George Rebane
Our long lament with America’s education systems continues. I was reminded of it again by a report on the entrepreneurial approach to teaching students that is rampant in South Korea. There kids go to school during the day, and at night after coming home they go back to school, alebeit of a different type. South Korean students are world class top performers (#2 after Shanghai), and are nudged into that status by parents who pay extra for extra tutoring for their little darlings.
South Korea is full of private tutoring academies (hagwons) run by entrepreneurs and master teachers. Because of that South Korea is a literate and numerate nation – 93% high school graduation rate, ours is 77% - this means their high schoolers can read and cypher, while a good half of ours fall short.
The hagwons are highly competitive, they advertise and publish their students’ test score averages and college admission rates. Private teachers are continually rated by their students whom they correctly treat as their customers. But even with higher ratings, most private teachers still strain to make as much as public school teachers, however many of them do make goodly fortunes. The outstanding teachers are treated as we would treat rock stars, using online technologies they know how to leverage their talents.
The country’s leading private teacher is Mr Kim Ki-Hoon who runs a 30 person teaching and publishing company. Most of Mr Kim’s lectures are delivered online, and he supplements these lectures with his own texts that he self-publishes. His personal income is about $4M annually. Neither Mr Kim nor his thousands of colleagues/competitors are certified by the state. The hagwons are run as a pure meritocracy in a free market with the non-performers being ruthlessly weeded out. (more here)
Our long lament with America’s education systems continues. I was reminded of it again by a report on the entrepreneurial approach to teaching students that is rampant in South Korea. There kids go to school during the day, and at night after coming home they go back to school, alebeit of a different type. South Korean students are world class top performers (#2 after Shanghai), and are nudged into that status by parents who pay extra for extra tutoring for their little darlings.
The hagwons are highly competitive, they advertise and publish their students’ test score averages and college admission rates. Private teachers are continually rated by their students whom they correctly treat as their customers. But even with higher ratings, most private teachers still strain to make as much as public school teachers, however many of them do make goodly fortunes. The outstanding teachers are treated as we would treat rock stars, using online technologies they know how to leverage their talents.
The country’s leading private teacher is Mr Kim Ki-Hoon who runs a 30 person teaching and publishing company. Most of Mr Kim’s lectures are delivered online, and he supplements these lectures with his own texts that he self-publishes. His personal income is about $4M annually. Neither Mr Kim nor his thousands of colleagues/competitors are certified by the state. The hagwons are run as a pure meritocracy in a free market with the non-performers being ruthlessly weeded out. (more here)
Our pedagogical entrepreneurs have been keeping an eye on South Korea, and we are beginning to see more private tutoring services open up in local strip malls, especially in California (where we need it most). In the competitive global job markets readers know that the STEM capable students and graduates are the most in demand. But in that department we still have a long way to go to catch up with South Korea. For example 47% of South Korea’s eight graders ranked ‘advanced in mathematics’ compared to 7% of ours. In ‘advanced science’ we fared better, 20% of South Korea’s eight graders qualified compared to 10% of ours.
It should be obvious to the casual reader that such performance differentials in a population will result in highly uneven distributions of income and accumulated wealth. And the more our socialist cadres in government seek to stifle that result, the fewer competitive workers the country will produce. We are already behind the power curve in educated workers as I have been reporting over the life of RR. It is time to turn our educational systems loose from the cold hand of central government.
Were I king, control of K-12 education would revert to local school boards supported by local taxes that would be augmented by state funds on a per student basis. The Dept of Education would become toast and tossed into the dustbin of history. The states would enforce quality control through its own testing program (whether bought from a central test maker like The College Board, or home brewed), and providing a statewide comparative rating service that incorporates student and parent feedback. Private and charter schools would be deregulated, and all schools would be able to develop/adopt their own curricula. Private tutorial services would be operated as simple fee-for-service businesses under minimal oversight that primarily involved sunshine codes under which such services would be required to publish their aggregate scholastic performance statistics. Anyone could post online tutorials and charge for their access. Teachers unions would be banned along with the concept of tenure. Parents could send their kids to any school for which they qualify.
Post-secondary education needs total reform so that their massive bureaucracies can be relegated to repositories in where society stores the hind tits of boar hogs. Restructuring the entire teaching organization to run on the basis of meritocracy as determined by student performance and feedback. Incorporate a massive infusion of online instruction delivery as are already implemented through MOOCs. Added to the well-known degree programs would be uncounted levels of certification in the various skill sets required by employers. Such certifications would necessarily be dynamic to keep up with accelerating technologies in the job markets. Again, private tutors and tutorial services would be operated as described above. And again, there would be no federal involvement in these state-run higher education systems. The federal influence would only be felt through the funding of research programs that involves a competitive process among the colleges, universities, and trade schools. No unions. Tenure offered on a per institution basis.
[4aug13 update] In America we are having what can arguably be called a 'higher education bubble'. While that may sound good in light of the educational standing of our workforce, it really isn't because the bubble is misguided. Russ Steele has commented on this below; he also sent me an email that expands on the notion of "alternatives to costly degrees" much discussed on RR. The email follows -
HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE: The Rise Of Competency Testing.
Testing firms are offering new ways to measure what students learn in college. Their next generation of assessments is billed as an add-on – rather than a replacement – to the college degree. But the tests also give graduates something besides a transcript to send to a potential employer.
As a result, skills assessments are related to potential higher education “disruptions” like competency-based education or even digital badging. They offer portable ways for students to show what they know and what they can do. And in this case, they’re verified by testing giants.
More significantly, they mean that someone other than the degree-granting institution is certifying competence. Institutions have incentive to be lax regarding their students; external certifiers not so much. Then, at some point, people might start asking why you need the degree, when you’ve got the certification.
[7aug13 update] From the Mercatus Center we get the latest stark picture of Obamunism is full stride. This has to be understood in terms of thousands of more Americans leaving the nation’s workforce every month. Meanwhile the shills in Washington crow that they have “created 7 million new jobs” since the spring of 2009. They have done nothing of the kind when we consider the millions of jobs that they have prevented from being created during such a recovery.
And on the education front Obamunism with the help of the teachers unions have taken the appropriate steps to insure that minority blacks and Hispanics are kept in their place as ignorant and compliant voters. Professor Paul Peterson of Harvard reports in ‘The Obama Setback for Minority Education’ that under Obama’s gutting of No Child Left Behind, those he promised to help have taken a significant backward step in their abilities to read and cypher, especially in closing the gap with whites. But again, dear reader, as Occam advised, all this has been easily predictable and explained away by Obama’s promise to fundamentally transform America into global peerage. More devastation to come.
It should be obvious to the casual reader that such performance differentials in a population will result in highly uneven distributions of income and accumulated wealth. And the more our socialist cadres in government seek to stifle that result, the fewer competitive workers the country will produce. We are already behind the power curve in educated workers as I have been reporting over the life of RR. It is time to turn our educational systems loose from the cold hand of central government.
Were I king, control of K-12 education would revert to local school boards supported by local taxes that would be augmented by state funds on a per student basis. The Dept of Education would become toast and tossed into the dustbin of history. The states would enforce quality control through its own testing program (whether bought from a central test maker like The College Board, or home brewed), and providing a statewide comparative rating service that incorporates student and parent feedback. Private and charter schools would be deregulated, and all schools would be able to develop/adopt their own curricula. Private tutorial services would be operated as simple fee-for-service businesses under minimal oversight that primarily involved sunshine codes under which such services would be required to publish their aggregate scholastic performance statistics. Anyone could post online tutorials and charge for their access. Teachers unions would be banned along with the concept of tenure. Parents could send their kids to any school for which they qualify.
Post-secondary education needs total reform so that their massive bureaucracies can be relegated to repositories in where society stores the hind tits of boar hogs. Restructuring the entire teaching organization to run on the basis of meritocracy as determined by student performance and feedback. Incorporate a massive infusion of online instruction delivery as are already implemented through MOOCs. Added to the well-known degree programs would be uncounted levels of certification in the various skill sets required by employers. Such certifications would necessarily be dynamic to keep up with accelerating technologies in the job markets. Again, private tutors and tutorial services would be operated as described above. And again, there would be no federal involvement in these state-run higher education systems. The federal influence would only be felt through the funding of research programs that involves a competitive process among the colleges, universities, and trade schools. No unions. Tenure offered on a per institution basis.
[4aug13 update] In America we are having what can arguably be called a 'higher education bubble'. While that may sound good in light of the educational standing of our workforce, it really isn't because the bubble is misguided. Russ Steele has commented on this below; he also sent me an email that expands on the notion of "alternatives to costly degrees" much discussed on RR. The email follows -
HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE: The Rise Of Competency Testing.
Testing firms are offering new ways to measure what students learn in college. Their next generation of assessments is billed as an add-on – rather than a replacement – to the college degree. But the tests also give graduates something besides a transcript to send to a potential employer.
As a result, skills assessments are related to potential higher education “disruptions” like competency-based education or even digital badging. They offer portable ways for students to show what they know and what they can do. And in this case, they’re verified by testing giants.
More significantly, they mean that someone other than the degree-granting institution is certifying competence. Institutions have incentive to be lax regarding their students; external certifiers not so much. Then, at some point, people might start asking why you need the degree, when you’ve got the certification.
[7aug13 update] From the Mercatus Center we get the latest stark picture of Obamunism is full stride. This has to be understood in terms of thousands of more Americans leaving the nation’s workforce every month. Meanwhile the shills in Washington crow that they have “created 7 million new jobs” since the spring of 2009. They have done nothing of the kind when we consider the millions of jobs that they have prevented from being created during such a recovery.
And on the education front Obamunism with the help of the teachers unions have taken the appropriate steps to insure that minority blacks and Hispanics are kept in their place as ignorant and compliant voters. Professor Paul Peterson of Harvard reports in ‘The Obama Setback for Minority Education’ that under Obama’s gutting of No Child Left Behind, those he promised to help have taken a significant backward step in their abilities to read and cypher, especially in closing the gap with whites. But again, dear reader, as Occam advised, all this has been easily predictable and explained away by Obama’s promise to fundamentally transform America into global peerage. More devastation to come.
For more insight to the issues I recommend readers check out Glenn Reynolds book "The Higher Education Bubble"
America is facing a higher education bubble. Like the housing bubble, it is the product of cheap credit coupled with popular expectations of ever-increasing returns on investment, and as with housing prices, the cheap credit has caused college tuitions to vastly outpace inflation and family incomes. Now this bubble is bursting.
In this Broadside, Glenn Harlan Reynolds explains the causes and effects of this bubble and the steps colleges and universities must take to ensure their survival. Many graduates are unable to secure employment sufficient to pay off their loans, which are usually not dischargeable in bankruptcy. As students become less willing to incur debt for education, colleges and universities will have to adapt to a new world of cost pressures and declining public support.
It is available on Amazon, Kindle Edition for hunder $5.00.
Posted by: Russ Steele | 04 August 2013 at 08:06 AM
What is now called K-16 needs reforming from bottom to top. Kids aren't graduating from high school, and the kids that do graduate from high school unprepared for college level work, largely because they're promoted out of elementary school without grade level proficiency in math, language and science. And all too often in the USA K-6 teachers are the ones who had to go to a cram school to pass the CBEST, a hurdle that a bright 6th grader could clear, and an average 8th grader should clear, without too much difficulty: this after 13 years in K-12, 4 years in college and a year for their teaching credential(s).
If you want to improve education, require a 900 SAT math plus verbal minimum for any teaching credential, and make it retroactive. That's a full 100 points below the average for college bound high schoolers.
William Bennett is holding up an interesting metric, a measure of the return on investment for colleges and universities, comparing the cost of attending and the earnings of graduates. That may be one way to go that doesn't require an exhaustive system that isn't in place and probably never will be.
Regarding the ratings of teachers, with reasonable standardized testing in place there are statistical techniques (google "value added teacher evaluations") to identify which teachers are likely imparting more than a grade level's knowledge in a year, and which are imparting far less than a year's progress. The first group needs recognition and other rewards, the second needs remediation and, when that doesn't work, a bit of outplacement assistance so they don't go away too mad.
Posted by: Gregory | 04 August 2013 at 09:29 AM
State Senator Joel Johnson sent this Salary Surfer in an e-mail the other day and it was intereting to see the degree vs certificate salary differences.
http://salarysurfer.cccco.edu/Salaries.aspx
Check out the disparity, in some limited cases certificated engineers at the 5 year point are making more than the degreed engineers. Having a low cost certificate rather than huge college loans for an engineering degree to pay off may make more economic sense in the long run. Check out some of the other career areas your children and grand children are interested in. They may want to change course, or find supporting information for their choices. Interesting tool.
Posted by: Russ Steele | 04 August 2013 at 10:01 AM
Even the Emergency Fiscal Manager of Detroit said the way out of the Motor City's financial straights is an educated SKILLED workforce, which Detroit does not way by any stretch of the imagination. Which is why they appointed another Emergency Education Manager.
Being liberal means never having to say your sorry.
Sure glad Obama always has put education as a top priority. Seriously. Many speeches I agreed with when he was Candidate Senator Barrack Obama. What ever happened to all his speeches about "if we have bad teachers, fire them. Get them out of the classroom" Guess he got squashed by the same juggernaut of progressive-ism and unions that anybody trying to do something about our dismal piss poor public education system faces. Even the parents, until folks like me pulls the kid out and tells them "no use kicking a dead horse".
Its not like parents and residents are not paying their fair share. It is more like a rigid refusal by the status quo to admit the customers (students, parents, and the nation) are getting the short end of the stick. Akin to one big ugly ogre that will not go softy into the still quiet night.
You would not believe how many private teaching job offers overseas my one daughter has received in the last 10 months. Heck, any English US kid can now go to Thailand or Ecuador or Uruguay or just about anywhere and teach kids whose parents care deeply about their child's education and competing in the international language of commerce, aka, English. Yes, they do care deeply. And you don't even need a friggin CA teaching credential. A certified license to teach nowadays is almost a hindrance to education.
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 04 August 2013 at 11:59 AM
Ok, I will stop throwing educators under the bus. Why? Cause I see a bigger societal issue here. How can we teach kids that are sitting in the classroom stoned out of their minds? How can be create an learning environment when our fine young pupils get away with doing what they want, when they want at home? Kid tells his Mom to take a flying leap and we except that young future member of the generation running the country to show respect for his/her teacher??? Yes, this ain't Ozzie and Harriet's era.
Mr. D Keachie was correct when he brought up these points.
A moment to digress. I have not watched TV or Fox News since last December or any boob tube for that matter since. However, from all the literature and publications I have read over the last 20 or more years, this family unit theme keeps coming back to my mind. Therefore I was quite pleased to see that Juan Williams whom I have always respected (but not always agreed with) has been on the same page as I have without even knowing it.
Years ago when the girls were just toddlers I walked them to a park. A little boy about their age asked them where they lived. Then he asked me where I lived. When I told him that I lived in the same abode as the girls, he looked quite puzzled. Very confused would be a more accurate description. After a long pause he looked at me and said "My Daddy lives in Texas. Will you be my Daddy?"
Here is an EDITORIAL piece from Mr. Juan Williams from the dreaded Fox News on-line. Yes, Fox and its an editorial. Got that? An opinion piece. It speaks on a change we need in America THAT is necessary to facilitate education reform and the direction of our communities. God Bless Juan Williams.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/24/president-obama-oreilly-and-trayvon-cry-for-help/
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 04 August 2013 at 07:21 PM
BillT 721pm - We see Juan Williams almost nightly. He's a good man, though often misguided and, as here along with O'Reilly, late with his exhortations. The stats and solutions have been known for years, and calling out Barack Obama to take the lead in this is at least five years late. Besides Obama isn't going to do squat on this because he considers the blacks already in the bag for any Obamination he wants to visit on the country. He also has only 24hrs/day, and there are more important fish to fry. Bottom line, the black leadership in this country cannot afford to have the black family unit reemerge.
Posted by: George Rebane | 04 August 2013 at 08:48 PM
Dr. Rebane, if true it is a most sad state of affairs. I guess I am naive, thinking that since our President ain't running for re-election, he would return to his pre-presidency themes. After all, Harry Reid called him an articulate Negro back then.
Guess he is more interested in street cred than helping lift a community out of the bottom tier and fill them with the hope of achieving whatever they dream of. New immigrants have that hope and that is why Jamaicans and other immigrants see things so differently than Blacks born Americans. And quickly rise thru the ranks and do better in school and business. Perhaps, even more sadly, you are correct as usual. Its people like our Native American Senator from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts that spout at every opportunity the game is rigged. Well, if the game is rigged you seemed to beat the odds.
Perhaps the bigger theme of fundamentally changing America as we know it does not include the ones he pretends to offer change and hope to. After all, its the middle class that he is really after. That is were the action is and his roots are.
5 years of inaction of this topic speaks volumes. Street Cred rhetoric and Country Club jet setter actions. He has done good for himself. Still, it is an issue I can't shake.
10 times the murder rate committed by blacks than whites and Hispanics combined? And his wife (The First Lady) calls the shooters adolescences, children? And our President does not address this? 3 out of 4 babies born out of wedlock? He is a father of 2 nice young girls. And apparently a good Daddy. He should be the role model on this non political issue.
Maybe he will end up as one article about Detroit pointed out "(The Black political leadership) would rather be king of nothing than part of something. Sad, sad day for me. And we want to address education reform? Like putting the cart before the horse. Guaranteed to widen the Great Divide.
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 04 August 2013 at 09:36 PM
When public schools cannot stand being exposed for their incompetence they strike back. The City Journal has the details in Ben Chavis’s Last Stand
Oakland educrats try to kill a phenomenally successful charter school system.
By every measure, the American Indian Model Schools (AIMS), a charter school system based in Oakland, California, puts that embattled city’s traditional public schools to shame. One of AIMS’s three campuses, the American Indian Public Charter School (AIPCS), ranked fifth last year among the state’s middle schools in the Academic Performance Index, California’s instrument for assessing its public schools. The American Indian Public Charter School II, which serves 650 students from kindergarten through eighth grade, ranked first in the district and fourth in the state. U.S. News and World Report placed the system’s third campus, the American Indian Public High School, 38th on its list of the best high schools in America. In the state’s English language arts tests, 87 percent of AIMS students score as “proficient” or “advanced,” compared with 47 percent district-wide. In math, the breakdown is 88 percent for AIMS versus 46 percent for the district; in history and social science, it’s 98 percent versus 31 percent. Oh, and AIMS accomplishes all that while spending roughly half the amount of money per pupil that the district does.
And yet, barring some last-minute intervention by California’s State Board of Education, all three schools could be shut down by the end of the 2013–14 school year and their students scattered to inferior neighborhood schools across the city. In March, Oakland Unified School District (OUSD) officials decided to revoke AIMS’s charters, claiming that its former director, Ben Chavis, had “repeatedly broken the law, engaging in financial mismanagement, and violated the terms of its charter.” What’s more, the district said, “when provided numerous opportunities to reform its practices, AIMS’s [new management] failed to make changes that would address these issues and protect public funds.” Despite a new state law requiring district officials to make students’ academic performance and improvement the “paramount consideration” in deciding whether to revoke school charters, the district claimed that AIMS’s sins were simply too severe—and that Chavis’s influence remained too great—for it to remain open. On June 24, the Alameda County Board of Education voted to uphold the OUSD decision. (An Alameda County superior court judge ruled on July 8 that the schools may remain open while their appeal to the state is pending.)
Full details are HERE.
Posted by: Russ Steele | 05 August 2013 at 06:28 AM
Russ, I finally had the time to evaluate your claim (04 August 2013 at 10:01 AM) that certification can be more valuable than a degree.
You might want to revise your remarks... the "degreed engineers" in this case had 2 year Associate degrees, not a Baccalaureate, and the salaries listed look like that is the case. In short, technicians, not engineers.
The site is hosted by a community college.
Posted by: Gregory | 05 August 2013 at 08:26 PM
Gregory,
Thanks for the insight. I did not spend that much time on the site. I was just looking at the chart, and found it interesting that a student could make some career choices based on potential salary and educational cost.
Posted by: Russ Steele | 05 August 2013 at 08:53 PM
Many erroneous assertions in this blog. First and foremost is we are not Korea, a totally different culture where the homogenous population actually respects education, learning and teachers.
No solutions; just more teacher bashing and union bashing and handing teaching over to profiteers. I guess feudalism is in your blood.
Posted by: Ed Peritz | 05 August 2013 at 08:59 PM
Ah, the status quo speaks. Nothing to see here, more on. Perhaps the solution is more money for teachers and don't mess with their cheese. Calibunga Buckwheat!
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 05 August 2013 at 09:36 PM
EdP 859pm - Is this a drive-by callous comment? What are the "erroneous assertions", or is 'assertion' used correctly. Mr Peritz needs to explain himself if there is anything to explain.
Posted by: George Rebane | 05 August 2013 at 09:57 PM
"In the state’s English language arts tests, 87 percent of AIMS students score as “proficient” or “advanced,” compared with 47 percent district-wide."
8th graders in the vaunted Grass Valley Charter only managed 64% proficient and above.
"In math, the breakdown is 88 percent for AIMS versus 46 percent for the district"
The Grass Valley Charter doesn't show enough of any one 8th grade math test to report, but for the 7th graders, only 34% were proficient or above.
"in history and social science, it’s 98 percent versus 31 percent."
In history and social science, the Grass Valley Charter 8th graders scored (drum roll, please) only 36% at proficient or advanced, beating the Oakland School district average.
Do we have any parents of Grass Valley Charter here who'd like to rave about the quality of the school they've sent their kids to?
Posted by: Gregory | 05 August 2013 at 11:56 PM
Glenn Reynolds has a USA Today Column today on assessing if college is worth the cost. Below are the conclusions:
Instead, if you're a prospective student -- or parent of a prospective student -- starting to look at colleges, think long and hard about why you want to go to college and what you want to get out of it. For some people, college is the right answer, but not for everyone. And "go to the fanciest place you can get into" is often bad advice. So is going to college just because everyone else is.
In their recent book, Academically Adrift, Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa note that many students show little actual learning in college. Some students -- especially those from poor and minority households -- actually come out of college doing worse on assessment tests than when they went in. (Perhaps that's the impact of the "party pathway" again.) Success in college depends on a lot of skills and qualities that not everyone has, and especially that not everyone has at age 18.
Of course, even a mediocre college degree is a credential, but it's an expensive one in time and money. In the future, college degrees may be replaced -- at least partly -- by independent third-party assessments of skills and knowledge.
Unlike colleges, these third-party outfits are less likely to favor grade inflation. But in the meantime, the most important assessment is self-assessment. Think about what's right for you, and think about the downsides, as well as the upsides of college, before investing tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars, and four (or more) years of your life. It's not for everyone.
More HERE: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/08/05/college-students-loans-debt-column/2616761/
Posted by: Russ Steele | 06 August 2013 at 07:16 AM
Many erroneous assertions in this blog. First and foremost is we are not Korea, a totally different culture where the homogenous population actually respects education, learning and teachers.
Did I miss something? George did you assert that we are Korea?
Posted by: fish | 06 August 2013 at 08:00 AM
Question. Was that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (benevolently nurtured by the Great Father in Pyongyang) or that other Korea to the south that was referenced in Dr. Rebane's post?
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 06 August 2013 at 08:24 AM
fish 800am - Apparently you and Mr Tozer also picked up on that mythical "assertion". No, Mr Peritz's 859pm is only an illustration of the man's acumen in these matters. A reader emailed me this comment Mr Peritz posted on FUE's blog with which he confirms that there he would be in a more suitable environment. Mr Peritz wrote -
I only logged on — cuz I slept most of afternoon and still feel like I have a red wine hangover though I’ve had nada to drink in many years — to perhaps respond to RR’s sophomoric blog today on education. Just proves once again that having a PhD in a science doesn’t mean you know didlley about other disciplines.
One is reminded of a 2x4 with a face painted on it. Who says that blogging doesn't have an element of humor now and then to lighten the day. Nevertheless, we trust that his future visits here will be infrequent and less embarrassing.
Posted by: George Rebane | 06 August 2013 at 08:56 AM
George, Ed Peritz comes to my blog and tells me how stupid I am all the time. He has no solutions. He claims to be a vet and disabled so perhaps his condition is affecting his judgement.
Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 06 August 2013 at 09:55 AM
Just tried to post my reply, but computer said I needed to refresh. So I did and in so doing the post disappeared. I won't try to recreate it, now seeing your and Todd's comments.
FYI,George Rebane, I stand by what I said, knew I was jumping into a snake pit when I posted here, and 'the red wine hangover' is a result of comorbidities; leukemia and a rare form of pulmonary fibrosis. I didn't embarrass myself in the eyes of people whom actually know something about educating a class of 30 - 35 kids of diverse backgrounds and English speaking/reading ability. Todd, you never support any of your claims. and remain the poster child for those who don't value 'facts', don't believe in the Enlightenment, probably because of its 'irreducible complexity.'
Posted by: Ed Peritz | 06 August 2013 at 10:32 AM
....knew I was jumping into a snake pit when I posted here, and 'the red wine hangover' is a result of comorbidities; leukemia and a rare form of pulmonary fibrosis.
While I dispute the "snake pit" reference I do hope you are feeling better. That is a whole box full of suck!
Posted by: fish | 06 August 2013 at 10:37 AM
"Just proves once again that having a PhD in a science doesn’t mean you know didlley about other disciplines."
Most BS, MS and PhD's in math, science and engineering who I know and know of are very well rounded compared to the average undergrad or nevergrad. The science understanding is added, not subtracted, to one's experience in the real world.
The Peritz's and FUE's of the world hold onto a Poindexter, "Man in the White Coat" stereotype to justify being happy or even proud of being blissfully ignorant of anything past grade school math and science understandings.
Posted by: Gregory | 06 August 2013 at 10:37 AM
I usually disregard Ed Peritz' slights since I probably do know more about the topics than he. But I do have sympathy for his condition.
Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 06 August 2013 at 11:40 AM
Don't lie Todd.
Gregory I was wrong about you; you know nothing about me save the short blurb I posted. Maybe you are blissfully ignorant.
Fish, if what I wrote is a whole box of suck, why don't you teach in Santa Ana and handle 'street kids?"
Last post; wallow in your mean-spirited, anti-factual world, you deserve each other.
Posted by: Ed Peritz | 06 August 2013 at 12:28 PM
Goodbye Ed.
I doubt your intellectual contributions will be missed, but the mirth you bring us with some of your posts maybe missed.
Posted by: Russ Steele | 06 August 2013 at 12:47 PM
On privatizing education-- If you think the teachers are bad now, just wait until the lower paid with little or no benefits private sector teachers come into play. It will be like the difference between trained police officers and mall security. Look at the record for private prisons versus gov't. funded ones in terms of conditions, riots, and quality of staff.
Posted by: Joe Koyote | 06 August 2013 at 12:48 PM
"I didn't embarrass myself in the eyes of people whom actually know something about educating a class of 30 - 35 kids of diverse backgrounds and English speaking/reading ability."
To speak plainly, yes, you did. The folks who "actually know something about educating a class" of brown and browner kids with lower to lowest working class parents and iffy language skills, don't go to failing schools like one might find in Oakland, go to California public schools with the kids most schools give up on who actually outperform the schools run by the crazy ass crackas in Nevada and Placer counties. I'd suggest Bennett-Kew in Inglewood, whose former principal, Nancy Ichinaga, believed that poor kids were as capable of learning as wealthy kids and figured out how to do it.
Hint, she didn't retain young, idealistic teachers from the likes of UCLA who believed the little dears just couldn't learn because of past racial discrimination. She hired teachers who believed they could learn like their wealthier peers. As was written in an LA free rag, Nancy Ichinaga "dragged Bennett-Kew Elementary School in Inglewood up from the virtual bottom, where it festered at the third percentile out of 100. She raised her mostly minority and poor students’ test scores to the 78th percentile — a level generally seen only in wealthy schools...
When Ichinaga walked into Bennett-Kew Elementary in 1974, it was filled with illiterate children.
“It either meant that all the kids were retarded, or something else was wrong,” says the plainspoken Ichinaga. So she challenged her teachers to take on a strict and rigorous curriculum. It took only a year, she says — not several years — to teach students to read. No fads, no nonsense, zip, zero."
In short, nothing like the "Common Core" so-called State Standards that none of the states actually had a role in developing.
The middle school class of east of LA kids that I taught algebra to circa '75-'76 were a diverse lot. The most advanced and the youngest was a 5th grade girl born in China who never stopped working. The rest of the class was a mix of latinos, anglos/celtics/germanics/slavics and Ashkenazim, a 4-7 middle school named after the Principal who ran the place as a K-6 when I was a student there.
Posted by: Gregory | 06 August 2013 at 01:01 PM
Fish, if what I wrote is a whole box of suck, why don't you teach in Santa Ana and handle 'street kids?"
For an educator you could use work on your reading comprehension.
While I dispute the "snake pit" reference I do hope you are feeling better. That is a whole box full of suck!
You complain about the "snake pit"...I dispute that it is such. I wish you improvement and acknowledge that you have a lot to contend with physically!
See....it's not that hard when you just slow down a bit!
Posted by: fish | 06 August 2013 at 01:11 PM
On privatizing education-- If you think the teachers are bad now, just wait until the lower paid with little or no benefits private sector teachers come into play. It will be like the difference between trained police officers and mall security. Look at the record for private prisons versus gov't. funded ones in terms of conditions, riots, and quality of staff.
Yep...you're far more likely to be shot, with that cop getting a month long paid vacation, followed by reinstatement by a "trained police officer" than by Paul Blart - Mall Cop.
Oh and Joe....you are correct...the penal institutions run by the "state" are a veritable paradise. Nothing bad ever happens in there!
Posted by: fish | 06 August 2013 at 01:24 PM
"Gregory I was wrong about you; you know nothing about me save the short blurb I posted. Maybe you are blissfully ignorant."
Ed, you've posted elsewhere and plainly stated you're not a scientist. I believed you. From NYC (Port Chester, maybe?), a Vietnam era Marine (thank you for your service, were I a couple years older I'd have been drafted or, like a friend who pulled #1 in the lottery, perhaps ROTC in order to at least graduate first). You went to college, where and what you studied I don't have a clue though I'd suspect history or sociology based on style. Not math, physics, chemistry, biology or engineering.
Posted by: Gregory | 06 August 2013 at 01:36 PM
Good to see Todd and Mr. Anderson reappeared at the same time. How was the camping trip?, haha.
All I can say to Mr. Gregory's posts is he gave examples, not excuses, that it can be done in our inner cities and predominately minority communities. Inglewood of all places. I love the motto "what one man can do, another man can do." Go that from a movie about guys surviving being hunted down and ate up by a Klondike in Alaska. Go Inglewood. Go Native American schools in Oakland. Oakland? Go East LA!!! Don't miss any of those places one bit.
What Mr. Peritz and some others miss is that teacher bashing is not bashing teachers solely as appears on the surface. Their hands are tied.
It is bashing a system that produces inadequate teachers, thus poor learning performance by the students, who then become poor teachers and the vicious self perpetuating cycle continues its downward spiral. At what point do we cry "Try something new! We keep doing what we are doing and keep getting what we are getting."
Or as some put it, it is the very definition of insanity.
If one school or district can turn things around, another can. If you want to make a million dollars, don't waste your time with someone who knows only how to make a half million. The cause is not hopeless unless we continue to close our minds to what is working and what is not. Got expired milk in the fridge? Toss it out and get some fresh milk. Simple but not easy considering the institutional nature of public education. And the institutionalized mentality of our teachers.
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 06 August 2013 at 02:10 PM
fish 1:24 -- you apparently missed the point of my post. Where in it did I state that " penal institutions run by the "state" are a veritable paradise." uhh.. no where. Where did I talk about the likelihood of being shot (particularly if I am white) by a cop public or private? Uhh.. no where.. Try again.
Posted by: Joe Koyote | 06 August 2013 at 05:56 PM
On privatizing education-- If you think the teachers are bad now, just wait until the lower paid with little or no benefits private sector teachers come into play. It will be like the difference between trained police officers and mall security. Look at the record for private prisons versus gov't. funded ones in terms of conditions, riots, and quality of staff.
"If you think the teachers are bad now, just wait until lower paid with little or no benefits private sector teachers come into play."
It may take wresting the NEA's death grip on the taxpayer to improve things but that time is coming. We'll see if competition and local control sans "Dept of Poor Education" diktats improve matters! Your mere assertion that what we have now in its current form is a superior model is insufficient to make your point. I have no problems with teachers....I'm less than thrilled with the indoctrination that masquerades as education pushed from on high. Enjoy your "Common Core"!
It will be like the difference between trained police officers and mall security. Look at the record for private prisons versus gov't. funded ones in terms of conditions, riots, and quality of staff.
You attempt to draw the distinction between the "professionalism" (Thanks loads Antonin) of "trained police" and private security and you do it badly in support of an already weak argument. Then you try and staple a private vs. state run prisons argument on top of that.
Sorry Joe C-/D+ work! Go back and compose your thoughts and return when you are better prepared.
Posted by: fish | 06 August 2013 at 06:52 PM
excellent update to the update, Dr. Rebane. No Child Left Behind is being gutted because so many failing the children schools do not want to be classified as a failing school (educational wise). The teachers are scared shitless that they will be held accountable. That would mean no more rubber stamp excellent reviews. The standards mean that some schools need help and some teachers,to quote our current President, "would be better suited in another line of employment." Holding up the entire public education system to uniform standards is not fair. "We have excuses, its not our fault." Yeah, right.
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 07 August 2013 at 10:35 PM
looking ahead:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/land-job-six-college-courses-110000634.html
Posted by: Bill Tozer | 13 August 2013 at 09:20 AM