas; it hits Rhode Island with floods and storms, and Oregon with acidified seas, and Montana with dying forests. So like it or not, we’re in this together.

You drag America with you to your fate."

To date, not a single weather event has been definitively linked to CO2, including Sandy, whose storm track was shown to not have any demonstrated warming from any cause. It's all just rhetoric by latter day Chicken Littles like Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI)

Paul Emery

Gregory

That's a typical Toddism. No documentation, pure fantasy.

Gregory

Paul, I've seen worse paraphrasing; if Todd was supporting one of your sacred cows I'd guess you'd be giving him a pass.

BTW, direct from the horse's patootie:
AFP-GENEVA
" Rajendra Pachauri, head of the UN-backed Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, said data was still coming in about Monday’s massive tornado which tore through a suburb of Oklahoma City, killing at least 24 people.

“Could there be better preparedness in general? Yes. What could better preparedness have been? Well it’s very difficult to say at this stage,” Pachauri told reporters in Geneva.

“But one really cannot relate an event of this nature to human-induced climate change. It’s just not possible. Scientifically, that’s not valid,” he said."

earlcrabb

Just to refresh your memories, Indiana Senate candidate Richard Mourdock lost Indiana, a solid red state, after declaring that rape was "something God intended." Todd Akin should have mopped the floor with Claire McCaskill in Missouri, but lost after his comments on "legitimate rape." Sharon Angle blew an easy one to displace Harry Reid in an otherwise GOP landslide year. And just today right wing icon Glenn Beck saw a conspiracy by CNN to advance the cause of atheism when Wolf Blitzer interviewed an Oklahoma tornado survivor who claimed God had nothing to do with it.
It's difficult to paint the GOP as mainstream when they advance these ideas on an almost daily basis.

Gregory

Just to refresh your memory, RL, the GOP powers that be weren't in their camps to begin with, actively tried to get Akin off the ballot and, barring that, gave him no support and there was evidence that Reid supporters were boosting Angle in the primaries.

Any evangelical Christian is going to think any pregnancy is a gift from god on some level (especially if they weren't the one who got raped) and an experienced politician would know when to bite his or her tongue on any subject. The problem of TP candidates in general has been one of sending untested amateurs up against seasoned pros.

George Rebane

PaulE 146pm - Were not the good senator's pronouncements also "pure fantasy"? Were not the senator's "polluters and deniers" of Oklahoma their oil producers and sellers, and those Sooners who deny AGW? If so, then Todd's 1225pm was not all that much off the mark, and most certainly it was NOT the "pure fantasy" that achieves the level in Senator Whitehouse's remarks.

Paul Emery

George

Whitehouse's sarcastic comments were reconstructed by Todd to fit his needs. You surely can see that.

George Rebane

PaulE 311pm - Given that Greg's 138pm quote is correct, I see nothing "sarcastic" in the senator's remarks save genuine anger at what he considers profligate Sooner behavior. And that, I fear, happens to be the only pure "pure fantasy" that is going on regarding the senator's statement. My 257pm stands.

earlcrabb

Greg 2:43pm - Untested amateurs? I believe most of the Tea Party candidates were elected representatives, except for O'Donnell in Jersey. The Tea Party is the dominant faction of the GOP as far as primaries go. In California, it's an even harder climb for the party when their voter registration threatens to fall below independents, Tuesday's state senate win notwithstanding.

bill tozer

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/05/22/after-oklahoma-city-tragedy-shameless-politicians-unsheath-global-warming-card/

Gregory

RL, Angle was a substitute teacher for 25 years; yes, the Nevada Assembly (her only elected office) is amateur hour and her service was more amateur than most. In 2006 she lost the primary for a Congressional seat to Dean Heller (then the Sec'y of State in NV, now the junior Senator from Nevada), had *never* run for a statewide orifice and her last win for a low budget Ass'y seat was in 2004. Reid ate her for lunch, with the hotel service unions making the difference.

Mourdock lost every try for congress, barely made it as state treasurer, not exactly a springboard. A not ready for prime time player when it came to being a Senator.

Akin was experienced as a rep in the state legislature and congress, from a safe seat in a Red district. He should have known better, and had he fallen on his sword as soon as he screwed the pooch there'd be another R in the senate and maybe in the Oval office.

Too bad about O'Donnell, above average cute and would have been a boon to cartoonists coast to coast.

The woman who would be Governor, Meg Whitman, didn't even bother to vote for 28 years and thought governor was a fine entry level job in politics.

Carly Fiorina thought Senator would be her entry level job five years after being axed from HP but Boxer proved that age, treachery and campaign skills honed by years of doing nothing but campaigning does trump relative youth and skill. Too bad, a more credible candidate could have made a difference... even the LA Times didn't endorse her in the primary, stating, "On the Democratic side, we find that we're no fans of incumbent Barbara Boxer... She displays less intellectual firepower or leadership than she could." I

In short, yes, the Dems do a better job of grooming candidates, possibly because they don't see government as a necessary evil but rather, a way of life.


Gregory

George 3:21

Senator Whitehouse was dead serious when dumping on "deniers" from the oil producing states for their culpability in creating the tornado. So was (who else?) Barbara Boxer, who used the occasion of dead Okies young and old to call for a carbon tax.
http://www.examiner.com/article/barbara-boxer-blames-global-warming-for-oklahoma-tornado-calls-for-carbon-tax

Gregory

Paul, if you still think Sen.Whitehouse was trying for parody, here's the CSPAN footage:
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/20/democratic-senator-goes-on-anti-gop-rant-over-climate-change-as-tornadoes-hit-oklahoma/#ixzz2TsyeamLC

He was dead serious; Whitehouse and Boxer are peas in a pod.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE just has a problem with his views. He claims I am in a fantasy on Whitehouse even in the face of the facts and videos as Greg has shown. Yet PaulE still believes there was another shooter on the grassy knoll. Amazing!

Todd Juvinall

AS I recall the Senate races RL, the "Party" did thei damndest to get those three nuts off the card. How can you paint the party as nutty when they rejected them? I know it is easy to paint all of a group or party since I had to bear that as a contractor back in the 70's. But unlike the "Muslims" who do not condemn terrorism by their few, we at least try to boot the nuts out.

It appears to me that when a liberal like PaulE supports MJ, they are as dedicated in its support and they have blinders on to any debate against it. Why is it a lefty can keep his unbending views and a conservative cannot?

Paul Emery

Either way the turnout for the event (Rosa Koire) was pretty weak, only 200 according to George. It's a pretty fringy viewpoint that is reflected by the small house. They had over 1000 (sold out) for Michael Moore and 800 twice for Amy Goodman and a sellout (1000) for Michael Ruperts talk on Peak Oil three years ago. The small turnout was kind of surprising because the marketing was pretty good.

Todd Juvinall

That is the best you got PaulE? nany nany nany. What a hoot.

Paul Emery

Just an observation Todd for what it's worth about the relative interest in the speakers being presented at the Vets Hall. You can form your own opinion as to what it means.

Todd Juvinall

So why put it here if you were not trying to make a point? You think we are all stupid? Sheesh Paul, you are too much. This is your style man, we all know why you do it.

Paul Emery

Well it sure got your attention Todd. Thanks for verifying this.

Todd Juvinall

Golly, I guess one of us should have commented about the six or eight APPLE types on the overpass. Wow! What wonderful reporting. LOL!

Bill Tozer

The turn out was not as important as the words she said. This is like commenting on the softness of the toilet paper in the Vet Hall bathroom rather than debating if the speaker's word ring true.

Paul Emery

Bill

I take you don't think that the size of the turnout relates to the amount of interest or support of the topic or the speaker ?

Ryan Mount

Fallacy Ad Populum, Or the 50 Million Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong Fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

"The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence [emphasis mine] for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim."

That's not to say that greater mobs can't be correct/true/whatever. But it's incorrect to think that Michael Moore or Amy Goodman or ABC TV's The View is any closer to the truth because of their popularity. If Post-Modernism has taught us anything, it's that often truth lies in the margins.

Note: in this case, 50,000,000 Elvis are correct.

Ryan Mount

*fans.

50,000,000 Elvis fans. Stupid Interwebs.

Not that I doubt there are 50,000,000 Elvis impersonators out there.

George Rebane

re PaulE's 112pm - turnout does relate to many things including the amount of interest for the topic or speaker. For the record, NC Friends of Military was holding its monthly packing party for the deployed troops in the big cafeteria under the GV Vets auditorium. That split the attendance. The other factor to consider is that Michael Moore is an internationally known (celebrated?) and media prominent leftwing film maker, while Rosa Koire is an ardent but unknown voice in the wilderness.

Finally, as Messrs Tozer and Mount point out, the importance of a topic does not always correlate with interest in it or a given event's turnout. This takes nothing away from local liberals who know how to put on a good event.

Russ Steele

Paul,

The turn out at the Meeting in the Vets Hall was diminished in part because it was schedule in conjunction with the Friends of Nevada County Military Packing Party, which had some conservative member who would liked to have attended. The other issue was the lack of parking at the Vets Hall. With both activities going on at the same time the parking lot was full and as were the street parking on Auburn Street. While we were looking for a place to park, several cars came into the parking lot and circled and then left. Who knows what other competing activities were scheduled that evening.

Paul Emery

Russ, George-Why did it start at 5:30? Not a great time for working people who like to have dinner after work.

George Rebane

PaulE 230pm - Beats hell out of me. I was an attendee, not the organizer. Chuck Shea (ED CABPRO) should be consulted on all such matters.

Michael Anderson

The Blue Helmet People are slowly gobbling you up. There is no escape:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/25/opinion/this-is-not-2009.html?hp

fish

The Blue Helmet People are slowly gobbling you up. There is no escape:

Charles Blow? Really?

Man.......standards have really fallen at the "Old Gray Lady"!

Steve Frisch

Hey George, can you send me Chuck Shea's e-mail address in a private e-mail. (or Chuck if you are reading can you send me an e-mail a sfrisch@sierrabusiness.org) I would like to get a copy of the videotape made by CABPRO of the event.

By the way, if Ms. Korie would like to come back to Nevada County, or the Sierra, I would love to meet her in open debate, in an independent format, moderated by a third party. I am willing top pay her travel expenses and event costs.

Michael Anderson

...and the trap is set.

Interesting bait, though I would suggest something a little more peanut-butter based, or tickets to The Dinah.

And once she returns, the Nevada County blue helmet people will whisk her away in a black helicopter to their undisclosed location and force her to watch endless documentaries about Rana muscosa depredation.

Paul Emery

What a great idea Steve. It could possibly be broadcast on KVMR. Her assumptions are highly debatable and it would be interesting to see it they hold up in a debate rather than in a lecture to an adoring crowd.

George Rebane

SteveF 859am - Here's a direct contact link.
http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/invite-rosa-to-speak.html

George Rebane

PaulE 932am - To whet our appetites for the possibility of the such an event, please let us in on one or two of her highly debatable assumptions. Thanks.

Steve Frisch

Thanks for the direct contact George....

Paul, if KVMR is interested in acting as a neutral convener, and recruiting an appropriate mutually agreed upon moderator and a fair format, I would be very interested in participating in a true debate. I would prefer such an event be free to the public if possible and that speaking fees be deferred.

It is worth exploring off line where I will now take this discussion in the interest of not litigating conditions publicly out of respect for those potentially involved and in the process.

Paul Emery

Sure George Here's a start.

"Moreover, people should be rounded up off the land and packed into human settlements, or islands of human habitation, close to employment centers and transportation........High density urban development without parking for cars is the goal. This means that whole towns need to be demolished and rebuilt in the image of sustainable development. Bike groups are being used as the 'shock troops' for this plan.
"

what towns have been demolished?

Michael Anderson

"Bike groups are being used as the 'shock troops'..."

This would explain why I saw Duane Strawser wearing a blue bike helmet the other day! The pieces are all starting to fit together. Hmmmmmm...

Steve Frisch

I am going to defer my participation in debate on this issue via this venue for the time being pending Ms. Korie's response to the invitation I extended to her to this morning for a respectful public debate at some time in the near future. I will inform readers here, and at other venues, once an agreement about timing, format and location are reached.

Bill Tozer

Mr. Anderson, lol. Since I was a wee lad, there has been talk about a one world government. Peace upon the land and the appearance of the Anti-Christ. The Trilateral Commission of the Carter disaster years, etc, etc. I am certain that it has been someone's plans pre-dating Alexander the Great.

However, I am always on guard for "the wolves in sheep's clothing" to use a ancient metaphor. The dots are there to connect. The urban development models have long been espoused by the Sierra Club and urban planners looking forward. Free space is to be locked up and unused by the owners of private property. The unwashed hordes are to be. huddled together in little honey comb pods. The Utopia planners dismiss the "too many rats in a cage" arguments and the human free spirit.

I am leery of someone or some committee in charge. The old "for the better good" is a dangerous path because of the frailties of human beings. We are corruptible and each has a price. Speaking of paths, why is the Road to Hell paved with good intentions?

As long as UN peacekeepers can rape and rob villagers without prosecution or penalty, then, yes, I fear them blue helmeted dudes. They don't care much about a nation's sovereignty. In fact, they are opposed to it. Hate to have the UN Human Rights Committee be the boss of me or my acreage.

Russ Steele

Steven Frisch

Have you attended the ICLEI (International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives) training camp?

I heard that some of the County Staff may been to ICLEI training, it was one mentioned in a Friday Memo.

Do you know if have any of our elected County and City leaders have attended ICLEI Training Camps?

George Rebane

PaulE 1042am - Thanks for the insight. But again you misunderstand and then misconstrue. What you cited is not a Rosa Koire "assumption", but simply relating from the GOALS in the Agenda21 Rio publication. Please give us another one.

"what towns have been demolished?" is then a question ranging somewhere between snarky and lame. But looking at how certain towns (e.g. Petaluma, Santa Rosa) have already redeveloped certain sections to conform with A21 goals is a bit scary (at least to me). These are neighborhoods with the obligatory apartments above commercial space on narrow streets with broad sidewalks - and they remain eerily empty. So clearly there must be some more 'nudging' by the state before people begin to appreciate what those clever central planners are doing for them.

Todd Juvinall

What fascinates me about liberals is they are usually very patient in accomplishing their goals. One needs only look at the homosexual activists and our own liberal California legislature. PaulE seems to think it has to be a town destroyed by bulldozers I guess, and right away, before he would even consider the tenets of A21.

Well, one only need to look at any "General Plan" and implementing zoning ordinances of any jurisdiction to see the tentacles of the agenda (George Orwell would recognize the wordsmithing). I compare the placement of like minded people in the landuse arena with "journalists". They are all trained by the same people and with the same philosophy. Then they spread out to all jurisdictions and infect them, just like a virus. Over time they will have polluted all the little minds of mush and then we will have a 100% nation of morons instead of just 50% as we see now with the democrat party and people like BenE and Frisch.

I would like to see Frisch ripped to shreds in a debate by that woman. I heard her a few times on SF radio stations and she is very good. He would not stand a chance.

Steve Frisch

Re: [25may13 update] by George Rebane (and by extension Todd)

Rather than fueling speculation why don't we allow Ms. Korie and appropriate time to respond, and us appropriate time to consider format, venue and timing, should she consider such an event. As you said George, the purpose should be to provide more light than heat and speculative discussion about the 'event' itself merely serves to risk relegating us to hot darkness.

Of course that should in no way impede dear readers from engaging in debate over the broader topic of ramifications or irrelevance of A21 itself here.

George Rebane

SteveF 1224pm - Agreed. The only purpose for speculating in my update was to promote interest in what I hope would be a respectful and informative debate (or even a discussion). Nuff said.

Paul Emery

RE George 11:42

"what towns have been demolished?" is then a question ranging somewhere between snarky and lame.

Not true George. It's a direct followup to her statement about what will happen in her view. Not much controversy there.

http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/

If you cannot in a reasonable debate ask for examples of opinions then what can you talk about?
George

Here's another gem from Ms Korie

"Slowly, people will not be able to afford single family homes. Will not be able to afford private cars. Will be more dependent. More restricted. More easily watched and monitored."

Who will be watching and monitoring and for what purpose?


George Rebane

PaulE 146pm - What you differentiate is what the A21 report says and her citing of it. They are the same, and her citations are therefore not assumptions. If I am holding a picture of a P-51, and say that the picture contains an image of a P-51, most reasonable people will not ascribe my citation of the picture's content as my "assumption".

The "gem" you point out is just another example of the same. The price of detached single family homes on suburban sized lots is going up, especially wrt metrics like the median wage. Also the ability to do what you want inside or outside of such homes is being diminished by regulation. The net effect is that this is constructively removing access to and ownership of such homes by the general public. And such examples can be given for all manner of conveniences and personal assets that run counter to A21 objectives. These are not assumptions, they are happening around us and have been doing so for some time now. Only the most dedicated progressives will tighten their blindfolds so as not to see this, and that's what keeps it going.

Would all this be happening without the A21 document? - probably to one extent or another. After all, the progressives penchant for central planning and control predated A21 by some decades. But today we can refer to A21 as the international bible that defines objectives for a controlled (therefore heavily monitored) population, and a document that gives structure to the achievement of these objectives, especially through the activities of the thousands of its worldwide ICLEIs.

Gregory

Ryan (2:04PM yesterday), yes, Paul was trotting out the old argumentum ad populum to intimate it had meaning, though he was smart enough to not say that directly.

Despite having an Elvis number of 2, I'll make the claim that the 5E7 Elvis fans weren't right but can be forgiven considering his competition at the time. Personally, I prefer Jerry Garcia's singing and guitar playing to Presley's, and the best answer for the best vocalist of the 20th century that I've ever heard justified is Louis Armstrong. When he sang happy you'd be happy, and when he sang sad you'd be sad; for a vocalist, it doesn't get better than that.

I've "Change of Habit", not one of Elvis' best movies, on the TV right now, courtesy of a STARZ pay-tv Elvis minimarathon. At the moment he (playing an MD) and Mary Tyler Moore (an RN and a nun) have cured an autistic girl with a couple hours of mild psychological torture, setting medicine back a couple decades.

Gregory

To all the Agenda21 arguees, the Agenda21/sustainability basis is the global warming scare that the IPCC was formed (a couple decades ago) to combat, see how bad it would be, and to get reparations paid by the first world to the third world for being the first ones to get to use it.

Both the theory and the weather supporting it are falling apart. We're no longer in a natural warming period and indications that we really are in the beginning of a cold phase will make it harder and harder to beat the bushes to scare little kids and the likes of Steven Frisch. Once AGW is discredited, "Agenda21" should fold. The petrochemical age is not ending this century, and there's no reason to think the only tipping point worth paying attention to is when an alternative energy generation technology gets so cost effective that market forces start allowing us to not burn fossil fuels. Personally, I still hope a deuterium fusion is in our future but even that would run out eventually.

Gregory

Oooops, that sentence should have read,"and there IS reason to think the only tipping point worth paying attention to is when an alternative energy generation technology gets so cost effective that market forces start allowing us to not burn fossil fuels."

Make reasonable regulations regarding pollutants the use of fossil fuels emit, and no, carbon dioxide isn't a pollutant.

My favorite CARBON DIOXIDE story: As a freshman on my way to a BS Physics, I was caught by an interesting demonstration and claim by an exhibit hanging on one of my prof's office door. A clear cylinder, maybe 2" by 12", made of some polymer, was mounted above the words CARBON (in blue) and DIOXIDE (in red) with text explaining that the material in question had different optical qualities for red and blue light. Sure enough, CARBON was inverted but DIOXIDE was not. This door was across from the Physics lounge which had a number of seniors, physics majors all, hanging out and drinking coffee, watching me.

The claim that the optics would be so different as to have that effect didn't make sense so I took a piece of paper and slipped it in from the bottom, between the text and the clear rod, revealing where the bull came from... of course both were inverted, but DIOXIDE in caps in that particular font was perfectly symmetric about the horizontal centerline thus making it appear it wasn't being inverted.

Dr Cooper was a great practical joker.

I uttered something of an "aha!" and got a round of applause from my youthful elders; they were apparently hanging around to snicker at the more gullible frosh who were taking it seriously and coming back repeatedly to take measurements to try to figure out the magic.

As chemist J.Arthur Campbell used to say, "One clean experiment is worth a thousand dirty equations."

Paul Emery

Gregory


You're back on comfortable ground Gregory (AGW). Perhaps towns needing to be demolished and bike groups are being used as 'shock troops' is too much for you

Gregory

Paul, I've written that here about Agenda 21 in the past; the impetus goes away when AGW does.

There's no need to give such power to central planners if the world's fate doesn't depend on CO2, and it doesn't. The moral authority to push the world to small and cold goes away when no one who needs votes can push AGW with a straight face; it's already a staple for late night comedians.

Funny how the alarmists at the top, the Gores and the James Camerons of the world, never gave up their Gulfstreams. Power to the correct people!

George Rebane

To all that I am reminded of something I scribbled almost four years ago.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/11/placing-my-lance.html

Russ Steele

[I have decided to also add this extensive comment by Russ Steele as an update to the body of my post. gjr]

Nevada County’s initial brush with Agenda 21 was the NH2020 initiative that was managed by Sierra Business Council under the guidance of Izzy Martin, then the BOS Chair and charter member of the Gang Four that were promoting sustainable development, which was eventually written in to the County land use plans and regulations. Not with an Agenda 21 sub title, but with the full intent of implementing sustainable development. And, we are living with the economic results today.

Sustainable Development entered the world officially in 1987 in a report of the United Nations Commission on Environment and Development entitled, "Our Common Future". This commission was chaired by Gro Harlem Brundtland, Prime minister of Norway and Vice-President of the World Socialist Party.

The theme of this report was "meeting today's need's without compromising future generations to meet their own needs". If one is to look, this mission statement has been incorporated into many government and non-government organizations. You will find this them embedded in their mission also, but it will be called "community planning", "comprehensive planning", "growth management planning", or "smart growth". I am sure your have heard those words tossed around in public meeting in Nevada County.

Community planning, it is based on the creation of councils called "visioning councils". These councils are manipulated in such a way as to arrive at a pre-determined outcome. The professional facilitators of the meeting work hard to make sure all those involved are easily swayed into being agreeable. The process utilizes group manipulation tactics. Most people fear the thought of looking foolish in front of others and tend to keep quiet.

I went to the Sierra Business Council Leadership Training program, where we were taught how to control the out come of public meetings. How to insure the group eventually agreed with the per-determined out come. Out comes which could be reported in the press, presented at Supervisor and City Council Meetings as the will of the community. We learned how to handle vocal opposition, those unwilling to go along with the pre-determined vision by using mockery to shut them up, or get them to not return to future visioning sessions.

Sacramento Region went through this visioning process and developed a “Blue Print” for the region, including surround counties of Yuba, Sutter, Yolo, Sacramento, and Placer County. Nevada and El Dorado County were excluded from the “Blue Print” region. Maybe because of the strong conservative forces in these counties, that would see through the visioning process and the predetermined outcomes.

Your can see the Full Preferred Blue Print here -- http://www.sacregionblueprint.org/

The Sac Metro Transportation Blue Print for Sustainable Community is here -- http://www.sacog.org/2035/

When your look at this Blue Print for Sustainable Community it is clear the goal is to reduce vehicle miles traveled (VMT) by building transit centric communities, with walking paths, bike trails and golf cart paths linking to transit facilities, business and shopping centers. This goes back to Greg’s point about AGW. The reason for reducing VMT is to reduce CO2 emissions.

We were fortunate to have beat down NH2020, but it will come back in other forms. Remember that when you are invited to a community vision meeting. You will be being lead down a predetermined path to sustainability under the influence of Agenda 21. No one will mention Agenda 21, only the buzz words of sustainable development.

What can you do? Ask your Supervisor/City Council Person if he or she has attended the SBC Leadership Training Program. Ask if they have attended the ICLEI (International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives) training seminars, if they have funded Staff to attend the SBC Training or ICLEI Training? Do the same at your City Council Meeting.

And, last but not least, go to the vision meetings with a clear understanding what they are up to and make your voices heard, there is no place for Agenda 21 in Nevada County. We did it for NH2020 and we can do it again!

Ben Emery

Let me ask you guys this, what is wrong with "sustainable" development? I would call it responsible development but that is just me.

Ben Emery

As everyone might have noticed I don't chime in on Agenda 21 because I don't know jack about it. Yet somehow I talk about it in code words all the time. I think the opposition might be reading way too much into this idea and its implementation. If it is true that we are being force fed stuff decided by the UN on how we need to set up our communities, I am against it. If it is implemented at the local level due to our local elected officials isn't that what we want local control of our policies?

Paul Emery

So Russ what is your vision of regional planning of highways for example?

George Rebane

BenE 747am - There is nothing intrinsically wrong with sustainable development per se. Unfortunately people minimally informed think of 'sustainable development' as coming only in the A21 fulfilling form and formats as proposed by our progressive cadres. Sustainable development can be beneficially adopted in many forms and levels of cost. Since everything 'sustainable' has been co-opted as a propagandized battle cry by the Left, opposition to their version is then attacked as opposition to all forms of sustainable development - i.e. it's their way or the highway.

As a technician and great/grand/parent I am in strong support of sustainable development, but not as envisioned by the A21 crowd.

Steve Frisch

JeeZ George, have we been saying the same thing all along.....? My key point is that A21 is actually irrelevant....it is a non-entity. I am not a supporter of sustainable development because of A21....I am a supporter of it because it makes sense....and was a supporter of it long before anyone even knew what the hell A21 was. No one gives a damn about some completely un-enforceable UN guidance document done more than 20 years ago. People are simply elevating its profile as a means of attacking the idea that we need to do better planning and they perceive that as a threat to their individual interests. It is a propaganda ploy, not a real issue.

The history of regional planning, changing development patterns, and zoning in the US goes back to the rise of cities....which was a fundamentally economic trend.....nothing to do with the UN. It seems like what you are opposing is the PEOPLE who support sustainable development today rather than the idea itself.

I will get to Russ's ridiculous statements later today....

Michael Anderson

George wrote, "As a technician and great/grand/parent I am in strong support of sustainable development, but not as envisioned by the A21 crowd."

How will we know who's a member of the A21 crowd and who's not?

Steve Frisch

Anyone whose motivations they question is part of the A21 crowd, anyone whose projects they support are 'wealth creators'.

George Rebane

MichaelA 931am - "... a member of the A21 crowd ..."?? As explained in painstaking detail on RR (also reinforced by Rosa Koire), you don't have to be a button-wearing, card-carrying, banner-waving A21 promoter to support various local initiatives that conform to the tenets of A21. I had no idea that this concept had such limited accessibility (perhaps I should email Ms Koire with a heads up).

And SteveF (952am) seems to suffer from a variant of this same malady (here I'm discounting the comment's snark which also has explanatory power). The motivations of "the A21 crowd" have never been impugned. These are sincere albeit terribly misguided people doing what they think is good for Man and Gaia. And yes, here on RR we do support those who create society's wealth, for without ample amounts of discretionary wealth, humanitarian efforts grind to a halt.

And as to SteveF's 859am, that has all been acknowledged and fully discussed on these pages. Of course A21 has a large propaganda element as it gathered together an existing and multifarious progressive agenda. But the propaganda element was intended by the UN and its international progressive cohorts when they assembled and promoted the Rio document. And the "people (who) are simply elevating" A21 are the same ones who have established and are vigorously operating the global network of ICLEIs. That does not seem to bother you or your progressive brethren. It is only when this is pointed out by people like me that all of you get your dander up.

Your silliness is compounded by the frequent return to the notion of 'unenforceable A21 provisions'. None of A21's provisions are enforced under that banner, nor do they need to be. They are promulgated and enforced locally by the local government guns with no reference to A21 as an overarching motivation. But I think that notion for you has been and continues to be a bridge too far.

Steve Frisch

I think you missed the point George...when a friend of your builds a green building or places a solar panel on their roof, are the dupes of the UN, or are they prudent investors in energy efficiency?....the difference seems to be whether you like them or not.

To say the motivations of the A21 crown have never been impugned is demonstrable false on these very pages. You have openly supported the claim that they are pushing a socialist agenda and that their goal is to diminish individual rights.

George Rebane

SteveF 1055am - Once more for the slow/recalcitrant student. My identifying someone as pushing a socialist agenda is not impugning their motives. I have never met a socialist who does not want all things sweetness and light for humanity, their motives are as pure as the fresh driven snow. It is their inability to see the inevitable aftermath of their agenda that I point out and oppose. And I also oppose the underhanded methods used to achieve their goals (an orthogonal notion).

But then, as this record shows, I do that also for the Republicans who promote crony capitalism and efforts to elevate corporations to sovereign nation-state peerage on the global scene. And most certainly I oppose the Repubs' folding on principles as they bargain to pass progressive legislation in order to get some favor returned. But again, that's another bridge too far.

George Rebane

In the '26may13 update2' I post Ms Koire's response to SteveF's proposal to debate. Unfortunately it looks like we're going to miss out on what would have been a most informative exchange.

Steve Frisch

WTF, why is my whole message not being posted?

George Rebane

SteveF 1155am - what message?

Steve Frisch

Sent to Ms. Koire at 10:30 am May 25th:

Dear Ms. Koire:

My name is Steve Frisch. I'm the President of the Sierra Business Council, based in Truckee California. We have exchanged comments via social media in the past but never met.

I would be interested in meeting and having a discussion re: our understandings of A21 and how it is (or is not) embedded in our planning processes and culture. I would be happy to spring for lunch when I am in the Bay area sometime in the next few weeks.

A friend told [me] that you referenced our organization as an implementer of Agenda 21 at your recent presentation hosted by CABPRO in Grass Valley. I regret that I was unable to attend however I'm getting a copy of the tape so I can see the specific context of the comments.

I'm wondering if you might be interested in a direct public discussion of the issue in a more formal debate format? Something like the Chomsky/Buckley or the Leary/Liddy debates, perhaps hosted by the local public radio station KVMR.

You are raising some interesting issues and I believe that if we held a discussion publicly we might help shed some light on these issues.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Steve Frisch


Response from Ms. Koire at 9:30 PM May 25th

Hi Steve,
It's too bad that you weren't able to attend my very well-advertised speech or call in to either of the local radio call-in shows that I did in advance. You could have had your public exchange at that time. I have moved on to another state now and am fully booked into 2014. Unfortunately, there isn't enough time for me to return to towns and cities that I've covered.

There is nothing to debate. The truth and the proof is in the paper trail that includes not only the United Nations reports and conferences, but also the legislative history of our country and the well-documented activities of the UN organizations, Non-Governmental Organizations and associations and councils such as your own.

Rosa Koire, ASA
Executive Director
Post Sustainability Institute


Response from me at 9:30 this morning"

Dear Ms. Koire:

I regret that you decided to decline my offer. I truly think that a rational, sourced, fact based debate would be in the public interest, and could shed some light on a topic that you have contributed to elevating nationally.

I also regret that I couldn't attend the CABPRO event, which was only 'well advertised' in a small area in a like minded crowd within two weeks of the event. My schedule is not as busy as yours, with apparently every day for the next year booked, but I had a previous engagement. Although, as I said, I understand my organization was specifically mentioned in detail, which means you clearly did research in advance, thus if you had sought a rational discussion you could have simply called and invited me.

If you are ever interested in a real debate, with sources, facts, and impartial moderation, the offer is open and heartfelt. I am sure mutually agreeable terms could be reached. Our local public radio station (KVMR) stands ready to broadcast over a broad region of northern California, from the Sac metro region to Lake Tahoe and points north to Redding.

In the mean time I wish you luck and prosperity on your clearly busy speaking schedule to similar groups.

Sincerely,

Steve Frisch

Steve Frisch

OK, it looks like after trying since early this morning the entire thing is finally up there. George how could you have a copy of Ms. Koire's response to me to update your main post, but not have the rest?

Steve Frisch

I think we can see pretty clearly now how Ms. Koire operates. She is perfectly happy to point a finger at someone in front of a friendly self selected audience, but give her an opportunity to openly debate these issues in a fair format, with a requirement that actual sourced information be presented, and she will defer.

To the best of my ability researching her speaking appearance patterns she presents almost only to friendly audiences sponsored by like minded groups. She has done a few interviews with unfriendly media, but only under rigidly controlled conditions.

By the way, note the conciliatory tone of my initial message and the tone of the reply.

George Rebane

SteveF 1208pm - I posted what she sent me which did not include your email to her. Thanks for posting your invitation.

Michael Anderson

George wrote: "That does not seem to bother you or your progressive brethren. It is only when this is pointed out by people like me that all of you get your dander up."

The point that Steve and I are trying to make (with so far a 100% failure rate) is that the hypothetical person in local gov't you label as a socialist has been determined so only by you.

I look at plans for sustainable development and economic strategy as objectively as I possibly can, without bias as regards to who is doing the presenting, and then support or oppose them based upon the context and content of the plans.

The first time I ever heard about Agenda21 is here on this blog. So I read it, and as far as I can tell it has 0% quid pro quo to what we are doing in Nevada County to build our local economy and make this a more sustainable place to live.

Let's stop talking about NH2020, we're beating a dead horse. Which plans are in the hopper today that are "getting your dander up" to such an extent that you feel the need to beat them with your Agenda21 cudgel?

Steve Frisch

Oh, I get it, you are in a separate conversation with her....no problem. I wonder why she sent you her response but not my original offer or response? Kind of odd isn't it?

Steve Frisch

George Rebane | 26 May 2013 at 08:47 AM

"There is nothing intrinsically wrong with sustainable development per se. Unfortunately people minimally informed think of 'sustainable development' as coming only in the A21 fulfilling form and formats as proposed by our progressive cadres. Sustainable development can be beneficially adopted in many forms and levels of cost. Since everything 'sustainable' has been co-opted as a propagandized battle cry by the Left, opposition to their version is then attacked as opposition to all forms of sustainable development - i.e. it's their way or the highway.

As a technician and great/grand/parent I am in strong support of sustainable development, but not as envisioned by the A21 crowd."

I find this post fascinating. George is saying he supports sustainable development, adopting what he previously claimed was the language of A21, a language that if anyone else uses marks them as agents of the UN, but used by him is perfectly acceptable. Why is this language acceptable to George but suspect in others, those he marks as part of the "A21 crowd"?

This gets right to the crux of my argument.

A21 is actually irrelevant. It has no force of law. Decisions we make in our local communities about what amenities or services we want are local decisions, made under American law, starting at the building code and zoning level, and going all the way up, eventually, to the Supreme Courts interpretation of the Constitution.

In some cases we may plan at a larger regional scale, for example for infrastructure like sewer and highway planning, because it is determined by each jurisdiction that it is to their advantage to do so, either because it lowers cost, increases efficiency, or increases likelihood of access to regionally available funding. As Russ pointed out above, no one is forced to engage in regional planning in California, as evidenced by the fact that El Dorado and Nevada County are not part of the SACOG process. Neither are they entitled to the benefits of planning at the regional level if they choose not to participate.

In essence what George and his followers here are doing is selectively choosing WHICH efforts are legitimate local initiatives and which are agents of the UN. That is where the 'conspiracy theory' aspect of position comes in. People who advocate for a horse trail, or improved travel management plans on national forests to increase OHV use, or band together to solve Lake Wildwood's sewer problem, may be perfectly legitimate, but those using private market mechanisms to purchase conservation easements, or increase bike lanes, or implement energy efficiency programs, are dupes. And some os us, like me and my organization, are pegged as intentional implementers of a UN program, with an end game desire to reduce individual rights and liberties. This is where the assigning motivation to people's work part plays in.

I am not motivated to work for agricultural land conservation because of A21; I am because I think we need to secure a safe local supply of food, and to do that we need to protect a supply of land that can produce that food, and one mechanism to do that is providing land owners with market based payments for their development rights. These are rights that are entirely within their bundle of property rights, and they have every right to sever and sell. At the same time I might work to increase markets for locally produced agriculture, or help private agricultural landowners diversify their revenue stream by engaging in agri-tourism, or try to reduce their operating costs by doing energy conservation projects, all of which we engage in.

For George to say that my motivation in doing that is the imposition of a UN mandate is ludicrous, because it implies he knows presciently what my motivation is. Would he have the same critique of motivation of Gary Tintle wanting to re-use the Alpha Building, or SPI engaging in the conservation market (where they have sold thousands of acres of forest land for conservation in Nevada County in the last 10 years), or the Contractors Association in Truckee where they help implement low income energy programs?

As I have stated here so many times that I am now feeling like a broken record, people's desires for housing close to work, or trails, or bike lanes, or public transit, or regionalizing sewer systems, or not living next to the hog farm, or even protecting species and habitat, has nothing to do with A21, pre-dated A21, and has everything to do with millions of citizens acting through a democratic society in what they perceive to be their own self interest.

What George is really objecting to is that he does not like the decisions those people are making because he does not believe they align with his interests, and there is nothing wrong with that. More power to you George (and by extension Ms. Koire), that is your right; if you want to say some sustainable development is good and some is bad, and that you have the prescient ability to determine between the two, you go right ahead. But remember, you live in a society, and right now this entire A21 thing looks like nothing but a bunch of spoiled children stomping their feet and saying no because they can't get their way.

Paul Emery

Steve

There's an old saying that there's nothing better for religion than a good healthy devil, in this case Agenda 21.

Steve Frisch

By the way Paul, this is what I have previously called the "baby state", as opposed to the nanny state. In the baby state when people don't get their way they use every ploy, trick, propaganda method, and stalling, delaying or demonizing tactic to get their way. It is like dealing with children, which is probably why I never had kids!

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