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17 July 2013

Comments

fish

Remember George...none of this would be happening if not for our white privelege witchcraft.

Paul Emery

So if you get in a fight with someone and they are beating the crap our of you you have a right to fire away if you have a gun and you feel you're life is in danger. Do you honestly think that Martin would have been a white kid with a Dolphins cap (bill in front) the result would have been the same.

I agree with the verdict by the way. It's the law I have a problem with.


The feds (Holder) won't have a thing to do with pushing this further. You know that so why the fuss?


fish

Do you honestly think that Martin would have been a white kid with a Dolphins cap (bill in front) the result would have been the same.

Quite likely......minus all the hand wringing and political posturing.

Account Deleted

Interesting choice of words, Paul. Let's change it to - 'some one starts a fist fight with you and they are beating the crap out of you'. Makes a big difference.
As far as if Martin had been a white kid... Do you mean the same exact person with the same attitudes, but white skin or if it was a white teenager walking down the road when Zim came upon him? As long as we're going to play what if, how about it was a white teenager walking in the neighborhood and a "boy" (new acceptable liberal term for a teenage black) just leaned out the window and shot the white teenager dead while calling him a 'cracka' and sent a video to his friends? Do you honestly think the president (who is a black caucasian) would even know or care? How about you, Paul? Would this event send the white folks in America into a frenzy and start riots? Get real - a stupid kid with a bad attitude and a hot temper started beating on some one who had a gun. Sad ending. Everything else is just blah blah blah.

Paul Emery

Does anyone have a speculation as to why Martin supposedly started a fight with Zimmerman in the first place?

Gregory

"So if you get in a fight with someone and they are beating the crap our of you you have a right to fire away if you have a gun and you feel you're life is in danger." -Paul

That has always been the law in every state in the US, Paul, even in California. This also isn't "stand your ground", as if you are being sat upon and pummeled with fists and head slammed onto the edge of the sidewalk, you couldn't retreat even if you wanted to.

Account Deleted

"Does anyone have a speculation as to why Martin supposedly started a fight with Zimmerman in the first place? " Supposedly? You were there?
It actually doesn't matter. Put yourself in Martin's place. Go on - try. He had a phone and was using it.
A 'creepy ass cracka' was following him. I would just call the police. But he didn't. He was going 'take care' of this 'creepy ass cracka' himself. Kinda didn't work out like this tough guy thought it would. Oops.

talking to some one -

Gregory

Have y'all noticed the wrongful termination lawsuit filed by the whistleblower (named Kruidbos) formerly in the prosecutor's office who disclosed the contents of Martin's phone that was withheld from Zimmerman's legal team? It was barred from the trial by the prosecution-friendly judge but has been out there:

"Trial law requires prosecutors to share evidence with defense attorneys, especially if it helps exonerate defendants. The requirement is known as the Brady disclosure.

Kruidbos testified last month in a pre-trial hearing that he found photos on Martin's phone that included pictures of a pile of jewelry on a bed, underage nude females, marijuana plants and a hand holding a semi-automatic pistol."

The jury also didn't get told young Martin was under suspension from school, apparently for criminal activity handled administratively by the school, for the second time in six months.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-lawsuit-idUSBRE96F1EL20130716

Zimmerman was a wannabe hero and cop, Martin was a wannabe thug-in-training. I'd prefer not being around either but at least Zimmerman would just be a neighborhood pest, not a criminal.

Account Deleted

Missed the last line on edit. sorry. Dele

Gregory

"So if you get in a fight with someone and they are beating the crap our of you you have a right to fire away if you have a gun and you feel you're life is in danger." -Paul

A part I forgot to mention... if you're the one who started the fight in the first place, no. But the jury all thought Martin started the fight.

Paul Emery

Whats to stop someone from luring someone into a fight to create a situation where they appear to be losing so they could blow them away?

fish

Whats to stop someone from luring someone into a fight to create a situation where they appear to be losing so they could blow them away?


There was this incident in Florida......

Gregory

Maybe Zimmerman's nose started the fight by smashing into Martin's fist?

Paul, I think murderers usually try to get away with it, but without getting pummeled first. Letting your prey, stronger and taller, straddle you, hitting you about your head with fist and the edge of a sidewalk would be a novel (not to mention idiotic) way to be able to shoot them legally.

Account Deleted

Paul, you are a real treat. You just keep fabricating 'what if' scenarios that have little or no bearing on the subject. Is reality a difficult place for you to exist in?

Paul Emery

I was a Golden Gloves boxer in my teen hood and a common boxing tactic was to feint being hurt to deliver a knockout punch. It's the old "hit me first" ploy schoolyard tactic. I was just wondering.

Steve Enos

George asked... "Who honored the memory of 13-month-old Antonio Santiago?"... good question, but sadley we know what the answer is.

Where were the demonstrations, riots and distruction of public and private property and attacks on bystanders over the two Georgia black teen-agers who during a robbery shot baby Antinoin the face, killing him and wounding his mother? Were is Attorney General Eric Holder on this one?

Consider the points raised by Ted Nugent:

So this guy’s neighborhood has been burglarized off and on and the residents are very concerned for their safety and well-being. Neighbors agree to upkick their vigilance and overall level of awareness to watch out for each other and keep an eye out for suspicious individuals and behavior. It could be considered by an official designation such as “Neighborhood Watch”, but officially labeled or not, it is the purest form of Americans watching out for each other and being good neighbors. So far so good.

So George Zimmerman sees what he believes is a suspicious individual in suspicious circumstances, and intelligently and responsibly pays attention and calls 9-1-1 to report what he sees to the officials. This gesture is proof positive he was not looking to do anyone harm or break any laws, but rather perform the fundamental responsibility of a neighbor who cares.

Doing nothing illegal or improper, he follows the individual while answering all the questions from the 9-1-1 operator to the best of his ability, keeping an eye on the individual so the authorities can hopefully intercept and determine exactly what is going on.

For reasons unknown, though I will comment on momentarily, after expressing racism and hostility on the phone to a friend in response to being followed, the suspect now changes course and turns towards George and immediately initiates a hostile verbal confrontation that quickly escalate to a violent physical assault.

Within seconds, the suspect has overwhelmed George, has gained the advantage on top, pinning George to the ground, and further escalates the assault to deadly force by smashing George’s face, breaking his nose, and violently slamming his skull onto the concrete with all his youthful athleticism.

George screams frantically for help as Trayvon Martin pummels his face and head furiously, inflicting damaging and potentially life threatening wounds.

Fearing for his life and about to lose consciousness at the hands of an enraged, violent attacker, George Zimmerman does what anyone who wishes to live would do, and he reaches for his concealed handgun, firing a single shot to neutralize the deadly force being wreaked upon him.

This represents the purest form of self-defense there is. It is exactly why people who believe in good over evil carry a gun to protect themselves from the well documented violence that plagues our country, in order to save our lives from a life threatening attack. Period.

Based on all evidence available to them, the professional law enforcement officers did not hold George Zimmerman on charges later that night. They saw it for what it was: cut and dried self-defense.

And so it was for a few weeks until the race-baiting industry saw an opportunity to further the racist careers of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the Black Panthers. President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder, et al, who then swept down on the Florida community refusing to admit that the 17-year-old dope smoking, racist gangsta wannabe Trayvon Martin was at all responsible for his bad decisions and standard modus operendi of always taking the violent route.

With an obvious racist chip on his shoulder, referencing the neighborhood watch guy as a “creepy ass cracker” to his fellow racist female friend who admitted under oath that that is how non-blacks are referred to normally in their circles, Trayvon had no reason not to attack, because it was the standard thug thing to do. See Chicago any day of the week.

With nearly 700 examples of this truism played out in Chicago in 2012 alone, no one can possibly dispute the recent surge in black racism increasing throughout Barack Obama?s presidency. To attempt to claim otherwise is a laughable lie.

The jury got it right, and non-racist America rejoices that there is still common sense, honesty and decency aware of identifying justice in this country. America also believes that the entire prosecutorial team should be ashamed of themselves and disbarred for ignoring the obvious and kowtowing to the pure racism that forced the politically correct lie that only black lives killed by non-blacks matter, which is why there are no headlines, no protests, no prosecutions and no Barak Obama or Eric Holder meddling in the nonstop black-on-black slaughter in their gun-free zone of Chicago.

Martin Luther King Jr. is rolling over in his grave that he sacrificed his life for the cause of judging people by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin, as so many of his own race carry in in self-destructive behavior while professional race mongers blame everything on racism.

It is painful and heartbreaking to say and write this, but horrifically it is true. Blacks kill more blacks in a weekend in Chicago than the evil, vile Ku Klux Klan idiots did in 50 years. Truly earth shattering insane. And not a peep from Obama or Holder. Tragic.

The only racism on that night was perpetrated by Trayvon Martin, and everybody knows it.

Here’s the lesson from all this, America: Teach your children to not attack people for no good reason whatsoever. Conduct yourself in a responsible, civil manner, and everything will be just fine. Try to kill someone and that someone just may be exercising his or her Second Amendment rights and you could get shot. It's called self-defense, and it is the oldest, strongest and most righteous instinct and God-given
right known to man.

Account Deleted

So you won the Golden Gloves by lying on the mat and having the opponent slam your head and beat the snot out of you? Just asking, Paul.

Paul Emery

No. I used the ol Jack Dempsey ploy of taking the jab to land the left hook to the gut followed by an overhand right to the chin. The great Archie Moore used to let his opponent hit him to build up his confidence so he could take advantage of obvious openings.

Account Deleted

That's wonderful, Paul. I'm sure that Zimmerman lay down on the sidewalk to let his opponent start wailing on him so as to build up his confidence in order for George to get an opening so that he could then pull out his gun and shoot him. That's probably what happened.

fish

No. I used the ol Jack Dempsey ploy of taking the jab to land the left hook to the gut followed by an overhand right to the chin. The great Archie Moore used to let his opponent hit him to build up his confidence so he could take advantage of obvious openings.

Probably would have been easier to use a gun Paul.

George Rebane

And here I thought all you fine intellects would take apart the societal halo effect that this trial is wreaking upon the nation, instead of retrying Zimmerman one more time here on RR. Silly me.

L

Yeah, Paul. Trayvon felt he had been "dissed" by some "cracka" following him and decided to teach George a lesson from his own background.

Seriously, do any of the usual suspects here actually think a man with a gun would start a fistfight with a taller, younger black youth. No, you would keep a distance and if approached, pull the gun and say "put up your hands, the cops will be here in a minute."

Any other questions, fools?

Joe Koyote

the bottom line here is that there were no witnesses... no one who actually saw what happened.. especially anyone in here.. so any speculation as to who was defending themselves from whom, is just that. speculation. One person's word against another... only one of them is dead.. so we never got to hear their version of the events, and they are not here to defend the slander.. the perfect target.. So really this discussion is about guns and gun usage.. and falls directly along partisan lines.. like everything else... the truth be damned. Who cares who threatened who and in what order..the right to carry a concealed weapon and randomly use it as the carrier sees fit was upheld.. A victory for the right. guns don't kill people, people do.

Michael Anderson

Yeah, I'm not much interested in the "societal halo effect" in this discussion/rant-fest because I think it mostly doesn't exist outside of the echo chambers of the MSM.

Zimmerman and Martin are two people who for a variety of reasons are stunted human beings. Martin's stunting led to his demise (which would probably have happened eventually, even w/o Zimmerman--interesting Ted Nugent cite on Earl's blog by Steve Enos); Zimmerman's stunting is a bit more complex, ego-driven and pathetic.

George, I'm a bit surprised that you are playing into all the sound and fury. How about an article instead on stupid aircraft carriers and how if we got rid of them we could probably provide free health care to every human being on the entire planet?
http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the-carriers-will-die/

George Rebane

MichaelA 918pm - I'm sorry Michael, but you seem to have missed quite a bit of news about the societal halo effect. It exists very much outside the "echo chambers of the MSM". There are people demonstrating in the streets, smashing store windows, NAACP petitioning the DOJ to indict Zimmerman on criminal civil rights charges, Holder making speeches about 'stand your ground', and the President honoring Martin. Quite a bit is happening that is the real outcome of the trial. Sorry you have missed it.

Michael Anderson

I didn't miss it, I ignored it. It was just another example of Idiot America, ginning up stupidity on as many avenues as possible. But actually not very much stupid once the final harvest was brought in...seriously, a few broken windows in Oakland? Hardly blood running in the streets. And the NAACP/Holder/Obama baloney will be yesterday's lettuce pretty much by tomorrow.

George, you need to get out more. My prescription for you would be more baseball, less Fox News. There's an American Legion tournament starting up next week at NU, with some big boys wielding some heavy bats. No windows (or Windows) involved whatsoever. Plus, sunshine!

Bill Tozer

Interesting that the "Stand Your Ground" law was not used by the defense. Not necessary. If Zimmerman thought within himself that great bodily injury to himself was about to happen (or happening), then that's all she wrote. Simple self defense.

Despite what all the pundits say, all we are left is Zimmerman's story. No witnesses, just people who heard bits and pieces in the dark and a guy who saw part of the struggle, but he really could not make out features. So, its Zimmerman's word and that is all we got. The defense got the gun expert to say that Martin's wounds were consistent with somebody on top. The defense showed Zimmerman's bloody skull pics at every opportunity.

There won't be triple jeopardy. For the Feds to prosecute on the grounds of Martin's civil rights, they must prove that a hate crime or radical motive was the key factor. The FBI has spent months upon months interviewing anybody and everybody that has known Zimmerman and no one is saying that he has any record or history of being a racist. His record on that is clean as a whistle. And if the full force of the United States Justice Department can't find a shred of evidence that Zimmerman has a racist history, then that's all she wrote again.

About the only racial slurs and racism I heard was coming from the Main Stream Media. Calling Zimmerman a half Hispanic is pretty low. Surprised the Hispanic community is not upset that Zimmerman referred to as half white or half Latino. Half?? Its ok for the President or anybody to call himself half this or half that, but not for outsiders. Don't call my piece of junk car a piece of junk.

Guess Zimmerman is not really a Latino. Not really. Just sort of a mixed race dude, but he is really white. Shame on the press.

fish

Guess Zimmerman is not really a Latino. Not really. Just sort of a mixed race dude, but he is really white. Shame on the press.

Bill...under the current standard rule set of government and media manipulation (latest revision 2011.....oddly enough it's version release is synchronized with the release of the NFPA codes....Hmmmm) Zimmerman gets to be a Hispanic if, and only if he is injured or killed by someone clearly of European descent (any European will do...German is the standard however). Now, if the individual interacting with Zimmerman happens to be gay (homosexual for the more reactionary in our audience) there is a whole list of potential situational modifiers and exculpatory examples that need be be examined. Please consult your Desktop Book for Proper Grievance Regulation, volume IV, Chapter 6 - How to Properly Categorize the Participants section 4, item (b) Hispanic - When and Where, white and or gay and chapter 9 Jury Selection (I think you'll find the section on who exactly is ones "peer" both enlightening and entertaining), all relevant sections plus administrative and case law interpretations in appendices.

Additionally should you need further guidance upon who to properly focus your hate in the matter we have a hotline that you may call.....please refer to the 800 number in your handbook. That line is staffed 24 hours a day by trained personnel (ask for Eric or Al).

Now if he is attacked by a European woman there is another set of regulations to which we refer.......

Ben Emery

George,
So much to comment on here it is going to be hard.

The entire angle of your commentary is gleeful that a 17 year old who was doing nothing wrong was shot and killed by an overzealous volunteer want-a-be neighborhood watch. I don't think you really care one way or another about Martin or Zimmerman but are gleeful because those who question the tiered American justice system are usually liberal or progressive, which are very different.

Justice wasn't served but what we did get was better than most countries, Zimmerman got his day in court. Although our court/ justice system is very very flawed and tiered to favor the wealthy our judicial system is what makes our country great. It is kind of like democracy very flawed but the best governing system we have come up with to date.

fish

The entire angle of your commentary is gleeful that a 17 year old who was doing nothing wrong was shot and killed by an overzealous volunteer want-a-be neighborhood watch.

Paul you are nothing if not consistent!

Gregory

"a 17 year old who was doing nothing wrong was shot and killed by an overzealous volunteer want-a-be neighborhood watch"

Fish, that was Ben, not Paul.

Ben, I taught my son to understand it is wrong to beat people up. Martin was committing a felony assault and battery at the time he was shot; that isn't "doing nothing wrong". And while Zimmerman was arguably an overzealous wannabe cop, the jury believed that Martin started the fight, which, until the gun was deployed, was pretty one sided.

It should also again be noted that Martin was under suspension from his high school for possessing a burglary tool (a big screwdriver) and a bunch of jewelry he claimed to be holding for a friend he wouldn't divulge. The jewelry was stolen from a residence near his high school.

Todd Juvinall

It is obvious from the comments of the Trayvon supporters that facts do not mean anything. That is a scary thing in this land of laws. People rioting after a verdict shows me there is no way to make sense of the rioters since emotion is their mechanism to deal with a loss. Watts and South Central are a good example. Our country has become a prodoner of 10% of our population. Their actions are undermining what America is all about.

fish

You are correct Greg.....I sometimes confuse my Emerys.

Apologies to the board.

Ben Emery

George, part II

The verdict given was largely due to our good friends ALEC law, Stand Your Ground (SYG). The jury instructions were very different from a decade ago which most likely would have led to the conviction of 2nd degree murder. Here are what would have been the jury instructions pre-SYG. The difference between the two laws and jury instructions is Zimmerman never has to retreat or try to avoid the conflict. It is that simple.

"If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent
the commission of a forcible felony."
http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2013/07/12/jury_instructions_1.pdf

Here is what would have been read to the jury prior to the SYG law being passed.

“The defendant cannot justify the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless he used every reasonable means within his power and consistent with his own safety to avoid the danger before resorting to that force.

The fact that the defendant was wrongfully attacked cannot justify his use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm if by retreating he could have avoided the need to use that force. “

fish

Perfectly OK then if Martin was checking out homes to potentially burgle in the future and that his being observed during this activity upset him to the point that he felt he had to return and assault a person trying to prevent criminal activities in his neighborhood.

Good to see you are so "community minded".

Ben Emery

George, part III

In parts I and II I have showing that the law doesn't actually equate to justice. Yes with the changing of the law and the case brought against him he was found not guilty, this is true.

Here is what the governor who signed Stand Your Ground (SYG) into law had to say last year when asked about Trayvon Martin (17) case.

"Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.” Jeb Bush

I have read that SYG law is 11 times more likely to justify white on black homicides. I have also read that in FL SYG has never successfully been used by a person of color over a white victim.

SYG states have twice the justifiable homicides than do non SYG states.

Last year alone over hundred unarmed civilians were killed in extra judicial killings.

Sean

maybe we should kill this guy for giving the finger as well

http://www.miqel.com/images_1/random_image/r1/george-bush_finger-flip-off.jpg

Gregory

"I have read that SYG law is 11 times more likely to justify white on black homicides."

Ben, that would be completely random and color blind if there are many more black on white assaults than vice versa, and there are.

Ben Emery

George, part IV

If we are going to look into criminal history lets take a look at criminal records.

-Trayvon Martin had no criminal record

-George Zimmerman whose father is a retired judge and would most likely get preferential treatment.

Some context is found with these back stories
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-lost-job-party-security-guard-aggressive-ex-co-worker-article-1.1053223

In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer." Both these felonies are considered third-degree. Due to his desperate attempts, the charges were reduced to "resisting officer without violence" and then the only remaining charge was also completely waived off when he entered an alcohol education program.

In the same year (2005), Zimmerman's ex-fiance, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order, alleging domestic violence. In retaliation, Zimmerman filed for a retraining order against Zuazo and both these claims were resolved with both restraining orders granted.

Russ Steele

According to some sound clips from an interview with Trayvon's girl friend on CNN, Trayvon was going to give the "creeper cracker" some WhipAss, later defined as just beating up, but not killing the victim. According the the young lady it was Zimmerman's fault that he did not understand that among her generation WhipAss was just a beating not a killing. Trayvon was not going kill Zimmerman only giving him some WhipAss. Gee if Zimmerman had only know, he could have just laid back and taken it, he was in no danger of being killed, just maimed or disfigured. It appears that Trayvon was the aggressor according to the girl friend. What would you do if being give some WhipAss?

Gregory

"The defendant cannot justify the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless he used every reasonable means within his power and consistent with his own safety to avoid the danger before resorting to that force."

Zimmerman was trying to flee before he pulled his gun and shot Martin, but Martin was sitting on him, wailing away with fists and smashing his head against the concrete walkway.

Sorry, Ben, that jury instruction wouldn't have made a difference this time, and just because Zimmerman could have avoided all of this by staying in bed that day doesn't mean he should have been required to do so. It's as legal for Zimmerman or anyone else for that matter, official "neighborhood watch" or anyone else, to follow someone who they think looks suspicious; had Martin just said "f*** off, cracka" and walked on he'd have a chance to still be alive and kicking.

Russ Steele

After being give some WhipAss by Trayvon, Zimmerman was mugged by the DOJ:

HOW DID THE TRAYVON MARTIN CASE BECOME A NATIONAL MEDIA SENSATION? With help from the Justice Department. “Through their requests for documents from local, state and federal authorities, Judicial Watch researchers were able to obtain hundreds of documents and emails pertaining to the case. This information helped Judicial Watch prove that a little-known unit of the Department of Justice (DOJ), the Community Relations Service (CRS), was deployed to Sanford following the Trayvon Martin shooting to help organize and manage rallies and protests against George Zimmerman.”

Frankly, for the government to help organize and manage rallies and protests against an individual charged with a crime looks like a civil rights violation to me. I hope Zimmerman’s lawyers go ahead and sue, as they’ve indicated. The discovery process will be fascinating.

Gregory

"-Trayvon Martin had no criminal record"

Trayvon Martin was suspended from school twice in the preceding six months and at the time of the incident was freshly suspended for possession of stolen goods (valuables from a burglary of a home near his school, between his home and school) which his school district hid from police to make their own crime numbers look better.

Gregory

Russ, that's whupass, not Whip Ass.

George Rebane

BenE 921am - I don't know where you're going with your SYG arguments, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm not aware of any SYG law used to wantonly decoy and kill people. But I am aware of blatant injustice done against people (e.g. homeowners in their homes) when defending themselves against intruders without the benefit of SYG laws. As you may imagine from the Bastiat Triangle banner of RR, I am much in favor of SYG.

938am - apparently you are unaware of Martin's past re his criminal record side. I'm again not sure what the point of this comment is re the Martin trial. An explicit conclusion would be helpful.

Sean 937am - I take it from this pithy comparison that you believe Martin was killed for the pose in his photograph. Interesting conclusion. (I wonder if your employer knows you reason like that.)

Ben Emery

George, part V

This is the one everyone has been waiting for. First lets get this out into the open not all racist beliefs are malicious. In my opinion a vast majority of racism is A-moral. Just stereo types that can either be a positive or a negative. But then we get into the realm of power, control, and money. This is where racism gets very ugly. This is where most individuals who believe the propaganda of fear of the other comes into play.

To try and compare same ethnicity/ race crimes with white against people of color is a way to justify racist beliefs. You guys really don't get it. Racism is what our nation was built on and it is woven into just about every fabric of our laws and culture. The laws in our nation at the state and federal levels have been passed and signed into law with white majorities 100% of the time from day one. I cannot think of single time, state, or federal government that didn't fit into a white majority. Intentional or not our laws are inherently based in white perspective. A perfect example of this is not a color of skin but gender. The statement above could also be applied to male and female as well. To this day women earn 75% to what men earn for the same qualifications and same work. Not because all men are misogynistic pigs but as men we cannot fully comprehend the perspective of a women and vice versa.

Ben Emery

Oops I forgot to put this in above.

Zimmerman had made dozens of 911 calls as a self appointed neighborhood watch. As far as I can tell 100% of those who were suspects in his opinion were black.

George Rebane

BenE 1016am - Conclusion? And was not Zimmerman a member of an organized neighborhood watch as opposed one "self appointed"?

Ben Emery

Greg,
To your comments
18 July 2013 at 09:48 AM
18 July 2013 at 09:53 AM

Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to, that is all we need to know. Criminal records are criminal records Martin had never been convicted of any crime. Just as Zimmerman has not been convicted of murder and cannot be used against him as a criminal offense.

Martin was suspended from school for graffiti and empty plastic bag that is alleged to have contained marijuana but had no Juvenile Offender Record.

Ben Emery

George, 18 July 2013 at 10:39 AM
Not according to National Sheriffs Associations USA on Watch- Neighborhood Watch.

George Zimmerman not a member of recognized neighborhood watch organization
http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/

"“In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket,” Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens’ Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. “Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon.”

Despite this, Zimmerman admitted that he had fired a weapon on the night of the incident. In addition, the non-emergency call Zimmerman placed on February 26 before the shooting revealed he had been pursuing Martin by car before accosting the youth on foot — all direct violations of Neighborhood Watch policies."

I understand Zimmerman makes the claim he wasn't on duty so that would allow the carry of the concealed weapon but the question is- is there an actually organization that has members, a board of directors, codes of conduct, trainings ect.. in place or is it just something George Zimmerman made up himself the community didn't really see the harm so they let him do it?

Here is USA on Watch- Neighborhood Watch statement

"USAonWatch does not advocate watch members taking any action when observing suspicious activity in their neighborhood. Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” and should report their observations of suspicious activities to their local law enforcement. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action; citizens should never try to take action on those observations. USAonWatch encourages all watch groups to register with our national database where multiple resources are made available to assist in the training and maintaining of Neighborhood Watch groups and its members."

fish

Emery I hope you aren't allowed outside without a minder.

Gregory

"Zimmerman pursued Martin after being told not to, that is all we need to know."

That didn't happen, Ben. He was told by a dispatcher that they didn't need him to follow the guy.

"Ben, you don't need to shovel the horse manure right now" doesn't mean "Ben, *don't* shovel" the stuff now unless it's your boss and they are given to understatement. Guess what? The dispatcher wasn't Zimmerman's boss.

Then there's the fact that the judge barred evidence the defense wanted to introduce including Martin's suspensions, tattoos and history of fighting. Probably rightly so for a criminal trial, but if there's a civil trial brought against Zimmerman expect Martin's halo to tarnish.

At the time of the incident Martin was apparently was under suspension for an empty drug baggie. the previous suspension a couple of months earlier was for graffiti; it was a search for the marker a video camera caught him using on a school door that led to the jewelry and the big screwdriver believed to be a burglary tool. They didn't call the cops to investigate and instead, just swept it under the rug.

I guess they didn't want the bad press of a home near the school being burglarized by a student.

Gregory

A link:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

Russ Steele

Ben Emory@10:14AM

Here is some insight from the Legal Insurrection the pursue issue:

There are many lessons to be learned from the media miscoverage of the George Zimmerman shooting of Trayvon Martin.

We’ve dealt repeatedly with the false “hoodie” and racial narratives, the ludicrous audio and video analyses, and the misunderstanding of the role Stand Your Ground played [actually, did not play] in the case.

We’ve seen post-trial articles about how the prosecution failed to “humanize” Trayvon, without addressing that the prosecution deliberately didn’t go there because it would have brought into evidence Trayvon’s history of fighting, drug use and illegal weapons possession. Rachel Jeantel’s post-trial interview on CNN also raised the possibility that the fight was started by Trayvon out of homophobic fear that Zimmerman was a sexual predator.

In this sea of media malpractice, one enduring fabrication lives on despite conclusive trial testimony, the concept that Zimmerman was ordered, instructed, or told not to get out of his car by the 911 operator.

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There is a second and implicit part of the myth, namely that Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin (in addition to being told not to get out of his car).  Jonathan Capehart, in the column noted above, correctly debunked that myth, Five myths about the killing of Trayvon Martin:

“Are you following him?” the operator for the Sanford police’s non-emergency line asks Zimmerman. “Yeah,” he says. The dispatcher on the phone tells him: “We don’t need you to do that.”

Who the aggressor was that fateful night is the central — and most unanswerable — question of the case. Those who fault Zimmerman have latched on to this back-and-forth with Sean Noffke, the operator, as proof that Zimmerman defied a direct police order.

Not so. Noffke testified on the first day of the jury trial that it is dispatchers’ policy not to give orders to callers. “We’re directly liable if we give a direct order,” he explained. “We always try to give general basic . . . not commands, just suggestions.” So, “We don’t need you to do that” is different than a more direct “Don’t do that.”

Under cross-examination, Noffke added more context to his “suggestion” when asked whether his requests for updates on what Martin was doing encouraged Zimmerman to follow the unarmed 17-year-old. “It’s best to avoid any kind of confrontation, to just get away from the situation,” Noffke said.

If the media refuses to correct the obvious factual inaccuracy that Zimmerman was told not to get out of his car, it seems hopeless to get the media to correct this other part of the myth.  Capehart made a good attempt at it, as have others, to no avail..

The myth will survive because it is part of the background narrative, an assumption upon which arguments implicitly rest.

Ben, you are just promoting a myth promoted by the MSM, it would be nice if you did some of your own thinking.

Ben Emery

Greg,
Dispatcher- Are You Following Him?

Zimmerman- Yeah

Dispatcher- OK, We Don't Need You To Do That

George Zimmerman continued to follow him. Prior to Stand Your Ground he couldn't have used self defense because he pursued Martin but after Stand Your Ground he legally can follow cause a fight and then use self defense as justification for deadly force. There is no arguing these facts but I guess once again you know more than a sitting Florida State Senator, former Florida prosecutor who ran for Florida Attorney General. This doesn't mean he would have been found guilty but it means he couldn't have used self defense.

Stand Your Ground and the Zimmerman Verdict
http://www.dangelber.com/blog/view_blog.php?ID=268

George Rebane

BenE 1124am - Thanks for the link Ben, it sure makes the case for SYG being enacted into law in Florida and other states. Prior to SYG, if you made the wrong decision (or didn't see it, or think of it, or ...) and didn't avail yourself to a possible escape, then the post hoc argument would have been that if you found yourself being beaten senseless (or worse), you would have had no subsequent justification to defend yourself through the use of force that would have caused your assailant ANY bodily harm. The law then would have prescribed your fate to the tender mercies of the assailant who was already demonstrating that he had none.

That argument is repulsive to any free man, and most certainly still repulsive to most Americans today (including progressives AFTER they find themselves so enmeshed).

Ben Emery

Greg,
Yep a magic marker on a school door and an empty baggie is a sure sign of a violent person who needs to be feared. Lets not forget the speculation of a screwdriver. None of them were brought to a criminal court probably because these are pretty typical teenage offenses that are not great but nothing all that bad.

On the other hand George Zimmerman has a criminal record and violent past that has been documented wasn't allowed to be used. Domestic violence and charged with resisting police with violence but bargained it down to lesser charges if he went to alcohol treatment program.

Here is the thing I'm not saying the verdict was necessarily wrong in accordance to the law but I am saying the law is seriously flawed to allow such a injustice to take place.

A 17 year old who had been playing video games waiting for the NBA all star game to start just minutes before with his little step-brother went to the store unarmed to buy some candy, he never made it back home because of ingrained prejudices/ racism of a vigilante which led to a forced confrontation that didn't need to take place.

Lets say that 17 year old was either one of your children or my own with the exact same scenario that led the confrontation. Has justice been served in your opinion?

Ben Emery

Russ,
" Noffke testified on the first day of the jury trial that it is dispatchers’ policy not to give orders to callers. “We’re directly liable if we give a direct order,” he explained. “We always try to give general basic . . . not commands, just suggestions.” So, “We don’t need you to do that” is different than a more direct “Don’t do that.” "

It is also the policy of National Sheriffs Associations Neighborhood Watch programs and virtually all other responsible like organizations not pursue suspects.

"USAonWatch does not advocate watch members taking any action when observing suspicious activity in their neighborhood. Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” and should report their observations of suspicious activities to their local law enforcement. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action; citizens should never try to take action on those observations. USAonWatch encourages all watch groups to register with our national database where multiple resources are made available to assist in the training and maintaining of Neighborhood Watch groups and its members."

Ben Emery

“… honor the memory of Treyvon Martin.”

"At the age of 9, he pulled me out of a fire, went back in the house, got the phone, came back out, called 911. He saved my life." Tracy Martin

George Rebane

I expected crickets to respond to my 1142am, and am not disappointed. When opposing SYG becomes a ludicrous argument, it's time to move on to something else. Something like factors which were deemed irrelevant to the case as interpreted under Florida law. And we all must admit that justice and beauty share certain attributes.

fish

......of ingrained prejudices/ racism of a vigilante which led to a forced confrontation that didn't need to take place.

Why do you hate Jews of Peruvian descent Ben? Why?

fish

Oh oh oh.....Here I was sure you were the crazy older brother of the other Emery.....wow....just a baby! And with political aspirations too.....!

Shit Ben, I hate contributing to politicians but I'm going to have to send McClintock money during the next election cycle to help keep your Peruvian Hate/Anti Semitism out of congress.

George Rebane

It appears that BB4 has been airing on NCTV for a couple of weeks. The remaining schedule is an update to the BB4 post. No word yet about on line availability.

Gregory

"We Don't Need You To Do That"

That isn't a command, Ben. He was free to do it, or not and I'd guess it is a CYA by the police so it is clear any following is not being done at the request of the police.

Maybe you didn't notice, but Zimmerman *WAS* just observing.

According to TIME,
"Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow Martin on foot, though a dispatcher told him that was not necessary. After that, police say it is unclear what exactly happened, but Zimmerman said he no longer saw Martin and was returning back to the vehicle when the teen approached him and they exchanged words. Martin, he said, then struck him, knocked him down and began banging his head on the ground."

Nothing Zimmerman did before he was attacked, and given Z's status as a 5'7" 200# pudgeball, I don't see him attacking a 5'11" 160lb athlete.

"Lets not forget the speculation of a screwdriver." A big ass screwdriver and a backpack with jewelry the kid wouldn't explain. The jewelry *was* from a burglary in the neighborhood and it wasn't returned to it's owners until the springtime.

Then there was the photos "on Martin's phone that included pictures of a pile of jewelry on a bed, underage nude females, marijuana plants and a hand holding a semi-automatic pistol" that was withheld from the defense until a whistleblower in the prosecutor's office alerted others to their existence.

Ben, your illogic is showing. The kid was no angel and would have been arrested for possession of stolen property at a minimum if the school hadn't swept it under the rug.

Ben Emery

Sorry Greg,
Your desire to make sure this kid is drug through the mud is showing. Zimmerman is to blame for a teenagers death for no particular good reason. That is the point and these f'ed up laws have now made what happened legal.

Ben Emery

Fish,
You might want to send it Heidi Hall some money since McClintock is now trying to steal the Merced River water rights in his new district.

Ben Emery

George,
Your 18 July 2013 at 11:42 AM speaks for itself. You are an authoritarian bent on making sure "good law abiding whites" citizens have the ability to fight back when the numbers drops below 50% for the first time in US history. The only problem the laws are so skewed and unjust in so many cases it is equivalent to staying silent when injustices are taking place.

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.” Bishop Desmond Tutu

George Rebane

BenE 609pm - Again you err grossly. I am anything but silent on this matter as my post and your presence here attest. I celebrate Zimmerman's acquittal.

fish

You might want to send it Heidi Hall some money since McClintock is now trying to steal the Merced River water rights in his new district.

Okay then.....good to know!

fish

You are an authoritarian bent on making sure "good law abiding whites" citizens have the ability to fight back when the numbers drops below 50% for the first time in US history.

George why do suffer this fool?

fish

You are an authoritarian bent on making sure "good law abiding whites" citizens have the ability to fight back when the numbers drops below 50% for the first time in US history.

Planning a race war are we then? That won't look good on the campaign literature.

Ben Emery

George,
I know you are not silent on the issue. It was more meant for myself and those who oppose such laws.

Fish,
Your just a child trapped in an adults body, I am sorry for your constant struggle.

Todd Juvinall

This was sent to me today and this video of Wild Bill discussing liberals fits BenE to a T.

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/FeTCkoXslsE

Steve Enos

Ben posts to Greg... "Your desire to make sure this kid is drug through the mud is showing".

Greg provided what are called facts regarding Martin’s past. Many of these facts were withheld from the defense until a whistleblower in the prosecutor's office alerted others and they were then disclosed.

It seems dandy to call Zimmerman all kinds of things and post about his past, but providing the facts regarding Martin's past is dragging him through the mud? Really?

The point is simple; Martin's past and Zimmerman’s past are part of this story.

Michael Anderson

Dear Conservatarians,
Fear is a poison. It kills mammals, just like difethialone. If you lay fear traps around the baseboards, you will kill a lot of mammals. And of course, that is its designed intent.

So gents, keep ginning up the fear game/poison. Have a lot of fun, and you are doing great. Reap your harvest of fear death, knowing that's what you brung to the party.

What I did instead, I brung me a slim Louisville to the party, heavily wrapped with surgical gauze at the handle, to hit some fungoes to my outfielders. They enjoyed it immensely.

Fear vs. Fungoes. You choose.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-arms-race-at-home.html?hp&_r=0

Michael Anderson

Come in Todd, do you read me, over?

Word on the street is that you are also a "registered Democrat Muslin."

Best you lay low until you get the 'all clear.' That means Humpty Dumpty is off limits for now.

Do you copy, over?

Bill Tozer

A very crucial yet overlooked piece to this puzzle is staring you'll right in the face. Remember Harvey Milk and Mr. White? Turn the page and remember Martin and Zimmerman and Skittles. That's right. It was Skittles that started this whole episode. Had not Martin indulged in Skittles which caused him to do some ass whoppin' on a smaller dude, then this whole tragic chapter in a long book may have never happened. Since Twinkies were not available at the time, Skittles was a suitable substitute.

The Dollar Tree has Skittles for a buck. I thought of buying a box the other day since my lips have never touched Skittles of Airheads, but wisdom prevailed. Now would exactly the wrong time to sit in jail doing the Twinkie Defense.

Bill Tozer

Michael Anderson | 18 July 2013 at 07:40 PM: Mr Anderson I presume. Fear is indeed an evil taskmaster who robs one of piece of mind, contentment, and can ruin a perfectly good woody.

I know two things for sure.
1) I have been in the backseat of a police car and have been in the front seat of a police car. Believe you me, the front seat is better.

2) I fear dead men a lot less than I fear live ones.

Michael Anderson

Seriously Tozer? Aligning Dan White with Treyvon Martin?

I lived in SF when JJ & DW performed their nasty business. It was not a good time.

Your alignment is complete ridiculous and offensive. You owe Kenneth (the owner of Dan Rather's frequency) a deep apology.

http://foundsf.org/index.php?title=Kool-Aid_%26_Twinkies

Michael Anderson

BTW George, dealing with the 3rd grade coding skills of the Typepad team continues to rankle.

Are we sure that Typepad and Asiana Airlines are not in cahoots in some way? Same dysfunction, same negative results.

The only difference is that I cannot find any videos on YouTube of Typepad representatives stabbing themselves in the heart and removing their flawed DNA from the planet.

Just a casual observation...

Michael Anderson


http://foundsf.org/index.php?title=Kool-Aid_%26_Twinkies

Bill Tozer

I owe a lot of people a deep deep, yes, so deeeeeep apology, but not tonight or tomorrow night. Hey Kenneth, who ever you are, stay away from Juicy Fruits. Might make you more nervous than a ho in church.

Mr Anderson, look at the common denominators for a second. As Mr. Gregory points out, correlation does not equate to causation, or something to that effect. Yet, there are some common denominators that preceded Dan White and young Martin's infamous demises. Food for thought as they say.

fish

Fish,

Your just a child trapped in an adults body, I am sorry for your constant struggle.

You wouldn't be the first to think that....... you probably won't be the last. Now.....why don't you get back to "quoting deep thoughts of others" (perhaps something from Robert Paul Wolff today) and your constant moral preening.

After all being a congressman is far easier than sustainable farming.

You have a goodn.

George Rebane

MichaelA 1004am - Agreed, and sincere apologies for all the commenters for having to put up with such incompetence. I am in constant communication with them, sending them copies of the emails consigned to spam. But apparently in the 3rd grade they didn't get to spam filtering yet.

I pulled out the comments from spam and deleted the duplicates. Thanks for your patience.

Ben Emery

Steve Enos,
We are talking about criminal offenses not hormone driven teenage behavior. Magic marker on a locker, thug. Empty bag that allegedly had marijuana in it, out of control. A screw driver that could have been used to steal jewelry or to tighten a screw, we just report you decide.

Those were the big offenses of Trayvon Martin, which none of them had to do with his murder. He didn't draw on Zimmerman and pot would have made him more mellow and no screwdriver was found at the scene. He paid for the skittles and drink at 7/11 and the teller didn't seem to think he was suspicious.

On the other hand we have Zimmerman with a documented criminal history of violence, which wasn't brought up during the trial either. Zimmerman instigated a fight by following Martin for doing nothing but being a black teenager and shot killed a 17 year old who did nothing but go to the store to buy some candy.

There is a big difference between the two history's and how they would tie into the murder. Zimmerman had no worries because he had that "Creepy Cracker Assed" Stand Your Ground law that allows open season on people of color in the South.

Todd Juvinall

I have done a blog post on this as well and have been surprised at all the phone calls and Facebook contacts. I must say though there is a controversy and my own sister is on Trayvon's side. But my sis is an emotional woman.

Here is my link.

http://sierradragonsbreathe.blogspot.com/

I am in full agreement with Mr. Enos on this topic, he has it nailed tight.

Mr. Michael Anderson though is as usual dreaming of his trip to the perversion of Burning Man and is making no sense. His world of white guilt is foreign to me so I would suggest some psychological assistance from one of those psychologists of Nevada City. Maybe a woman psychologist since he seems unable to deal with we males on topics of things like "self defense" or "stand your ground". Maybe he could do a joint counseling session with Ben Emery?

So we see the daily angst of this issue on the radio and TV but why? The jury has spoken and I thought that was what we Americans all agreed was the requirement in our system. Yet the left is trucking on with pressure to the AG and even boycotting Florida! Steve Wonder won't play in any state that has a SYG law so after his bank account shrinks to zero, maybe he will wise up.

The issues of the day seem to be driven by the MSM desire to see Zimmerman hang and if this is pursued I believe there will be blood in the streets as the Bloods and the Crips shoot it out. Now we can see what happens when liberals like MichaelA and BenE get ahold of a city and have the reins of governance. Detroit is toast and has been run into the ground by liberals. RoboCop is needed now to stop the killings, mostly black on black, in that once great city.I suggest MichaelA and BenE load up the 5x8 rental with their beloved possessions and travel to Detroit. They could then run for council, win and then fix the place. Adios you two!! LOL!!

George Rebane

re BenE's 815am - "There is a big difference between the two history's(sic) and how they would tie into the murder. Zimmerman had no worries because he had that "Creepy Cracker Assed" Stand Your Ground law that allows open season on people of color in the South."

Wow! Determining guilt or innocence in America has not involved the histories of the people involved, but only the facts material to the alleged criminal act. Histories enter into the sentencing phase after an individual has been found guilty.

And what evidence corroborates that SYG has given rise to "an open season on people of color in the South"?

Michael Anderson

Todd, one too many waffles this morning? What gives?

For the record, as I've explained before Todd but I guess your comprehension skills are weak, I believe that Martin should have just kept walking and not challenged Zimmerman, and Zimmerman also should have minded his own business and just went home. Because these two idiots BOTH made bad decisions, one is dead and the other is going to have a messed up life for a while.

The real problem is all the attention that is being paid to this unimportant incident. Nothing to see here, move on already. Sheesh.

Ben Emery

George, 19 July 2013 at 08:32 AM
"And what evidence corroborates that SYG has given rise to "an open season on people of color in the South"?"

This case does. A man instigates a confrontation with a 17 year old by following/ stalking him and then when the man is getting his ass kicked by the 17 year old who he outweighed by 50- 70lbs the need to use deadly force. What this case has shown in states that have SYG law is you can do anything to get someone to react in a way that would allow you to perceive a threat and this threat would justify deadly force.

Steve Enos

re BenE's 815am - "There is a big difference between the two history's(sic) and how they would tie into the murder”.

First... there was no murder. Martin was not murdered. The facts and the jury made that clear. Say murder all you want, but there was no murder.

Second... Zimmerman did nothing illegal that night, he broke no laws. On the other hand as the facts, evidence, trial and jury showed it was Martin that attacked Zimmerman, Martin broke the law, not Zimmerman.

Third... "stand your ground" was not part of this incident.

Fourth... it's clearly useless to discuss this with Ben.

Ben Emery

George,

"Wow! Determining guilt or innocence in America has not involved the histories of the people involved, but only the facts material to the alleged criminal act. Histories enter into the sentencing phase after an individual has been found guilty."

Usually criminal records and history are used. Since Martin did not have a criminal offense record there was nothing to use but as I have posted Zimmerman did have a criminal record and violence was at the heart of it.

I don't think writing out "WTF" on a locker is something that could really be used to justify murder or a pattern of violent threatening behavior.

Ben Emery

Todd,
As much as I hate addressing you, this statement

"I must say though there is a controversy and my own sister is on Trayvon's side. But my sis is an emotional woman."

is as misogynistic as you can get. You're a pig trying to compensate for a whole lot of shortcomings.

Ben Emery

Steve, 19 July 2013 at 10:34 AM

Your wrong on three of your points. I take it you have not followed this thread because my opposition to this verdict has been it was probably correct according to the law. The laws need to be changed back to pre- Stand Your Ground (SYG). Your wrong about SYG not being used it changed the jury instructions, which is exactly why it was almost impossible to find Zimmerman guilty. I suggest you go back and read through the thread at the changing of the jury instructions. Your wrong that Martin broke the law. He felt threatened he retreated and was followed so he stood his ground. Your correct with your last point if you want to talk about the individuals not the actual laws that made this legal.

There is a topic I do not want to discuss with you on a public forum but I will leave it at this stalking individuals to try and catch them doing something wrong is asking for trouble and a violation of their privacy.

Steve Enos

As the facts showed... Martin attacked Zimmerman, not the other way around. Martin attacking Zimmerman was the crime.

Ben Emery

Steve,
Just to mix up a bit, Martin allegedly attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman made sure there was no other side of his story when he put the bullet through Martins heart.

Todd Juvinall

Ben Emery, 10:50 this morning. Your response is whu you are irrelevant to anything of value. But you do crack ,e up.

But hey BenE, you calling me a pig is too funny. Better to be a smart pig thean a worm like you.

Todd Juvinall

Steve Enos has all the facts right and I am in total agreement with his posts on this matter here. Now even he can see the lunacy of the Ben Emery. Sorry Steve, you will now be attacked for my comments. What a hoot!

Paul Emery

RE Michael Anderson 19 July 2013 at 09:12 AM

"BOTH made bad decisions, one is dead and the other is going to have a messed up life for a while."

Should be corrected to "one is dead the other will make millions off book, TV and movie deals" With a few lawsuits greasing the path. Tort reform? Not in this case on this forum.

Account Deleted

Here's one more on top of the hundreds of young black children that have been killed by stupid hood rats.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oakland-girl-slain-20130718,0,1559099.story?track=rss

8 years old. I have a daughter and that's what she looked like when she was 8. How do black parents explain this to their kids? Where's Obongo? Where's Sharpton? Where is the 'national outrage'?
Too busy ginning up hatred against law-abiding citizens and fermenting riots to be bothered with this.
Have a nice day!

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