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05 July 2013

Comments

Paul Emery

Gregory

Oh yeah an op ed piece from good ol Avik Roy. As Romney's adviser on health care it was likely his advise that the poor have health care, they can go to the Emergency Room.

Are you running out of ideas Gregory? Seems like you're at the bottom of the barrel on this one.

George Rebane

PaulE 1017am - We missed your comprehension and comment on the substance of Gregory's 1157pm citation disputing the audacious 45K annual deaths statistic. Why does it always revolve around the messenger?

Gregory

Me out of ideas? Paul, you're the one who had to go straight to the ol' standby when there is nothing else, the ad hominem, against both me and the Forbes writer.

Roy was accurately reporting on the New England Journal of Medicine report on the Oregon Experiment whose linked abstract is summarized as "This randomized, controlled study showed that Medicaid coverage generated no significant improvements in measured physical health outcomes..."

Todd Juvinall

Today's Union had an ad for Marijuana Anonymous. It has a website and phone number. The text in the ad states;

"Has smoking pot stopped being fun? You are not alone."

PaulE, if pot is so great, why is there a pot equivalent of AA?

Paul Emery

Because some people overindulge and, like with many things there are repercussions. Use Gov Christie as an example of an overeating problem. Check out over eaters anonymous for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overeaters_Anonymous

Paul Emery

To use that one study interpreted by a political adviser to Republican hopefuls hardly qualifies as a comprehensive definitive viewpoint as you subscribe. If I were to use an op ed by Robert Reich as a factual viewpoint on economics you would do the same thing.

Roy goes on to say:

"Let’s build a new health program for low-income Americans, one that pays primary care physicians $150 a month to see each patient, whether they are healthy or sick. That’s what so-called “concierge doctors” charge, and it would give Medicaid patients what they really need: first-class primary care physicians to manage their chronic cardiovascular and metabolic conditions. Then throw on top of that a $2,000-a-year catastrophic plan to protect the poor against financial ruin. The total annual cost of such a program would be $3,800 per person, 37 percent less than what Obamacare’s Medicaid expansion costs.


What is your view of this idea?

George

No word on whether you consider farm subsidies to be unconstitutional. Are you dodging this one?

Gregory

Why go to New Jersey for an example when Jeff Pelline is in Nevada City?

Gregory

Paul, I quoted the Oregon Experiment report directly. Why not respond to that, rather than pick something else to rant about?

The issue was whether there were 45000 excess deaths a year with limited Medicaid coverage. The answer is, by the Oregon Experiment, no.

Paul Emery

Gregory


Okay let me affirm that's what the study indicates according to the view expressed by Roy. The opinion however measured only " common health outcomes" The two boys I am referring to are not common health situations and would likely not be alive today without government assistance in the form of Medicare. How does that fit into your view? What is your opinion of Roy's ideas as posted above? 12 July 2013 at 12:03 PM

Gregory

Paul, the boys issue has been handled to my satisfaction. We're off on Ben's observation that there are 45000 a year who die because they don't have coverage like Medicaid. Why not stick with that, or maybe go back to your thinking it unreasonable for middle class parents to get some kind of insurance before having kids.

It's outlawed by Obamacare regulations, but catastrophic insurance used to be available, not expensive, and can help one stay middle class while taking responsibility for one's own expenses ahead of time.

Paul Emery

Gregory

There is little connection between Ben's observation and the Oregon study which only looked at common health information. It did not include situations like chronic, hereditary or genetic illnesses which, if unattended would lead to many early and preventable deaths. We are indeed talking about two different things

what Roy is referring to is that it is cheaper for the government to fund catastrophic insurance with one doctors visit rather than medicaid.

The simple notion that middle class parents get insurance before childbirth is dependent on availability for newborns. Do you know it that exists?

George Rebane

PaulE 1203pm - I've been on record here for years on farm subsidies. Don't recall your bringing up their constitutionality before. Most certainly federal farm subsidies are extra-constitutional in that the Constitution does not lay out that function for the federal government, but leaves such issues to be decided by the several states. And making the lions share of the farm bill include food stamps and other non-farm transfer payments is legislative legerdemain and corruption.

BTW, it is most amusing to see the debate on healthcare particulars go in never ending circles since no one has put down what is their measurable utility of a public health policy, one that would even allow parties to evaluate this policy vs that. It is the standard stand-off, well documented in these pages - issues activism based on anecdotal arguments that ignore economics, against a reasoned discussion of a generalized approach that takes into account economic constraints.

Gregory

Ben claimed 45000 deaths because people could not afford to see doctors. The Oregon Experiment picked a bunch of poor folk who couldn't afford to be given Medicaid, and those that got it had health outcomes the same as those that didn't. That's about as common as it gets.

If you want to know about newborn-only health insurance availability, why not look for it yourself, Paul? You've also ignored questions I asked you regarding the CF afflicted boys you keep coming back to. Family health insurance policies add newborns automatically.

Paul Emery

These children were abandoned and adopted.

So George, our local wealthy Congressman will get his dough but hungry families are out of luck.

Paul Emery

Gregory

Again, what is your opinion of Roy's ideas as posted above? 12 July 2013 at 12:03 PM

Paul Emery

George

In relation to your 12 July 2013 at 02:33 PM speel you must be appalled by this

"WASHINGTON -- The Republican-controlled North Carolina House pushed through anti-abortion legislation on Thursday, using as their vehicle a motorcycle safety bill that lawmakers had stealthily turned into a measure on abortion. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/11/north-carolina-motorcycle-abortion_n_3582006.html

I'm off to the worldfest I'll get back to this tomorrow

Gregory

Paul, no new questions will be answered until you explain why you went all the way to NJ to pick on their Gov when Pelline is right in your backyard?

Adopting special needs lids is an unusual case, the intimation is they knew, and so did the birth parents. Help with medical expenses wasn't part of the deal?

In any case, like I already said somewhere above, when you have kids who need medical care you can't afford, I've nothing against charity.

George Rebane

PaulE 318pm - well that comment is laughably below you. Because someone opposes hiding food stamp money in the farm bill, that individual wants to starve "hungry families" - my, how the liberal mind works.

From the Huffington Post - "The bill spends nearly $500 billion over its five-year life, or nearly $969 billion over 10 years. About 80 percent of the spending goes to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, commonly known as food stamps. The bill would cut $23 billion from current spending levels." Did you ever wonder why they don't call it the food stamp bill and hide farm subsidies in it? Crickets.

Yes, and the NC House is full of sleazebags for the same reason.

Ben Emery

Greg,
I cannot believe you are trying to make the argument that health insurance doesn't matter. I am not saying the study you found is false but to even pretend that not having access to medical care doesn't matter is ludicrous. Give you a personal story. My dad has perfect blood pressure, heart rate, cholesterol levels, blood tests, and always is rated in the top 1% for his age group. At the age of 75 he was diagnosed with Parkinsons. There is no way on earth my parents could afford the medications that are associated with the disease and there is no way in hell any private insurance company would have been covering a 75 year male. Another story in my family that I have told you about before, my daughter almost exactly 10 years ago fractured her skull, ruptured her intestines, and had a compound fracture in her back. Our insurance rates skyrocketed after that accident and we were stuck because no other insurance would insure somebody with those preexisting conditions.

Both of these absolute necessary medical issues were outside the control of a 75 year man who took very good care of himself and a 8 year old girl who was involved in a car accident.

Health Care should not be for profit and the same with health insurance. It is immoral and just flat out wrong.

Here is a link about the study that came up with the number 45,000.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

Ben Emery

Now that my blood is boiling let me tell you one more story about the lack of health insurance and how it directly led to the death of my friend at the age of 30.

My friend could have been on the cover of health magazine. He was a work out junky and a highly competitive racket ball player. He drank very modestly and didn't do any type of drugs. About 6 months prior to his death a bunch of my friends were playing basketball. He out of now where went down to one knee and said he thought he was having a heart attack. Everyone laughed and made some jokes but he wasn't laughing or getting off the ground. So a couple of my friends took him to the emergency room (republican heath care center). They came saying he was having a heart attack and the nurse interrupted and ask the question "insurance number" and in pain he said "I don't have any insurance". He was told to go sit down and they would get to him as soon as they could. He sat there for 6 hours watching person after person come through the door and getting helped before him. Remember they told them we thought he was having a heart attack. Now some of those people might have seemed more life and death but a heart attack is pretty life threatening. After 6 hours went by his chest pains subsided and they left. He went to chiropractor the next day and told him what happened. They adjusted him and told him what he could have experienced was a muscle pull of some sort. He felt ok but never the same. About 6 or 7 months later he started getting that same pain but no so strong so he scheduled a chiropractor appointment since it seemed to help last time and the Chiro office told him he really should go see a doctor. My friend promised them he would get an appointment after his adjustment. During the chiro session he went into full cardiac arrest and died on the way to the hospital. I was told by his family the autopsy found scare tissue or evidence of a previous heart attack.
If he would have had insurance that first visit to the emergency room I guarantee he would have been seen asap. I have friends and family members who are and have worked in emergency rooms and they agree with I just said.

Bill Tozer

Wow, this is mind bending. Farm bill and mind mending marijuana. ER and mind bending marijuana. Fat people in New Jersey and Nevada City and its all mind bending marijuana. Looks like those studies are correct. Mind bending marijuana causes psychosis. Acute psychosis.

Yes, mental health is covered in most insurance plans. Good thing for those that indulged in a wee bit too much mind bending marijuana for a wee bit too long for their own good. We ought to penalize the psychotic ones who smoked too much mind bending marijuana, just like we do tobacco partakers, and soon, we will penalize fat tubs of lard for over indulging in Big Macs and Doritos, along with those who say "Its not my fault! I was born that way."

Its for your own good. Mayor Bloomberg and Michele Obama say its for your own good. You just can't control yourself so we will do it for ya.

Ben, when Romney Care hit the Commonwealth, ER visits actually went up. Why? Cause you feel like crap and the doc can see you in 2 weeks. WTF? I feel sick and every since Romney Care kicked in I can't get a timely appointment with the doc. Screw it, I am going to ER. Besides, insurance will cover it. Maybe I can get a script to deal with the effects of too much mind bending marijuana and food stamps.

Full disclosure: I consume only food that is 100% soy free.

Ben Emery

Bill,
That is a doctor issue not a patient issue. We need way more general practitioners and way less plastic surgeons.

Paul Emery

re Posted by: Gregory | 12 July 2013 at 04:12 PM

I picked Christy to make my point because he's the most prominent porker and food abuser currently in the news. My point was that there are all kinds of substance abusers that need help and the ad referred to by Todd was a genuine appeal to those who may have a marijuana problem that help is available.

George, are you a supporter of food stamps or do you think there's a better way to supplement food for the needy or do they need any help at all.

Gregory writes: "When you have kids who need medical care you can't afford, I've nothing against charity."

That's very big of you Gregory.

By the way can you share with us your health insurance plan and how you got it?

Paul Emery

sp

Thats Christie

Ben Emery

Greg,

"When you have kids who need medical care you can't afford, I've nothing against charity."

I posted local fundraiser for a working nurse, mother of young children, and wife who has a cancerous tumor that needs to be removed from her brain. What do you think that bill is going to come to? My guess with lost wages, transportation, medication, procedures, follow up doctor appointments, ect it will be in the hundreds of thousands range. I don't think that type of money can be sustained by any amount of charity if we are talking about multiple people per year.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151530634363601&set=a.196176108600.125352.196170158600&type=1&theater

There is an organization in town the has an annual budget of around $500,000. That budget is met by hundreds into the thousands of small donations, dozens of fundraisers, grants, and over 20,000 volunteer ours. That is to help just over 50 people a night.

The medical bill of just one unfortunate young women will surpass that budget and you think it is feasible for charity to pick the tab. Or we all chip into the largest pool possibly to keep our individual costs down but our coverage high, it is called insurance.

Gregory

Paul, be honest, you picked Christy because he's a fat Republican, although many Republicans might disagree with that, and regarding my insurance, past or present, why do you want to know?

Ben, no, just having good insurance doesn't get you seen quickly at the ER; the last time I was there, with my present wife with a badly infected leg (a wasp sting that went bad, with 'flesh eating bacteria' being a term used by the ER doc), we waited a long time, partially due to a junkie who was moaning and saying all the right words to get a fix of something good.

ANY ER presented with a heart attack would bring them in first; we don't know what was said to the admitting nurse, so we don't know if it was your friend communicating poorly or an incompetent or malfeasant nurse or administrator. Was there a civil suit?

That said, being seen by an ER doctor does not mean you won't die in the next days or weeks of the cardiovascular disease you walked in with, which is the sort of thing the Oregon Experiment would account for.

George Rebane

PaulE 1149pm - I don't know what it takes to qualify for today's food stamps program. While I support a level of government (collective) financial assistance to individuals, I favor a comprehensive cash payment rather than particular amounts for food, healthcare, housing, ... . I want the individual to be responsible for spending the welfare money as he sees fit.

For government to determine your needs and allocate your transfer payments for you is more than demeaning in my eyes, it is also society's judgment on your mental condition. And here's one for you and yours - I feel that if you are incapable of 1) correctly allocating your monies (a mental task) to care for yourself, and 2) remain in a chronic situation in which you are under the care of others, then that should impact your franchise as a citizen in some significant manner. In short, a deficient mentality is seen to affect all of one's decisions, and not arbitrarily considered to be faulty in these domains but perfectly good in those domains.

Gregory

Regarding the word "charity", I include your fellow citizens picking up the tab via tax monies because the family of the injured or sick person can't and there's no insurer in the mix. However, money donated at the point of a gun (if you don't pay taxes, someone with a gun will eventually be involved in the collection)will come with strings and conditions: expect only evidence-based medicine that has some chance of a reasonable success to be available to you. A $100k treatment that would average only a few weeks of life extension with no reasonable hope of cure probably shouldn't be funded, nor should coffee enemas.

Ben Emery

Greg,
Not having any insurance general gets you a one way ticket to the back of the line. Different way of looking at the same situation.

What is it with you guys with using the analogy of being forced at the point of gun and paying into an infrastructure we all use?

We all pay into an insurance program just like medicare. What is so difficult about understanding "we all pay into"? The main problem with medicare it only covers the highest medical segment of the population. If we get healthy 40 year old and younger paying into it the program would be allowed to expand greatly and pay doctors going rates and the need for more nurses, doctors, and medical supplies and staff in general would explode. I have been paying into medicare and social security now for 30 years. Yes my first paycheck job ($2.85 an hour) was at the age of 13 on a golf course driving range, whether FICA was withdrawn I am not sure but assuming it was taken out of my miniscule paychecks. But I got access to the driving range, which allowed me to take the league championship with a four handicap my one and only year I played in high school.

George Rebane

re BenE's 1114am - I think you've again put your finger on a seminal difference between collectivists and all others. There is a big difference for us in submitting payment motivated by free will vs motivated by the avoidance of punishment. And that difference grows as we are forced to pay for things we inherently don't believe should be funded through collective force broadly applied.

The prisoner's argument that he's a free man, just because he didn't want to go beyond the barbed wire anyway, is specious.

Gregory

"Not having any insurance general gets you a one way ticket to the back of the line."

No Ben, at any well run ER, you are at the front of the line if you're having a heart attack, even if you're a charity case. My family, with insurance, has had major waits in ER's when obvious indigents with apparently more serious problems had the ER MD's attention and no, we didn't bitch about folks getting a free ride in front of us.

If we all died like doctors, we'd be spending less on medical care:
http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/08/06/how-doctors-die/

Paul Emery

George

RE: 13 July 2013 at 08:14 AM

What would be the process of determining a persons fitness to take care of themselves in the manner you outline (? Would that be some kind of review board or even trial? Also what would be the penalty if someone is ruled incapable of what you outlined? AS you worded it what should be the "impact to your your franchise as a citizen?"

George Rebane

PaulE 204pm - I've moved this thread to 'Equality Questioned'. Please post your comment there. Thanks.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/07/equality-questioned.html

Ben Emery

No Greg,
I have multiple close friends and relatives that work in ER's and have told me that no insurance means very little care, hospital policy. What do you think for profit hospitals are in the business for, good medical care? They are in the business of profits and bottom lines. We can thank former Senate Majority leader Frist's family for putting profits before patients. They weren't the first but they were one of the biggest.
http://www.laweekly.com/2003-01-16/news/the-bad-doctor/

That is funny I was going to give you the same link. I generally agree with if a person is terminal there is no need for expensive care but with a privatized for profit medical system that promotes it can fix anything with a pill human beings have much higher expectations than what is reasonable, as the article mentions. Once again this is a big picture issue, which in my opinion you have a hard time grasping.

-Direct to consumer advertising, privatized health care system
-a medicare system that has only the elderly enrolled and that pays private for profit doctors/ hospitals
- Medicare Part D forces US government to purchase US drugs only at retail costs
- doctors who own their own diagnostic centers as in Texas town McAllen prescribe twice as many tests and procedures, a very long article but worth the read
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all
-profit to be made off end of life because people are desperate as in any case of life or death circumstances. profit should not be an incentive when it comes to gauging others in a crisis.

It can go on and on about how private industry screws the public and government all the time making our health care system the most expensive on the planet at the same time having 50 million people uninsured.

Gregory

Ben, name the hospitals you're claiming an indigent patient suffering a heart attack will be left sitting in the waiting room while paying customers with minor lacerations go first.

Minimal care, sure, but your initial claim was that they will be ignored until all the folks with insurance get served.

End of life care is mostly because the families have a hard time letting go of grandma and grandpa when their time has come, and I'm speaking now as a grandpa.

Ben Emery

Greg,
I am not sure what hospital I was living over 3,000 miles away at the time. It depends where they were playing basketball. This happened about 14 years ago.

You gave two cases of famous people in foreign nations and speculated on their care and I have given you three personal experiences to say otherwise. I have many close relationships with people in the medical industry. I would give names and locations but I don't think they would approve of me using their names publicly in conversations about the industry from which they work.

But I will use Dr Linda Peeno MD testifying before congress about her experience in the health insurance industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoqpPwvUoP0

Ben Emery

Greg,
I can't let it go "name the hospitals you're claiming an indigent patient suffering a heart attack will be left sitting in the waiting room while paying customers with minor lacerations go first."

What makes you think my friend was indigent? He worked full time for a company that didn't have benefits and his pay wasn't enough to afford overpriced health care. Living in the Bay Area in the late 90's as is today extremely expensive especially to rent, I think it finished second only to NY City.

You're a real piece of work.

Gregory

"What makes you think my friend was indigent?"

If you're going to get huffy about the words I use, you should check to see what the words mean first. Consider this a lesson:

"Medically indigent adults "(MIAs)" in the health care system of the United States are persons who do not have health insurance and who are not eligible for other health care coverage, such as Medicaid, Medicare, or private health insurance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medically_indigent_adult

Capiche?

Ben Emery

Greg,
I am getting the feeling you are not believing my stories. Here is the only thing I could find online about my friend who died at the age of 30 because he didn't have health insurance. He was a real human being and a good friend.

http://www.death-record.com/d/n/Tuan-Su

Ben Emery

Greg,
I should have known you meant "medically indigent adult" and not logically and automatically use the traditional definition of the word indigent- Poor; needy.


stevenfrisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 13 July 2013 at 12:08 PM

George, I could name hundreds of things I don't want to pay for as a taxpayer, and if I refused I would face the barrel of a gun, just like you.

I don't want to pay for any more Abrams M1A1 tanks, at least for a while, or for replacements for the Ohio Class submarine, or the F35 JSF, or the nuclear weapons, or any subsidies for fossil fuels.

But alas, we live in a society, and as part of the social contract I have to pay for some things I don't want to. Want you are really objecting to is that government in general has the power to tax. Sorry, but we granted that right in the CONSTITUTION....once again, you call yourself a Constitutionalist?

George Rebane

stevenfrisch 747pm - Great reasoning.

The government's power to tax was never the question, just your misunderstanding. There comes a point when many Americans look at the federal budget and find that they are paying for more than "some things" they don't want. They find they are paying and going into debt for spending, most of what they don't want. And yes, those of us so persuaded definitely call ourselves constitutionalists.

stevenfrisch

There is not misunderstanding George; you stated, "we are forced to pay for things we inherently don't believe should be funded through collective force broadly applied." How do you differentiate between what you don't want to pay for through collective force (or taxation, thus it IS a question of taxation) and what I don't want to pay for through collective force? What makes your definition any more relevant than mine?

I think this is a perfect example of how you are actually NOT a 'constitutionalist' because you don't countenance what anyone else (or society at large) defines as constitutional.

Ben Emery

George,
Maybe there should be a priority list when we pay our taxes every year. My guess the military budget would be cut by 50%.

George Rebane

Stevenfrisch 847pm - I don't need to "differentiate" anything to state my preference which I am free to do. And there is no claim that my preferences are "more relevant" than yours. My attempt is only to convince my readers that the value system I espouse leads to a better future for all of us.

These are bankrupt notions you are dredging up and attributing wholesale to me and others like me. I believe you are again not contributing to this debate with such tactics.

stevenfrisch

Nonsense George. I don't understand why you would make a statement like the one above, then disavow it. You said the government is placing a gun to your head. However, I am not attributing anything to you that you are not saying pretty clearly. You are saying that our society should pay for the things you prefer it pay for and not pay for the things that others prefer. Coupled with your contention on another thread that only people who you deem contribute to society should have the power to vote, that is kind of the definition of elitism. You know, if you are going to be a crypto-fascist at least have the power of your convictions to stand by your beliefs.

Gregory

I think George is saying he has no regret paying Federal taxes that are used for the purposes of the enumerated powers in the Constitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_powers

Regarding Ben's problems with the word "indigent", it remains the old definition:

Indigent - (Noun)
phonetic : /ˈindijənt/
plural : indigents
1. A needy person

If you show up at the ER with a heart attack and have no ability to pay for the care you should be about to receive, you are *needy*. And, I might add, are in the right place. BTW, you can also have a job and apartment and there's also a special case for 'indigent' in court cases: "2) n. one without sufficient income to afford a lawyer for defense in a criminal case."

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Gregory | 14 July 2013 at 07:40 AM

Really Greg? I think George is on record as objecting to many of the purposes adjudicated over the last 223 years as falling under the General Welfare Clause, Commerce Clause and implicit privacy protections granted in the Constitution.

[To be clear, the points made in tis thread cannot be disconnected from the points being made in the 'Equality' thread.]

My only point is that as members of a society were are participants in a social contract whereby we grant certain rights to government over the rights of the individual in order to live in security and protect the other rights we have not ceded to government Our mechanism for doing this is the establishment of governments based on popular sovereignty, or consent of the governed, and that means all of the governed, not just some of the governed.

That means that whether George likes it or not, his rights are tied to the rights of every other member of society, and thus diminishing the rights of one member of the society inherently diminishes the rights of all members of the society. He is joined at the hip with socialists, collectivists, homosexuals, and immigrants. In the end his freedom will be determined by societies ability to guarantee the freedom of all of them.

This is not some radical theory, it is the founding political theory of the United States.

The point I am making is that George is on the slippery slope to despotism when he seeks to diminish the rights of one segment of society. All of our rights are tied together, and the extension of those rights is contextual, they have expanded as time has gone on. Turn back the clock and the rights unraveled eventually leave you naked.

Michael Anderson

Gregory wrote on July 12th at 4:12 PM:

"Paul, no new questions will be answered until you explain why you went all the way to NJ to pick on their Gov when Pelline is right in your backyard?"

This is mean-spirited, rude, and totally unnecessary. I think an apology to Jeff P. is in order, Greg.

http://www.alternet.org/culture/how-tell-if-someone-or-yourself-jerk?akid=10691.6940.z59bUe&rd=1&src=newsletter868356&t=21

Gregory

Both Jeff P. and Michael Anderson/mandersonation are way ahead in the rudeness category and way behind in the apology category. Take a flying leap, Mike. It was called for.

Here's just one example from the FUE, for exactly the same sort of lunacy your mandersonation persona was affected by when your online threats were a problem on TheUnion comments:
http://sierrafoothillsreport.com/2012/11/07/its-global-warming-stupid/

Paul went across the country to find a fat Republican to symbolize a poor diet... and right in town we have a guy who not only matches Christie in girth but makes a living selling glossy advertising for food and wine.

Michael Anderson

Greg, you owe Jeff Pelline an apology. It's just a simple fact.

But it is your decision and your choice. I still stand by my recommendation that it's the right thing for you to do.

Gregory

Mike, you owe me a number of apologies. It's a simple fact. But it is your decision and your choice.

You owe Juvinal a few, too.

Michael Anderson

How many apologies do I owe you, Greg? How many apologies do you owe to me? Let's come up with a number for each of those two categories, and to whomever is owed the most, let the apologizing begin.

Regarding Todd, we owe each other nothing. I would not accept his apologies, for he owes me none. I believe that he feels the same way.

Gregory

You're in no position to throw stones, Mike. In my case, my wife was literally in FEAR when you appeared to be a stalker who was issuing real threats (including posting my address (if I didn't stop calling you "Mike") and not just an online bully feeling his oats pushing a "denier" around.

You and Pelline are a pair.

Bill Tozer

Gregory | 14 July 2013 at 02:43 PM: Mr. Gregory, very good website you posted. I can see the jerk in myself and, of course, the jerk in others. The theme of "the last word" I found quite interesting. I especially enjoyed #9 (quick to mount their high horse and slow to dismount).

On sites where I have been banned for life (lol) I on rare occasions brought up some good counter arguments. Too good I reckon because the usual response was "nothing to see here, move on". Some would rather eat their young than admit they made a boo-boo or even outwardly admit they were flat wrong. The defense mechanism is a deep seated reflex.

The FUE has found a nice niche for himself and his wife has as well so I wish them well.

Wasn't it Pilate who responded to Jesus with the question "What is truth?"

Well, I know we all have good days and bad days. Sometimes I wake up grumpy and sometimes I let her sleep.

Gregory

Tozer, the bully categories link was posted by mandersonation, who is in a position to know.

Bill Tozer

My apologies Mr. Gregory about who posted the link. Nonetheless, it is a good site with funny information. Funny because it contains enough truth to ring a bell. Did not take it as bullies, just plain old human nature. If I thought it was directed at you, I would have remained silent. You always have good things to post and have the ability to shrink long winded large ideas into funneled nutshell focus.

I also liked the web site because it points out (by omission) that people just can't see their blind spots. We all have them, which are obvious to everyone but ourselves. Plain as the nose one's face. Unfortunately, people who point the index finger can't see that they have 3 other fingers pointing back. The one who actually posted the website is an example. Quite paradoxical.

Michael Anderson

Mr. Tozer, thanks for the chuckle. Sometimes I wake up Happy, but then that makes her unhappy so I've learned to let her wake up on her own. BTW, I'm quite comfortable regarding where my fingers point.

Apparently Greg's grokker was broken today. Instead of something with value, he once again posted his fever dream about an anonymous post he read on The Union that wasn't even addressed to him, grabbed his submissive second wife by the arm and made her read his stupid blog comments, and then said, "see, he's stalking you!!!, you need to exhibit some DEEP FEAR so I can have something to latch on to that will give my life meaning."

And here we are. Greg's pitiful lamentations of something, still not being addressed. So very sad.

I do think this might be a good opportunity to address, however, the number of apologies Greg owes to the blogging community, and to whom...I've been keeping track:

Jeff Pelline -- 22 apologies, 17 about weight and 5 about academics.

George Rebane -- 14 apologies, 8 for being a jerk on RR and 6 for calling George's intelligence into question.

Russ Steele -- 7 apologies, 5 for calling Russ' intelligence into question regarding AGW and 2 for unnecessary snarkiness regarding a side issue.

Bill Tozer -- 9 apologies, 6 for being too technical when that wasn't the discussion and 3 for clueless comments that I am sure hurt Bill's feelings (though he would never show it).

Dirt Mover -- 4 apologies, 3 for inappropriately traducing DM's chosen profession and 1 for criticizing his helmet.

Ben Emery -- 47 apologies, 32 for putting words in his mouth, 9 for being negative about Ben's academic efforts, and 6 for calling Ben a communist.

Steve Frisch -- 153 apologies, all of them for just being a general douche bag when it came to commenting on Mr. Frisch's business at SBC and Mr. Frisch himself.

Todd Juvinall -- 16 apologies, 14 for calling him "unbelievably stupid" and 2 for claiming that he was once in a violent motorcycle gang.

Paul Emery -- 94 apologies, all for stupid, irrelevant, non sequitur-ed, and arrogant comments regarding KVMR and Paul's oversight of their evening news program.

Douglas Keachie -- 15,691 apologies, all for unnecessary defamation and malice.

Scott Obermuller -- 3 apologies, 2 for questioning his religious beliefs and 1 for a pompous rejoinder that fell dead.

Michael Anderson -- I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Ryan Mount -- 37 apologies, 13 for incorrect technological citations, 17 for general unneeded grouchiness, and 7 for missing the point/changing the subject.

fish -- 8 apologies, all for assuming that he was an Exocoetus when he is actually a Cypselurus.

Holly A. Hermansen -- 169 apologies, all for lambasting the Nevada County educational system from the narrow viewpoint of his own progeny and not giving a rip about anyone else's kids.

I have more, but we'll leave it at that for today. Have a great summer everyone!! Love and peace, out...

Michael A.

Bill Tozer

My, what a long list. The only one of importance is criticizing Mr. Dirt Mover's helmet. Totally mind bending to dis such a fine helmet (to stay on topic).

Gregory

"Instead of something with value, he once again posted his fever dream about an anonymous post he read on The Union that wasn't even addressed to him"

What did that post say? In part,
“Let it be known that people like you pose the greatest danger to life on earth, and we are cataloging your behavior in real time. People like you–educated, but toadies for the evil life killers of the planet for whatever reason–are high on the target list.

Dumping carbon is evil, just like dumping sewage into a river is evil. If you can’t agree to that, we have a major problem.”


The "anonymous post" was signed mandersonation, a handle used only by Michael Anderson, and Michael Anderson has admitted to being the author. He later wrote to me regarding the post, "But you haven't let it go. I'm not sure why. I apologized to you in email."

What did the apology say?
"I regret that I posted an angry and reactive response, albeit an accurate one."

Michael, at least keep your story straight.

Gregory

And regarding Michael and his delusional list of my supposed transgressions, Ahab would understand the obsession he's showing.

Michael Anderson

Ahh, my good friend, Selective Story Greg.

Actually, I didn't apologize to you. I asked you to meet with me. You refused, which I have now learned was because you needed to not have a personal relationship with your own white whale. Whatever, sick dude.

The guy with the bunny ears? Falling out of trees? That's you, buddy. Get some help.

Michael Anderson

Yeah, just so we're clear: "I regret that I posted an angry and reactive response, albeit an accurate one."

Accurate, in that you are not a good person in your present form, and that people are keeping you at arms length legally, and that a dossier of your illegal behavior is being iterated daily.

Just the facts, ma'am. I hope your are feeding your lawyer with a high protein feed. My lawyer is pissed, he wants to eviscerate you 12 ways to Sunday, but I keep telling him "no."

Your fever dream continues, but like the guy in the tree, eventually it all comes tumbling down. Have a nice flight, sad-person-of-anger.

Michael Anderson

Regarding obsession, just so we're clear, this is about me taking on a public service job, eradicating a public nuisance. Let's call it a citizen's arrest.

"Scale of dragon; tooth of wolf;
Witches' mummy; maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark;
Root of hemlock digg'd i the dark;
Liver of blaspheming Jew;
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Sliver'd in the moon's eclipse;
Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips;
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,—
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingrediants of our caldron.
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good."


M.

Gregory

Thanks, Mike, I think you've done a fine job of establishing malice for your part.

Michael Anderson

No malice GG, just taking care of business. You remember business, right? When you had to deal with a supervisor, and there were stakeholders, and there were consequences for bad behavior? Do your remember those things? Just checking...

George Rebane

Gentlemen, I think this off topic exchange is boring RR readers to tears and has now come to an end.

Todd Juvinall

Hey Guys, I wasn't even in the argument. Darn it!

Gregory

"Regarding obsession, just so we're clear, this is about me taking on a public service job, eradicating a public nuisance."

Sounds a lot like the MSNBC caricatures of George Zimmerman, doesn't it?

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